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State Of The Forums And The Community


PsychedelicSnake
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NOTE: This is purely my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree... or something.

 

Good feedback nowadays is a diamond in the rough. That one great piece of feedback free of rage, contains little bias, contains very constructive feedback and interesting ideas. It comes around every once in a while. And what happens to it?

 

It gets washed away by a sea of new topics and threads that are nowhere near as useful as that piece of feedback was. It gets buried under, pardon my "French", a pile of crap. Not just a small pile. A BIG pile. Several pages worth, until it cannot be found again.

 

This, I feel, is a rather big problem. It is detrimental and harmful to the development of Warframe, as those few excellent replies and feedback threads constantly get buried under useless, nonconstructive threads. However, this is not the only problem.

 

There is also the constant screaming by the community. The Devs already have a hard enough time finding quality feedback, but add onto this with the fact that they are getting screamed at from every single direction by every single community member from every single camp of what they think should be done, I'd be confused about which side of the community to listen to as well.

 

For example: Buffs or Nerfs? Sometimes buffs are a good thing, sometimes nerfs are a good thing. They are also equally bad at times. But who should I listen to? If I go with the buffs, I'll &!$$ off the nerfs. If I go with the nerfs, I &!$$ off the buffs. No matter what happens, I lose.

 

You may argue that this is what the Community Moderators are for. But here is the thing: There are only a handful of them, and a little over half of the already small number reside in the English speaking forums. The rest are dedicated to their native language. How do a handful of Community Moderators sift through all the crap and terrible threads to get to  all the diamonds underneath? They don't. They only get some of them. In fact, they get very few of them. They have to moderate the community in addition to being constantly on guard for bad threads and constantly dishing out warnings and their own feedback, not the mention that they need time to play the game they moderate for.

 

TL;DR: All in all, I feel that the forums are, at the moment, a gigantic s**tstorm. Good threads get buried under crap, the Devs are having a terrible time figuring out which side of the community to listen to, and the Community Moderators are hard-pressed to keep order for the millions of registered players and the thousands of active forum accounts.

 

I'm not going to pretend I know how to fix up what I personally think is the problem. I'd probably go insane before I had the change to implement it. Instead, I'm just stating my opinion on how I personally think things are with the forums and community. While I personally love the game and tolerate most of the community, I find it nigh impossible for me to say much of a good thing towards the forums and the forum community as a whole. Hopefully, if these things are considered problems by others, they get fixed. Otherwise, I'll just suck it up and deal with it like I have been.

 

/My one-time rant

 

This rant physically exhausted me. tumblr_m59x47sco31qkql8to1_400.gif

Edited by PsychedelicSnake
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I agree wholeheartedly. This community is reminding me more and more of Minecraft's... Every little thing is complained about, every little request is spammed by complaints, every little thread is ignored due to the overly large amount of rage threads.

 

 

It's not a good path to go down, for any community.

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As much as i agree, there is no way to stop the S#&$storms. You can never stop people from voicing their opinions and a side of effect of it is good feedback get's buried over the people yelling. So i don't know how you could fix that, maybe we will have to deal with it.

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The devs don't have a hard time finding anything, all is here in the forums, they just have to read them; or did they tell you how difficult is for them to know what we are expecting? 

I don't know where you get the 'the devs are having a terrible time figuring out which side of the community to listen to' going by the recent additions, nerfs and changes I think it's pretty obvious they are not going by either side, I don't remember people screaming 'nerf trinity' or 'jack up the prices for clan tech'.

People need to stop the 'the devs are having a hard time' , it's their job and they are making money out of this; everyone in the industry knows how to filter white noise from feedback.

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People need to stop the 'the devs are having a hard time' , it's their job and they are making money out of this; everyone in the industry knows how to filter white noise from feedback.

But how does one decide which feedback to listen to? Do we listen to yours? Do we listen to this other person's? Do we listen to the mailman's? Whose do we listen to?

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But how does one decide which feedback to listen to? Do we listen to yours? Do we listen to this other person's? Do we listen to the mailman's? Whose do we listen to?

DE has decades in the industry, I think they can deal with feedback in the forum, the community hot topics are a good indication of what people are talking about.

Problem comes into play when the feedback that you get from the mayority clashes with your idea for the game, then as a developer you have to decide if you either please the crowd or stick by you initial idea risking a sh!tstorm, which is what we have now, hence they are not listening.

Or perhaps they are, they are simply disregarding it.

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Problem comes into play when the feedback that you get from the mayority clashes with your idea for the game, then as a developer you have to decide if you either please the crowd or stick by you initial idea risking a sh!tstorm, which is what we have now, hence they are not listening.

This is not always the case. Although yes, sometimes it does happen.

 

However, the case, more often than not, is when 2 seperate sides both of different ideas from the main focus the Devs want. For example, say there is a new weapon. It's pretty unbalanced. One side wants a nerf, another side wants a buff. Both ideas would work equally well, they are just different ways of dealing with it. Now, let's say DE sides with the nerf team. The Buff team will rage and cry and complain. If they sided with the Buff team, the Nerf team will rage and cry and complain. See what I'm saying?

 

I'm not saying DE is perfect, I'm saying that both the Devs and we, the community are at fault. Both of us are. It's the communication between both sides that needs working on. Everyone is equally at fault.

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This is not always the case. Although yes, sometimes it does happen.

 

However, the case, more often than not, is when 2 seperate sides both of different ideas from the main focus the Devs want. For example, say there is a new weapon. It's pretty unbalanced. One side wants a nerf, another side wants a buff. Both ideas would work equally well, they are just different ways of dealing with it. Now, let's say DE sides with the nerf team. The Buff team will rage and cry and complain. If they sided with the Buff team, the Nerf team will rage and cry and complain. See what I'm saying?

 

I'm not saying DE is perfect, I'm saying that both the Devs and we, the community are at fault. Both of us are. It's the communication between both sides that needs working on. Everyone is equally at fault.

I think you believe our 'feedback' has more weight than it really has.

At the end of the day it's their game, it's their money and it's their call, in the scenario you pictured all I see is a win-win situation for them, because no matter what you choose you will always please a group.

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I think you believe our 'feedback' has more weight than it really has.

At the end of the day it's their game, it's their money and it's their call, in the scenario you pictured all I see is a win-win situation for them, because no matter what you choose you will always please a group.

It is a winning situation in that regard, but it is also a losing situation in that, no matter what you do, there is going to be an argument about it. Take a look anywhere in General Discussion and I guarantee there are at least 5 arguments per page.

 

Anyway, maybe I do have a lot of hope in community feedback. But I gotta be honest, the hope that the community as a whole (this includes DE, the Mods, and the players) can get better is the only thing keeping me on the forums.

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I think you believe our 'feedback' has more weight than it really has.

At the end of the day it's their game, it's their money and it's their call, in the scenario you pictured all I see is a win-win situation for them, because no matter what you choose you will always please a group.

It does, the problem is time lag issue when implementing feedback and we rarely think about coding, balance but we can spit out good ideas. However we know not all good ideas work in practice of balance, and how DE wants good idea is 250 words and no more which means DE does the balancing and detailed balanced threads are not worth their time. Indeed it seems like their fault, but as Snake says, with the amount of threads they have to read with interesting titles, i guess they rather do their own balance which is easier when they can test it out as well.

 

It is funny when players claim DE makes all the problems(not you) when most of it is derived from the community itself and DE is just a medium that isn't always clear with many hiccups along the way. Almost no one wants to empathize with DE and uses hyperbolic situations to justify their stances that DE is bad, stupid, a new game company that is bad when it is really trying.

 

Time lag is one issue where we see drop rates jumping from left to right because certain players used to complain about them and etc. I guess the community hardly thinks through what they say. Furthermore there are many other physical barriers to effective implementation of feedback which we can never truly feel and given how much time they have to spend in their offices outside of the comfort of their family or loved ones and only receiving multitudes of negative feedback, it isn't something everyone wants to do their whole life.

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Arguments are irrelevant, they are the white noise I mentioned earlier.

DE knows they can't please everyone, they don't need to.

Hell, they don't even need to please the mayority, they only need to please enough players for the game to keep on going.

Back in CB, before U6, the community was small and the communication was fluid, feedback was real; they listened.
Little wonder now that they have several thousand players things changed drastically.

Again, I think people sometimes are too naive, it's not that they are having a hard time getting good feedback, it's not that they are under pressure and suffering because of all the complain threads around, they are pretty aware of all the issues we mention all the time, they just have their own agenda.

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Arguments are irrelevant, they are the white noise I mentioned earlier.

DE knows they can't please everyone, they don't need to.

Hell, they don't even need to please the mayority, they only need to please enough players for the game to keep on going.

Back in CB, before U6, the community was small and the communication was fluid, feedback was real; they listened.

Little wonder now that they have several thousand players things changed drastically.

Again, I think people sometimes are too naive, it's not that they are having a hard time getting good feedback, it's not that they are under pressure and suffering because of all the complain threads around, they are pretty aware of all the issues we mention all the time, they just have their own agenda.

You would only understand the feeling if you had to make game changing decisions every time because the system codings are in need of revamping and not revamped would cause imbalanced issues.

 

Keeping a myopic view of DE, as selfish and uncaring would mean they game should stay small and having more players are a negative. So why satisfy players and allow them to sign up at all when they could just control the amount of accounts and have weekly deletion dates in this game and just profit off those that are playing with a purpose? 

 

Also back in CB, the system codings allowed for ideas fit for the system, but as more revolutionary ideas come, the old systems will need to be revamped, the logic of the games actual work needs to be kept in continuous re-work and when it is, all this happens. Thinking that time doesn't affect feedback implementation and their ambitions, is like saying feedback never grows and forgetting new ideas are based off old ones and when old ideas are at the systems limits there will be alot of compromise.

 

Also the last point, if they have their own agenda and players don't agree to those agendas and always push DE away from it which is the case in the forums, wouldn't that contradict with what you said that "I think you believe our 'feedback' has more weight than it really has." since we can change and force DE to make compromises out of their agendas for the benefit of the community.

Edited by Jacate
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You would only understand the feeling if you had to make game changing decisions every time because the system codings are in need of revamping and not revamped would cause imbalanced issues.

 

Keeping a myopic view of DE, as selfish and uncaring would mean they game should stay small and having more players are a negative. So why satisfy players and allow them to sign up at all when they could just control the amount of accounts and have weekly deletion dates in this game and just profit off those that are playing with a purpose? 

 

Also back in CB, the system codings allowed for ideas fit for the system, but as more revolutionary ideas come, the old systems will need to be revamped, the logic of the games actual work needs to be kept in continuous re-work and when it is, all this happens. Thinking that time doesn't affect feedback implementation and their ambitions, is like saying feedback never grows and forgetting new ideas are based off old ones and when old ideas are at the systems limits there will be alot of compromise.

 

Also the last point, if they have their own agenda and players don't agree to those agendas and always push DE away from it which is the case in the forums, wouldn't that contradict with what you said that "I think you believe our 'feedback' has more weight than it really has." since we can change and force DE to make compromises out of their agendas for the benefit of the community.

What is this 'system codings' you talk about?

Are you talking about the game engine? the one they themselves made and know better than anyone?

We are not talking about a friend of yours who has a hard time coping with peer pressure, we are talking about a company that's decades old and makes games for money.

People are naive.

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What is this 'system codings' you talk about?

Are you talking about the game engine? the one they themselves made and know better than anyone?

We are not talking about a friend of yours who has a hard time coping with peer pressure, we are talking about a company that's decades old and makes games for money.

People are naive.

Yes the games codings, whether they know better they have admitted that there are alot of limitations for example Nyx absorb is at her highest aggro if it went any higher they would have to revamp and develop more codes for it. Even maps are made to specifically be efficient for the game engine to even achieve this level of graphics and FPS where possible. The game engine is not without its limits and even DE acknowledges it time to time and given all the asking for other changes, they probably know which feedback is the least bit viable which we players don't.

 

Even a company that has decades making games, doesn't mean they are experienced at handling their first F2P title. To assume one is older and therefore should be wiser is not always the case but a careless generalization that even those older without education can still make good and well informed choices for the masses which we also know that isn't the case.

 

Naive people doesn't mean changes don't come. DE does change the game because they know they are at fault at times, and by saying they are doing it just to attain their own agenda would mean that players are the agenda of DE which means not matter how naive we are, our feedback holds water which does change the game. From drop-rate changes to cost of weapons changing and buffs and nerfs of weapons to support a less grinding mentality when originally it was grindy to prevent new players to quickly finish the content would support that view.

Edited by Jacate
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I've stopped making feedback topics because I find when I do make one, it gets a few replies and then becomes buried because its not some inflammatory post. I know I've had a case were I brought up something, had it get lost, only to have someone else rage about it and then it sticks to the front page as if its been super-glued.

 

I think part of the issue is that this forum at least doesn't seem to punish stupidity. Years ago, a lot of the stuff that goes on in these forums; topic spam, double...triple posting even, rage threads, redundant threads would have lead to merges, deletions, and a mess of banned users (both temp and perm) for cluttering the forum.

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I agree with the OP!

 

Take a look at the Fan Concepts Section, Weapon Feedback Section, Website&Forum Feedback Section and many others. Most threads get no more than 10 replies and 80 views.

 

Rants like these exist: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/114478-why-do-i-try/

 

Several threads of mine follow the "<10reply80view" trend and sink to the bottom. Only the most controversial and eye-catching thread titles can become proper threads.

 

 

I wonder what can we do about this. It's almost as though the Forums are dying, only focusing on controversial things.

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I've stopped making feedback topics because I find when I do make one, it gets a few replies and then becomes buried because its not some inflammatory post. I know I've had a case were I brought up something, had it get lost, only to have someone else rage about it and then it sticks to the front page as if its been super-glued.

Take a look at the Fan Concepts Section, Weapon Feedback Section, Website&Forum Feedback Section and many others. Most threads get no more than 10 replies and 80 views.

 

Several threads of mine follow the "<10reply80view" trend and sink to the bottom. Only the most controversial and eye-catching thread titles can become proper threads.

 

I wonder what can we do about this. It's almost as though the Forums are dying, only focusing on controversial things.

I can say from experience that these are both true. Inflammatory and Non-constructive posts seem to be the popular thing going on now. If it isn't a hate thread, a rage thread, a conspiracy thread, or a controversy thread, no one cares.

 

Agree or not, I feel the forums are becoming more like the League of Legends forums day by day. Less feedback, more chatter.

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My experience is generally as above. 

Similar to chat on a superficial level, Useful communication tends to break down when you've got a few hundred "active" forum members. When you're adding people new to forums and those that anger easily into the mix, it tends to degenerate pretty quickly.

 

It's akin to bunching everyone into a small room. With a few, conversations tend to matter and have a purpose, whereas when there are a large amount of people, it turns into a shouting match.

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As an experiment, I have created a suggestion thread which has a popular and slightly controversial title: "The Rip-off WH40K and face Lawsuits Concept"

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/115396-the-rip-off-wh40k-and-face-lawsuits-concept/

 

As you can see, it is rather popular.

 

Take a look at a few other threads:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/95098-heat-a-balancing-solution-for-some-weapons-or-maybe-a-solution-to-make-weapons-more-fun/ https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96581-the-kris-in-celebration-of-warframes-south-east-asian-release/

 

The above 2 threads have extremely long titles yet are not controversial. They would be considered Eye-catching.

 

More examples:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/81504-we-can-has-nekomimi-helm-for-nova/

 

That thread is the most controversial thread I have seen and it has been moved to 3 different sections.

 

More examples:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/84978-an-idea-to-make-the-prova-awesome/

 

That thread title seems very boring. It quickly died.

 

 

 

Can we conclude that Controversy and Uniqueness correlates to a the amount of feedback a thread gets? We need more examples.

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I like how this discussion goes, since there are a lot of things, basically opinions, that just simply barge in, on and on, with the same idea about buffs and nerfs. People even shout with all-caps just to get something what they want. Other games have this issue, but some of managed to pull it off by meaning (finding an average) in all of the mayhem of adjustment requests and plant a proper solution to the situation, such as "Overpowered", "Too useless", and even "Just too uncomfortable (to play-style)".

 

I couldn't stand it myself that good equipment and characters just simply fell under the verge of negative comments about stats, even if the customization of equipment is already involved to solve this issue. Some even want to go too far with the customization just to get everything overpowered. It feels kinda dull and biased just to see a lot of yellers screaming for "Too" with another word attached to it, asides of course with lag and exploits, we don't want those to come to pass.

 

Like PsychedelicSnake said, this is also just my opinion. I didn't want to get the bad stuff into me. XD

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DE has decades in the industry, I think they can deal with feedback in the forum, the community hot topics are a good indication of what people are talking about.

 

A decade as a game studio, and just now turning to the f2p 'mmo' scene. Do they have ten years of development experience? Yes. Does that mean they have ten years of community-wrangling under their belt? Probably not. In-studio contractual development work with a publisher isn't the same as self-publishing.

 

From the Digital Extremes main site About page's FAQ:

Can I Beta Test your games?

Most of our testing is done either in-house by our team or by our publisher’s Quality Assurance staff. Occasionally we focus test our games before they are finished. When this happens we post news on our Web site and on our publisher’s Web site as well as at local video game retail stores looking for focus group participants. Keep an eye on our website for focus group testing announcements.

 

Their past games are self-tested, or by a QA team of a focus group. With the exception of the focus group (which might consist of volunteers from any demographic), these people are 'in the industry' and are called to playtest and provide specific feedback. Sure it's their job and they are making money out of this, but the people who are in QA/Focus groups know that they're there to give feedback, and probably know what form of feedback to provide to best assist the devs. Dealing with a 10~30 playtest group does not mean that they're now experienced enough to take in and sift through feedback from thousands of beta testers (most of whom don't even think of themselves as testers) coming in 24/7 in a forum space.

 

They didn't have to deal with players input during the development of say Dark Sector, because they were no active players. They could change any value and it would only affect the development build. Change the damage of a weapon in Warframe, and the response would be quick. Yes they know how to deal with feedback, but it's at a totally different scope than what they have to deal with now.

 

Back in CB, before U6, the community was small and the communication was fluid, feedback was real; they listened.

Little wonder now that they have several thousand players things changed drastically.

Again, I think people sometimes are too naive, it's not that they are having a hard time getting good feedback, it's not that they are under pressure and suffering because of all the complain threads around, they are pretty aware of all the issues we mention all the time, they just have their own agenda.

Methinks you're so steeped in the "They don't care" mindset that you failed to see the good point you brought up: It was a small community during CBT. So now we're in OBT, the only logical reason they can't read through ALL the feedback from the newly-swollen rank of players from OBT is because they don't care?

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