Wukong Revisit

[Subject212]

I think it only counts if you are solo or the host, not too sure though

[Krowiplacek]

First of all, great job with the rework! He's really fun to play now, much more active and mobile. However, there're some problems with the way he handles/the abilities work (as expected from a pretty much new frame), so here's a list of stuff that in my opinion needs fixing

 

- Controlling his clone

 The clone is a great addition and fits Wukong's theme very well, but getting it to do what you want is a real pain. Most of my problems come from the gimmick that makes him use melee when you're shooting and vice versa - at first I really liked it, but after some playing it turned out that the clone is near useless when using melee, so that mechanic ends up being frustrating and forces you into using one weapon more than anything (it also limits my primary/secondary gun usage, since if I want him to use a certain gun I can't use the other one).                                                                   

 My suggestion would be to lock him into the weapon you're currently holding after using your 1 on him - this way the melee-gun switcheru would still be available for the people who want it. Also, please don't make him use my stick when I'm using it... I get it with 2 and 3, but his 4 just always leaves me frustrated. I think a better option would be to count it as any other melee, or to only make him use it when you're using it and use your 1 on him.

- Limited passive usage

 I really dislike the idea of a passive that has a finite number of uses. I don't think the post-death boosts should be a thing that can be regenerated (players would probably abuse it), but I very much believe the revive should. Either have it on a timer (for example, have one charge regenerate after 5 minutes without dying), or have killing enemies contribute to recharging them. I'm sure there're a ton of other options to implement this, just please have a way to get the revives back - passives shouldn't work like that

- Knockdowns, knockdowns, knockdowns

 This isn't really a wukong specific problem as much as it's a problem with warframe overall - the amount of knockdowns is EXTREMLY overwhelming and literally impossible to dodge, especially if you're a melee frame (like wukong is). However, it can be fixed easily in this instance, just make his 3 make you invulnerable to knockdowns. Please. It'd fit with both the theme of the ability and the way it's used in gameplay, and would fix a ton of issues with playing him (the most issues I had with this was in disruption, with how you usually only have few seconds to kill the demolyst, and this valuable time can be taken away from you just because some moas decided to gang up on you, with no way for you to react)

- Nullifier vulnerability

  Again, this is a problem that the entirety of warframe is facing. I think that literally only one frame is affected by nullifiers in a way that is acceptable (Nidus, with his stacks slowly going away). Every other frame has its abilities just straight up deleted, instead of canceled or deleted in a time window. This makes me much less likely to play a ton of frames, especially the ones where you build up some stats over the course of the mission (gara with her 2 + 4 + 1 combo for example), or the ones that depend on the abilities to survive (rhino should just have iron skin disabled inside the bubble instead of instantly deleted).   

  And well, new wukong unfortunately doesn't handle nullifiers in a way that would be balanced (again, like nidus). His clone disappears after you enter the bubble (Either make him not even affected by nullifiers or have him appear again after you leave the bubble), and his 3 gets instantly deleted (I believe a better solution would be to either accelerate the timer going down, or have it drain the armor bonus when inside the bubble. (Also, please look into the nullifying aura that demolysts have, it disabling exalted weapons or deleting stuff like iron skin feels just straight up unfair. I think it should only work on abilities that limit its mobility, so that they can't be stopped)

- Melee Combos

 YET AGAIN, it's a problem with melee 2.9 overall, but I really think that gun switching instead of blocking/channeling was a bad decision, and affects wukong's combos negatively. PLEASE just replace it with instant switch between weapon without the animation, this way switching will still be much more fluid, but the combos will no longer be hella clunky, automatic blocking won't #*!% over entire weapon classes, and quick melee will be back (pls my volt wants his polearms back)

 

I think these are my main complaints about the rework and some other mechanics, I really hope someone from DE reads this and responds! I'm very interested if any of my suggestion are bad 🙂     

                                                                                                                

  

Edited June 21, 2019 by Krowiplacek

[Giantconch]

10 minutes ago, Subject212 said:

I think it only counts if you are solo or the host, not too sure though

 

So how about some information about the game you think you've had this bug happen in? You werent solo or host then? What mission type? Its very helpful to others to confirm bugs if the person who thinks they've found one can give at least a bit of information about the situation.

[Subject212]

Alright I just ran a few mission on Marina, Earth. Once Solo, Once as the host, and once as a client. For both the Host and solo mission, kills gotten by my clone using either weapon counted toward my kill count. As client it didn't count the kills my clone got

[CallMeLunaGamer]

Totally agree with you on the passive. No other frame in the game enters a mission thinking "Hmmm I only have 3 of this thing, better be careful how I use them." I mean you can hold 200 energy pads for goodness sakes.

Nidus is now more immortal than Wukong... think about that!

[Xepthrichros]

I agree that it's hard to justify giving up a mod slot to use Enveloping Cloud

Personally, I prefer Enveloping Cloud to stealth team mates, but for Wukong himself, adds on to the duration of cloud walker by a base duration of 2/3/4/5 seconds. Which can be further increased by duration mods. So you end up with an approximately 20 to 30 second Cloud Walker if maximized duration modding

Edited June 21, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Xepthrichros]

So does pressing and holding down E during exalted weapon mode not do anything?

Can probably throw in Iron Jab and Iron Vault there so as to retain some of the old capabilities of the old Wukong too. 

[MonkeyKV]

4 hours ago, CallMeLunaGamer said:

Right now the only use for Wukong I can see is, cheesing spy missions, and AFK farming without a team

You certainly have not played him enough or properly. He is still amazingly survivable, with amazing mobility and an amazing exalted.

4 hours ago, CallMeLunaGamer said:

He was my go to for when I had no idea what I was doing in a mission, and needed to survive long enough to figure it out

Old wukong had nothing. He wasn't even the top tank. New wukong is fun and has 4 usable skills. Yes some could be better, mainly his passive and defy's useless taunt and spin but a great rework overall.

I suggest you give inaros a spin for your new clueless mission endeavour. Has everything old wukong had and more. 

 

[Xaxma]

Enveloping Cloud should just also apply invisibility for himself after he pops out.

[Colyeses]

11 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

let me give you an example of how i could remove a passive.

Ash:

Hemorrhage

Any Slash Procs inflicted by Ash (from both weapons and abilities) deal 25% more damage and last 50% longer.

Shuriken and blade storm now apply this as a debuff. boom ash has no passive and it doesnt matter.

Actually, that does matter. You still need to use abilities to tag on the debuff, which you didn't need before, and blade storm's explanation is now a wall of text. The passive is a far more elegant solution.

Wukong's passive is bad, not because it invalidates his kit or anything, but because it is bad design. It encourages bad play and gives a tiny reward on something that should be a failstate. Dying should not activate benefits, and this is something that has been considered bad throughout many, many games. 

To improve this, a quick, band-aid fix for this could be to use another measure of immortality to allow the buffs to trigger without dying. For example, every fifty kills, Wukong gets one of the buffs, or every X damage taken or blocked.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, Colyeses said:

Wukong's passive is bad, not because it invalidates his kit or anything, but because it is bad design. It encourages bad play and gives a tiny reward on something that should be a failstate. Dying should not activate benefits, and this is something that has been considered bad throughout many, many games.

people building around his passive, and expecting his passive to make them not have to even consider the penalty of dying is bad play. his passive is fine. it gives you an opportunity to recover.

its the same with nidus. i havent encountered undying in a long time because i dont play to die. the passive is not there for me to rely on.

[Colyeses]

1 minute ago, EinheriarJudith said:

people building around his passive, and expecting his passive to make them not have to even consider the penalty of dying is bad play. his passive is fine. it gives you an opportunity to recover.

its the same with nidus. i havent encountered undying in a long time because i dont play to die. the passive is not there for me to rely on.

Nidus' passive is much, much bigger than Undying. Mutation stacks are huge, they're the first step in making damage oriented Warframes competitive. Sure, Undying is something that removes the penalty for death, but it doesn't add an incentive to it. It softens the fail state, but doesn't try to turn it inside out. 

Wukong's passive doesn't do anything until you die, which is a big step worse than Mutation.

[EinheriarJudith]

7 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Nidus' passive is much, much bigger than Undying. Mutation stacks are huge, they're the first step in making damage oriented Warframes competitive. Sure, Undying is something that removes the penalty for death, but it doesn't add an incentive to it. It softens the fail state, but doesn't try to turn it inside out. 

Wukong's passive doesn't do anything until you die, which is a big step worse than Mutation.

stacks are just a part of his kit wether they are a passive or if DE decided to just have the skills do it makes no difference to me. as i said in my post mags passive is off unless you are not using a pet, ill further add ember's passive which is off unless you are on a tile that has fire hazard, fighting enemies with flame throwers (only grineer), or use self damage fire weapon, i still play both mag and ember  because their passives dont diminish or add to their kit. passives are something i treat as "it runs in the background" if it happens ok if it doesnt no skin off my back. that is all.

Edit: wukong has 4 functional skills. sure they need a little bit of work but they are all usefull and feel good to use.

Edited June 21, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[Colyeses]

13 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

stacks are just a part of his kit wether they are a passive or if DE decided to just have the skills do it makes no difference to me. as i said in my post mags passive is off unless you are not using a pet, ill further add ember's passive which is off unless you are on a tile that has fire hazard, fighting enemies with flame throwers (only grineer), or use self damage fire weapon, i still play both mag and ember  because their passives dont diminish or add to their kit. passives are something i treat as "it runs in the background" if it happens ok if it doesnt no skin off my back. that is all.

Edit: wukong has 4 functional skills. sure they need a little bit of work but they are all usefull and feel good to use.

And that's all fine, but none of it changes anything about the fact that the Five Levels of Immortality is just really bad game design. You're basically hijacking the discussion to talk about passives in general when this is a Wukong thread.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Colyeses

[EinheriarJudith]

Just now, Colyeses said:

And that's all fine, but none of it changes anything about the fact that the Five Levels of Immortality is just really bad game design. You're basically hijacking the discussion to talk about passives in general when this is a Wukong thread.

actually after my last message to monkey i was done but people keep pinging me about it if anything you should have let it end where it was finished.

[Autongnosis]

As it's obsolesced by both directional ground slams and slide attacks. Both of those do more damage and close the gap faster. 

 

Currently the gap closer animation has literally no purpose. It should instantly catapult you forward, not slowly and clunckily slightly move you ahead... Also, if it's a gap closer the first animation should move you forth and then it should do attacks, not the other way around. If you first attack then move, you won't be closing gaps, you'll be attacking empty air... 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Autongnosis

[operational]

On 2019-06-19 at 6:46 PM, DeMonkey said:

Actually impossible.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't attempt to derail my feedback with hyperbolic salty whinging, thanks.

Sorry, I was just overheating

Actually Its because I though that Wukong should be more Team Friendly OR Solo Frame.

I was talking to my friend about the rework that both of us got disappointed and them we realized that it changes nothing. Wukong still has no helpful ways to help a team and cmom specters didnt do much. I liked the NeZha rework because it turned NeZha to a friendly, useful, team based AND solo frame.

We come with some Ideas.
ps: Its based on the oldkong
Passive: Master of the arts - as a melee based warframe, Wukong has bonuses when his combo counter is high and his combo counter depletes slower.

1- Iron Staff - Wukong pokes in a long distance either the enemy or surface causing it to explode dealing % max health as Impact Dmg if hits and enemy or Explosion Dmg/Proc if its a wall or floor.

2- Defy - Duration Based Buff - Wukong gains a buff on his Melee Dmg and cannot Die with a penalty based on his combo counter.
0x/1x combo counter = Gains a Small amount of Damage on his skills. If dies: Lose all energy and 75% Health and cannot use any skills on x seconds.
2x/2,5x CC = Gains x Armor and Shield Restorarion/Overshield bonuses. If Dies: Lose Half energy/ Health but can use skills and has 1 second vulnerability
3x+ CC = Gains Armor, Health Regenarion, Overshield and can grant allies Damage, and Speed Bonuses with his first and third skill. If Dies Burst heal in AoE granting 3 Second Invulnerabily to all Warframes in X Area.

3-Cloud Walker: Actually I like the change, the duration that is a pain in the aXX.

4- Primal Fury: Same as above.

You know, the worst part of his kit is actually his passive, its a good passive but the restriction of dying is really bad, you dont want to die and if it happes in the game once, its probably gonna happen everytime you revive so no point in giving bonuses for that.

[Pavelord]

 but the movement lunges forward stabbing with the staff then a flying kick and you actually move forward quite a long distance; further than a slide, are you doing the attack while holding aim and pushing forward?, I was certainly covering large gaps when I tried.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I'm guessing it's a bug that comes from the anti-exploit function that's built into summoned allies.

Kills are supposed to count when it's just the stats screen or a mission objective, such as Exterminate, and when it's the Clone you will always get the Affinity regardless (since it's your ability) but they're not supposed to count towards any function that builds off attacks/kills/damage like the melee counter, Arcanes and so on. This does sometimes cause bugs like the 'not counting towards the stats screen' on client connections.

That'll be hotfixed if enough people report it as a bug.

::Edit:: Again with the thread merging... nobody can keep track of these comments, Mods...

Edited June 21, 2019 by Birdframe_Prime

[Veridian]

INB4 best stealth frame.
A 15s stealth, which can be cast while in stealth, with no gimmick or drawback?
That's going to be mandatory.

[0_The_F00l]

I enjoyed most of the rework, feels more active to use. 

There are some issues I face though . 

The defy aggro doesn't quite seem to work as intended guess it only aggros enemies within the ability range? I know I saw a sniper aim at me and then aim at a different player while defy was active ,

the 2 to 3 second invulnerability is nice, but the armor buff doesn't feel enough, sure 1.5k armor is like 83% DR minimum, but cloud walker can just heal you, and 50 armor if no one shoots you (happens very often with negative range build) is kinda pointless. I would rather go cloud walker, heal, reposition and murder enemies while defy ends. 

The damage can be significant though. 

If it boosted primal fury damage i would use it more often. 

The passive.... I have not been able to die in the regular gameplay so far, so I have no inputs on it. 

The clone is OK, for a specter, and specters in warframe are just terrible. I just hand it a rapid fire status weapon and go CO melee on enemies. Works very well. 

Primal fury combos feel a little weird but guess I just need to get used to it, and is it supposed to be appearing that long? Feels like they made some calculation errors on how long its supposed to be. 

The cloud walker is by far the ability I have used the most. Quick cast, fast movement, opens enemies to finishers, heals you and removes status effects, this is what every mobility ability should be like (revenant reave and hydroid tidal surge), can't believe how much more useful this has become. 

 

So as I said, overall I like the changes, it's a very different playstyle than before though. And that how we say goodbye to one of the last immortal frames.

[0_The_F00l]

Or, it could heal teammates instead of making them invisible. 

[Teridax68]

14 hours ago, MJ12 said:

I think the intent on limiting the passive the way it is and making it quasi-random is to ensure that people see the temporary buff given by avoiding death as a "ribbon"-which is the term used by a lot of F2P mobile game players about a secondary nice-to-have benefit of a character skill which isn't its primary focus-instead of thinking of it as some kind of desirable buff that they should build around trying to keep active by deliberately killing themselves to gain those buffs.

I mean... would it really be wrong if Wukong were encouraged to trigger his passive? Not only could it make for a higher-risk playstyle and encourage more skill expression in managing that risk, it could also answer the concern of his passive currently having no major function in most of Wukong's combat.

Quote

Wouldn't another viable change be to have a very-short-duration Wukong clone do the staff spin at the end? That would remove the interrupt without a drastic rework of how the skill functions.

That could fix the bit at the end, but not the channel itself, which disables all of Wukong's other actions. The main criticism I'm making of Defy is that it severely restricts Wukong's range of moves while in effect, so unless the entire move were to be performed by a clone (which I guess could be another potential direction), simply having the end bit get changed wouldn't entirely fix it.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Teridax68

[Teridax68]

I agree that it'd be nice for Wukong and his clone to also benefit from this invisibility upon leaving the cloud, though on top of that I think part of the problem is simply that Cloud Walker's base duration is far too low at the moment. 2 seconds at max rank is laughable, and that value could easily be doubled or even tripled.

[RunningChaos]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Or, it could heal teammates instead of making them invisible. 

Was thinking the same thing. That augment is just stupid. Making teammates invisible.....Why?