Wukong Revisit

[Thebel]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

you're probably questioning ...why are you refusing to give wukong the ability to recharge his passive?...because that'd be way too OP...he doesn't need another defy anymore...and if DE actually added that then chances are they're going to remove the buffs

 

Why would anyone argue for that? Getting extra revives is already so pointless why would you make it even more redundant by letting you recharge it? If Wu Kong was a revival based frame I'd understand but having extra revives + regening lives would be so horribly pointless for 99% of content. He's really just trying to argue for either a second passive that isn't so situational/pointless (*cough* Ember) or just getting a single passive that has value in all levels of content. He's not even suggesting anything game-breaking by suggesting an extra jump + evasion lol

 

Let's be fair, it's pretty hard to die in WF after you've played long enough and have a normal selection of mods, more so when you have a frame with self-sustain. I could see this on a glass frame but on Wu Kong, it's overkill/pointless. But I think that just goes into passives as whole in WF. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 2019-06-13 at 2:32 PM, DeMonkey said:

I'll take 3 instances of increased loot/energy/invulnerability whatever over an additional 2 seconds of combo time, which still leaves the duration so short I have to use a mod for it anyway.

Well technically you did get what you asked for.

But hey, if there was any time to complain to get additional changes done it's now so keep at it.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Well technically you did get what you asked for.

But hey, if there was any time to complain to get additional changes done it's now so keep at it.

Hey now, I said I'd take it over the previous one, not that the new one was flawless. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Hey now, I said I'd take it over the previous one, not that the new one was flawless. 

There really is no winning with talking about passives though.

Excal gets a buff to swords, people will ask why aren't heavy swords included.

Gara gets a random blind and people will complain that it can't be controlled.

Ember gets the stupid heat proc thing and people will complain and say Ember should be immune to fire, Frost should be immune to cold ect.

There will be no pleasing everyone. It's honestly DEs lack of rule and structure when it comes to this game that grants them the creative freedom to do whatever they want with whatever frame they want. However, it leaves others questioning why their favorite frame didn't get special treatment like "xx" frame, when there is literally no actual answer.

Back to Wukong..

I'm very disheartened by the revelation of the lack of effectiveness of the clone in melee mode. Being slow and not attacking at the proper range is pretty serious. I hope these are exaggerations I'm reading.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

There really is no winning with talking about passives though.

Perhaps, but I'm still going to try.

1 minute ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I hope these are exaggerations I'm reading.

I wish, but I'm not one for exaggerating my feedback. It really does run right up to the enemy before it attacks, it doesn't have the speed buff they mentioned and it will regularly teleport back before hitting the enemy.

[Nerf_SupYo]

Adding to my wish list:

- Cloudwalker triggers a blind on exit

- Celestial Twin has brief invulnerability phase where it charges up damage to scale with enemy level (like saryns molt)

- Celestial Twin's melee is identical to the build you have equipped (maybe it's already like this, not sure yet) and most specifically

- Celestial Twin can be put in different attack modes (sort of like Venari), melee mode, primary fire only, or a healing aura sorta thing

[MJ12]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean... would it really be wrong if Wukong were encouraged to trigger his passive? Not only could it make for a higher-risk playstyle and encourage more skill expression in managing that risk, it could also answer the concern of his passive currently having no major function in most of Wukong's combat.

DE's design intention is that you shouldn't be rewarded for deliberately offing yourself, and as you yourself mentioned in a prior thread DE doesn't consider deliberate self-harm to be some sort of feature that should be rewarded (hence the bugfixes to Spare Parts farming, for example, or the fixes to Link so it doesn't transmit self-damage). So I think this isn't inherently a bad design suggestion or whatever, it's just not meshing with the intent around the passive.

So I don't think it's 'wrong' if Wukong was encouraged to trigger his passive, I just think that the suggestion reflects a very different combat paradigm which DE doesn't seem to like that much.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That could fix the bit at the end, but not the channel itself, which disables all of Wukong's other actions. The main criticism I'm making of Defy is that it severely restricts Wukong's range of moves while in effect, so unless the entire move were to be performed by a clone (which I guess could be another potential direction), simply having the end bit get changed wouldn't entirely fix it.

I think the intent of the devs is that they don't want you to just constantly spam Defy's invulnerability, so it'd probably have to come with some restrictions. Given that, what I think might be better is if Defy's invulnerability came with a significant damage debuff (let's say -75% just as a random napkin number?) but otherwise did not restrict you from taking actions, and Wukong spawns a short-lived clone to deal the reflected damage.

So you can act freely and shoot while in Defy, but you're going to be doing a lot less damage (discouraging you from building for duration/efficiency and constantly spamming it to have eternal invulnerability).

[Azamagon]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I'm very disheartened by the revelation of the lack of effectiveness of the clone in melee mode. Being slow and not attacking at the proper range is pretty serious. I hope these are exaggerations I'm reading.

Oh, the clone in melee mode being complete and utter garbage is the truth alright. The Twin's capability to use melee weapons is more or less as good as Lunaro is popular.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

I kinda feel like you deserve it when arguing that a passive that only works at high level, adds nothing to a playstyle and doesn't synergise in any way is "amazing and balanced"

 

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

It would however be something that we could use at any level. For clarity I proposed 2 additional jumps as well as evasion in air, just as an example of course.

Doesn't matter whether it's "needed", doesn't matter whether it would make a difference. It would be a bit of fun that can be used at any level.

i think you're contradicting yourself here...you complain that this passive "adds nothing to a playstyle and doesn't synergise in any way"...yet you suggest to add a passive that "Doesn't matter whether it's "needed", doesn't matter whether it would make a difference."

...sooo yeah

to close this off on my side, in my opinion i think i love his passive, it fits his theme and the 5 retaliation buffs are cool....... i mean sure i won't need it at level 20 something...but extra lives is useful in all levels that are serious enough...

 

if you want to add an extra passive...that's cool, i'm not complaining, fight for it...as long as they don't change this one 

[Milinko]

Overall I think it is very good but I have some gripes but I mean who doesn't with any type of change, Welcome to my Ted Talk

1. Cloud Walker - This is in response to Pablo during the Dev Workshop stream and he said the cloud walker has a set speed because in his words " it is very fast already, so I don't think you will want to go any faster" um sir do you not understand what MEMES are.
   1. Also going in and out of the cloudwalker does slow you down a little bit its just a bit awkward when moving so fast to going extremely slow  
   2. That's about it for cloudwalker I wanna go faster for memes with power-strength 
2. Celestial Twin - I don't know if its a bug but when I try to target someone and press 1 more than once it just re-summons the clone
3. Defy -  Why is there a cap on the armor like there isn't one on Rhino there isn't one on Nezha, but there is one on Wukong I have more to say about that along with something Pablo said involving "healing on demand"
4. Primal Fury - Why is this so friggin smooth now like my only complaint about Primal fURY IS THAT IT IS JUST ABSOLUTELY AWESOME AND SMOOTH AND CONNECTS TO EVERYTHING MID SWITCHING COMBOS ANIMATION CANCELS GUN SWITCHING OOOOH BABY SOOO GOOD ... too good.
5. His passive 5 levels of delaying the inevitable - 
   1. So lets start with if and when you die for the third time THATS IT NO MORE PASSIVE you are mortal now
   2. I would feel a little better if it was only one that refreshed everytime you revived for real. That way it would at least be consistent 
   3. Ultimately I believe that his passive should just be different like (Nerd alert) in Journey to the West Wukong has a lot of abilities that can be turned into passives
      1. The power of wind- on damaged wind comes to wukongs aid doing an aoe knockdown on nearby enemies
         1. or increases movement speed
         2. or both
      2. Protective circle- on slam attacks make a wall enemies can't pass
      3. Lock Pick - melee consoles and the unlock instantly
      4. Freeze- I cant remember how this works in J2TW but he can freeze people
      5. Golden Gaze- he can see enemies through walls
      6. He can friggin summon other Gods(this ones pushing it I know but I think it would be funny) Imagine summoning Nezha or atlas spector mid mission and having a wukong spector that summons another clone and Nezha
      7. My personal favorite his avoidance charms that just make him immune to the elements- you could just make this a weakened version of adaptation
   4. ALL THESE CHOICES AND  inconsistent immortality was what was chosen.
   5. Pablo said it's the way it is, (also his defy) capped, because he has "healing on demand, which frames like Nezha don't have" so my response to that is 
      1. Nezha does healing on demand... technically.
      2. Everyone has healing on demand
         1. Healing Return
         2. Life Strike
         3. Trinity Specter
         4. Oberon Spector
         5. Winds of Purity
         6. AND THE GRAND DADDY OF THEM ALL THE ONE I HAVE BEEN USING SINCE I GOT ACCESS TO WHICH IS BEFORE WUKONG - HEALING PLATES

Honestly I like the rework and am fine if the clones AI is improved a bit and stays like this these are just some things I thought could be an improvement.

[Thebel]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

to close this off on my side, in my opinion i think i love his passive, it fits his theme and the 5 retaliation buffs are cool....... i mean sure i won't need it at level 20 something...but extra lives is useful in all levels that are serious enough...

But are they? How often are people even dying even in sorties unless you're talking Rad hazard with AoE spam frames? If you're running sorties you probably have the basic mods that would let Wu Kong survive easily in that content, and I'm not even talking about any corrupted mods or anything rare. So would those extra lives actually be useful and impact or even effect you in anyway?

[DeMonkey]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

i think you're contradicting yourself here...you complain that this passive "adds nothing to a playstyle and doesn't synergise in any way"...yet you suggest to add a passive that "Doesn't matter whether it's "needed", doesn't matter whether it would make a difference."

Feels like I'm talking to a wall...

42 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

if you want to add an extra passive...that's cool, i'm not complaining, fight for it...as long as they don't change this one 

You say you're not complaining and I should fight for the addition of another passive, but that's pretty much what I did and you complained. 

[Nerf_SupYo]

4 hours ago, Thebel said:

I'd argue that if it doesn't synergize, it just looks lazy even if it fits with the frame's theme. I mean look at Ember, energy regen + power str while on fire. Doesn't synergize that well since you'll probably have WoF up and can't regen energy during it. Certainly fits Ember's theme but still doesn't change the fact it's far from great.

I think a flat melee combo counter duration buff like naramon would be great on its own, it is (one of the) melee oriented frames so methinks it would make sense. Easy to do, no creativity required, voila.

[Borg1611]

His passive is pretty awful. The thing is, if you compare it to all other warframes, a lot of other passives are worse, so you can just sort of shrug it off as him not getting a top tier passive, but at least he got one that has some value compared to many passives that have zero value. If you compare it specifically just to survival passives, Nidus' passive is just dramatically superior and it makes sense to compare survival passives to other survival passives, which is why I think a lot of people will be annoyed by it, especially given Wukong use to be quasi immortal rather than have a few additional lives. 

In any situation in which the passive would actually proc, there's probably a ton of damage going out (really high level enemies). In that scenario, two seconds of invulnerability isn't that useful. Only two of his random buffs are relevant in that scenario because the only buffs you'd care about at that time are the survival buffs and at most you'd only get each one once if you were lucky. If it's procing, you may have also reached a point where the 1.5k armor cap of defy even on top of adaptation and a health mod and maybe even an armor mod isn't cutting it anymore. If you're actually playing in that type of content, it's probably frustrating knowing there are other frames that can still survive better at that level and Wukong use to be able to as well.

Maybe they should just buff defy to scale better into higher level content and let his survival be all about that ability and consider changing his passive to stick to the same luck based theme, but have a way of procing it all the time while playing him. For example, every time he or his clone kill an enemy, have a 1% chance of procing one of his buffs. 

[Nerf_SupYo]

3 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

His passive is pretty awful. The thing is, if you compare it to all other warframes, a lot of other passives are worse, so you can just sort of shrug it off as him not getting a top tier passive, but at least he got one that has some value compared to many passives that have zero value. If you compare it specifically just to survival passives, Nidus' passive is just dramatically superior and it makes sense to compare survival passives to other survival passives, which is why I think a lot of people will be annoyed by it, especially given Wukong use to be quasi immortal rather than have a few additional lives. 

In any situation in which the passive would actually proc, there's probably a ton of damage going out (really high level enemies). In that scenario, two seconds of invulnerability isn't that useful. Only two of his random buffs are relevant in that scenario because the only buffs you'd care about at that time are the survival buffs and at most you'd only get each one once if you were lucky. If it's procing, you may have also reached a point where the 1.5k armor cap of defy even on top of adaptation and a health mod and maybe even an armor mod isn't cutting it anymore. If you're actually playing in that type of content, it's probably frustrating knowing there are other frames that can still survive better at that level and Wukong use to be able to as well.

Maybe they should just buff defy to scale better into higher level content and let his survival be all about that ability and consider changing his passive to stick to the same luck based theme, but have a way of procing it all the time while playing him. For example, every time he or his clone kill an enemy, have a 1% chance of procing one of his buffs. 

Right, or just clone Hildryn's with some minor twist, something useful instead of half baked gimmicks.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

From what i have seen.

I always said cloud walker could be useful if they properly buffed it. Nice to see i was right.

Not impressed by the new defy. Taunt and aoe seem kinda pointless.

Twin, no real issues there.

Likewise with fury.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Feels like I'm talking to a wall...

You say you're not complaining and I should fight for the addition of another passive, but that's pretty much what I did and you complained. 

i'm getting tired of this🙄...i'm only complaining that you think this passive should be rechargable...or you think it "adds nothing to a playstyle and doesn't synergise in any way"

 

look i'm not even gonna bother, i don't like your tone in this conversation anyway😒 

but at least you're not one of those players i encountered that say "My problem with the Rework as it did nothing to fix the problems that Wukong has. All it really did was give him some Quality of Life changes, and remove his one and only useful trait." that's an actual comment from a braindead player who's too salty that wukong's defy got removed...so there's that

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

i'm only complaining that you think this passive should be rechargable

I don't, not really, that's why my OP specifies an additional passive first and foremost with an argument mentioning Inaros in favour of it, with "or not so limited" being the second thing I mention. Not so limited doesn't mean "rechargeable", so that's a strawman.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

or you think it "adds nothing to a playstyle and doesn't synergise in any way"

Because it doesn't.

What does "ignore 3 lethal blows" add to his playstyle? How does it synergise with any of his other abilities? Genuine curiosity.

[r0ckwolf]

Wukong Rework Feedback

 

Let me start by saying that i think the Rework is a overall fantastic success. Wukong went from a Frame that i literrally never played, to one that i will play constantly from now on.

The Clone is a great addition to his Kit and so much Fun to play around with, the changes to his 2 and 4 are great and make them feel much more powerful. And his 3^rd ability, while many may think is a nerf, i think is a perfect tool for his kit.

Overall everything works great together and the Frame feels much more active and fun to use, while still retaining the spirit of the original design.

And yes, if you build and play him competently, he still is immortal.

 

I do have some observations after 2 days of intensive stress testing and formaing. I hope these will be received as they are meant: Constructive Feedback.

 

1.

His Second Ability incentivizes to Heal the Clone. Paying attention to your clones Health and trying actively to keep him alive, seems like a great concept, however there is no real ingame reason to pay attention to this, since you can reacast the clone at any time for almost no energy, with no downside.Trying actively to heal your clone or even care if hes close to death is therefore irrelevant.

It would be cool if the clone in some way would get stronger over time. A damage buff for each enemy killed fe. would be one way to achieve this. - This would make it into more of a minigame to micromanage trying to keep your clone alive. While resummoning him comes with the penalty of losing the buffs you worked for over time.

 

2.

His 3^rd Ability, while generally fantastic, has one really weird thing that bugs the hell out of me.

• It is not a Mellee Hit! -

So the damage absorption generally works great vs mid to high level enemys, but using the Ability can take long enough for it to break your combo. Even more annoying and relevant though is that it´s very weak vs low level enemys, beacuse it has no damage attached to it whatsoever. This makes the Ability practically useless against any enemys below level 30.

My suggestion would be to make the spin attack at the end of your 3^rd Ability into a regular Mellee Hit from your Staff. Keep the extra damage absorption as it is, but let it work as a regular mellee in addition, that like any mellee attack works with the Combo Counter. This would help make the Ability much more potent in lower levels while adding more synergy in high levels.

 

I´m curious what everyone thinks and if you guys agree or disagree with my observations.

I however would love these small things to get added.

 

Thanks for reading and greetings

r0ckwolf

Edited June 22, 2019 by r0ckwolf

[AbstractLemons]

Clone is almost perfect it needs AI adjustments, It will shoot at walls or when using beam weapons aim at enemies to far out of range.

On the flip side it doesn't make use of the length of the longer melee weapons. 

other than that I think its a great rework and the addition of the original posts suggestions would make it even better.

[Lupgarou]

so what im not getting atm is that when you die you lose a portion of your full health-- and it doesn't come back?

IE

I have 975 health, if I die, my health goes down to 720 and stays there-- it doesn't go back up to 975......

[KulfWolf]

Currently specters with melee weapons are almost too useless, they don't attack constantly with it, sometime stand around doing nothing, and the issue you mentioned is that they have a long range weapon but they still run close till they can kiss the enemy before attacking.

Specter AI need to be changed for melee to be worth anything, if that's too much work then let wuclone switch between primary and secondary instead of melee. At least that'd make it more useful.

[AbstractLemons]

Id like the clone to be a bit smarter if they can manage it.

Celestial twin AI issues:

Celestial Twin will shoot at walls if there is an enemy behind it. (hoping this is fixable)

Celestial Twin doesn't acknowledge range for any weapon as in doesn't matter what melee weapon its using it will always go into kissing distance to slap the enemy with it. (Dunno if fixable)

Celestial twin doesn't acknowledge range on beam weaponry and will shoot at enemies beyond the length of the weapon. (hoping this is fixable)

 

 

[BloodKitten]

i notice the clone despawn at extraction zone, reguardless if you are extracting, have a countdown, , or just get there befor the objective is completed (i do it for some exterminate and let the enemies come to me on solo), could the clone not despawn untill extraction scene is happening?

as a side note, would love if his teleport range would be bigger. he constantly trying to get to a spot that is outside the respawn range, or trying to back away somewhere and ending up in a loop of sorts, perhaps a 50-70 distance units would be better? can always cloud walk to teleport him if needed, with melee weapons, he act properly, but dosent work with redeemer for whatever reason.

[skbenga]

Hi i would like to point out that if you have toggle sprint toggled on and then use cloud walker, when you leave cloudwalker sprint is toggled off.

Would be great if it didnt.

many thanks.