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Wukong Revisit


DeMonkey
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4 minutes ago, BloodKitten said:

i notice the clone despawn at extraction zone, reguardless if you are extracting, have a countdown, , or just get there befor the objective is completed (i do it for some exterminate and let the enemies come to me on solo), could the clone not despawn untill extraction scene is happening?

Just don't step into the extraction zone. Stay a few meters away from it.

4 minutes ago, BloodKitten said:

as a side note, would love if his teleport range would be bigger. he constantly trying to get to a spot that is outside the respawn range, or trying to back away somewhere and ending up in a loop of sorts, perhaps a 50-70 distance units would be better? can always cloud walk to teleport him if needed, with melee weapons, he act properly, but dosent work with redeemer for whatever reason.

We have to remember that the clone is his 1. He has no duration and is rather strong. The range is some sort of balance and totally fine. You know, you can always move your Warframe...

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Until AI gets updated and can use melee effectively, letting them use melee is just a mistake. They either chase enemy around not attacking (even with a long range melee) or they just hit a few times and stop attacking.

Please change that wuclone switch between primary and secondary instead of useless melee, what's worse, if we use Wukong's 4, it basically makes his wuclone worse because now instead of using a gun, it's using it's useless melee AI.

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29 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

The range is some sort of balance and totally fine

No. Just no.

There are limits to what is justifiable. Watching the clone charge an enemy with it's melee weapon only to teleport back to you repeatedly because it ran out of range is not "balanced" or "totally fine".

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7 hours ago, Lupgarou said:

so what im not getting atm is that when you die you lose a portion of your full health-- and it doesn't come back?

IE

I have 975 health, if I die, my health goes down to 720 and stays there-- it doesn't go back up to 975......

That shouldn't be happening unless you're dying as Operator.

6 hours ago, KulfWolf said:

Currently specters with melee weapons are almost too useless, they don't attack constantly with it, sometime stand around doing nothing, and the issue you mentioned is that they have a long range weapon but they still run close till they can kiss the enemy before attacking.

Specter AI need to be changed for melee to be worth anything, if that's too much work then let wuclone switch between primary and secondary instead of melee. At least that'd make it more useful.

My friend currently runs without a melee weapon so that the clone always uses a gun, however that means not using Primal Fury either...

I really hope we get some major fixes post-weekend.

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6 hours ago, KulfWolf said:

Currently specters with melee weapons are almost too useless, they don't attack constantly with it, sometime stand around doing nothing, and the issue you mentioned is that they have a long range weapon but they still run close till they can kiss the enemy before attacking.

Specter AI need to be changed for melee to be worth anything, if that's too much work then let wuclone switch between primary and secondary instead of melee. At least that'd make it more useful.

Pretty much my only gripe with what is otherwise an excellent rework.

I would love to use the Pocket Rihno augment as my main build, but the dummy AI makes it an exercise in frustration - sometimes it will flat out ignore your commands, several times in a row, while just standing there, looking not-so-pretty ('casue it's Wukong). Sometimes it will do the stomp, but with a few seconds delay. Sadly, unreliable CC = useless CC. The stomp command should take top priority and have the ability to interrupt all other animations/actions for Wuclone.

As for the general derpiness of the AI in melee, the only thing I can think off, it's dialling up it aggression. It's been a while since I fought any AI controlled warframes, but I recall Excal Umbra, Stalker, and even the spectres guarding the rails, being far more in-your-face than Wuclone, who is more prone to leisurely strolls on the battlefield than anything else. But maybe that's just my faulty memory.

 

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38 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No. Just no.

There are limits to what is justifiable. Watching the clone charge an enemy with it's melee weapon only to teleport back to you repeatedly because it ran out of range is not "balanced" or "totally fine".

Than that's less about the range, and more about the A.I. The Clone should check if he can attack the enemy without leaving the range. If he has to leave the range, then he won't attack.

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12 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Than that's less about the range, and more about the A.I. The Clone should check if he can attack the enemy without leaving the range. If he has to leave the range, then he won't attack.

And if the enemy decides to run backwards? Or you're moving slightly in a different direction?

This requires more than just "only targets an enemy if it's in range".

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11 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

And if the enemy decides to run backwards? Or you're moving slightly in a different direction?

This requires more than just "only targets an enemy if it's in range".

What you mentioned will also happen with a buffed range. If the A.I. is stupid enough to target enemies he can't reach we will always run in this kind of situation. I had Kavats running around on a different floor of a Corpus Ship because it had enemies to kill and it didn't want to come back to me, all because the A.I. isn't smart enough.

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I wonder how long DE will neglect the AI in this game. Kubrows have already went totally ignored for several years, and if kavats didn't have their passive buffs they would be totally useless as well. Enemies run in circles in mission even when ''alerted'' and they run straight forward to their death as if their life had no value at all. That being said, the only challenge in this game comes from AoE attacks that do not depend on enemy AI in the slightest.

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1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

What you mentioned will also happen with a buffed range.

I'm not proposing just a buffed range.

1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

If the A.I. is stupid enough to target enemies he can't reach we will always run in this kind of situation.

If the pull back range were extended the issue would be less pronounced.

Ultimately I'm just arguing against this being a form of "balance" and "totally fine". I mean, as you yourself just stated it's because of stupid AI. Are you suggesting that stupid AI is a balancing feature?

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Ultimately I'm just arguing against this being a form of "balance" and "totally fine". I mean, as you yourself just stated it's because of stupid AI. Are you suggesting that stupid AI is a balancing feature?

Oh, I didn't say it's totally fine.
I just said that buffing the range just like OP suggested (and OP suggested some big numbers) is in stark contrast to what the skill is. It's a 1. That#s what we always have to remember.
Sure, buffing the range a bit wouldn hurt. But OP wants to make it stupidly big.
And again, even if the range were buffed, they need to do something to the A.I. If not, we will have this kind of thread over and over again, because the clone just wants to go on a walk.

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2 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Oh, I didn't say it's totally fine.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteMarker said:

We have to remember that the clone is his 1. He has no duration and is rather strong. The range is some sort of balance and totally fine. You know, you can always move your Warframe...

 

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17 hours ago, MJ12 said:

DE's design intention is that you shouldn't be rewarded for deliberately offing yourself, and as you yourself mentioned in a prior thread DE doesn't consider deliberate self-harm to be some sort of feature that should be rewarded (hence the bugfixes to Spare Parts farming, for example, or the fixes to Link so it doesn't transmit self-damage). So I think this isn't inherently a bad design suggestion or whatever, it's just not meshing with the intent around the passive.

I can agree that DE doesn't want to reward players for outright killing themselves or their allies, and I also agree that DE tends to consider deliberate self-harm exploitative, but then DE also does seem to want to encourage players to put themselves at greater risk in other circumstances, which was implemented successfully on Garuda (who has a self-damage button precisely to that effect). Perhaps that was not the intent with Wukong, as the current implementation seems to be to make him a safe frame, more than a risky one, though I think the intent there can also be challenged, as it would likely be more interesting to make the Wukong player have to work for their next revive (and reap more interesting benefits if they do so), rather than just have them sit on three free extra revives per mission.

I have this other design post in mind on abilities I should post at some point, but I think one of the core functions of any passive should be to set some sort of goal the player can work towards to achieve greater results: Wisp's passive, for example, is meant to encourage her to stay airborne as much as she can for a stealth/survivability boost. When you constantly have this carrot held up in front of you, encouraging you to change your playstyle up a bit, that makes for a passive one can truly appreciate: by contrast, when the passive just gives power, without any real gameplay, it tends to be less likeable or noticeable. In Wukong's case, his new passive really adds no real additional gameplay (it's just a bunch of extra revives with some general power boosts on top), and its relatively niche functionality means that the frame mostly feels like he doesn't really have a passive. Setting this goal for the player to work towards as part of the passive, by contrast, would likely make it feel more present in the player's mind, even if the end result is largely the same (i.e. extra revives).

17 hours ago, MJ12 said:

I think the intent of the devs is that they don't want you to just constantly spam Defy's invulnerability, so it'd probably have to come with some restrictions. Given that, what I think might be better is if Defy's invulnerability came with a significant damage debuff (let's say -75% just as a random napkin number?) but otherwise did not restrict you from taking actions, and Wukong spawns a short-lived clone to deal the reflected damage.

This I can agree much more with: I think one of the biggest problems with a lot of abilities in the current game is that they offer an effect that can be unhealthy when spammed... in a game where our ability gating is so broken that we can spam practically anything. Invulnerability is one of those effects, and I agree that it would become a problem if there were no tradeoff to turning it on, though I also think loss of control is pretty much never a good idea to implement in a game like Warframe either. A damage debuff could work, though I feel the core issue to be resolved is that the ability should only feel useful if well-timed, i.e. done when taking heavy damage in a crowd, rather than simply activated non-stop for permanent invulnerability (which a damage debuff may not fully address if one is simply zipping towards an objective and not trying to fight anyone).

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Wukong's 1st is a passive.

It is not timed skill

Not consuming any energy

Why isn't this a passive instead and give me a skill that acually 

 usable, pushable energy consuming, timed skills thats all I want Is it really hard to think up 4 skills?!!! PLEASE?!!

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8 minutes ago, 40PE said:

Why isn't this a passive instead and give me a skill that acually 

Well, it’s got a ‘push to target enemy’ feature. Maybe that is why? Or, the frame already had a passive and it was a fairly late decision to change the first ability (it’s fairly easy to add synergy to a clone). I find it to be less interactive than Defy used to be (and less useful). A different ability certainly would have been better. 

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1 minute ago, krc473 said:

Well, it’s got a ‘push to target enemy’ feature. Maybe that is why? Or, the frame already had a passive and it was a fairly late decision to change the first ability (it’s fairly easy to add synergy to a clone). I find it to be less interactive than Defy used to be (and less useful). A different ability certainly would have been better. 

Youre right. There is an ability to be usable on choice. However so dar I rather used another skill or I was just using my weapons instead of releaaing the "dps" button and push the 1st skill thus command the clone to start *try* to get to an enemy that Ill kill in the next 1.5seconds. Since he is behind me shooting, or running toward an enemy who is just aproaching us.

My clone is a laugh, I don't really do anything with it he is just "THERE". 🙂

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19 minutes ago, 40PE said:

Youre right. There is an ability to be usable on choice. However so dar I rather used another skill or I was just using my weapons instead of releaaing the "dps" button and push the 1st skill thus command the clone to start *try* to get to an enemy that Ill kill in the next 1.5seconds. Since he is behind me shooting, or running toward an enemy who is just aproaching us.

My clone is a laugh, I don't really do anything with it he is just "THERE". 🙂

 You must be playing a different game. The Clone hits pretty hard for a Specter, copies your cast of 3 and is a little dumb sure but mostly helpful.

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Except it also has interactions with his other abilities as well?

The augment makes the targeted attack suspend enemies, Cloud Walker heals and teleports it to you, it mimics Defy when cast, and it'll only use the Iron Staff during Primal Fury.

It does plenty as an ability.

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No it is not. It has effective shield and health points, casting it costs energy, you lose it if you die, you have to recast it if you drop out of bounds from map or you need to reactivate it if it goes to a nullifier bubble. It is much more passive than abilities typically are but then again so is Inaros 4th ability and Rhino's Iron Skin. Passive is something where you have no investment on its effect, since casting Wukong's 1st ability requires action and interaction, it is not applicable to describe it as a passive.

Edited by BETAOPTICS
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Wukongs clone with a decent primary or even melee is pretty #*!%ing powerful. I gave it the Exegris and he destroyed lvl125 enemies like they were nothing. So no the clone should not be a passive simply because it can be disgustingly powerful. (And I hope it stays that way. At least nowadays DE is not nerfing as much as they did before.)

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