Will dedicated server solve some issues?

[XenMaster]

All i can think of is the AI pathing when the host is too lag.

 

Any other ideas?

Edited June 20, 2019 by XenMaster

[Loza03]

It might fix some, but it'd cause far more. Notably, DE doesn't have the funding for it. And that sounds crazy given how successful the game is, but when you account the business model and the cost of development and servers, alongside how many instances Warframe has up at any one time, it isn't really.

[aswitz87]

31 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It might fix some, but it'd cause far more. Notably, DE doesn't have the funding for it. And that sounds crazy given how successful the game is, but when you account the business model and the cost of development and servers, alongside how many instances Warframe has up at any one time, it isn't really.

They could allow players to run dedicated servers voluntarily.  It’s been done before to great success, though not in this scale.  The biggest hurdle would be whatever software is deciding which server to send a new matchup to (needing to consider load and relative connectivity among other things).

As for Op: host migrations would be gone with ded servers. 

[trst]

Fix some and introduce some.

The biggest fix would probably be host migrations and possibly fixes with account information failing to update.

But the biggest issue that might happen with dedicated servers is that everyone's connection is now based on their connection to the servers rather than the host and their connection to the servers. Meaning depending on location, isp, and hardware some may have worse performance than with p2p.

A lot of factors are necessary to consider on whether or not it would be a net-positive change.

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It might fix some, but it'd cause far more. Notably, DE doesn't have the funding for it. And that sounds crazy given how successful the game is, but when you account the business model and the cost of development and servers, alongside how many instances Warframe has up at any one time, it isn't really.

If GGG can do it so can DE. Both games are highly successful and have almost the same amount of players. PoE likely even has more instances than warframe running at any given time because solo play is far bigger in PoE. And GGG have several servers for that game.

The only difference is that DE would have make the game ready for it, but they've already started when they introduced the option for player hosted dedicated servers in conclave. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If GGG can do it so can DE. Both games are highly successful and have almost the same amount of players. PoE likely even has more instances than warframe running at any given time because solo play is far bigger in PoE. And GGG have several servers for that game.

The only difference is that DE would have make the game ready for it, but they've already started when they introduced the option for player hosted dedicated servers in conclave. 

 

40 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Amen.

It would finally get rid of this host migration bullS#&$.. I'm also tired of getting connected to hosts with a 1000 ping (even though my limit is at 100) which is common on console, because they're mostly outside of range from the WiFi and not connected via a cable..

It'd improve the life of console players.. just like any other game I play that has servers (even if they're miles away from me) never had issues.

Edited June 20, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If GGG can do it so can DE. Both games are highly successful and have almost the same amount of players. PoE likely even has more instances than warframe running at any given time because solo play is far bigger in PoE. And GGG have several servers for that game.

The only difference is that DE would have make the game ready for it, but they've already started when they introduced the option for player hosted dedicated servers in conclave. 

Fact of the matter is, neither of us know exactly what it's like behind the Scenes, especially not financially. Companies never publicise their true profits, gross and the like, due to business reasons.

DE does. DE is also aware that dedicated servers would most likely have a significant positive impact on the overall experience. This means the fact they haven't done it indicates that there's a good reason why not - most likely, that they cannot financially support them. There could be any number of reasons why. Availability of good worldwide providers near DE, their development method, some obscure bit of the game's code. I don't even know if these reasons are anywhere in the ballpark of correct, but that much doesn't matter. What matters is that DE has the data, and it's their call. They have a history of making leaps that aren't the best for them financially, but are better for the game long-term - the whole 'reroll your pets appearance' thing comes to mind - so there most likely is a reason why this isn't better long-term.

[nslay]

53 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Fact of the matter is, neither of us know exactly what it's like behind the Scenes, especially not financially. Companies never publicise their true profits, gross and the like, due to business reasons.

DE does. DE is also aware that dedicated servers would most likely have a significant positive impact on the overall experience. This means the fact they haven't done it indicates that there's a good reason why not - most likely, that they cannot financially support them. There could be any number of reasons why. Availability of good worldwide providers near DE, their development method, some obscure bit of the game's code. I don't even know if these reasons are anywhere in the ballpark of correct, but that much doesn't matter. What matters is that DE has the data, and it's their call. They have a history of making leaps that aren't the best for them financially, but are better for the game long-term - the whole 'reroll your pets appearance' thing comes to mind - so there most likely is a reason why this isn't better long-term.

A good reason why not: DE developed a very complicated NAT hole-punching/UPnP supporting/other NAT traversal technique(s) to support P2P gameplay and that changing it to a simpler host-client design is probably a tremendous amount of effort.

Like your said, we especially don't know behind the scenes financial details, so most likely you don't know anything about their ability to financially support servers. But what we do know is that other F2P games can do it.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Fact of the matter is, neither of us know exactly what it's like behind the Scenes, especially not financially. Companies never publicise their true profits, gross and the like, due to business reasons.

DE does. DE is also aware that dedicated servers would most likely have a significant positive impact on the overall experience. This means the fact they haven't done it indicates that there's a good reason why not - most likely, that they cannot financially support them. There could be any number of reasons why. Availability of good worldwide providers near DE, their development method, some obscure bit of the game's code. I don't even know if these reasons are anywhere in the ballpark of correct, but that much doesn't matter. What matters is that DE has the data, and it's their call. They have a history of making leaps that aren't the best for them financially, but are better for the game long-term - the whole 'reroll your pets appearance' thing comes to mind - so there most likely is a reason why this isn't better long-term.

It is likely only due to costs and availability. The code is there, we know that already from hubs to dedicated conclave servers. It wouldnt be harder to implement dedicated servers for public missions, it would just be about finding the right providers and negotiate the costs.

We also know DE profits are good because we've seen them in annual reports related to Leyou.

Both GGG and DE have roughly the same type of cash shop options. They are actually less needed in PoE because of seasons compared to an everlasting progression that we have in WF i.e more slots over time compared to inventory expansion in PoE. However, we can trade platinum here, but it still isnt free. So I dont really see the big differences and reasons as to why it wouldnt be possible for DE to get dedicated servers.

And it isnt like DE is situated in the 3rd world country of internet i.e USA, they are afterall canadian. And when it comes to europe it is just a matter of finding the best deal because 99% of the providers are top notch and want the business. It doesnt matter if they pick Ireland, Holland, Sweden or Germany, they will get great options in either. Asia and SEA I dont know anything about, but I wouldnt be surprised if there are good options and eager providers in Australia, New Zeland, Japan and S-Korea. Heck, Leyou could probably help them hook up with a isp in Hong Kong.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

A good reason why not: DE developed a very complicated NAT hole-punching/UPnP supporting/other NAT traversal technique(s) to support P2P gameplay and that changing it to a simpler host-client design is probably a tremendous amount of effort.

And, sadly, effort is money. Plus the cost of servers.

1 hour ago, nslay said:

Like your said, we especially don't know behind the scenes financial details, so most likely you don't know anything about their ability to financially support servers. But what we do know is that other F2P games can do it.

And we do know that Warframe hasn't. Just because other F2P games can doesn't mean Warframe can. Warframe can get away with a system built entirely on optional gameplay-related purchases. I remember Dungeon Defenders 2 started off with that intention, and failed.

 

45 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is likely only due to costs and availability. The code is there, we know that already from hubs to dedicated conclave servers. It wouldnt be harder to implement dedicated servers for public missions, it would just be about finding the right providers and negotiate the costs.

We also know DE profits are good because we've seen them in annual reports related to Leyou.

Both GGG and DE have roughly the same type of cash shop options. They are actually less needed in PoE because of seasons compared to an everlasting progression that we have in WF i.e more slots over time compared to inventory expansion in PoE. However, we can trade platinum here, but it still isnt free. So I dont really see the big differences and reasons as to why it wouldnt be possible for DE to get dedicated servers.

And it isnt like DE is situated in the 3rd world country of internet i.e USA, they are afterall canadian. And when it comes to europe it is just a matter of finding the best deal because 99% of the providers are top notch and want the business. It doesnt matter if they pick Ireland, Holland, Sweden or Germany, they will get great options in either. Asia and SEA I dont know anything about, but I wouldnt be surprised if there are good options and eager providers in Australia, New Zeland, Japan and S-Korea. Heck, Leyou could probably help them hook up with a isp in Hong Kong.

And, see, therein lies the rub.

The costs. We don't know how much money it'd take. Even if they get a great deal from a provider, it could still cost a helluva lot due to reasons we know nothing about. Even if they can technically afford it, that draws funding from the development and advertising. That in turn causes cuts on the budget, that eventually lead to haemorrhaging players, which in turn leads to lower profit margins - and of course, less funding. It's a vicious cycle.

I've seen a game go down because of a big money sink that it could technically afford draining its funding from other areas. It's a slow death, and not a pretty sight, believe me, and I would wish it on no developer or playerbase.

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

And, sadly, effort is money. Plus the cost of servers. 

 

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

And we do know that Warframe hasn't. Just because other F2P games can doesn't mean Warframe can. Warframe can get away with a system built entirely on optional gameplay-related purchases. I remember Dungeon Defenders 2 started off with that intention, and failed. 

Right, we know Warframe hasn't. We don't know why they haven't. But we also know that the F2P model can support server infrastructure because other F2P games can do this. But you keep spouting reasons why they don't have servers with high certainty in the face of your own words about being uncertain about their finances.

And sadly, rewriting large complicated chunks of the game is very high risk for reasons beyond the cost of effort (like retaining otherwise happy players who are plagued by bugs it introduces).

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

Right, we know Warframe hasn't. We don't know why they haven't. But we also know that the F2P model can support server infrastructure because other F2P games can do this. But you keep spouting reasons why they don't have servers with high certainty in the face of your own words about being uncertain about their finances.

Exactly.

We literally do not know the reason, and can't given our current facilities. It is pointless to say "but other games can" because we don't have the information necessary to make the judgement call.

DE does. DE has made the judgement call. No servers. We can only trust that they know what they're doing, and speculate.

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

And sadly, rewriting large complicated chunks of the game is very high risk for reasons beyond the cost of effort (like retaining otherwise happy players who are plagued by bugs it introduces).

Indeed.

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Exactly.

We literally do not know the reason, and can't given our current facilities. It is pointless to say "but other games can" because we don't have the information necessary to make the judgement call.

DE does. DE has made the judgement call. No servers. We can only trust that they know what they're doing, and speculate.

Indeed.

All agreed! I just had the impression that you're undervaluing DE with your focus on things like cost and finances! I really think DE is doing very well for itself! Look, it's even changing little tiny things like buttons (I mean, they're doing well enough to care about those little things!)! This isn't the work of a tiny and desperate company anymore.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And, sadly, effort is money. Plus the cost of servers.

And we do know that Warframe hasn't. Just because other F2P games can doesn't mean Warframe can. Warframe can get away with a system built entirely on optional gameplay-related purchases. I remember Dungeon Defenders 2 started off with that intention, and failed.

 

And, see, therein lies the rub.

The costs. We don't know how much money it'd take. Even if they get a great deal from a provider, it could still cost a helluva lot due to reasons we know nothing about. Even if they can technically afford it, that draws funding from the development and advertising. That in turn causes cuts on the budget, that eventually lead to haemorrhaging players, which in turn leads to lower profit margins - and of course, less funding. It's a vicious cycle.

I've seen a game go down because of a big money sink that it could technically afford draining its funding from other areas. It's a slow death, and not a pretty sight, believe me, and I would wish it on no developer or playerbase.

Why would it magically cost DE tons of money when it doesnt for other companies. Those server farm rents are cheap and the companies are often looking for new customers to fill them. And in some cases even the governments will help back it up because it opens up new job opportunities on a local/national scale. 

And as with any company, there should be a seperate budget for each and they should decide where to cut down in order to cover those new costs in their next yearly budget.

And I'm talking about other f2p games that are on the same scale as WF. So if GGG can do it with PoE then there is no real reason why DE cant, except for wanting to save money and thinking that the current system works well enough. Both of the games follow roughly the same player gain/retention pattern, so it is easy to assume they have roughly the same profitable sales from their cash shops. And for GGG it has been more than enough to keep the dedicated servers world wide.

I mean it wouldnt be fair to compare it to a very small game with dedicated servers, because obviously the server costs for the small game would be a fraction of what DE would need. But in PoE's case the in-game setup with groups and solo play are pretty much the same as in WF, but in PoE every single player has a spot on the server, both when playing solo and with others.

[nslay]

Those are F2P games probably started with a host-client design. Warframe has been P2P all along right? It would be a huge change to make it host-client now!

I mean P2P isn't all bad. I can imagine this works in Warframe's favor for the Switch right? Isn't that P2P (e.g. literally other Switches in the vicinity?).

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Pursuant to the SP Agreement, Leyou Technologies will sell 31% of the issued share capital of Dreamscape Horizon Limited ("Dreamscape Horizon"), a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Group, to Metitu at a consideration of HK$2,686,577,470. 

If Leyou thought Digital Extremes needed servers, they would have them. I would love to have servers, but ultimately, realistically DE has to want them. DE has to make it a priority. And for some incoherent reason it's not. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Loza03]

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why would it magically cost DE tons of money when it doesnt for other companies. Those server farm rents are cheap and the companies are often looking for new customers to fill them. And in some cases even the governments will help back it up because it opens up new job opportunities on a local/national scale. 

And as with any company, there should be a seperate budget for each and they should decide where to cut down in order to cover those new costs in their next yearly budget.

And I'm talking about other f2p games that are on the same scale as WF. So if GGG can do it with PoE then there is no real reason why DE cant, except for wanting to save money and thinking that the current system works well enough. Both of the games follow roughly the same player gain/retention pattern, so it is easy to assume they have roughly the same profitable sales from their cash shops. And for GGG it has been more than enough to keep the dedicated servers world wide.

I mean it wouldnt be fair to compare it to a very small game with dedicated servers, because obviously the server costs for the small game would be a fraction of what DE would need. But in PoE's case the in-game setup with groups and solo play are pretty much the same as in WF, but in PoE every single player has a spot on the server, both when playing solo and with others.

Because DE built it on a P2P model, and because it has notoriously spaghettified code. Those are two, but again - we literally have no idea what's going on at the back end. There could be a thousand reasons why, there could be one good one. But you can bet that someone DE who is literally paid to do so has made and probably even is making all the same comparisons you are, and said "no, it's not worth it."

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Because DE built it on a P2P model, and because it has notoriously spaghettified code. Those are two, but again - we literally have no idea what's going on at the back end. There could be a thousand reasons why, there could be one good one. But you can bet that someone DE who is literally paid to do so has made and probably even is making all the same comparisons you are, and said "no, it's not worth it."

They've already proven that the code etc. works, otherwise we wouldnt have player hosted dedicated severs. It would just be to implement that tech to the rest of the game. The major problem with WF is the interaction with several players on the screen on their dedicated servers, which can be seen in relays and cetus where it isnt optimal. But we arent talking about turning WF into an MMO-game with several players on screen at once, we are simply talking about dedicated servers hosting up to 4 players per instance.

PoE suffers the exact same issue, although their hubs doesnt show it. Instead their problems come when you co-op in intense and large environments, like uber labs etc. where even 2 players may be too much for a smooth experience. The latency may be perfect but you suffer other things, like massive graphical lag and so on. This is something that has to do with their engine and how it handles other players, same issues that Gaz had with Marvel Heroes, which they later on fixed pretty well in order to get patrols as smooth as possible. In WF we already know the co-op experience is spot on when the latency is good, a dedicated server would simply remove the RNG nature of the host we have now.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

They've already proven that the code etc. works, otherwise we wouldnt have player hosted dedicated severs. It would just be to implement that tech to the rest of the game. The major problem with WF is the interaction with several players on the screen on their dedicated servers, which can be seen in relays and cetus where it isnt optimal. But we arent talking about turning WF into an MMO-game with several players on screen at once, we are simply talking about dedicated servers hosting up to 4 players per instance.

PoE suffers the exact same issue, although their hubs doesnt show it. Instead their problems come when you co-op in intense and large environments, like uber labs etc. where even 2 players may be too much for a smooth experience. The latency may be perfect but you suffer other things, like massive graphical lag and so on. This is something that has to do with their engine and how it handles other players, same issues that Gaz had with Marvel Heroes, which they later on fixed pretty well in order to get patrols as smooth as possible. In WF we already know the co-op experience is spot on when the latency is good, a dedicated server would simply remove the RNG nature of the host we have now.

I'm pretty sick of this conversation going in circles.

 

We can compare PoE and Warframe till we're blue in the face, the cows come home and judgement day when trumpets sound. Simple fact of the matter is, we're only comparing the surface level stuff.

There is somebody at DE, if not a small team, who has almost certainly run all the numbers you have and more. They have all the details, all the numbers, access to the code, access to the devs, access to the budget and access to comparisons to other games and they have said no.

You have access to comparisons to other games and you are saying 'yes'.

I know which one I trust more. And fortunately, the one I trust more is the one in charge.

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I'm pretty sick of this conversation going in circles.

 

We can compare PoE and Warframe till we're blue in the face, the cows come home and judgement day when trumpets sound. Simple fact of the matter is, we're only comparing the surface level stuff.

There is somebody at DE, if not a small team, who has almost certainly run all the numbers you have and more. They have all the details, all the numbers, access to the code, access to the devs, access to the budget and access to comparisons to other games and they have said no.

You have access to comparisons to other games and you are saying 'yes'.

I know which one I trust more. And fortunately, the one I trust more is the one in charge.

But we do know that the code options are there and we do know prices are low and companies are willing to provide if DE ever wanted it. If they somehow has a team that says no due to costs, then we should probably start worrying about the future of the game too, since it obviously isnt doing that great if the budget is that strict.

I dont think there is a team at all for that though, I think it is simply DE not being interested because what they have "works". Even though afaik they havent even found a proper person to take over after the guy that quit who designed the matchmaking system. Hence why we have host migration bugs popping up over and over in old and new content. The guys they have working on it simply doesnt seem to know enough to fix it.

It is one of the only things I think is bad regarding DE. They see the game is successful, doing great and growing. So they kinda get into the hubris side of things and dont fix or add what is needed. It isnt just about dedicated servers, it is everywhere in the game, from poor upkeep of old content, to new releases being poorly scaled with extremely low longevity. But it is because of the "it's fine, we're doing great..." view on the whole project.

I can assure you, it isnt about costs, code problems or lack of availability in providers.

[Loza03]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But we do know that the code options are there and we do know prices are low and companies are willing to provide if DE ever wanted it. If they somehow has a team that says no due to costs, then we should probably start worrying about the future of the game too, since it obviously isnt doing that great if the budget is that strict.

I dont think there is a team at all for that though, I think it is simply DE not being interested because what they have "works". Even though afaik they havent even found a proper person to take over after the guy that quit who designed the matchmaking system. Hence why we have host migration bugs popping up over and over in old and new content. The guys they have working on it simply doesnt seem to know enough to fix it.

It is one of the only things I think is bad regarding DE. They see the game is successful, doing great and growing. So they kinda get into the hubris side of things and dont fix or add what is needed. It isnt just about dedicated servers, it is everywhere in the game, from poor upkeep of old content, to new releases being poorly scaled with extremely low longevity. But it is because of the "it's fine, we're doing great..." view on the whole project.

I can assure you, it isnt about costs, code problems or lack of availability in providers.

You can tell me whatever it is you think is going on behind the scenes, you don't know. You're attributing the lack of dedicated servers to malice, or laziness - and yes, that could be the reason - but you don't know.

None of us do.  But it's more likely, given DE's history, that it's a good reason.

I'm not going to respond anymore, this conversation has long since stopped being useful and, as I said, is just going in circles at this point.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

18 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You're attributing the lack of dedicated servers to malice, or laziness - and yes, that could be the reason - but you don't know.

No I don't think it's out of malice or laziness, I think it just not a priority for Digital Extremes. Because if it was a priority it would have already been implement. When mediocrity and "good enough" is the expectation, Digital Extremes will never have servers. 

We know how much DE is worth, We know how much Leyou is worth. DE has 310 employees... 310! There is no reason to have the problems we have today in the year 2019 in Warframe. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[SneakyErvin]

23 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You can tell me whatever it is you think is going on behind the scenes, you don't know. You're attributing the lack of dedicated servers to malice, or laziness - and yes, that could be the reason - but you don't know.

None of us do.  But it's more likely, given DE's history, that it's a good reason.

I'm not going to respond anymore, this conversation has long since stopped being useful and, as I said, is just going in circles at this point.

No that isnt what I'm implying. I'm saying it is being based on them simply being content with it working as it does.

And being content has been what the game has focused on for a long long long time, hence why we have the horrible balance we have now along with new content being over in a matter of hours due to the same damn reason. But aslong as it works and people are retained and coming aboard fresh, DE will see it as working. The game is fun, the game is good, the game has issues. Same as their peer-to-peer system. But when something is "working" why fix it? That is probably the overall mindset at DE and the only actual reason why we dont have nor will ever see dedicated servers. They simply arent "needed".

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[FlusteredFerret]

On 2019-06-20 at 2:31 AM, XenMaster said:

All i can think of is the AI pathing when the host is too lag.

 

Any other ideas?

The only thing dedicated servers would solve is host migration.

Still quite possible to experience lag, crashes etc.

 

[Corvid]

4 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

The only thing dedicated servers would solve is host migration.

Still quite possible to experience lag, crashes etc.

 

Aye. You'd have a more consistent experience overall, but depending on your distance from the nearest server hub, that may just mean your experience would be consistently bad.