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Dear DE can we have a canon and reasonable Nova and Valkyr Prime lore

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And Excalibur, Ember, Frost, Hydroid, Limbo, Zephyr, Mesa, Chroma, Loki, Rhino, Ash, Trinity, Equinox.. Did I miss anyone? Still waiting Hydroid Prime trailer...SOONtm

Edited by (XB1)RDeschain82

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I get the continuing Valkyr argument, but Nova does nothing to break lore.

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2 minutes ago, Atsia said:

I get the continuing Valkyr argument, but Nova does nothing to break lore.

I think it was something about Nova's initial lore suggesting something about her being designed by the Tenno, on account of her kit design being submitted out of game by the design console.

it's probably very vague statements, and also extremely ancient ones.

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Just now, gekkougabutt said:

I'm confused, how does Valkyr Prime break lore? 

Her Deluxe skin (which usually aren't in any way actually canon) said that Gersemi is the original appearance of Valkyr, so a lot of people have run that to mean that she shouldn't have a Prime, even though DE had said every frame will get a Prime. Also, Her Hysteriav ability is implied to be something caused by her torture at the hand of Alad V, so many people thought she should have a different 4.

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1 minute ago, OvisCaedo said:

I think it was something about Nova's initial lore suggesting something about her being designed by the Tenno, on account of her kit design being submitted out of game by the design console.

it's probably very vague statements, and also extremely ancient ones.

I know why people think she breaks lore, but there's a difference between being designed by Tenno, and bring made by the Tenno. How would we have made any frame ourselves, we didn't have that info until recently.

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Just now, Atsia said:

I know why people think she breaks lore, but there's a difference between being designed by Tenno, and bring made by the Tenno. How would we have made any frame ourselves, we didn't have that info until recently.

Because we have had the ability to reverse engineer Orokin technology, and were once able to make Primes, like the Boar, Dakra and Kamas. Even the Corpus and Grineer have successful ability in reverse engineering, with Helios and Seer respectively. 

For Nova, all we know is that she was designed by the Tenno High Council. There is no date on this, so for all we know the Frame/Prime could have been designed during the height of the Orokin Empire. Anything after the fall is recreation. 

For Valkyr, at the base of it, she has always been a Berserker themed frame. What the codex implies is that Gersemi Valkyr was the original, and after Alad, became the one we know of today. Prime Valkyr for all intents and purposes could have been lost till we discovered prime schematics in the Void. So, Primed Valk, duplicated into Gersemi Valk, alad-ified into Vanilla Valk. 

The secret to lore in Warframe is not to think about it. 

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17 minutes ago, Atsia said:

Her Deluxe skin (which usually aren't in any way actually canon) said that Gersemi is the original appearance of Valkyr, so a lot of people have run that to mean that she shouldn't have a Prime, even though DE had said every frame will get a Prime. Also, Her Hysteriav ability is implied to be something caused by her torture at the hand of Alad V, so many people thought she should have a different 4.

We will run into that same horrible issue later on with Revenant aswell. He is supposed to be some frame that got killed or similar on the plains, only to be infused and corrupted by sentient energy and technology, giving him new powers etc. How does something like that possibly have a prime version with the same skillset?

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39 minutes ago, Atsia said:

Her Deluxe skin (which usually aren't in any way actually canon) said that Gersemi is the original appearance of Valkyr, so a lot of people have run that to mean that she shouldn't have a Prime

This is a very common misconception stemming from the fact that people think that the first version must have been cast in gold.

Yet these same people don't seem confused by Proto Excalibur, despite that being the prototype (the very first).

 

The truth is that the first version, even in Orokin times, were always non-Primed. They were prototypes. Of these prototypes, the Orokin manufactured two different series: the Primed and the non-Primed version (which also existed in Orokin times).

We don't have many prototype skins. Excalibur has one. Volt has one. Valkyr has one.

But Valkyr's Gersemini being a problem and Proto Excalibur not being one is just a case of players not understanding the lore.

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48 minutes ago, Atsia said:

I get the continuing Valkyr argument, but Nova does nothing to break lore.

Actually, she does. It mainly comes down to the fact that there is no logical way the Tenno High Council existed during the Orokin times, and since Nova is the product of the High Council's research(as per her most recent Profile video), her Prime is a lore-breaking paradox, similar to Valkyr, Revenant, Nidus, and possibly Harrow as well.

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Valkyr existed even before the Corpus experiment. There has never been any plot hole of her prime version except maybe the aesthetic design.

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Head canon best canon.

Primes we have now are based on the orikin designs and the masses produced versions and may not perfectly match the original orikin designs due to lost information.

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2 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Actually, she does. It mainly comes down to the fact that there is no logical way the Tenno High Council existed during the Orokin times, and since Nova is the product of the High Council's research(as per her most recent Profile video), her Prime is a lore-breaking paradox, similar to Valkyr, Revenant, Nidus, and possibly Harrow as well.

What is the basis of you saying there is no logical way the Tenno Council, an in-game stand-in for the Design Council, should exist in the Orokin era?

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10 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

What is the basis of you saying there is no logical way the Tenno Council, an in-game stand-in for the Design Council, should exist in the Orokin era?

Simple. The Orokin would've never allowed it to exist. It would've represented too great a threat to be allowed, especially in the wake of Inaros' betrayal. If a lone defector Tenno could single-handedly stop all Yuvan gathering on Mars, imagine what the Tenno could do with an actual, functional command council. They could overthrow the Orokin and take over. This would've been too great a risk for the Orokin, and as such they would do everything in their power to prevent the Tenno from becoming organised under any form of leadership other than the Orokin's.

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3 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Simple. The Orokin would've never allowed it to exist. It would've represented too great a threat to be allowed, especially in the wake of Inaros' betrayal. If a lone defector Tenno could single-handedly stop all Yuvan gathering on Mars, imagine what the Tenno could do with an actual, functional command council. They could overthrow the Orokin and take over. This would've been too great a risk for the Orokin, and as such they would do everything in their power to prevent the Tenno from becoming organised under any form of leadership other than the Orokin's.

The "Tenno High Council" doesn't need to have been a leadership entity. It could just as likely have been a think tank or research group. The Lotus says that the Tenno made the five Schools during the Old War, so they definitely had Tenno-led institutions. Besides, the Tenno in the Orokin Era were led by the Lotus, so any sort of council they had would be answerable to her regardless.

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il y a 1 minute, Kerberos-3 a dit :

Simple. The Orokin would've never allowed it to exist. It would've represented too great a threat to be allowed, especially in the wake of Inaros' betrayal. If a lone defector Tenno could single-handedly stop all Yuvan gathering on Mars, imagine what the Tenno could do with an actual, functional command council. They could overthrow the Orokin and take over. This would've been too great a risk for the Orokin, and as such they would do everything in their power to prevent the Tenno from becoming organised under any form of leadership other than the Orokin's.

Because the orokin never took any decision that would put their empire at risk, like unleashing a race of self meliorating hive machines to colonise another system only to have them come back and bite their ass, or engineer a whole strain of mutators to create an horde of biological creatures to throw at the aforementioned hive machines only for those creatures to turn back and bite their ass xD

To be honest it doesn't strike me as impossible. 

 

On topic of Valkyr, the "lore breaking" is in the headcanon of people. Since she is a berserker people assume she got those powers after being experimented upon by Alad, while there is literally no basis for that reasoning in the lore. On top of that people were criticising the design saying it looks more like the base model than the gersemi one, while a very cursory look would show how the whole body, forearms and leg main lines are taken from gersemi and not vanilla. 

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Just now, GrayArchon said:

The "Tenno High Council" doesn't need to have been a leadership entity. It could just as likely have been a think tank or research group. The Lotus says that the Tenno made the five Schools during the Old War, so they definitely had Tenno-led institutions. Besides, the Tenno in the Orokin Era were led by the Lotus, so any sort of council they had would be answerable to her regardless.

Tenno-founded, but probably not Tenno-led. Most likely the Orokin installed the Dax to lead the Tenno schools, and the Lotus was most likely intended to be a puppet leader, allowing the Orokin to directly control the Tenno without actually having to interact with them.

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4 hours ago, Atsia said:

Her Deluxe skin (which usually aren't in any way actually canon) said that Gersemi is the original appearance of Valkyr, so a lot of people have run that to mean that she shouldn't have a Prime, even though DE had said every frame will get a Prime. Also, Her Hysteriav ability is implied to be something caused by her torture at the hand of Alad V, so many people thought she should have a different 4.

There is a way for DE to actually get around this. Since it was never clarified whether Gemini skin referring to how she used to look meant only the normal variant or her normal variant being the only one that ever existed, DE could work around that by saying Gemini skin specifically refers to modern time non-prime Valkyr, while simultaneously allowing Valkyr Prime from the past to exist without breaking spacetime continuum. The only thing they could not get away with would be her Hysteria, which as you say is supposedly caused by Alad V torture. When I imagined Valkyr Prime or Gesimi Valkyr being released, I was kind of expecting at least different visual effect for her 4th ability to explain that modern time Valkyr Hysteria is a fractured version of the original. But that never happened so the timeline is still broken. I think as since then we have not seen anything like Valkyr being so heavily influenced by modern day events, DE learnt a lesson of sorts to avoid creating these plotholes that may be difficult to solve.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Autongnosis said:

Because the orokin never took any decision that would put their empire at risk, like unleashing a race of self meliorating hive machines to colonise another system only to have them come back and bite their ass, or engineer a whole strain of mutators to create an horde of biological creatures to throw at the aforementioned hive machines only for those creatures to turn back and bite their ass xD

To be honest it doesn't strike me as impossible. 

 

On topic of Valkyr, the "lore breaking" is in the headcanon of people. Since she is a berserker people assume she got those powers after being experimented upon by Alad, while there is literally no basis for that reasoning in the lore. On top of that people were criticising the design saying it looks more like the base model than the gersemi one, while a very cursory look would show how the whole body, forearms and leg main lines are taken from gersemi and not vanilla. 

" Previously having thrived among the Tenno in her natural Gersemi form, Valkyr is known for her capture and subsequent torment at the hands of Alad V. The obsessed Corpus scientist brought Valkyr to his lab on Themisto, Jupiter where she was be restrained and subjected to harsh experiments. This mad science would greatly expand the Corpus' knowledge of Warframe design, and consequentially left Valkyr maddened and scarred.

Ultimately, Valkyr was deconstructed and used to produce the Zanuka prototype, Alad V's companion fighting machine. However, blueprints of her components can still be found after defeating Alad V in combat.

Valkyr's abilities reflect her madness, accompanied by cries of anguish. " - Source: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Valkyr 

By the time of her initial reveal way back then and upon her release shortly after DE did state that her state, abilities and especially her 4th ability were changed as the result of Alad V's torture. This is not headcanon, it is actual canon. What players do not know is how the abilities changed, that part is headcanon. But changed abilities themselves is actual verified Warframe canon.

Edited by BETAOPTICS

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29 minutes ago, BETAOPTICS said:

There is a way for DE to actually get around this. Since it was never clarified whether Gemini skin referring to how she used to look meant only the normal variant or her normal variant being the only one that ever existed, DE could work around that by saying Gemini skin specifically refers to modern time non-prime Valkyr, while simultaneously allowing Valkyr Prime from the past to exist without breaking spacetime continuum. The only thing they could not get away with would be her Hysteria, which as you say is supposedly caused by Alad V torture. When I imagined Valkyr Prime or Gesimi Valkyr being released, I was kind of expecting at least different visual effect for her 4th ability to explain that modern time Valkyr Hysteria is a fractured version of the original. But that never happened so the timeline is still broken. I think as since then we have not seen anything like Valkyr being so heavily influenced by modern day events, DE learnt a lesson of sorts to avoid creating these plotholes that may be difficult to solve.

That was what I was about to say as well, every frame has a Prime and more recent normal version, I just thought Gersemi Valkyr was a previous version of the recent normal version. Although I don't see why it makes no sense for Hysteria to have been her ability before Alad V's torture thing, other frames have 4th abilities that use a weapon type, it could be that it was simply renamed after the whole Alad V thing, but before that it was still just an immortality-claw ability called a different name?

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Just now, gekkougabutt said:

That was what I was about to say as well, every frame has a Prime and more recent normal version, I just thought Gersemi Valkyr was a previous version of the recent normal version. Although I don't see why it makes no sense for Hysteria to have been her ability before Alad V's torture thing, other frames have 4th abilities that use a weapon type, it could be that it was simply renamed after the whole Alad V thing, but before that it was still just an immortality-claw ability called a different name?

Well as the other player commented on this thread, when Valkyr was initially revealed and released soon after by DE, they described her Hysteria as being a product of Alad V torture. Leaving the players guess what Valkyr was like before her capture and torture. Of course this is realized that DE never explicitly said how Alad V's torture affected Valkyr and especially her 4th ability. So as far as we know players are guessing what she could've been like originally. Maybe her 4th was entirely different, or maybe it was almost identical but did not have certain qualities. We know from lore that her 4th changed, we just don't know how it changed.

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14 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Actually, she does. It mainly comes down to the fact that there is no logical way the Tenno High Council existed during the Orokin times, and since Nova is the product of the High Council's research(as per her most recent Profile video), her Prime is a lore-breaking paradox, similar to Valkyr, Revenant, Nidus, and possibly Harrow as well.

How so? The only time a "Tenno High Council" could've existed is during the time of the empire, as we couldn't have made her after since we were out to sleep by the Lotus. Plus, as someone else said, we have the 5 Tenno schools of thought, so it was likely that us Tenno had enough autonomy to have a minute functioning society within the Orokin. The only one of your suggestions at the end that could break lore is Revenant, literally all the other one can just be degradation of time and this we can't pull the exact Prime blueprint from them.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Atsia said:

How so? The only time a "Tenno High Council" could've existed is during the time of the empire, as we couldn't have made her after since we were out to sleep by the Lotus. Plus, as someone else said, we have the 5 Tenno schools of thought, so it was likely that us Tenno had enough autonomy to have a minute functioning society within the Orokin. The only one of your suggestions at the end that could break lore is Revenant, literally all the other one can just be degradation of time and this we can't pull the exact Prime blueprint from them.

5 schools that were founded by the Tenno, but most likely run by the Dax with Lotus as a puppet leader to avoid another repetition of their weapons turning on them like what happened with the Infestation. A council of any kind made up of anyone the Orokin couldn't directly control would've been too great a risk to permit, and would've been squashed before it even formed. As for the example, they all break lore in one way or another. Nidus is a frame made entirely of the Infestation, something even the Orokin couldn't properly control. Valkyr's lore indicates she was very different before Alad V got his hands on her, and as for Harrow? Well, its pretty simple.  The original Harrow was a Frankenframe slapped together from whatever the early Red Veil could get their hands on, then chained to a tree in their basement, which we ended up destroying later on. Much like Nova, Harrow wasn't an Orokin design, and as such couldn't have had a Prime.

Edited by Kerberos-3

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26 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

5 schools that were founded by the Tenno, but most likely run by the Dax with Lotus as a puppet leader to avoid another repetition of their weapons turning on them like what happened with the Infestation. A council of any kind made up of anyone the Orokin couldn't directly control would've been too great a risk to permit, and would've been squashed before it even formed. As for the example, they all break lore in one way or another. Nidus is a frame made entirely of the Infestation, something even the Orokin couldn't properly control. Valkyr's lore indicates she was very different before Alad V got his hands on her, and as for Harrow? Well, its pretty simple.  The original Harrow was a Frankenframe slapped together from whatever the early Red Veil could get their hands on, then chained to a tree in their basement, which we ended up destroying later on. Much like Nova, Harrow wasn't an Orokin design, and as such couldn't have had a Prime.

The Orokin were also in a position where is the Tenno were their literal last hope, so I can imagine some aquiessences being made to accommodate us, and they don't even then had some measure of control over us. And how would Nidus being made of infestation break lore, ALL frames are made from infestation. And I'm pretty sure the Harrow Tell had was stolen by the Red Veil, since there's no way they would've had access to a Helmith to get the infestation for it

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