Feedback on 3.0 Iron Staff trial

[Loza03]

So, Wukong dropped with a trial run on Melee 3.0 stance behaviour. And?
 

S'pretty good. Not perfect, but I was expecting it to be really janky and a downgrade after some demosntratiosn. And it's not! Each combo genuinely does feel like there's a legit reason to use it, and the air combo is less janky than the current air attack (and, BTW, thank you for not just making it ground combos in air). Animations could be touched up, but that might just be the Iron Staff anyway. But I've got a few more major nitpicks that still hold the system back IMO. Right I'm not sure I could really call the new system 'better', just different. How would I make the new system better?

Well for one, Auto-blocking is still a bad idea. It's not gotten better with time. I've gotten used to it, but it's still worse than manual blocking as it still interrupts attacks. Given the greater emphasis than ever on right-click combos, having that button also put away your melee weapon is just... weird. We've got enough ways to pull out guns anyway. Plus, I'd like to aim glide with my Melee out, please, especially if we're getting aerial combat. Seriously, removing our ability to use one of the main aerial mobility features on melee and expecting us to fight in the air is... I don't understand?

Speaking of, Aerial attacks presently have no purpose. The current one, whilst janky, served as a connected for an aerial approach. The new one does too, but there's not really much point in a combo for that. The aforementioned aim glide situation would help, so that we can actually stay in midair  for longer than a second in order to use it. I'd also suggest perhaps some kind of magnetism, similar to the now-defunct Martial Magnetism conclave mod. And, of course, more enemies that can fly or some kind of Warframe-appropriate launcher move. Or both. The launcher would probably have to be a fairly wide sweeping attack that grabs a number of enemies, and I'd like to see Air attacks be above the power curve of grounded combos to justify their existence - power and mobility in one package, since they're harder to use.

Charge attacks might be useless, but that's not their fault, it's the fault of how they've been implemented and there isn't much call to remove them entirely. A heavy attack which uses the old animations with a greatly truncated wind-up could still easily fit in the new system. The lowest mobility option but with high burst damage. Like Manual Blocking, this seems like an unnecessary removal. And there's no reason to not have a right-click variant too - maybe that could be what the launcher is tied to?

Lastly, the gap-closer. Please don't keep the current 'move a set distance' system. It's janky, it's clunky, and it very clearly wasn't designed for the free-flowing Warframe of today. It's a holdover from 2.0 (which was implemented before movement 2.0, remember) that has no reason to exist in the modern game. Please remove the sudden stop and have this be a momentum-based attack instead, giving you a burst of momentum, like a bullet jump or even the untargeted version of slash dash., of course. It'd make the whole system feel much smoother and more freeform. In other words, more 'Warframe'.

 

At the end of the day, I still enjoy the new system, and it's definitely not a downgrade, but it's not an upgrade yet either.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

have this be a momentum-based attack instead, giving you a burst of momentum, like a bullet jump or even the untargeted version of slash dash., of course. It'd make the whole system feel much smoother and more freeform. In other words, more 'Warframe'.

I'd actually quite like it to be targeted, personally. Not as crazy as Garuda leaping 70m to claw an enemy, but something similar to that. The game is too hectic to precisely plan and aim every single gap closer combo we get.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

I'd actually quite like it to be targeted, personally. Not as crazy as Garuda leaping 70m to claw an enemy, but something similar to that. The game is too hectic to precisely plan and aim every single gap closer combo we get.

I suppose that'd also work. Or maybe a bit of both, kind of like Slash Dash? Momentum-based if it's out of range, targeted if it is? Albeit nowhere near as extreme

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Loza03 said:

I suppose that'd also work. Or maybe a bit of both, kind of like Slash Dash? Momentum-based if it's out of range, targeted if it is? Albeit nowhere near as extreme

I'd happily take that.

As far as I'm concerned in order for a gap closer combo to be viable for gap closing it needs to be better than a slide attack. Iron Staff's gap closer is not better than a slide attack as a slide hits enemies easier, hits more enemies and covers more distance.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

I'd happily take that.

As far as I'm concerned in order for a gap closer combo to be viable for gap closing it needs to be better than a slide attack. Iron Staff's gap closer is not better than a slide attack as a slide hits enemies easier, hits more enemies and covers more distance.

Agreed. If nothing else, it'd need to be the more mobile of the two. Slide attack doesn't necessarily cover more distance (at least in terms of mobility, in terms of damage output, yes), but it doesn't stop your movement. Your 'mobile' gap closer combo, on the other hand, completely stops forward momentum, bringing you to a screeching halt.

[vaarnaaarne]

The inputs in themselves are not bad (RMB+Forward is questionable, since you basically have to then make RMB combos into ones that are either stationary or something), the big issue is still that ZOOM SWITCH AND AUTOPARRY ARE STILL A BAD IDEA AND SHOULD BE REMOVED. If RMB is going to be used with combos, it should in no way interfere with melee like it does now. Right now RMB to switch weapon does nothing but actively disrupt melee.

Aside from that, momentum being locked in melee is still something that feels extremely clunky. The whole point of applying momentum from your own movements is that it makes melee have appropriate synergy with +sprint speed mods like it SHOULD (and once did!) because of the need to cross distances.

[RivedDrake]

I guess I am the only one who despises the Falling Oak Buster combo(the one where you just press E in place) for its awkward long pause at the end, Wukong just drops his staff then crawls to get it back, I kind of hoped it would be a looped combo that has no pause.

[Teridax68]

Agreed with pretty much all of the assessment here: Wukong's Melee 3.0 Iron Staff moveset feels like a marked improvement from current melee weapons, but putting aside some lingering systemic problems that will likely require the rest of the update to be addressed (i.e. aerial attacks, ground slams, etc. being pretty weak and not really worth using for damage), I agree that there are some key problems with the new moves: autoblock is bad and needs to be replaced with manual block somehow (if ADS also activated blocking, that could be a good compromise), and gap closer moves are still clunky and redundant as ever (we don't particularly need dedicated gap closer combos when we have ground slams and slide attacks, along with our basic movement). Additionally, my experience with Wukong's new combos is that I've virtually never used the immobile combos: even when engaging enemies at close ranges and in small spaces, I've always kept moving, because there really is no reason not to in this game. If DE wants to save themselves some work, they could very well cut out every single "stand still" combo from their future stances, and focus on delivering us two solid combos per stance based on whether or not we're aiming (or, with the above change, blocking). I think the dichotomy for melee moves should be quick versus strong/AoE: my quick attacks should let me repeatedly strike an enemy without affecting my ability to move or cast, whereas my heavy attacks should let me hit more enemies at a time, or apply stronger effects such as more damage, status procs, etc. One would therefore not need gap closers to be able to quickly reach and attack enemies from melee.