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Please Don't Make Ruk As Gimiky As Vor And J2K


Neuhnee
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Standing around waiting for Vor to come out of his bubble is not fun.

 

Standing around waiting for J2K to pop one of it's heads up, *and then* waiting around some *more* for it to open it's meat curtains is not fun. And then you get to do the exact same thing again, with more poison clouds.

 

Weak points, invulnerable phases, progressive phases, spawning waves of trash. Warframe boss fights are starting to feel like early generation console boss fights.

 

When I saw this, I *had* to play this game. This was so awesome I would watch the video a couple times a day. https://warframe.com/media/videos/open-beta-launch-trailer

 

But the the game is starting to feel more like this

 

*Edit

 

I would remove the invulnerability stages. These serve no purpose other than to artificially prolong the fight. If you've put in 400hrs and have your flux rifle modded to the gills, don't you kind of deserve to kill the first boss in the game in about a second flat?

 

Having said that, I actually like Kill's invulnerability mechanic. He's not just outright invulnerable and there's nothing you can do about it, there's always some part of him you can attack, something you can do as a player to progress the fight, rather then just waiting out his invulnerable stage.

 

I would also eliminate J2Ks first stage, or at least very much change his second. ATM you pretty much do the exact same thing twice in two different locations. And I would put him in a *huge* arena. The main thing about J2K is how big he is, and he's currently in a tiny little hole where he (and we) can't move around properly and use his size to his advantage.

 

If you had all three heads to contend with and he had the freedom to actually pursue you and maneuver, you'd have your hands full enough to not need invulnerability phases to crutch him up. And having a huge room that was slowly diminished by his poison attacks would feel much less cheap than the current condition of putting you in a tiny room and filling it with gas with nowhere to escape.

 

For Ruk, assuming he's keeping his Gorgon, I'd put him in a slightly less cluttered room of about the same size he currently has. As much as I hate his bullet attractor it's a solid boss mechanic, giving you a reason to seek cover in a game where that's pretty much a non issue. While I'm against stop and pop gameplay, in a game like this where you can't really do that, having a single boss fight employ what is for the game a different tactic would be a good thing. I would make his fight about the need to take cover from his Gorgon, and finding/making opportunists to return fire. Again no invulnerability needed if you're concerned with maneuvering and seeking cover from a high degree of constant fire.

Edited by Neuhnee
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Those invulnerable states last a lot longer than they should but even so, what would you suggest to do better? How would you design a boss fight that is engaging and strategic without using the "gimmick" techniques that DE did here. The fights aren't perfect, but maybe you could suggest alternatives instead of just saying things are bad.

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I think it's more of a waiting game with most bosses.

 

Kril - You have to wait until he catches on fire, otherwise you cannot damage him - although I have seen people damaging him somehow.

Vor - Although he's one of the easiest bosses I've fought, waiting for his bubble to pop is a long waiting game and it bores me at times.

Ex-Golem - This one is more a sponge, rather than a shielded enemy, because it has three heads, which take a long time to take down. Then it has another stage, where you need to destroy its heads, again. But in the first stage, apart from being like Spongebob, the heads take a long time getting out of cover and opening their weak spots.

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Be glad the new Golem isn't like the final boss in Dark Sector.

 

Can you imagine the pain of having to roll to avoid attacks, then come up and hit glowing weak points that regenerate? It was fine in Dark Sector, due to Aftertouch being able to hit it without it attacking, but it'd be hell in Warframe.

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Kril - You have to wait until he catches on fire, otherwise you cannot damage him - although I have seen people damaging him somehow.

Vor - Although he's one of the easiest bosses I've fought, waiting for his bubble to pop is a long waiting game and it bores me at times.

From my understanding, once you shoot Kril's back and get him frozen, he should take damage during that time. I've heard reports of him being only vulnerable in the back and others say all over but you can damage him. Once he's in flame mode, he's pretty much vulnerable on all sides.

 

As for Vor, I think a good solution is to have his bubble be susceptible to damage and allow players to break it early. I'd suggest it having a visible weak point but apparently those are terrible.

 

Overall, I'm pretty okay with having weak spots and waiting for opportunities to strike, though there's always room for improvement. I'm curious as to what alternatives can be suggested.

Edited by Haldos
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look at that, someone asking for bosses without mechanics.

 

we want mechanics that make sense and don't bore the F*** out of us.

 

i dont mind weak points but being able to do NO damage otherwise is boring as heck. also i have puncture on my rifle i can go through 1 meter of steel 20 cm of flesh should not be an issue.

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From my understanding, once you shoot Kril's back and get him frozen, he should take damage during that time. I've heard reports of him being only vulnerable in the back and others say all over but you can damage him. Once he's in flame mode, he's pretty much vulnerable on all sides.

 

As for Vor, I think a good solution is to have his bubble be susceptible to damage and allow players to break it early. I'd suggest it having a visible weak point but apparently those are terrible.

 

Overall, I'm pretty okay with having weak spots and waiting for opportunities to strike, though there's always room for improvement. I'm curious as to what alternatives can be suggested.

 

I never really understood it, to be honest. He doesn't take damage from the front nor the back, when he's frozen, from my experience. I neither noticed other players doing something different because I was in the heat of the battle.

 

And yes, for the Vor, there should be a weak spot to pop the bubble sooner and leave him susceptible to stun for a few amount of seconds. That way, we wouldn't have to wait almost half a minute to wait for him to finally pop it.

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Honestly I feel like you might just be impatient. J2K isn't like "sit and wait for me to open my mouth then you get one shot." As long as he is attacking you can do damage to him. This is pretty cool and requires some reflexes/skill. Instead of waiting for a mouth to open and getting a free shot, when any of the mouths open he is vulnerable, but so are you. It's a great mechanic imo.

 

The other bosses (namely Vor and Kril) are not that bad, but maybe could use a few slight changes. Being able to break Vor's shield early would be kinda cool, whether it's through damage, or something in the environment that you use.

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Those invulnerable states last a lot longer than they should but even so, what would you suggest to do better? How would you design a boss fight that is engaging and strategic without using the "gimmick" techniques that DE did here. The fights aren't perfect, but maybe you could suggest alternatives instead of just saying things are bad.

 

You are absolutely right, and I apologize. I'm going to edit my original post to make it more productive than just 'oh god, don't make the same mistake a third time'

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we want mechanics that make sense and don't bore the F*** out of us.

 

i dont mind weak points but being able to do NO damage otherwise is boring as heck. also i have puncture on my rifle i can go through 1 meter of steel 20 cm of flesh should not be an issue.

 

Having bosses without any sort of shielding or invulnerability would just end up making them bullet sponges again. DE needs to counteract how overwhelmingly powerful players become. So either they give strategic moments where a boss is invulnerable, or they nerf down how strong we can become. Without those invulnerable periods Lephantis has (and his damage cap per second) a typical high level player would be able to kill each of his heads within seconds. Not fun, and not engaging.

 

My proposal ends up making said bosses harder. They STAY invulnerable until you do something to break them out of it. Perhaps have an environmental aspect to it - maybe a powerful fan nearby and if you coax a grineer/corpus/infested lacky in front of it, he goes flying right into the boss to break him out of his invulnerability period for a few moments. That sort of thing.

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we want mechanics that make sense and don't bore the F*** out of us.

 

i dont mind weak points but being able to do NO damage otherwise is boring as heck. also i have puncture on my rifle i can go through 1 meter of steel 20 cm of flesh should not be an issue.

 

Agreed-ish. Invul phases should be ended by the player performing an action.

 

Vor - invul ends when you kill the troops

Krill - invul ends when you blow a hose in backpack

J2K - invul should end when you shoot something, somewhere, or run under him or whatever,

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Having bosses without any sort of shielding or invulnerability would just end up making them bullet sponges again. DE needs to counteract how overwhelmingly powerful players become. So either they give strategic moments where a boss is invulnerable, or they nerf down how strong we can become. Without those invulnerable periods Lephantis has (and his damage cap per second) a typical high level player would be able to kill each of his heads within seconds. Not fun, and not engaging.

 

My proposal ends up making said bosses harder. They STAY invulnerable until you do something to break them out of it. Perhaps have an environmental aspect to it - maybe a powerful fan nearby and if you coax a grineer/corpus/infested lacky in front of it, he goes flying right into the boss to break him out of his invulnerability period for a few moments. That sort of thing.

Why not just go the 'nerf how strong we can become' route? This game has WAY too much numerical scaling right now.

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Why not just go the 'nerf how strong we can become' route? This game has WAY too much numerical scaling right now.

Because then you piss off the other half of the playerbase that thinks the game is either challenging or even a bit too challenging.

 

And then DE changes the game for them, pissing off the previous half of the playerbase who thinks the game is too easy.

 

Repeat ad nausem until DE finally gets around to realizing it should just fix the game's scaling in general since they can't really address the scaling problems by just changing one side.

 

I prefer we just skip right to the end of this sequence of future events.

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This mostly makes sense from a farming perspective. "I hate waiting on bosses invulnerability stage because I'm just blowing through them as quickly as possible." 

If bosses were more difficult/more rewarding you'd see less complaining. Golem is the sweet spot. 

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Please Don't Make Ruk As Gimiky As Vor And J2K

^^ that one is all on the players

 

 

The first hours of U9, Vor wasn't gimmicky at he actually fun, FUN, and intense to play but ppl complained that he was hard to fight against. Then came the Vor nerfs, after Vor nerf, then after DE realized he's become too easy and players were just blowing him up they added damage gating. That was new content ruined by people complaining.

Edited by WarG0d
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So, let me get this right, you want bosses that have mechanics that can be blasted through with brute force via high powered weapons and no downtime in the fights. Essentially, you want bosses that can be steam rolled for speed farming.

 

Got it.

But an invincible barrier only makes you question why they don't use it on other stuff.

 

Why not place it between a door or at the exit on a map so that the Warframes can't escape? Why not surround the Reactor with it?

 

Why not make one for the entire ship? If Vor can carry around a personal one you should be able to make a reactor big enough for it to shield the entire ship.

 

These invincible barriers just slow things down and make it boring. It adds no tension to it because if you can beat one stage you can beat them all. 

 

They can try to hide their weakness but it should be able to get out through brute force and it shouldn't make them immune to damage if you have the right mods.

Because things should make sense and having puncture mods at 1.2 Meter means I can pierce the boss but not deal any damage to it? What kind of logic is that?

 

Bosses will be farmed no matter what, invincible barriers will not make us lose but just drag out a battle that does not need to be dragged out.

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this topic. that video.  that is warframe.  and yes bosses nee dto not have that invulnerability, and I agree on krill and ruk since it's not like vor's $&*&*#(%& regen bubble.

 

if we're gonna have it be action as warframe is meant to be, bosses shouldn't have that if we can't.  so we can actually move and fight where strategy and reaction enable more for us.

 

also, lol that guy on speed farming.  no we don't want that.  we want bosses to take more strategy and not just oh it's invulnerable.....wait.....wait....ok now fire.  yes it would speed things up, but it'd also lose that clunky feel of some A****** driving in front of you that keeps speeding up, slowing down and/or stopping.  because I hate those people.

 

I mean hell, we could have certain warframes make specific bosses easier because of x or y mechanic in one or more of their skills.  THIS is what I think more want.

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Damage capping like they do on the new golem is stupid. I'd rather have quicker fights than weapons that just don't do what they are supposed to for a pointless and arbitrary reason. Weak points wouldn't be as annoying if there was a way to force them open, and as others have said, why can my rifle with shred shoot through a steel bulkhead but not the fleshy covering over the weak points.

I don't mind interesting mechanics, but make sure they are LOGICAL interesting mechanics.

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So, let me get this right, you want bosses that have mechanics that can be blasted through with brute force via high powered weapons and no downtime in the fights. Essentially, you want bosses that can be steam rolled for speed farming.

 

Got it.

 

No, just bosses that have mechanics that can be blasted through with brute force via high powered weapons and no downtime in the fights. That's kind of the idea of the game, to amass power and make yourself an unstoppable murder machine. What's the point of maximizing out Serration if it doesn't help you kill things any faster? Why would we devote time to farming Focus and Cores to make out powers stronger if there are invulnerability phases making fights last equally long regardless of your min/maxing efforts?

 

What farming? I'm an explorer, I don't farm bosses for mats, I've got stacks of mats lying about from all the crates and lockers I've mercilessly murdered. And they don't have any mechanics at all.

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