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Hostile Mergers is over, where are the Disruption reward changes?


Kimimoto
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This gamemode basically became obsolete after the clan event, and honestly was obsolete during the event once you did your one run. 

The biggest problem with Disruption is there's absolutely zero reason to play it, and honestly all the endgame modes you've made so far including Kuva Survival are this way. They're all in pieces, some of the pieces have real potential, but none of them are whole. Can we get one working please? You guys keep saying "yes endgame, were into it", well... can you follow up on that?

Each of these modes NEEDs 

A. A reason to stay: Disruption has preformance effect rotation reward, Arbitrations has ABCCCC, ESO and Kuva Survival have nothing.

B. Challenge: Disruption and Arbitrations do this the best, ESO and Kuva Survival give no reason to get to the challenge. 

C. Rewards: Zero and I mean absolutely zero of the gamemodes have this. The closest is Arbitration's, but they don't give enough endo. You can get more on Vodyanoi, which defeats the purpose of Arbitrations. Relics aren't a reward. Anyone who's asking for endgame has thousands of relics, and has probably figured out how to prepare for prime access so they can farm everything day one. 

 

I get that you guys are working on stuff for Tennocon, but honestly, I highly doubt any of the content revealed at Tennocon is going to have any sustainability. It's going to be like the past 2-3 years, open world drops, not worth playing within a week. The content that's going to be revealed at Tennocon isn't going to increase player retention. It will bring in a burst of players who will promptly leave, because there's nothing past that update.

Also you may think this OP doesn't provide any solutions. It doesn't really need to, DE can see the solutions on their side. They know Kuva, Endo, Credits, Rivens, Forma, Catalysts, Reactors, Tradable Scenes/Weapons/Mods are worth farming for. It's not hard to make rewards for these game modes, they just need to be better than sitting in an Arena gamemode from 2 years ago, that takes ZERO effort and isn't fun.

Edited by Kimimoto
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11 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

I get that you guys are working on stuff for Tennocon, but honestly, I highly doubt any of the content revealed at Tennocon is going to have any sustainability. It's going to be like the past 2-3 years, open world drops, not worth playing within a week. The content that's going to be revealed at Tennocon isn't going to increase player retention. It will bring in a burst of players who will promptly leave, because there's nothing past that update.

it's basically this. everything is on hold because of 1 hour of showcase which doesn't really do anything instead of 'hey, look we did a cool thing!' and give them more media coverage. after a few years it's ok, but now you start to wonder if this is ok to put the whole game on hold for 

more on disruption: the gamemode is set on jupiter, which is a mid-level planet that should have mid-level rewards, this is what could kill this mode reward-wise. since DE doesn't do 'different nodes on plants can have different difficulty levels', I don't see the rewards changing for what we expect anytime soon

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15 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

it's basically this. everything is on hold because of 1 hour of showcase which doesn't really do anything instead of 'hey, look we did a cool thing!' and give them more media coverage. after a few years it's ok, but now you start to wonder if this is ok to put the whole game on hold for 

Considering it ups their playerbase as much as an update - yes, financially speaking.

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58 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

It will bring in a burst of players who will promptly leave, because there's nothing past that update.

Except the entire game that came before that update. Those that like the game will stay, those that don't will leave.

This is a throwaway to you, but is the entire reason they do it.

59 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

DE can see the solutions on their side. They know Kuva, Endo, Credits, Rivens, Forma, Catalysts, Reactors, Tradable Scenes/Weapons/Mods are worth farming for.

Potatoes aren't worth it to DE to allow you to really farm for them.

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I am with you all the way Disruption Is one, if not the most well made gamemode made in years, really fun and enjoyable, but, like with any good gamemode in this game the rewards are trash (at least fot the 10th time). I really love disruption and I see a lot of potential, but I don't know how DE makes the decisions of rewards, also I think DE doesn't even play his own game, they actívate "god mode" against lvl 45 enemies and not even farm for things, using cheatcodes for easing the game for them.

How are we talking 7 years of a game in development and still new content is made for New players.

Hope Destiny 2 being free teaches Warframe a lesson and learn something

Either DE want it or not Warframe does need an endgame, here are a lot of ideas:

 

 

 

 

Edited by DOOMPATRIOT
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43 minutes ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

I am with you all the way Disruption Is one, if not the most well made gamemode made in years, really fun and enjoyable, but, like with any good gamemode in this game the rewards are trash (at least fot the 10th time). I really love disruption and I see a lot of potential, but I don't know how DE makes the decisions of rewards, also I think DE doesn't even play his own game, they actívate "god mode" against lvl 45 enemies and not even farm for things, using cheatcodes for easing the game for them.

How are we talking 7 years of a game in development and still new content is made for New players.

Hope Destiny 2 being free teaches Warframe a lesson and learn something

Either DE want it or not Warframe does need an endgame, here are a lot of ideas:

 

 

 

 

 

You forget one thing, you're a tenno that stronger than thanos where you're basically a god while guardians are space zombie soldiers that has no massive power whatsoever but if you insist on wanting endgame, here's a thread for you

 

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8 minutes ago, 844448 said:

here's a thread for you

I agree with your thread, things should be balanced for the sake of the game and not based on players feelings. As long as DE bends to the whim of players who get upset when their gun gets nerfed then we can't have balance.

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5 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is a throwaway to you, but is the entire reason they do it.

So yeah, they don't care about vets. Then they just need to say that, so we can all move on I guess. RIP all those excal prime accounts.

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1 hour ago, Kimimoto said:

I agree with your thread, things should be balanced for the sake of the game and not based on players feelings. As long as DE bends to the whim of players who get upset when their gun gets nerfed then we can't have balance.

but that's the identity of warframe, being a god. If I want balance I can play another game

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9 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

It's not hard to make rewards for these game modes, they just need to be better than sitting in an Arena gamemode from 2 years ago, that takes ZERO effort and isn't fun.

Easy peasy, let's just nerf endo drops on Vodyanoi.

- DE, probably

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29 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

It wasn't always, the identity changed over time, why shouldn't it change now?

why do we need to change to be other generic shooter with normal character that struggle on fight? Just to be another space CoD on crack?

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7 hours ago, 844448 said:

why do we need to change to be other generic shooter with normal character that struggle on fight? Just to be another space CoD on crack?

This is a slippery slope argument. Characters that can be challenged is about as far from just 'being Call of Duty' or 'generic' as possible. If a game's level of challenge is how we define what games Warframe is like, right now we're Kirby with guns, except with even less challenge because Kirby at least limits your screen nukes and often throws obstacles, mini-bosses or full bosses your way which can pose a genuine threat

This is like saying Halo is generic, Mario is generic or Pokémon is generic. Or Portal, or Kid Icarus or Katamari Damacy - because all of these games put a challenge in front of you. 

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On 2019-06-16 at 9:23 AM, DOOMPATRIOT said:

How are we talking 7 years of a game in development and still new content is made for New players.

Because that's still the target audience and largest demographic. In any game, not just this one. This sort of talk is why I accuse the forums of being an echo chamber. On here, there's this sense that the game is exclusively populated by jaded veterans who scoff at newer players and just want end game, when the reality in the actual game is anything but. Like pretty much every other Live Service out there, Warframe survives more on churn than on veterancy, and this is unlikely to change. It's smart development to grow your game broader, rather than taller. Games which exclusively cater to the highest-level players end up catering to an increasingly small, insular subgroup of their larger community, and that's not sustainable.

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27 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This is a slippery slope argument. Characters that can be challenged is about as far from just 'being Call of Duty' or 'generic' as possible. If a game's level of challenge is how we define what games Warframe is like, right now we're Kirby with guns, except with even less challenge because Kirby at least limits your screen nukes and often throws obstacles, mini-bosses or full bosses your way which can pose a genuine threat

This is like saying Halo is generic, Mario is generic or Pokémon is generic. Or Portal, or Kid Icarus or Katamari Damacy - because all of these games put a challenge in front of you. 

If the challenge is having hard to kill bosses because they're simply durable, I rather have no challenge

If the challenge is something that move fast, hit hard, cover big area while being hard to kill not because it's a bullet sponge, I'm in but if changing Identity of being a tenno just for challenge, I rather not

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Just now, 844448 said:

If the challenge is having hard to kill bosses because they're simply durable, I rather have no challenge

If the challenge is something that move fast, hit hard, cover big area while being hard to kill not because it's a bullet sponge, I'm in but if changing Identity of being a tenno just for challenge, I rather not

Most forms of challenge are going to require that players lose the ability to affect everything unilaterally the same way, or have their power reduced. Personally, I prefer the first option. Being overpowered is a state of something being extremely powerful and broadly applicable. Thus, by producing a number of instances where individual powers aren't useful (and others are, and so forth), you make it so that there are fewer nukes. With fewer nukes, you need to use more of the game's mechanics.

If you consider nukes or mapwide CC lockdowns the 'identity of being a Tenno', don't. It shouldn't be. It leads to boring gameplay in the long term, as it stifles creativity and flattens the interest curve. Every fight has the same solution - every mission has the same solution. Disruption goes a long way towards dealing with this (by requiring both single-target and large-scale combat skills and loadouts) but it's just one mode.

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Most forms of challenge are going to require that players lose the ability to affect everything unilaterally the same way, or have their power reduced. Personally, I prefer the first option. Being overpowered is a state of something being extremely powerful and broadly applicable. Thus, by producing a number of instances where individual powers aren't useful (and others are, and so forth), you make it so that there are fewer nukes. With fewer nukes, you need to use more of the game's mechanics.

If you consider nukes or mapwide CC lockdowns the 'identity of being a Tenno', don't. It shouldn't be. It leads to boring gameplay in the long term, as it stifles creativity and flattens the interest curve. Every fight has the same solution - every mission has the same solution. Disruption goes a long way towards dealing with this (by requiring both single-target and large-scale combat skills and loadouts) but it's just one mode.

We have those demolyst and nullifier, which is heavily despised by the community and nerfing isn't the answer based from my thread

I don't consider nukes or map wide cc lockdown as the identity of the tenno, what I consider as the identity is being stronger than those grineer/corpus/infested, if we can't even wipe a group easily, might as well throw away our frames and start making our operators do the fight. I find the power itself is good enough until those people that go no-life mode min-maxing everything to EZ mode wiping everything then proceed to say everything is too easy

I would say I prefer bosses that rain you down if you only know to play nuke, mitigating their damage while giving heavy punishment, maybe something that look like this

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNvT84wFcsargOfaVJJH9

or this

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6INAz12juF27B-ndwle3

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1 hour ago, 844448 said:

We have those demolyst and nullifier, which is heavily despised by the community and nerfing isn't the answer based from my thread

That's not an alike comparison.

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Thus, by producing a number of instances where individual powers aren't useful (and others are, and so forth),

Nullifiers, as the name implies, nullify all powers. In other words, it's just as unilateral as Warframe powers are. Setting it up that different abilities have different strengths and weaknesses (in this case, with abilities having certain enemies that resist their effects), however, is just straight-up common design wisdom. Funnily enough, this is actually a part of the nerfs Bungie was doing - they were nerfing items that had the abilities to return super from using super, because that basically took away the weakness of supers, whilst keeping them super powerful. Same for Whisper of the Worm - that could generate more ammunition for itself, thereby removing the weakness of heavy weapons (that they don't have much ammo).

We don't have this nearly enough, due to the fact that enemies were designed back when powers looked like Super Jump. We have a little - Noxes and the aforementioned Nullifiers - but not enough to make a difference, and mostly for weapons, not powers.

As for nerfing, that thread seems pretty controversial, with no general consensus, let alone a straight answer of 'yes or no.

 

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

I don't consider nukes or map wide cc lockdown as the identity of the tenno, what I consider as the identity is being stronger than those grineer/corpus/infested, if we can't even wipe a group easily, might as well throw away our frames and start making our operators do the fight.

You realise being powerful and being overpowered aren't the same thing? To the point where, on very rare occasions, something not powerful can be overpowered. For example, in Plants vs Zombies puffshrooms, despite being extremely weak, can still beat entire levels almost unassisted on the levels where they're available. Here's a relevant video for evidence. Note how only one zombie type can actually straight-up beat them at this point of the game - and this number only increases to two in later fog stages

Spoiler

 

 

In other words, it is entirely reasonable for us to still be capable of clearing crowds and being much stronger than our enemies. Even with giving abilities weaknesses for example, you carry guns. If Mesa, for example, had her powers get weaknesses to Shield Lancers or Blunts/Vector Shields (Peacemaker can't kill them and aggroes on them when the reticule touches it, protecting nearby targets) and to melee enemies (specifically her CC in shooting gallery as her damage reduction has this already), then she'd have some fairly considerable drawbacks. She could no longer nuke indiscriminately and could be killed more easily. Players would need to be careful when using her for certain enemy types, but those enemy types would remain easily dealt with. Shield Lancers can be disposed of with a precision weapon with punch-through and most options - even diligent use of Peacemaker - would work for melee targets.

I'm not sure if this would work 100% without testing it, but this seems like it would help prevent Mesa being overpowered, especially against Infested, which in turn helps make her lore of having been captured by the infestation in Patient Zero make more sense. However, she's still very powerful, as if those weaknesses are taken care of, she regains her old strength. You just have to make sure you're on top of things instead of one ability doing the work for you.

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26 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That's not an alike comparison.

Nullifiers, as the name implies, nullify all powers. In other words, it's just as unilateral as Warframe powers are. Setting it up that different abilities have different strengths and weaknesses (in this case, with abilities having certain enemies that resist their effects), however, is just straight-up common design wisdom. Funnily enough, this is actually a part of the nerfs Bungie was doing - they were nerfing items that had the abilities to return super from using super, because that basically took away the weakness of supers, whilst keeping them super powerful. Same for Whisper of the Worm - that could generate more ammunition for itself, thereby removing the weakness of heavy weapons (that they don't have much ammo).

We don't have this nearly enough, due to the fact that enemies were designed back when powers looked like Super Jump. We have a little - Noxes and the aforementioned Nullifiers - but not enough to make a difference, and mostly for weapons, not powers.

As for nerfing, that thread seems pretty controversial, with no general consensus, let alone a straight answer of 'yes or no.

 

You realise being powerful and being overpowered aren't the same thing? To the point where, on very rare occasions, something not powerful can be overpowered. For example, in Plants vs Zombies puffshrooms, despite being extremely weak, can still beat entire levels almost unassisted on the levels where they're available. Here's a relevant video for evidence. Note how only one zombie type can actually straight-up beat them at this point of the game - and this number only increases to two in later fog stages

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

In other words, it is entirely reasonable for us to still be capable of clearing crowds and being much stronger than our enemies. Even with giving abilities weaknesses for example, you carry guns. If Mesa, for example, had her powers get weaknesses to Shield Lancers or Blunts/Vector Shields (Peacemaker can't kill them and aggroes on them when the reticule touches it, protecting nearby targets) and to melee enemies (specifically her CC in shooting gallery as her damage reduction has this already), then she'd have some fairly considerable drawbacks. She could no longer nuke indiscriminately and could be killed more easily. Players would need to be careful when using her for certain enemy types, but those enemy types would remain easily dealt with. Shield Lancers can be disposed of with a precision weapon with punch-through and most options - even diligent use of Peacemaker - would work for melee targets.

I'm not sure if this would work 100% without testing it, but this seems like it would help prevent Mesa being overpowered, especially against Infested, which in turn helps make her lore of having been captured by the infestation in Patient Zero make more sense. However, she's still very powerful, as if those weaknesses are taken care of, she regains her old strength. You just have to make sure you're on top of things instead of one ability doing the work for you.

That shows that the community doesn't have an exact mind on this, this thread is a bit of the showcase. On one hand, you want endgame, challenging content, etc but on other hand, you don't want your power taken away. Balancing is being voiced all the time, but nerfing as a part of balancing is forbidden

Another part of it is the enemy balance. They want enemies that don't die in one hit but once we get them (terra corpus) people cry for nerf on them because they're strong enough to take down an inaros

This is why balancing is kind of walking on a blade's edge in warframe, and ironically, technically speaking, the difficulty is your choice. You can choose from being weak to overpowered based on your choice. People just want to stay overpowered all the time, ask for challenge and either get more overpowered to cheese or cry it's too hard because for one, I'm enjoying nezha being strong, but I'm not overpowered at all since I still need to combine my ability cast with gunplay to reach optimal results

Let's say we make mesa take the aggro from shield lancer, let's see how many nonsensical thread about shield lancer being broken or mesa is useless, or any kind of crying thread coming

That's why, I prefer if we get something that makes you play more active, not nerfing things (because it would make people cry DE not respecting players effort). I for one, have an idea for boss, just not really brave to put it in here yet

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1 hour ago, 844448 said:

That shows that the community doesn't have an exact mind on this, this thread is a bit of the showcase. On one hand, you want endgame, challenging content, etc but on other hand, you don't want your power taken away. Balancing is being voiced all the time, but nerfing as a part of balancing is forbidden

Another part of it is the enemy balance. They want enemies that don't die in one hit but once we get them (terra corpus) people cry for nerf on them because they're strong enough to take down an inaros

This is why balancing is kind of walking on a blade's edge in warframe, and ironically, technically speaking, the difficulty is your choice. You can choose from being weak to overpowered based on your choice. People just want to stay overpowered all the time, ask for challenge and either get more overpowered to cheese or cry it's too hard because for one, I'm enjoying nezha being strong, but I'm not overpowered at all since I still need to combine my ability cast with gunplay to reach optimal results

Let's say we make mesa take the aggro from shield lancer, let's see how many nonsensical thread about shield lancer being broken or mesa is useless, or any kind of crying thread coming

That's why, I prefer if we get something that makes you play more active, not nerfing things (because it would make people cry DE not respecting players effort). I for one, have an idea for boss, just not really brave to put it in here yet

That is not and has never been a valid reason to not balance, or a reason to make balancing decisions. Overwatch is a very clear example of what happens if you go down that road, or certainly was last year (not kept up with that balancing mess).

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On 2019-06-17 at 6:24 AM, Steel_Rook said:

I accuse the forums of being an echo chamber. On here, there's this sense that the game is exclusively populated by jaded veterans who scoff at newer players and just want end game

Are you sure it's not the other way around, and people only consider new players and vets just need to leave. That's the vibe I've gotten not only from the community, but DE themselves.

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1 minute ago, Kimimoto said:

Are you sure it's not the other way around, and people only consider new players and vets just need to leave. That's the vibe I've gotten not only from the community, but DE themselves.

I'm fairly certain, yes. I can't speak for General Discussions, but the majority of threads posted in this particular forum seem to come from long-term veterans looking for end game balanced around min/maxed builds, grindy sustainable rewards and issues with top-tier game balance... As well as implied criticism about how Veterans are being ignored and "when are Veterans going to get anything," etc. There is pushback, naturally, but I've seen fairly few genuine new players posting here and the majority of them are met with hostility and told some variety of "git gud" and "you're entitled." Especially when it comes to Warframe's legendarily poor new player experience.

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44 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm fairly certain, yes. I can't speak for General Discussions, but the majority of threads posted in this particular forum seem to come from long-term veterans looking for end game balanced around min/maxed builds, grindy sustainable rewards and issues with top-tier game balance... As well as implied criticism about how Veterans are being ignored and "when are Veterans going to get anything," etc. There is pushback, naturally, but I've seen fairly few genuine new players posting here and the majority of them are met with hostility and told some variety of "git gud" and "you're entitled." Especially when it comes to Warframe's legendarily poor new player experience.

This might help for endgame balancing

 

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En 16/6/2019 a las 2:09, 844448 dijo:

You forget one thing, you're a tenno that stronger than thanos where you're basically a god while guardians are space zombie soldiers that has no massive power whatsoever.

 

You say all of these and probably bleed out at 20 min of survival.

But gotta say for me would be fine to thanos-nerf all, but ok.

 

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