A Reaction To De_Sheldons Appology And A Small Resume About Recent Events..

[r0ckwolf]

Thank you for an honest apology. The attempt to ease some of the frustration that has been caused is very appriciated, but i´ll promise that this will happen again to you guys. Why? Not because you want to, but because your game is designed this way in the moment.

Let me explain...

It all, as always, boils down to RNG. As you release new Gear constantly you are always forced to find a place to put it, but since there are only a few places actually available, you are forced to "polute" your own droptables constantly with the new content. This dynamic steadily increases the need of you, DE, to focus on creating new places to put new drops in, instead of focusing on what the community really wants:

-Lore (each Planet with it´s own Story,Bosses,Minibosses,cinematics and unique objectives.)

-A clean, easy to navigate info-rich UI

-Endgame Challenge (In form of "Cells" -> uniquely generated Missions with short storys and customized high-end rewards, as well as MASSIVELY increaed difficulty.)

-A fair Market Price Structure, in which Weapons are equally Priced based on their Tier

-Balanced and Fun Gameplay improvements!!!

You are trapped DE, trapped in a cycle of supplying us with content which we don´t need, because you think if you stop, we will stop playing. That is not the case.

Free yourselfs from this cycle. We have more than enough Weapons to farm towards, too many infact.

The Solution is simple... Start by removing the RNG component of the game entirely. It has ONLY been the cause of frustration, unease and displeasure. Find a way to implement Mods and Weapons as fixed Rewards for certain Missions or Milestones.

How are people gonna level up Mods then?

Easy! Implement an achievment/challenge system. The foundation for that already exists in the game. For example if you wanna level up a Fire Rate Mod, you have to equip it and kill 3 enemys in 10 seconds 10 times for level 1, 25 times for level 2 and so on... Examples for other Mods are easy to find. This would be an actually fun system and would reward Skill and planing ahead other then randomizing acomplishments.

By doing this you make your game more rewarding for veterans and more accessible for new comers. Trust me that combined with fairer market pricings, people still gonna pay for convienience a lot, since the time consumption to access the whole starchart alone is already overwhelming for casual players.

You build grind walls so high that even the most dedicated MMO Players loose interest, because the outcome justifys the timeconsumption and frustration in NO way! I can promise you that the PS4/Console community will loose interest much quicker then your Open Beta Community has. We are sticking with you, because we can see the Vision of what Warframe could be, not because what it is. Your art design and basic game concept is soo inredibly promising, but ever since U7 you have not focused on that, but solely on expanding your Arsenal to an amount that it´s left feeling completely homogenized. And creating new places that may look cool, but we still left doing the same thing there as much as anywhere else.... GRINDING AND PRAYING TO RNG!!!

The repitition has become unbearable.

The sadest thing is that even if you reacted on this suggestion tommorow, it would still be already to late. A large amount of damage has already been done. Trust has decreased and expectations have been lowered.

These changes have been demanded from the community for nearly 6 months now and we have gotten nothing but false promises so far...

Many people, dedicated players, FOUNDERS of your game have already been driven away....

We understand that developing a game costs time and money, thats why we are paying you. What we dont understand and what we are not paying for is for you build things that your entire community despises and wishes to be changed.

The time to act is now DE, focus on the important things and listen to your community as you always say you want to.

GET RID OF RNG!!!!! INTERGRATE STUFF THAT WE NEED!!!

Edited September 20, 2013 by r0ckwolf

[BlueQuail]

GET RID OF RNG!!!!!

A pipe dream.

[Azure_Kytia]

I posted quite similarly in the thread, as well.

 

 

Whilst this is a step in the right direction I feel Digital Extremes needs to take a step back and take an overall view on their product and what they want it to be. There are so many underdeveloped, underutilized mechanics involved that merely have mods slapped onto them to change a variable, which is considered a fix.

 

Blocking, Stealth, Mastery, General Physics, Enemy AI, Parkour, Lore, Player Camera Positioning. These are all things that have been partially developed and implemented without much thought in regards to expansion and improvement. Whilst parkour is a fancy, flashy way of getting around it does not affect an enemy's accuracy at all, for example.

 

Why is there still no benefit to stealthily completing a mission? It's been a concept for over a year now, and it actively punishes you for it. Why is this? Whilst Grineer will hide behind their shielded friends, why are there no formations or advanced tactics? All Factions communicate with each other, why do they not act on their verbal cues in some way? Why after nearly a year of mention hasn't there been a way of making yours and fellow Tenno's bodies turn transparent when the camera is too close to them? Fighting up against a wall is next to impossible because your Warframe is still taking up the majority of the screen space.

 

Steve's original explanation of the Lore system for Update 7 held a lot of promise, and it was much more exciting than the system currently implemented; A system where you would actively find Fragments of Lore scattered throughout the levels which you could then read at your leisure. There was a more detailed post he wrote, but I'm having difficulties finding it, so this will have to do: 

__________

__________

For being a Peer to Peer game, there are all sorts of networking inconsistencies and issues which are certainly reported via the Support page with supplementary EE.logs. These issues never seem to really get resolved.

 

The game itself is coming to PS3 very soon. Whilst we are in a supposed Open Beta it is still essential that you bring Warframe up to a solid state of affairs, not simply full of places to explore with buggy, half-implemented mechanics and systems. I understand that your direction will change from time to time, and that certain aspects of the game's design seem to require focus, but when the core of the game is still in this inconsistent state, you are going to continue to have issues further down the line.

 

Regardless of the above, I acknowledge your apology and I still have some faith in you guys. I simply hope that you consider the direction you wish to take Warframe in, and incorporate the mechanics you need in there to the best of your ability.

 

[Kato-san]

Real thx goes to the dataminer for showing them how bad it was.

[WeissKreuz]

They will NEVER get rid of RNG. They simply lack the vision... or the balls.

[se05239]

I would love them to get rid of the RNG system and add a token system of sort.

[Arlayn]

not great feedback sadly.. I mean sure yeah remove RNG... then what? What do we use to replace it? I still say nearly impossible bosses, but what do you say? What do we do once we have no RNG?

[BlackbirdSR71C]

I don't play most missions, other than to unlock more assassination/survival/defense farming spots. Why? Because they don't seem interesting. Rush to objective, rush to extraction. Participate in a few uninteresting and mostly unchallenging battles along the way.

 

Rooms are to big, encounters too easy. There's not really much in terms of enemies you have to adapt to. Infested are best shot, Grineer and Corpus are ranged fighters, that's about it. Not much else to it. The Corpus Engineer and Grineer Ballista are interesting, as are the new Grineer Aerial troopers, but pretty much every other enemy needs an overhaul to be more interesting to fight against. Except grunts, like the standart Grineer/Corpus soldiers and Infested Chargers.

 

Severly decrease map size. No one likes big, empty rooms. Reward exploration, give us "combat" rooms where you have to kill all enemies to proceed. Puzzle rooms, obstacle run rooms, anything would help!

[Arlayn]

I would love them to get rid of the RNG system and add a token system of sort.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LORD ALMIGHTY!!!!! SWEET MERCY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT THE FRIGGIN TOKEN SYSTEM MADE BY THE DEVIL HIMSELF!!!

[r0ckwolf]

@azure_kyte, i have seen loads of posts with serious concerns rising in the past few days and all of them have been very constructive and elaborate. I feel like the more mature part of the community is raising it´s voice at the moment to hint DE towards a very serious situation. I only hope they will hear us and react swiftly, since many already have left the game.

[JerichoFayne]

The problem isn't the RNG.  RNG is here to stay forever.  The problem is deeper & broader than that.

 

Bottom line:  DE is full of really smart, creative people who have the best of intentions, but not a clearly outlined plan or storyboard for moving forward.

 

Where are we seeing this demonstrated?

 

1)  This faux pas with the drop tables.

 

2)  The faux pas with Stamina, which was hotfixed a day later.

 

3)  The famous ummmm & uhhhhh press conference on Youtube.

 

4)  The seemingly random way in which frames are released, buffed, nerfed, etc.

 

 

All of these are signs that different people in the organization have some reasonably good ideas, but that all departments & all company leaders are not assembled under one banner, following the same master plans.  When you have good intentions mixed with a lack of coordination, this is exactly what you get.

[Otaiken]

There are many ways to improve the current system. Weighted RNG, Token system, Fixed Rewads, etc. and then combinations of those. Anything is better than this imho.

[Otaiken]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LORD ALMIGHTY!!!!! SWEET MERCY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT THE FRIGGIN TOKEN SYSTEM MADE BY THE DEVIL HIMSELF!!!

 

Weighted RNG it is then... just don't force me to look at that twentieth frost helmet... it's.. unhealthy.

Edited September 20, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Mak_Gohae]

RNG is in basically all game that have loot.

The problem here are really the people, a lot of you folks dont come from games where you have to spend days fighting a mob that only pops up for an hour a day in a huge spawning point to get a chance at a drop. It seems you come from shooters where stuff is just handed to you.

What you folks need to do is understand that this is the system used in these types of games.

[Mak_Gohae]

The problem isn't the RNG.  RNG is here to stay forever.  The problem is deeper & broader than that.

 

Bottom line:  DE is full of really smart, creative people who have the best of intentions, but not a clearly outlined plan or storyboard for moving forward.

 

Where are we seeing this demonstrated?

 

1)  This faux pas with the drop tables.

 

2)  The faux pas with Stamina, which was hotfixed a day later.

 

3)  The famous ummmm & uhhhhh press conference on Youtube.

 

4)  The seemingly random way in which frames are released, buffed, nerfed, etc.

 

 

All of these are signs that different people in the organization have some reasonably good ideas, but that all departments & all company leaders are not assembled under one banner, following the same master plans.  When you have good intentions mixed with a lack of coordination, this is exactly what you get.

 

Oh look at head game designer Jericho here.

Why dont you impart you video game making knowledge on us.

Tells of all the studios you worked for, tell us of all the successful games you have created.

[-CK-]

i dont think everyone should get free stuff... what about us that have already spent enough for multiple gm badges... 50 plat isnt enough to make me want to stick around. in the last few months de has driven warframe into the dirt. even the top grinders and myself have been discussing the pros/cons of sticking around, hopefully u can pull the rabbit outta the hat De give us somethin to stick around for....

[r0ckwolf]

not great feedback sadly.. I mean sure yeah remove RNG... then what? What do we use to replace it? I still say nearly impossible bosses, but what do you say? What do we do once we have no RNG?

As i said in my post... Mods and certain Weapon parts should be fixed rewards for certain Missions. Higher tier Mods/Weapons obviously placed on higher tier Planets/Missions. This way you can have a goal in your farming endeavouers to strife towards. As for leveling up Mods, i also proposed an alternative, which i won´t reapeat, for the sake of shortening my comment here.

[Otaiken]

RNG is in basically all game that have loot.

The problem here are really the people, a lot of you folks dont come from games where you have to spend days fighting a mob that only pops up for an hour a day in a huge spawning point to get a chance at a drop. It seems you come from shooters where stuff is just handed to you.

What you folks need to do is understand that this is the system used in these types of games.

 

Those systems are anachronistic.. the whole F2P scene is moving away from that, I've followed A TON of F2Ps pretty much since they started to appear here and there... and Warframe feels like it's been made 2-3 years ago with this system.

 

Also, something being worse somewhere else doesn't mean it okay here or that we shouldn't do anything about it. That logic is flawed at best.

 

I played Eden Eternal for god's sake... and I still think Warframe is grindy as F***.. or rather the RNG is not as much grind as it is uncertain grind and arguing that 0.67% drop chances are fine? Maybe for masochists or extreme apologists.

Edited September 20, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[RawGritz]

I think DE just need to continue to make new areas to place new or old loot. Seems like a good motivational problem to have, if planned for...

[r0ckwolf]

The problem isn't the RNG.  RNG is here to stay forever.  The problem is deeper & broader than that.

 

Bottom line:  DE is full of really smart, creative people who have the best of intentions, but not a clearly outlined plan or storyboard for moving forward.

 

Where are we seeing this demonstrated?

 

1)  This faux pas with the drop tables.

 

2)  The faux pas with Stamina, which was hotfixed a day later.

 

3)  The famous ummmm & uhhhhh press conference on Youtube.

 

4)  The seemingly random way in which frames are released, buffed, nerfed, etc.

 

 

All of these are signs that different people in the organization have some reasonably good ideas, but that all departments & all company leaders are not assembled under one banner, following the same master plans.  When you have good intentions mixed with a lack of coordination, this is exactly what you get.

I disagree! One of the most plaguing issues in the game is RNG. It randomizes acomplishements making them frustrating to farm and no fun to acquire and it constantly raises issues like the one we had with U10, that the new stuff polutes the droptable of the old stuff. 

[Otaiken]

Anyway.. there have been many changes for better thanks to people like us... how many have there been thanks to apologists and people saying that everything is just "fine"... yeah zero.

Edited September 20, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Alohoe]

Real thx goes to the dataminer for showing them how bad it was.

you can thank him here.    http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1mrr5j/1007_datamined_reward_tables/

[r0ckwolf]

you can thank him here.    http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1mrr5j/1007_datamined_reward_tables/

true! i only summoned up knowledge that was already out there, to strengthen the argument of the community, other then that i did nothing.^^

[Jaawa]

I've followed the discussions and reactions about the development of Warframe, and currently, I think the existing systems should be just incrementally improved upon, while trying out new things, just as DE is doing. For example; I am a new-ish player, but I like the mod system as it is, and I like what I'm hearing about the changes that are coming (UI improvements mainly). I do agree about the grindy parts you mentioned, but I see that it is only because the game doesn't have story content yet. Or it has the dots but none of the lines to connect them. I don't feel strongly about anything related to droprates or such, and this is because I am simply enjoying the game mechanics themselves a bit at a time, mainly marveling at the art style, design and environments, 3d models, textures, effects. I am waiting for the story, the actual immersive parts. What does this have to do with anything you ask? The actual immersive parts of content are the heart of a game, and those should be done by taking as much time as feasible, with care and good resources. These things will come, and during and after experiencing those, I will get serious about nitpicking on details of gameplay mechanics, drop mechanics etc. But not now, DE clearly has the development under control, new things come, things work, and when they don't, they get fixed - plus they even apologize if they screw up.

 

The time to act has been always, and they are acting. I am content with how things are going, because there is real dialogue between the devs and us, I don't feel like we should be demanding anything more, this is already amazing ;)

[Mak_Gohae]

Those systems are anachronistic.. the whole F2P scene is moving away from that, I've followed A TON of F2Ps pretty much since they started to appear here and there... and Warframe feels like it's been made 2-3 years ago with this system.

 

Really? Can you give me some examples of F2P loot games where RNG is not involve to craziest levels?

 

Also, something being worse somewhere else doesn't mean it okay here or that we shouldn't do anything about it. That logic is flawed at best.

 

So it doesnt matter that Warframe is in a better position?

How is that logic flawed?

 

I played Eden Eternal for god's sake... and I still think Warframe is grindy as F***.. or rather the RNG is not as much grind as it is uncertain grind and arguing that 0.67% drop chances are fine? Maybe for masochists or extreme apologists.

 

I'm not arguing that is fine, im arguing that people freaking out like this is the only game where this appears is .... flawed.  The discussion here is about the concept rather than the actual practice.