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Wukong Revisit


DeMonkey
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7 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

DE should have never introduced passives. people get stuck on them like they are the end all be all. mags passive is useless. does that diminish her skill set? absolutely not. i play like his passive is not even there because imo it doesnt matter.

It's because people treat passives as 5th abilities.

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1 hour ago, Pacheon said:

I cannot seem to figure it out how to swap my secondary to my clone, without removing my primary entirely from my setup, which is a bit of a bummer. This needs a bit of adjustment, like doing it equinox-style? Last equiped weapon parses to the twin, when player is using melee.

What are your thoughts on a method for forcing the clone to change weapon?

E.g. Targeting an enemy for the clone forces the clone to swap to whatever weapon you're currently holding. 

See a Bursa? Pull out your Corrosive weapon, target the Bursa and your clone pulls out the Corrosive one as well.

Nullifiers approaching? Pull out your high fire rate weapon and target the Nullifier resulting in the clone stopping it's charge and pulling out a more useful weapon.

6 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

people get stuck on them like they are the end all be all.

Whilst I certainly don't feel that way, I do think they can be quite important to a kit. Atlas for example has a really interesting (imo) passive with regards to his rubble mechanic. It may not be good, it may not even help his kit that much, but it adds a lot to it.

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4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Whilst I certainly don't feel that way, I do think they can be quite important to a kit. Atlas for example has a really interesting (imo) passive with regards to his rubble mechanic. It may not be good, it may not even help his kit that much, but it adds a lot to it.

again here. they could just add rubble armor to petrify, and rumblers (since they both petrify), and make it so while you have rubble armor you also have immovable removing it from being a passive.

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Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

they could just add rubble armor to petrify, and rumblers (since they both petrify), and make it so while you have rubble armor you also have immovable removing it from being a passive.

Or they could just... not do that?

I don't see the issue that you do I'm afraid.

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2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

neither do i see why people are complaining about cheat death passive like his kit fails without it.

Like I said earlier, nor do I. In the same vein however, I really don't see any reason to complain about them existing, unless your point is merely to metacomplain? If that's the case and you really do want to just complain about people complaining about something you disagree on, could I ask that you refrain please? It doesn't really help matters.

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Like I said earlier, nor do I. In the same vein however, I really don't see any reason to complain about them existing, unless your point is merely to metacomplain? If that's the case and you really do want to just complain about people complaining about something you disagree on, could I ask that you refrain please? It doesn't really help matters.

just voicing a concern. id hate to see DE do something drastic because one side is complaining about his passive and there is no counter argument. you've read all my posts in this thread you can make your own decision of what im trying to say.

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38 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

What are your thoughts on a method for forcing the clone to change weapon?

E.g. Targeting an enemy for the clone forces the clone to swap to whatever weapon you're currently holding. 

See a Bursa? Pull out your Corrosive weapon, target the Bursa and your clone pulls out the Corrosive one as well.

Nullifiers approaching? Pull out your high fire rate weapon and target the Nullifier resulting in the clone stopping it's charge and pulling out a more useful weapon.

Only problem is that you can't target nullifiers since it counts as an ability. A demolyst will also clear the mark every time it does the nullifying pulse.

My suggestion would be giving it a cycling mechanic like Venari or Quiver, so if you press 1 when you're not targeting any enemy or an enemy that already has a mark you can cycle through primary, secondary and melee.

On a side note, has anyone tested if the clone benefits from Adaptation? I know that it copies all mods, but given how Adaptation works I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work properly on the clone

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10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The new passive's alright, though honestly I feel it could be more interesting/consistent if the passive operated on a recharge mechanism, rather than a limited set of "free" revives (having three revives out of five also feels a bit thematically weird): if Wukong only had one self-revive at his disposal, but could recharge it through certain interactions, e.g. absorbing damage with Defy, stunning people with Cloud Walker, etc., he could get even closer to his old Defy fantasy, but in a much healthier way.

I think the intent on limiting the passive the way it is and making it quasi-random is to ensure that people see the temporary buff given by avoiding death as a "ribbon"-which is the term used by a lot of F2P mobile game players about a secondary nice-to-have benefit of a character skill which isn't its primary focus-instead of thinking of it as some kind of desirable buff that they should build around trying to keep active by deliberately killing themselves to gain those buffs.

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I do think the damage and armor buffs are rather good, but I agree the ability could be done better. In particular, I find the forced spin and interrupt on Wukong's own actions to be fairly clunky, and I think that much makes the damage feels comparatively weak (because it involves holding back on one's damage for an extended amount of time). Here's how I'd change it:

Wouldn't another viable change be to have a very-short-duration Wukong clone do the staff spin at the end? That would remove the interrupt without a drastic rework of how the skill functions.

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3 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Only problem is that you can't target nullifiers since it counts as an ability. A demolyst will also clear the mark every time it does the nullifying pulse.

Interesting, if I were to propose the above then I'd also propose that that simply doesn't happen. Telling your clone to attack a certain target isn't something I can understand being nullified, you aren't affecting the Nulifier, you're communicating with your clone.

Just now, vFlitz said:

On a side note, has anyone tested if the clone benefits from Adaptation?

Worth testing. If you want to give it a try I can chuck you an invite?

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13 минут назад, PitelMolotov сказал:

It should be a bug that Wukong AND Nidus immortality proc happen before Quickthinking energy depletion and at 2hp? Quickthinking should be useful on them.)

(I use it in every Warframe 😝 )

Same here, hoping it's bug not a feature and will be fixed.

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Being one of the dozen or so people who have actually liked him since before the rework ( :tongue:) , yesterday I took him through the sortie, two kuva flood, an arby and like 10 runs of plague star. It's pretty obvious that a lot of people have never used him before now, and that's leading to a bit of over inflation when it comes to this rework. Don't forget to /p people's profiles.
Anyway...

1 - It's a souped-up specter that can effectively never die since it costs nothing to summon, but at the end of the day, it's still just a specter. He'll run at enemy with a melee weapon equipped only to teleport back to your side without actually doing anything, and I've caught him just staring off into the distance quite a few times while he's getting shot in the back. Using the opposite weapon to what you have equipped isn't ideal. If you're taking shots at enemies across the plains, having a melee specter doesn't help much. Likewise if you're in a cramped corpus hallway, cleaning enemies out from behind boxes, him shooting the boxes as he tries to hit the enemies doesn't help either. Don't get me wrong, it's good for a 1st, but the clone should just use the same weapon you are. The main draw is using it with his 4 anyway, but we'll get there in a minute.

2 - Good heals, and that's its purpose. Which pigeonholes you. At the tail end of an arbitration, expect to be spamming this frequently since it replaced Defy as his survivability. It has good synergy with his health pool and Adaptation, and the movement speeds nice, but its a complete 180 from "cast and forget" to "keep your finger over 2 when the enemy level starts to climb. Still good though.

3 - Worthless. Using it accomplishes nothing. Granted you wont get hurt by using it, but it's not going to do anything worthwhile either. You can't do anything other than move during the actual invincible part of the animation. The follow up attack will kill scrub enemies, but so will anything, while it's not going to do much against the tankier guys. Those same scrub enemies aren't going to kill you no matter how much or little armor you have, and at higher levels 1500 armor really isn't as much as it seems. There's an easy way to make this useful though.

Suggestion for his 3 -
- Remove the initial taunt animation, remove the attack animation, remove the armor buff. Double the base duration.
- When activated, Wukong glows to denote the duration. You gain 50% lifesteal with all attacks, and are free to move however you like and use whatever weapon you like.
- If you get killed and then do enough damage to fully heal yourself during the now 4-8 seconds of invincibility you have, you get a random buff off of the list of his passives.

Straight up a very short duration version of Valkyr's 4, only you aren't locked into one weapon type, and it takes advantage of those nice passive buffs that you really aren't ever going to see otherwise. Then give him back his old passive, because combo timer extension is way more valuable than people realize.

4 - Two main thoughts. I absolutely love this ability; I absolutely despise the new combo inputs. Before I get to the combos, the Iron Staff itself is straight up brutal. Great crit and status, with just Primed Pressure and Primed Fever the spin's almost got 10k damage. For those of you who are wondering, the range scales off of the combo meter and Primed Reach, and dumping power range is not a good idea. I was easily mowing down a dozen infested and all of their spawn pods within one combo at the end of plague star runs. Add in your clone in things only get better.

That said, I have one massive problem with his 4. The combo inputs. The sheer amount of expletives I'm refraining from typing in right now. This is a game where you will ALWAYS be moving towards the enemy. Getting closer to the guy you're trying to whack with a stick is instinctual. No matter what the melee stance on your weapon is, no matter how much range it has (and this is a perfect example of that) you will ALWAYS need to adjust your positioning as you melee enemies. This most commonly takes the form of holding forward on the keyboard and turning with the mouse. So when a stance has a hold forward combo on it, you will end up doing that combo more than any other, and you will end up doing that combo when you don't want to. Instead of providing more variety, the only combo I ever end up using is the hold forward, with maybe, maybe a neutral combo here and there. The "gap closer", as other people have noticed, is worthless. A kick and a thrust, both of which are slow and linear, and knock away the enemy you're trying to close on. :facepalm: Thankfully, since they're the only two attacks your going to use, the slide and the hold forward combo are great. But my god I really hope this doesn't get applied to melee as a whole. It completely defeats combo variety, the purpose for which it was rolled out in the first place. Scythe stances are hated, the blue stave stance sucks, anything with a hold forward combo input ends up feeling clunky, and ofc that's what they choose to unify.

Neutral (disregarding forward and backward movement), Hold Block, tap right once (registers while moving forward), tap left once (registers while moving forward). That's all you need to do DE. There's four combo inputs that don't interfere with the execution of said combos. Hold forward shouldn't be registered as an input in any combo.

So, to summarize. His 3 needs tweaks and I despise the combo inputs on his 4, but otherwise, he's alright. He's an exalted murder frame now. However, here's my gripe, which probably isn't going to be shared by anyone, since next to no one used him before now. Oldkong was my go to for Sargas Ruk. He had a purpose; not having to deal with ridiculous hitboxes coming off of Sargas, and picking up anyone Sargas dropped. Now, he can't do that. He's a murder frame, sure, but so is Mag, Mesa, Khora and Saryn. In a way, he gained a more well rounded kit, but he just lost his only actual dedicated use, and personally it feels like a lateral move to a different category. The "good, but not really suited to anything in particular" category, which is full of other frames. Which is why he get's and alright/10.

Oh, and did I mention I hate the new combo inputs?

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8 minutes ago, Hyohakusha said:

Don't forget to /p people's profiles.

Oh I do. My usage % is completely broken with Wukong, so it makes for some interesting comparisons.

For example my usage is a mere 7.1% with him which equals 203.6 hours of my supposed hours. Yet I have over 200,000 kills with him and have reached a maximum affinity of 190.5 million in a single forma.

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2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Worth testing. If you want to give it a try I can chuck you an invite?

Sorry, I wasn't around for a while. But I tried it just now. I aggroed a bombard then moved far enough that the clone ignored it, while the bombard kept shooting at us. The clone was always taking something like 500-600 damage per rocket, while I only took around 70-80 with blast adaptation at 90%. So now I'm quite certain adaptation doesn't work on the clone, which may or may not be a bug.

Other things I'm curious about are mostly melee-related. Like, does the clone have his own combo counter? If not, does he copy your own or simply not benefit from combo counter at all? Same with Primal Rage - does the clone gain his own buff independently, copy your own or not get it at all? These things are much more of a pain to test though since we can't see the clone's damage numbers.

Some pretty niche stuff works on him no problem, like nikana lifesteal from amalgam daikyu mod, so you just never know what to expect at this point really.

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The way Quick Thinking is coded the mod either kicks in or it doesn't regardless of the health damage taken before hand.

Adaptation for instance will not refresh it's stacks if QT activates even if you took Health damage before 2hp.

It's not a well coded and there's even debate on order of operation due to it's wording. "Stop Leathality of damage". Not the damage itself. Thus it can only prevent damage which would otherwise kill you and so makes some sense for Nidus / Wukong. Why it doesn't refresh Adaptation is a whole other thing since damage still occurred.

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4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

DE should have never introduced passives. people get stuck on them like they are the end all be all. mags passive is useless. does that diminish her skill set? absolutely not. i play like his passive is not even there because imo it doesnt matter.

i'll have to disagree.  Don't want to derail Monkey's thread but passives open up the door for much more interesting designs for frames.  Attaching everything to active abilities not only clutters them but makes us even more dependent on casting something constantly.  I can't wait for the day that we start getting dual-like abilities per ability cast.  (like whisp being able to fire a different version of her will-o-wisp with hold to cast.)

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The enveloping cloud mod only works on teammates, not on Wukong himself. Before the rework that was fine because Wukong himself had such a long cloud duration. But with the new super short duration (base 2 seconds) this mod needs to apply to Wukong as well. I cannot see any reason to use this mod if that is not true - you can't stealth a team when one person becomes visible every few seconds between recasts.

Edited by rstripn
added details because post was moved
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Little note on some wuclone issues. It's melee AI is still pretty janky, it may not take into account reach mods as I find it will often need to directly face an enemy within a meter before it will engage with them, it is better to not equip any melee on your wukong to avoid having it use one, which I have had great success with and would recommend. The AI still has major issues recognising walls and has often and repeatedly tried to shoot enemies that are protected/covered, to absolutely no avail.

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5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

What are your thoughts on a method for forcing the clone to change weapon?

E.g. Targeting an enemy for the clone forces the clone to swap to whatever weapon you're currently holding. 

See a Bursa? Pull out your Corrosive weapon, target the Bursa and your clone pulls out the Corrosive one as well.

Nullifiers approaching? Pull out your high fire rate weapon and target the Nullifier resulting in the clone stopping it's charge and pulling out a more useful weapon.

 

Actually, it was quite convenient. Using a slash based melee weapon on my clone while me stripping off armor and proccing viral was quite efficient in all ways. I cannot understand why people deny such mechanics. We should do more than using a single weapon / frame / slide-kill combo.

I am a player who loved playing Unreal Tournament, Devil May Cry and lots of other games strategically, where the weapon is an essential key to succeed at and in specific situations. Having a timeless clone, which even reaches 7k+ health and can aimbot kill enemies far away with hitscan burst/auto weapons or can somewhat use melee efficiently is a good direction. I am even probably going to use Wukong more often than Mesa, Saryn, Inaros and Co.

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Before I get into my opinion I would just like to clarify some things. I liked the old Wukong. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt for this rework. I was excited Pablo reworked it. But I don't like it.
I tried to tone down my opinion so it's less harsh and provide comparative examples from the game to contrast other warframes. However, I've watched a lot of the Nostalgia Critic and Angry Joe so my opinion is probably still rather loud... Sorry.

 

My Opinion on the Wukong Rework

Passive:
I will admit I tested Wukong against nullifiers and his passive works inside them... eghh
3 time use per mission?! That's dumb. I can't think of any other Warframe that starts every mission with the feeling "I've only got 3 of something, better use them carefully." You're allowed 200 energy pads for goodness sakes.
As for the boosts:
Invisibility (Loki, Octavia, Ash, Ivara, need I say more?) (this is useless for him with his 2 anyway, it's just an annoying "well that was a thing... that happened")
More loot (60 seconds? are you kidding me?! Goodness knows we can't have them farming, right Nekros/Hydroid/Khora?)
4x orbs (this would be an interesting ability, if it weren't for the fact you get it only once per mission, at random and it only lasts 60 SECONDS?!)
3x elemental damage (I refer you to the previous buff)
Invincibility ("30 seconds wow[sarcasm] you mean like what he used to do?!")
    How I'd fix
The buffs are bad. If you're going to give us boosts after we die, how about letting them feel like powerful buffs, rather than power farts, and maybe make them refreshable. Have you seen Octavia?
I'd tie the passive in with a reworked 3, see below.

1st:
Better than the old ability, but that's not really saying much. People don't want to depend on an AI to do their damage for them when it feels like it. Honestly, someone who does YOUR damage FOR you, without energy drain/time limit? I'm sorry but this ability seems to encourage active passivity, rather than passive passivity.
    How I'd fix
    Honestly, being able to use melee and primary/secondary at the same time? This feels like the least bad of all his powers now (after his 4th which, being an exalted weapon promotes more player engagement than his 1st.) It's his 2nd and 3rd ability that I'm severely disappointed with.

2nd:
... Well you can move faster... FOR 2 SECONDS?!!!! WHAT THE-?!
    How I'd fix
    At least increase the base duration! Or allow for instantaneous refreshing. (That'll be fun, press 2 every 2 seconds for radical riveting racing gameplay) How about a toggle? You've already got the 'fire to cancel' built in.

You wouldn't want to go faster? ... Your next Warframe is a RACING FRAME!

3rd:
The one thing that he used to be the absolute king of in this game, has been revoked. Wukong is dead, press F to pay respects.
Wukong used to be an original idea, a tank totally based around dying. Not anymore.
ANOTHER ****ING 2-SECOND ABILITY?!!! At least Harrow's 4 has a base time of 5 seconds, and it was a crit bonus which lasted even longer than 5 seconds not a 1-time wham bam damage slam. Plus, I don't want to have to deal damage based on how damage is dealt to ME by my enemies. IT'S NOT FUN! "Now depending on whether or not these guys shoot me I could one-shot them or just knock them on their butts... wheeee"
    How I'd fix it
    I want my security blanket 3 back!!! If not, at least increase the time invulnerable, decrease the scaling factor and change the damage to true damage. However, see passive for my opinion on a better use of the 3 button.

4th:
It's better. What more can I say?


As it stand right now DE has managed to do the impossible... they killed the Immortal Wukong.
They changed him from a 'press 3 to not die', to a press 3 to MAYBE kill something (so why would you press it?), press 2 to ATTEMPT to go fast (I've had longer hiccups), and press 1 to sit back and watch Twitch- I mean sit back and watch someone else kill something...
Frost: 4 domes, Ivara: 7 arrows, Nova: 18 orbs, Nidus: 99 stacks, Mesa: 1 bazillion bullets
Wukong: 1 ability of any merit now, 2 SECONDS ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!, and 3 free revives with annoying distractions per mission.
The 'as long as'es are too much for Wukong
Excalibur: As long as I can get energy, I'm good
Saryn: As long as I can continue to spread my spores, I'm good
Harrow: As long as I can get headshots, I'm good
Mesa: As long as I keep my 3 and 4 active, I'm good
Nidus: As long as I keep my stacks up, I'm god
Wukong: As long as I stay under 3 deaths, and keep getting energy, aand remember to spam 2 every 2 seconds, aaannd get the enemy to damage me so I can damage them back, aaaannnndd get my clone to stop doing whatever the heck he wants and kill the enemy... You know what? I could be better...
He's complicated, but not in a good or fun way.
I don't know about other people but I didn't dislike Defy, I disliked how it was his only good ability.
Right now it feels like DE pulled a "You can't has nice things, I'll take that!" and just nerfed him into the ground. Sure they gave him a better (if somewhat passive 1), made his 2 much more usable THEN MADE IT COMICALLY SHORT, and improved his 4. But I feel DE knows his 3 isn't that good since they gave his 3 such a high scaling damage (7.5x BASE, seriously?). Taking damage CONSISTENTLY is hard, so they were just like **** it just give him a lot of power strength and no one will notice.

 

    How would I fix Wukong?
    Keep his 1st as it is.
    Increase time for cloudwalker, or make it toggleable.
    People like tanks, try making his immortality more aggressive. Change his 3 so you could 'invest' energy into a "life" bar that can be filled to insanity thus giving back the option to play as an immortal Wukong IF YOU WANT TO, but requires player INVESTMENT.
    Even better tie the lives system in with the death-boosts system so if you played with a lower number of revives (1,2,3,etc.) for every life you'd lose, from each stored number of lives, you'd get a different buff (e.g. 3-1=2:resource drop buff, 2-1=1: elemental damage buff, 1-1=0: orb power boost), your buffs could have a set active time, but could be shared and refreshed. Thus making Wukong a support-focused tank who'd need to take damage to help his team, and use immortality as his energy currency for his boosts. For Nidus it was infested stacks, for Wukong literally "lives". Thus the player wouldn't turn off their brain, but would strive to manage how many 'lives' Wukong has, so they could get the most out of him.
    Now he lacks an ability to deal high level damage? ... His 4 was improved and his 2 could boost elemental damage by 3x, for goodness sakes his elemental damage was boosted WITH THE REWORK.
    Shareable refreshable boosts are too powerful? ... WISP
    Giving him back his immortality would make him too powerful? ... NIDUS
    His boosts would also offer synergy options, example: lose first life, gain orb boost allowing for investment into more lives. His buffs could overlap to some degree, so if you want 2x/3x stacks of the resource drop buff, you'd need to work hard at investing/losing lives consistently to keep them refreshed. This would not only encourage face-tanking, but FRENETIC face-tanking (flying into a crowd of enemies "HIT ME! HIT ME!").
    Wukong would still be immortal, but if you stopped paying attention to how many lives you had left, you could still die. Thus, you would no longer have the "wait here, I'll go make a sandwich" situation. The player would stay invested, but have the option of UNLIMITED POWER! if they wanted. You already have the little Wukong armor fill-bar designed, change it so it counts stored lives and leave the armor by the wayside. This change would scale into endgame far better.
    As for his 4th ability, if you really want to keep his 3rd ability, make it so that if you held 4 he would execute his 3rd ability (but it drains energy while active), and you can just press 4 to toggle on/off his exalted weapon. His movement was already sacrificed with this ability, make it a charge ability so you control when it GOES OFF.
    This way he'd be a more team-focused character who's 3rd ability would feel like it's been build upon rather than just nerfed. Players who'd want to play his other abilities would gain something, and players who just want to play his 3rd ability would ALSO gain something. Everyone wins.
    The 3 redesign would even support constant player contact with the enemy even more than the current 3.

Right now the only use for Wukong I can see is, cheesing spy missions, and AFK farming without a team. Neither of those sounds fun. I used to love Wukong. He was my go to for when I had no idea what I was doing in a mission, and needed to survive long enough to figure it out. All the while listening to "Singing In The Rain" because it fit him and I thought it was funny. Now I can't do that, all his abilities feel either too short or out of my control and I don't want to play him anymore. Please return player agency to this character.
 

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I've noticed in the Wukong rework that kills the Celestial Twin get do not count toward that Wukong's Kill number. Is this an intentional thing with Warframe summons? I think like kills gotten by the twin and any other Warframe summon (example: Venari) should count toward whichever frame summoned them

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