A Reaction To De_Sheldons Appology And A Small Resume About Recent Events..

[tmtke]

Balancing a game is not that easy, as you might think, in most cases you can't say that "based on these concepts and rules everything will be OK". To give an example (I have a lot of experience on this as a developer myself):

We made an offroad simulator, and collected all official data for every car we had ingame. Also some of us went out to actual races and test drives with real cars and drivers to get the feel of that vehicle. We tried to implement everything physically correct (hey we're doing a simulator here), and it sucked big time in terms of playability. We needed to distort the parameters as far as it felt good. That took most of our time, not creating a flashy new model or something like that.

[r0ckwolf]

Balancing a game is not that easy, as you might think, in most cases you can't say that "based on these concepts and rules everything will be OK". To give an example (I have a lot of experience on this as a developer myself):

We made an offroad simulator, and collected all official data for every car we had ingame. Also some of us went out to actual races and test drives with real cars and drivers to get the feel of that vehicle. We tried to implement everything physically correct (hey we're doing a simulator here), and it sucked big time in terms of playability. We needed to distort the parameters as far as it felt good. That took most of our time, not creating a flashy new model or something like that.

This is True and although my Thread may sound a little harsh, it only serves the purpose to myabe help making the game better, since i still love it. But that´s not the issue, in no way do i want to say that the guys at DE are not skilled developers, they are just focusing on the wrong stuff, in my opinion and a quick look at current threads is enough to realize that i´m by far not the only one. To realize taht, one musn´t be a game designer.

[Mak_Gohae]

The existing descriptions incredibly underwhelming, to say the least.

"What are you looking for? A complete story to just be created and dumped in?" HELL @(*()$ YES!!!!! 

I know it takes time, but that is the issue described nistead of focusing on that, they focus on creating new weapons that nobody wants or needs.

 

The game has been active for around a year an a half. A complete storyline compared to a game that had 5 years of development is not something you are going to see for a bit.

 

And dont know why people continue to insist that something isnt worked on simply because something else happens to be released. The example of the melee debacle is the most obvious example of how different groups of people are completing their stuff at different rates so stuff gets released at different rates. Basically what you are saying is for certain section to stop their work or just DE to stop releasing stuff which is not going to make the story portion to come out any faster.

 

THe problem is that the dual skana aosts 25 plat less which makes no sense to begin with and that both, dual and single skana are ridiculously overprized for a starting weapon.

Again, Pricecreep and balance issues.

 

I meant to say that DSkana is cheaper cause they want to people to spend money on that. The Skana is already given to you for free so the price is really based on how you much want the free starting item back rather than the value of their stats.

 

1. I have, all my clanmates have, anyone with fully modded gear can do it.

 

2.Yes it has and it´s bad because of that.

 

3.Also true, they did say that. Nonetheless, this is a bad design choice, since now they have to balance the Endgame content to make it aproachable for new Players, which destroys the whole concept of Endgame content.

 

1.I meant defense because yeah all the other game types can be completed solo.

 

2.That's sort of the standard in games so until a tremendous system that can work for them is invented they are going to stay with the standard. They are not Riot Game who got half a billion from some Chinese company that lets them experiment tremendously.

 

3. Im with you on difficulty but DE is not and every time they bring that out it gets toned down. We seem in the minority because most folks rally against it. So either DE stick to their guns or the idea of difficulty will not exist based on what the population demands.

 

As i said a couple of times now in this Thread, the problem is not that they are saing they wont do it! They are saying they gonna do it, but end up doing something else. We all realize that changing stuff takes time, but why not focus on the stuff that it is in desperate need of a change first, before adding new stuff.THis has been the progression of the last year. We hint a things in desperate need of change, DE says: "sure"! And the nnothing happens... A new Update arrives, new stuff appears that had nothing to do with the things that needed to change, but it creates a whole bunch of Problems that must be fixed first.... Cycle starts anew!!! 

 

That is the issue!

 

Again, there is a schedule on how stuff is build. If people randomly are working on seven different thing where no one is in the same page it just creates a mess. IN fact.... hold on im going to post the idea.

[Silvershadow66]

Thank you for an honest apology. The attempt to ease some of the frustration that has been caused is very appriciated, but i´ll promise that this will happen again to you guys. Why? Not because you want to, but because your game is designed this way in the moment.

 

You think this happened just because there is an RNG in the game?

 

No, stuff like this happens in software development all the time. I've worked in the business for nearly 30 years and weird stuff happens all the time. Even with a detailed list of exactly what needs to be done (and where everything is located) one time someone will just manage to skip a whole step and it will all go wrong. Happened on a project I worked on, spent days working on the instructions and going through it with the people involved and it all went wrong, thankfully it happened on the practice deployment to the test system and they got it right when the product went live.

[tmtke]

Also there is the problem of parallelism to solve in developement. While Scott and Steve are working on fundamental changes (and they are just 2 guys), they can't work on 10 different things in the same time. The company also have to give work for the others, so it's obvious that they can implement the scarves more easily, because it doesn't need actual gameplay changes, just design/content work and a bit of engine coding.

[CloudPies]

Agree 100%!

Along with this, I just hope they would dedicate a signification amount of time to fixing the constant bugs that have never been resolved. As well as UI.

[arch111]

I have not been playing in hard core mode. I still got 1a warframe, and have yet to see the end planets.

Funny thing tho, i began just before u8. And the grind, the maps etc have allways seemed like copies of each other.

Im still playing, but casually. A game that tries to force me to do things,

i usually avoid. And warframe is all about weapons and warframes.

You all talk about the rng and the market. This is important for the mechanics and balance of the gameworld.

But it is allso only a qyestion of who has the most stuff/warframes.

Let me share what a casual like me wants.

When i first tried it it was confusing, hard to get into and gave me a feeling of have to hurry-mentality. Everyone was running.

I was carried to many maps without realizing there was a map-progression. I just went with the flow.

I soon realized i had to grind the first planets for mats and xp. Without either, i was no match for the enemy.

But as i grinded and bought BPs i couldnt build, because the mats were in places spelling death for me, i sort of got ttapped.

Every major update changed the game very much, and yet not at all. The grind was still the soul of the game.

Today I feel nothing has really changed.

Now let me tell you why that is.

I thought wf was a space ninja version of left for dead, or cod.

There is no red thread binding the planets together. There is no story and thus, no Aha! Or Epic! moments.

The chat and squad-side of wf is broken, since its still very much a one mans game.

The world is beautiful! The new tiles, frames, guns etc are all awesome.

But the drive to be surprised, to explore, to take on challenges together and feel pride when you make it, this I am still longing for.

Why not have common goals, missions, stories like in the events? Why are not certain warframes and weapons better against certain enemies?

If all there is to wf is the grind, and gear, then focus on that.

Right now I dont know what it is.

Maby if DE releases its map maker that they spoke of, the community will make it happen.

[r0ckwolf]

You think this happened just because there is an RNG in the game?

 

No, stuff like this happens in software development all the time. I've worked in the business for nearly 30 years and weird stuff happens all the time. Even with a detailed list of exactly what needs to be done (and where everything is located) one time someone will just manage to skip a whole step and it will all go wrong. Happened on a project I worked on, spent days working on the instructions and going through it with the people involved and it all went wrong, thankfully it happened on the practice deployment to the test system and they got it right when the product went live.

No i would not say all taht went wrong in U10 is due to the RNG, i completely understand that bugs and problems like these are part of the development cycle of any software. Also i do not claim to posess special knowledge about your line of work or programing in generall. What  i pointed out though is something that any experienced gamer can see. A bad design choice that may not solely responsible for the issues that plagued us, but in a way is the root of the problem. At least when it comes to how you acuire weapons and mods. Marketprices and lore are obviously another topic.

[r0ckwolf]

I have not been playing in hard core mode. I still got 1a warframe, and have yet to see the end planets.

Funny thing tho, i began just before u8. And the grind, the maps etc have allways seemed like copies of each other.

Im still playing, but casually. A game that tries to force me to do things,

i usually avoid. And warframe is all about weapons and warframes.

You all talk about the rng and the market. This is important for the mechanics and balance of the gameworld.

But it is allso only a qyestion of who has the most stuff/warframes.

Let me share what a casual like me wants.

When i first tried it it was confusing, hard to get into and gave me a feeling of have to hurry-mentality. Everyone was running.

I was carried to many maps without realizing there was a map-progression. I just went with the flow.

I soon realized i had to grind the first planets for mats and xp. Without either, i was no match for the enemy.

But as i grinded and bought BPs i couldnt build, because the mats were in places spelling death for me, i sort of got ttapped.

Every major update changed the game very much, and yet not at all. The grind was still the soul of the game.

Today I feel nothing has really changed.

Now let me tell you why that is.

I thought wf was a space ninja version of left for dead, or cod.

There is no red thread binding the planets together. There is no story and thus, no Aha! Or Epic! moments.

The chat and squad-side of wf is broken, since its still very much a one mans game.

The world is beautiful! The new tiles, frames, guns etc are all awesome.

But the drive to be surprised, to explore, to take on challenges together and feel pride when you make it, this I am still longing for.

Why not have common goals, missions, stories like in the events? Why are not certain warframes and weapons better against certain enemies?

If all there is to wf is the grind, and gear, then focus on that.

Right now I dont know what it is.

Maby if DE releases its map maker that they spoke of, the community will make it happen.

I feel you brother.^^ 

 

This is it! Described as a personnal experience what all the veterans are warning DE about forever now.... Because it makes no difference if you are new or if you are here since day 1, The issue is the same. Without an meaningfull evolution in what the metagame is, the thing that keeps players hooked, the game will die before it´s even released. 

[ThePresident777]

It does not all boil down to RNG, with me.  It all boils down to game modes with me because I like to play Nova and M.Prime All The Things and watch my team break the massive piniata I just made and I like to play Ash in no shields + energy drain Nightmare Mode.  You see?  I like variety therefore I hate nerfs and balance.  It would be a great thing if I could see which nightmare mode is assigned to a location so I can play what I want when I want becaue it's my time I'm spending.

[Tei_S]

GET RID OF RNG!!!!!

 

I'm going to say something that's going to blow your mind.

Are you ready? You might need to sit down first, this is going to hit you hard.

 

You're wrong.

 

Yeah, I know. That's a lot to swallow. I'll let you mull that over for a bit, and while you're doing that, I'll say this.

 

Almost every F2P game that has MMO elements has RNG at some point. It is practically unavoidable.

TF2? Has RNG. Loads of it.

Vindictus? God-awful amounts of it.

Any Nexon game for that matter? Basically, yeah.

Digimon Online? The heck is that? Sounds silly, but it is heavy RNG.

Ragnarok Online 2? Yeah, that too. Quest drops are nice, but it all boils down to the same thing.

 

RNG is not a bad thing. Not getting the things you want is not a bad thing. Just suck up your pride and desire, and keep trying. The reward is getting the item you want, not whatever item you get. It's like a slot machine where the only thing you put in is time.

 

The only alternative I've personally seen that has been offered so far is a token system, which would only lead to grinding for tokens. It fixes nothing. Vindictus is exact same way with RNG, if not far worse, and it has a token system on top of that. For once-a-day raids. You can get up to ten tokens a day (Though I think they recently upped it? Not sure). The most valuable items (i.e., the only ones that are truly difficult to get) require a few hundred seals, if I'm not mistaken. Have fun with the grind! Oh, what's that? You're not having fun? Well sorrrrrrrrrrry! YOU asked for it!

 

Lore is being worked on. Be patient. DE can't churn this stuff out overnight.

Fill in the blanks with your own stories if it bothers you that much.

 

Oh, and by the way, isn't it easy to say "this should be cheaper" when you don't know the costs involved in running a company that makes a free game? If they aren't making enough money, things will be rectified. If you notice, the games that have things absurdly cheap -- TF2, namely -- typically have absurdly large playerbases that are willing to pump out equally absurd amounts of cash without actually realizing how much they've spent.

 

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[r0ckwolf]

DroppedaBeat, on 21 Sept 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

 

 

Almost every F2P game that has MMO elements has RNG at some point. It is practically unavoidable.

TF2? Has RNG. Loads of it.

Vindictus? God-awful amounts of it.

Any Nexon game for that matter? Basically, yeah.

Digimon Online? The heck is that? Sounds silly, but it is heavy RNG.

Ragnarok Online 2? Yeah, that too. Quest drops are nice, but it all boils down to the same thing.

well i must have missed Warframe becoming an MMO then.... 

on a more serious note, yes rng can work in an elaborate refined system, when there are multiple ways to acquier gear another way. In every MMO or RPG their always MIssions that offer fixed rewards or some sort of Foundry in which u can build items at least. But we have a Foundry you say?! Yes. But what good does it do when 70% of the Bp´s can only be acquired through, guess what, RNG.

Warframe is not that kind of game and that is not my personal opinion, but an obervation i´m expressing here. RNG does not wotk for Warframe, it doesn´t have an big open world with dungeons and a steady loot supply. We have small mission based levels that tend to reapeat itself rather quickly and forcing us to farm for an ever expanding arsenal of weapons and mods, which barely differentiate themself from each other does not help the game.

 

Designing certain Missions to give us Mods or Weapons as rewards would.

Adding Lore to the equasion would help even more!!!

 

In a mission/level type desing structure rng is bad beause the randomization forces you to repeat certain missions an x amount until you are lucky. RNG, as you correctly stated, has it´s roots in MMo´s, massive worlds in which exploration is a key game element. This is NOT the case in Warframe, sure you can discover hidden paths in levels, but as we all know MOds only drop from enemys, or are rewarded after a mission. so we are forced to speed run a certain mission and hope for the best. Instead of been given a tsak with a clear goal and reward ahead of us.

 

Not only is your tone and ignorance unwelcome in this Thread, you have also completely missed the point me and others have been trying to make. It is not all about RNG. It´s only one of the core issues that plague the game and could be changed for the better. Mainly RNg is an example! An example of how DE is not focusing on fighting repitition and grind, but keeps adding on to it. It´s one of a few examples. Would you have taken your time to read this Thread thouroughly, you would have known.

[Proofslank]

I am going to give my two cents. I think what is happening is the "beta mentality" which is characterized as having a open beta and the people who play in said beta burn out. The beta testers play the game, like they would have if it wasn't a beta and slowly burn out so by the time of the game launch the people are burnt.

I don't feel the same way about the RNG as you do, and have a hard time understanding your problem with it. I am not saying I am confused I understand what your saying, but I cant wrap my head around it. I can  understand people have different outlooks on things and this is where I think my trouble to understand you comes from.

I don't really have trouble with RNG in Warframe it can get frustrating but its not that big a deal. You speak about the people who played the game a lot, and how you speak for them. I don't share your sentiment I would classify myself as one of those gamers being that I have put in 250 some hours in the game. I have practically farmed for every Warframe the only pieces I am missing are Excalibur’s chassis and systems , Mag primes chassis, and Nekro systems. As far as Excalibur is concerned I will grind for him over time since I don’t really have as much interest to play him. Mag prime and Nekro I am currently farming for and the only reason I don't have it is because me and my friends farm together. I haven't played all of them yet being that I don't have enough Warframe slots, but the only thing left to do is buy a slot and click the build button and wait three days for volt,ember,rhino,and trinity. Though every other frame has been leveled to 30. As far as weapons I am missing all the clan weapons , and most of the prime weapons. However as far as "easy access weapons" I have leveled most of them to 30 and or farmed for them. The on easy access weapon I don’t have are the miter and the "nail gun". Which I haven’t farmed for yet since I don’t really like the new planet. I have farmed for everything I own all except Warframe slots and weapon slots oh and 1 potato this stuff I bought with platinum. So after what I would say is quite of lot of effort put in I still have vigor for this game.

I have been playing since Easter of update 7. I do see problems with the game, and some of the fix's you propose could work for some of the problems . I just don't co-sign with you  people are vocal about a problem in this community which tell DE what they could fix. However they have acknowledge these problems and said they were to work on them. So where as it may be a problem now I believe they are going to fix it. So for this I would co-sign with the user Ghoe. The game is still a beta and is ever changing. I am sure with feedback like yours and other and time this game will become a more polished gem. I don’t have any proposition to some of the problems I have with this game which include, things like the UI, game play, networking stuff and more. In contrast to yours opinion I just don't agree with your points about RNG, and MODS. However I am going to continue to play this game and see how this game plays out. So feedback like yours will help put ideas out there I just figured I should voice my opinion about this. As it seemed like my opinion weren’t represented. I am have faith that this game will be awesome, it is awesome for me and can only get better.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Proofslank

[MDG3ist]

You wouldn't even have to implement a challenge system to level up mods, just make fusion cores drop from killed mobs as normal, and have every mission offer the same guaranteed mod as a reward on completion.  You want barrel diffusion, you run X mission on Y planet and that's what it gives you at the end.  Want to level it up?  Run that mission a bunch more times and/or use fusion cores that drop from mobs.  They have enough planets and mods now to have very little duplication, and enough of a level range to make sure the rare mods are a challenge to acquire.  It will also encourage people to play maps that are currently interesting and fun but offer no real reward, so are neglected.

 

 

[XSuzumeX]

The only alternative I've personally seen that has been offered so far is a token system, which would only lead to grinding for tokens. It fixes nothing. Vindictus is exact same way with RNG, if not far worse, and it has a token system on top of that. For once-a-day raids. You can get up to ten tokens a day (Though I think they recently upped it? Not sure). The most valuable items (i.e., the only ones that are truly difficult to get) require a few hundred seals, if I'm not mistaken. Have fun with the grind! Oh, what's that? You're not having fun? Well sorrrrrrrrrrry! YOU asked for it!

Yeah I have to agree with the whole token system not working here mostly due to the drop rates not being that horrible.The system helps out in Vindictus because the drop rate on those rare items is so abysmal that most players will probrably finish collecting the required tokens before it even drops once for them.In this game people would just be like "wow I have to do 50 runs for one piece??thats too much grind no ty".

A possible solution that still involves rng could be something like the way the alert rng is setup were once youve gotten that piece the droprate on it lowers a bit allowing for a different piece to eventually drop.The only problem I see with that is that it would have to be tweaked so that it doesn't affect other teammates other wise the game would go from co-op to solo;maybe making everyone get different drops from the bosses perhaps.Void is trickier because of forma so I'm not sure what I would suggest for that.

[Nyxcha]

well.
and i know this is off topic since it Vindi.

they did remove the token system eventually.

but only because everyone left.

seriously at most theres MAYBE 500 players on west and 500 players on east server.

Vindictus started out so successfully (i believe it was 500k players?) and token system killed it.
well. Token System. and Nexon NA's crappy support.

(is mourning Mabinogi)

[r0ckwolf]

I never said that i want a token system!

[YTakuyaY]

well.

and i know this is off topic since it Vindi.

they did remove the token system eventually.

but only because everyone left.

seriously at most theres MAYBE 500 players on west and 500 players on east server.

Vindictus started out so successfully (i believe it was 500k players?) and token system killed it.

well. Token System. and Nexon NA's crappy support.

(is mourning Mabinogi)

I have enjoyed the boss fights on Vindictus and Dragon Nest. The solo attempts are fun especially! The only downfall is that it's published by Nexon NA for the U.S.

It's a real shame how those beautiful gems are ruined by bad publisher.

[Nyxcha]

I have enjoyed the boss fights on Vindictus and Dragon Nest. The solo attempts are fun especially! The only downfall is that it's published by Nexon NA for the U.S.

It's a real shame how those beautiful gems are ruined by bad publisher.

agreed Nexon is a great company. but Nexon NA just sucks.

hoping every day Nexon JP will fire everyone in Nexon NA and then save Mabinogi.