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With all the new mods and sets need more slots 2019

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But why? There is literally no reason to give us more slots when there are currently so many issues with the game's balance.

Without entirely dismissing balance complaints how does anyone argue in favor of adding such a thing?

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2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Myopic. Power creep is necessary and good. Would anyone be excited for updates if every new gun and mod was guaranteed to be worse than what we already have?

That is a perspective, but a one that leads to a dead end where nothing is special because it becomes outclassed, instead of a intricate balance system.

A gun or mod doesn't need to be *better* to be viable or good or worthwhile to use. The term side-grade applies here. Something that isn't 'better' but an alternative, something that gives you more wiggle room. It could be as simple as a suppressor to go stealth in a mission, or.. in-fact the ability to go stealth in a mission instead of loud.     

Because what happens is, in the current system, if you don't "one up" and make a better weapon or mod each time you add it, no one will use it. Exergis vs Tigris Prime - TP wins. 

Giving side-grades (like Komorex) where it adds something new and a new playstyle while still being competitive, is the correct  way of design. Don't design something else in a shadow, have it stand boldly on its own and carry itself, instead of being eclipsed by something else.

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6 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

That is a perspective, but a one that leads to a dead end where nothing is special because it becomes outclassed, instead of a intricate balance system.

It's not just a perspective, it's DE's perspective. This might shed some light on their design philosophy. And yeah, you're right, things do become outclassed all the time as a result of it. Need I mention kitguns? The fulmin? They are only the most recent examples of power creep items that have rendered vast swaths of WF's arsenal completely irrelevant. My point is that's a good thing.

Where you're wrong is where it leads. It's the lack of power creep that leads to a dead end, because regardless of how intricate your balance system is, eventually players will figure it out and develop a meta of the best builds possible, and that's when the game gets boring and dies. Power creep is the cure for that, it gives the game life, it gives players a reason to experiement with new guns and mods, because there'a always potential that they might be better than what you had before. Such a game never gets stale, at least while it continues being updated.

17 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

A gun or mod doesn't need to be *better* to be viable or good or worthwhile to use. The term side-grade applies here. Something that isn't 'better' but an alternative, something that gives you more wiggle room. It could be as simple as a suppressor to go stealth in a mission, or.. in-fact the ability to go stealth in a mission instead of loud.     

Because what happens is, in the current system, if you don't "one up" and make a better weapon or mod each time you add it, no one will use it. Exergis vs Tigris Prime - TP wins. 

Giving side-grades (like Komorex) where it adds something new and a new playstyle while still being competitive, is the correct  way of design. Don't design something else in a shadow, have it stand boldly on its own and carry itself, instead of being eclipsed by something else.

The Komorex isn't competitive. Nobody's replacing their Rubico with it for Eidolon hunting. What the Komorex is is a rocket launcher classified as a sniper rifle (much like the Lenz is a rocket launcher classified as a bow, the Lanka is a bow classified as a sniper rifle, etc.). And yes, that does have some novelty value, but eventually most players will return to the simple guns with no gimmicks, and at that point they will choose their weapons based on their raw strength.

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1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

It's not just a perspective, it's DE's perspective. This might shed some light on their design philosophy. And yeah, you're right, things do become outclassed all the time as a result of it. Need I mention kitguns? The fulmin? They are only the most recent examples of power creep items that have rendered vast swaths of WF's arsenal completely irrelevant. My point is that's a good thing.

Where you're wrong is where it leads. It's the lack of power creep that leads to a dead end, because regardless of how intricate your balance system is, eventually players will figure it out and develop a meta of the best builds possible, and that's when the game gets boring and dies. Power creep is the cure for that, it gives the game life, it gives players a reason to experiement with new guns and mods, because there'a always potential that they might be better than what you had before. Such a game never gets stale, at least while it continues being updated.

The Komorex isn't competitive. Nobody's replacing their Rubico with it for Eidolon hunting. What the Komorex is is a rocket launcher classified as a sniper rifle (much like the Lenz is a rocket launcher classified as a bow, the Lanka is a bow classified as a sniper rifle, etc.). And yes, that does have some novelty value, but eventually most players will return to the simple guns with no gimmicks, and at that point they will choose their weapons based on their raw strength.

With smarter AI vet players have something new to learn and DE have the developer ambiguity to be able ot create more than just 'moar health'.  Being able to have smarter dynamic AI that, when spawning, observes what 'class type' of warframes are in the squad and tries to counter them.
Adding new abilities with these AI and counters besides ' no fun nullifiers' or 'moar health/immunity to abilities' enemies, gives them more creative verticality than they will EVER have with the current system.
You reach Endgame in WoW or Diablo 3, what happens? You wait for the next expansion to make your hard earned gear obsolete and you restart the process of collecting gear again. Warframe doesn't have this, so you tone down the 'progression' in terms of objects (no longer will you simply defeat your enemy by being handed a badass weapon), you will now need to learn how to use this weapon.. like a badass. It will rely on YOU the player being better and learning, NOT relying solely on warframes, cheesing things or weapons like it currently does.


Solo players should be able to still do content comfortably solo. Group players should still be able to do content comfortably in a group, but may need to coordinate to take down certain enemies (like nox's for example). Giving that teamwork iniative and relying on player smarts and synergy/coordination, rather than "yeah bring saryn we're doing defense and my dinner is done in 8 minutes."

 

With the current system there is hardly a competitive weapon system, you kind of mentioned it with the komorex not competing with rubico.

However, I will be a bit hypocritical and say the komorex wasn't designed to be a competitor to rubico (that goes with the philosophy of DE right now, and most players, what will dethrown the current meta weapon per category and take it's place?) For sniper rifles it was vectis prime, now rubico prime. 

Komorex is a side-grade, it uses the sniper rifle platform, and instead of having super power for killing one enemy at a time, it's used more like you stated, a grenade launcher. Being unique, someone looking for this aspect will find it with the komorex and no other. This is good design, it doesn't need to directly complete with rubico to be useful, it just needs to be powerful enough and scale (which it does). 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

You reach Endgame in WoW or Diablo 3, what happens? You wait for the next expansion to make your hard earned gear obsolete and you restart the process of collecting gear again. Warframe doesn't have this, so you tone down the 'progression' in terms of objects (no longer will you simply defeat your enemy by being handed a badass weapon), you will now need to learn how to use this weapon.. like a badass. It will rely on YOU the player being better and learning, NOT relying solely on warframes, cheesing things or weapons like it currently does. 

What on earth are you talking about, WF has that more than the games you mentioned. Diablo 3 has no expansions anymore anyway (since the players saw fit to kill its revenue stream, the auction house, that was likely going to be used to fund their development), all you get is seasons. That's how Blizzard keeps the playerbase busy, by making them start over from scratch once they reach the end of progression. DE does the opposite, they keep extending the progression by adding more and more stuff to the top end of it.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

However, I will be a bit hypocritical and say the komorex wasn't designed to be a competitor to rubico (that goes with the philosophy of DE right now, and most players, what will dethrown the current meta weapon per category and take it's place?) For sniper rifles it was vectis prime, now rubico prime

Komorex is a side-grade, it uses the sniper rifle platform, and instead of having super power for killing one enemy at a time, it's used more like you stated, a grenade launcher. Being unique, someone looking for this aspect will find it with the komorex and no other. This is good design, it doesn't need to directly complete with rubico to be useful, it just needs to be powerful enough and scale (which it does). 

There's plenty of explosive weapons besides the Komorex already. Ogris, Tonkor, Penta, Lenz...  The only thing unique to the Komorex is that it's classed as a sniper, so if for some unfathomable reason you really want a rocket launcher with a scope, that's the gun for you. Other than that, it brings nothing new to the table.

Edited by SordidDreams
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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

What on earth are you talking about, WF has that more than the games you mentioned. Diablo 3 has no expansions anymore anyway (since the players saw fit to kill its revenue stream, the auction house, that was likely going to be used to fund their development), all you get is seasons. That's how Blizzard keeps the playerbase busy, by making them start over from scratch once they reach the end of progression. DE does the opposite, they keep extending the progression by adding more and more stuff to the top end of it.

There's plenty of explosive weapons besides the Komorex already. Ogris, Tonkor, Penta, Lenz...  The only thing unique to the Komorex is that it's classed as a sniper, so if for some unfathomable reason you really want a rocket launcher with a scope, that's the gun for you. Other than that, it brings nothing new to the table.

Warframe you're constantly (unless you mod otherwise) at peak efficiency.  Even bad builds can still be super effective. You define what we have now as progression, that implies that we get stronger to fight the new content.

What if I told you, we're already overpowered for any and all new content? 

There is no progression, it's just shiny new toys, and if those toys don't measure up, we still have our meta weapons to fall back on that will overkill  by 4 times or more.  The only 'progression' is the first 10-20 hours of the game when you're getting new mods and learning the game. Once you have your basic mods for each warframe and weapon category looted and leveled, the 'next' plateau is rivens and umbra mods, then a slightly higher plateau for umbra forma/aura forma. A side-grade of mods that add utility (amalgam mods) to the first tier, which is a nice variety, is all that we have currently, if everything is simplified.

I think this is.. bad to say the least. I think gear checks alone are a bad form of design, which is why we either need scaling dynamic AI or a way of selecting higher difficulties. The issues with the latter is more powercreep (think Greater Rifts for Diablo 3 or Mystical Raids in WoW). Where only a handful will reach this level, so a small percentile will ever see this content.

Whereas with dynamic AI an actual progression system (where the player learns, thus a mental gear check, with a 'physical' one that we have now), alongside dynamic scaling AI (so smarter enemies longer you stay in missions for vet players looking for challenge with familiarity). Everyone wins.   DE wins because they have smarter AI, so more wiggle room for new enemy types that can do more than throw themselves at you, the closest thing to 'smart' is manics with their random jumps, teleports and assassination type style I'd like more of that, but actually threatening.

New players that don't want this challenge or those that like the power fantasy, can have it. Those that want the challenge and dynamic AI and something new to overcome, can have it with endurance runs, that start closer to the 20 minute mark for challenge rather than 3 hours+ of sitting in a corner cheesing with meta frames. 

 

I get where you're coming from, (also wanted to point out, great channel to link)  but I think this style is bad for warframe in the long run. Because you end up creating content that instead of making the player WANT to play it, they will SKIP it to get to the next big shiny thing.  A great example of this is WoW, instead of you playing through the expansions and wanting to progress and experience them, even Blizzard pushes players forward through the expansions, even offering paid leveling to bypass it entirely to get to the new shiny.  Now sure, you can argue they might want to play with friends etc, but that isn't the point. The point is, time spent on interesting story, lore, mechanics, quests etc. Is simply.. ran past, to get the newest thing, instead of rewarding players through going through all the stuff your game has to offer.  

Like on earth, yeah it's cool you can go into PoE within an hour of installing, but there isn't much for you to do there until far later in the experience. I'm not saying gating content behind "need to be this high  to enter" is the best strategy, but it isn't a bad concept. Older games like Rachet and Clank, Spyro and more modern games like Hollowknight utilize this to give the player a feeling of progression when they can go into an area and do something that they couldn't before, because of a newfound power. 

 

I hope I"m not confusing, I know my thought process sometimes is all over the place, but in the end I want a true  progression experience where the player needs to learn, and utilize the tools they have. Rather than the tools taking the thought process away, because it isn't needed to begin with.

 

*Edit*

Even though I seen the video in the past, it has been over 2 years so watched it again.

5:00 in he mentions how this design helps appeal to vet players but becomes overwhelming for new ones due to the 'catch up' required.  The issue here is, it isn't pleasing vets either while also  being overwhelming for new players. Nobody wins. 

7:00 onwards, basically if DE reworks older game modes rather than abandoning them, like salvage, defection and gives scaling rewards (like disruption) across the board, while also giving worthwhile rewards, then we'll have a good foot forward.  

 

Edited by Tinklzs
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1 minute ago, Tinklzs said:

What if I told you, we're already overpowered for any and all new content? 

Since there are still enemies that don't die in one shot, you'd be wrong. 😉 Also, new and stronger enemies are being added along with new and stronger weapons. Power creep is the video game equivalent of inflation, it serves the same purpose of keeping people on the treadmill by giving the illusion of progress and improvement.

4 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

I think this style is bad for warframe in the long run.

Nothing lasts forever, and Warframe is a business venture. It's still climbing in popularity and profitability, so it seems so far the approach works just fine.

7 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

The point is, time spent on interesting story, lore, mechanics, quests etc. Is simply.. ran past, to get the newest thing, instead of rewarding players through going through all the stuff your game has to offer.  

That's true, but it kinda has to be for several reasons. Newer content, especially in WF, tends to be of much higher quality than earlier stuff. You think WF has a player retention problem now? Hoo boy, imagine if the game acually forced you to progress through all the crappy early content instead of mostly skipping it to get to the good stuff. Also, these online games tend to be huge. Ain't nobody got time for a game that takes four thousand hours to complete.

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We need a dedicated Augment Slot.... also if any mod has no  direct effect on your Abilities or survivability then for god sake just make it an Exilus Mod....

Or don't.... just make new mod sets for us to ignore. Great Design thinking 😉

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2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

We need a dedicated Augment Slot.... also if any mod has no  direct effect on your Abilities or survivability then for god sake just make it an Exilus Mod....

Or don't.... just make new mod sets for us to ignore. Great Design thinking 😉

Current exilus mods already are a power creep bcs they give bonuses such as +15% ability strenght, or some knockdown immunity etc. Utility mods should be... utility, current ones are not so even if they made those current useless mods exilus only they would be still useless even there as we already have bonus giving exilus mods.

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1 minute ago, TrixieLulamoonn said:

Current exilus mods already are a power creep bcs they give bonuses such as +15% ability strenght, or some knockdown immunity etc

You think 15% is Power Creep ? Have tried going beyond the 1st Sortie maybe ? 

Also a percentage chance to resist knock downs is meh....especially since you still get staggered anyways.... its not like those mods turn you into Atlas.... and more importantly one of them is a 600 Day log in reward.... so.... again.... Power Creep ? Far from it..... 

Sounds like you're just against Quality of Life Improvements.... I don't blame you.... DE has denied them to you for so long you just got used to it.

 

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1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

You think 15% is Power Creep ? Have tried going beyond the 1st Sortie maybe ? 

Also a percentage chance to resist knock downs is meh....especially since you still get staggered anyways.... its not like those mods turn you into Atlas.... and more importantly one of them is a 600 Day log in reward.... so.... again.... Power Creep ? Far from it..... 

Sounds like you're just against Quality of Life Improvements.... I don't blame you.... DE has denied them to you for so long you just got used to it.

 

Sorties are very easy, unless 2 corpus grenades land on a mobile defense console or being unlucky with lua rescue there is nothing in them that poses any challenge at all so don't understand why assuming being bad at the game for saying 15% ability strenght on top of all that we already have is power creep.

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The only thing I want is a Warframe Augment slot. Don't touch anything else.

Much please and thank you.

PS: I want Harder missions than Abberations. Make enemies level 300. And reward us with endo.

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10 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Since there are still enemies that don't die in one shot, you'd be wrong. 😉 Also, new and stronger enemies are being added along with new and stronger weapons. Power creep is the video game equivalent of inflation, it serves the same purpose of keeping people on the treadmill by giving the illusion of progress and improvement.

Nothing lasts forever, and Warframe is a business venture. It's still climbing in popularity and profitability, so it seems so far the approach works just fine.

That's true, but it kinda has to be for several reasons. Newer content, especially in WF, tends to be of much higher quality than earlier stuff. You think WF has a player retention problem now? Hoo boy, imagine if the game acually forced you to progress through all the crappy early content instead of mostly skipping it to get to the good stuff. Also, these online games tend to be huge. Ain't nobody got time for a game that takes four thousand hours to complete.

I'm not incorrect actually.

We're overpowered so there are only a handful of ways to counter that power. Increase the health of enemies (as every game that has this system does, borderlands, diablo 3, WoW) or make the outright immune to our abilities. We have both.

Instead of having an illusion investing for better quality is the way to go. Make the missions more fun and engaging to play, instead of assassinating Tyl Regor because equinox is 'fun' to farm, why not make the fight itself fun to the point where doing the boss over and over is a joy on itself?  Just like some players play raids in WoW over and over even when they're fully geared (can't get any higher item level wise) because the content itself is fun?

 

For the moment, yes, but the foreseeable future, no.  The idea of sacrificing older content for newer content is a bad one. Instead of having bad systems that are left to collect dust, why not improve them and make them better rather than receive more and more complaints on them? Especially when the community has given plenty of ideas to fix these shortcomings. 

 

*Looks at tens of thousands of players with thousands of hours* 

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. You don't need to make Warframe as in-depth as say, The Witcher 3 with branching stories and choices etc, but many fond memories for players are from those quests you start with and learn about the game from be it lore or mechanics. Like Harrow's quest is one of my favorites.. rap.. tap.. tap.. I love it! However, instead of adding more lore to the game (that can EASILY  be done with what they have, they just randomly add new frames.  I've said this many times at this point, but again into the void...

Hildryn, Garuda and Baruuk are linked with fortuna/orb vallis. So have their primary mission be a serious of events of individual last stands, even baruuk eventually being found in a very isolated area (like the silver grove for titania, but obviously in the vallis) where he died of age (something new about the tenno unchecked/spoken about).   Then it turns out all three events are linked and show a fail-safe for fighting the orbs on vallis (which unlocks the orb fights) is how I would've done it.  Obviously with more story etc, but being able to see how these frames survived in their final moments and how they changed the landscape, would breathe some life into the vallis that doesn't really exist right now.  It's just a colder climate with corpus instead of grineer and spider crabs instead of walking.. skeletons.

Since we can already fight orbs, we have a few structures in the vallis that are suggestive of a void gate, so possibly utilize that for another major quest (possibly another new mission in the void in a far future update) that shows how the three fortuna frames were ambushed by the corrupted trying to get the blueprints for this fail-safe. Which leads down a rabbit hole to vor/alad V origins and natah (maybe even the dax).   

You don't need to pander to the lore, but it helps set a nice foundation which can give ideas and further flesh out and make your world interesting, right now no one cares about it - because the loot is more important. And true, even if they do what I said above, there are still going to be those that don't care about it and will rush rush rush objectives like nothing changed.  But for those that do care, it will make all the difference.

That was a bit off-topic so I'll take a side step closer to the main topic.

DE seems to realize that reworking old content isn't such a bad idea, with Empyrian (railjack)/ Archwing and Melee 2.999~. However, I feel as if Melee 2.9 is a bit funny considering it causes many issues and makes any mod related to channeling as useless (which means even more useless mods). Archwing, one of the most hated game types, focusing an entire development cycle on this, is extremely foolish, considering if it fails - then it's as if an update never happened. While that is a cynical perspective, it's a logical standpoint, instead I think they should've looked at some mechanics first and take some baby steps, get feedback then move forward while focusing on another 'big' update as the mainline, then do railjack/empyrian afterwards. 

But I guess we'll see on that.

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22 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

instead of assassinating Tyl Regor because equinox is 'fun' to farm, why not make the fight itself fun to the point where doing the boss over and over is a joy on itself?

Because then you'd have no reason to buy the frame with money. Games with a conventional business model get you to pay so that you can play. WF and other games with a pay-to-skip business model annoy you until you pay to not have to play. Such is the nature of the beast.

25 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

For the moment, yes, but the foreseeable future, noThe idea of sacrificing older content for newer content is a bad one. Instead of having bad systems that are left to collect dust, why not improve them and make them better rather than receive more and more complaints on them?

Because there's no reason to? Complaints are irrelevant, what matters are hard numbers, and the game's popular as it is. The devs need to choose where they devote their time. "Warframe makes adjustments to modding system" is not a headline; "Warframe adds gorgeous space flight mode" is.

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7 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Because then you'd have no reason to buy the frame with money. Games with a conventional business model get you to pay so that you can play. WF and other games with a pay-to-skip business model annoy you until you pay to not have to play. Such is the nature of the beast.

Fair point. I still think some mission types could be ironed out a bit and made better overall. Defection could be more fun, same with salvage, while still fitting into that model.

8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Because there's no reason to? Complaints are irrelevant, what matters are hard numbers, and the game's popular as it is. The devs need to choose where they devote their time. "Warframe makes adjustments to modding system" is not a headline; "Warframe adds gorgeous space flight mode" is.

Also a fair point, but I still think they should have a small devoted team that focused on bringing older stuff up to date, I mean, look at the PoE facelift for a good example.

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Power creep? I barely play anything under level 100 if I can help it. Relics aside, maybe some kuva runs. And I main Limbo with two self damage weapons and power donation so I dont need more power. I would like to be able to use more of the 1000s of mods in the game and still be viable at the levels I enjoy running. I have found work arounds but having to dump an entire loadouts to add some of the fun mods without ruining my ability to have fun. 

Some good arguments here. Thank you. 

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7 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

I still think some mission types could be ironed out a bit and made better overall. Defection could be more fun, same with salvage, while still fitting into that model.

I don't think mission types really matter all that much. It's all the same running, jumping, and shooting; the gameplay of defection is exactly the same as the gameplay of any other mission. I think the problem is the game's just gotten stale. Yes, the running, jumping, and shooting is excellent, but it still gets old after a few hundred (thousand...) hours. There's nothing the devs can really do there without fundamentally remaking the game.

A lot of people also make suggestions that basically boil down to buffing the rewards. More kuva from kuva survival, more endo from arbitrations, etc. And yeah, getting rewards is fun, and buffing the rewards would make those missions more satisfying to play. But when the business model of the game rests on those rewards being a PITA to get, the devs literally can't afford to do that.

12 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

I still think they should have a small devoted team that focused on bringing older stuff up to date, I mean, look at the PoE facelift for a good example.

I think they do have such a team, but it seems to me they're focusing on relatively superficial stuff. Visual remasters, new melee system, new wall running animation... Good stuff, and very safe to do. Nobody's going to drop the game because the graphics got better, and only a small minority dropped it because of the melee stuff. But fundamental changes to the modding system, the most basic element of progression in WF? That's like making a whole new game, that risks pissing off everybody. Especially when there's no guarantee that it's going to be well-designed and functional. DE's track record in this respect is not exactly stellar, basically everything they make requries a serious revision or two, and that's not really something an online game can afford when tinkering with basic systems, especially not by entrusting such a change to a small rework team. I'm reminded of the old MMO Star Wars Galaxies. Its devs did have the balls to radically alter the basic systems, and it crippled the game.

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Power creep already freaking happened,  Its why eidolons, orb spiders,  fractures,  and everything 60+ sucks.

All my slots go towards survival and stats (on a warframe).  I dont have room for augments and cool wierd support mods.

I think set mods should get their own row of mod slots. 1-4 spots depending on what you are modding.  Warframes can hold alot of set mods.  Weapons can to.  

Most of the time those set mods make you weaker in raw damage/survival but make up for it by giving you boosts in other area's.  So I dont see how its power creep if you build out your weapons and warframes sideways instead of just adding to their power.  

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how about we try to get enemy scaling fixed first, then focus on the power creep problem

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5 hours ago, Tinklzs said:

We are already too powerful as it is, between rivens, warframes (some more than others) and meta weapons.  

 

Players need nerfed, enemies need redesigned in scaling. I'd be fine with an augment slot AFTER that - but not before.

A very strong, no.

 

This 1000% especially if enemies would get more difficult through strategy and counter play (dark souls enemies would be a fair match against warframe if you think about it) rather than bullet spongy one shots enemies. A new enemy type being introduced as difficulty goes up would also be much better. 

As for mod slots, maybe ONE augment slot and a rework to forma so you won't have to level up your frames back to 30 only to have to rinse and repeat. That and polarity stacking would be nice. 

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No, decide what you want to use and stick to it.

When a new set comes out I crate a fresh build to try it out.  Sometimes I keep it in a permanent spot other times I don’t.

But we don’t need more slots.  We have enough space to make every frame capable in all non endless content.

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4 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Myopic. Power creep is necessary and good. Would anyone be excited for updates if every new gun and mod was guaranteed to be worse than what we already have?

This form of power creep tips the scales too hard. 
Healthy progression is in small numbers of powering up, along with enemies. 

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