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LeMoog

Trading suggestion to prevent resale of items and abuse of alt accounts

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2 hours ago, LeMoog said:

ignorance is ONLY a lack of knowledge, in this case that the reseller is buying  the item for less than they could sell it for, personally when I trade it is ONLY for items I have obtained myself by playing the game

Converting prime parts for baro items would not be trading them so unaffected

Buying stuff to gift would be unaffected since again it doesn't matter if the gifted item is untradable since you are giving it to be used, if you want to gift them plat then you still could.

 

i dont believe u are stupid im sure ur not and that is not sarcasm 
but what u say its retarded to the sky
 

lets go to real world for sec ok?
farmer sell 1 bag of potatoes to shop for lets say 5$ 
do u believe even for second that shop will sell that bag of potatoes for 5$? 

i believe u have good intentions just retarded idea to implement it

but i have solution for ur issue with alts (btw i dont have idea why u have issue with them i dont give 2 F**s about them so plz explain)
anyway solution to ur  idea is not to limit item trade count but set item auto-pricing

sine then re-selling items would dont matter and alts would not matter
but wait does not vaulting and un vaulting items goes around idea of price fluctuation?


u know free market isnt called FREE market for no reason and u care to try to control it
and every1 who knows something about economy will tell u that pushing regulation into free market destroys it

only regulation should to keep that we all play by same rules and have same fair chances 


so if i can buy lets say arcane grace for 100 plat at morning and sell it for 400 plat and night and you also can do that
then where u see a problem?

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2 hours ago, Firetrucksrule said:

I've spent hundreds of dollars on this game and thousands of hours. This is a terrible idea, possibly the worst I've ever seen on these forums and that's saying something. 

Most people don't want to wait when they're buying or selling things. Flippers offer the service of buying out people who want to make a sale and selling to people who want to instantly buy something. People who sell to or buy off of flippers don't care about making the absolute maximum profit from their sale, they're looking to get it done in a timely manner. Flippers offer a service to people who value their time. They aren't leeching from anybody, they're offering a service to people who are looking to save time in exchange for profit. I'm a hard line communist and I support the flippers right to profit, you've obviously flat out never involved yourself in any serious manner of trading if you're holding this position. Furthermore your entire solution is to a non issue in the game. If clan mates are selling things you're giving to them for them to use then either kick them for it or stop giving them more things. It's a non issue, and even if it wasn't banning re selling is a non solution.

100% agree. Exactly. flippers also offer very valuable services to the system by staying in the game longer to acquire items for players who don’t have much time to wait. And time is Platinum in the game as time is money in the real world. Flippers are rewarded for that and it’s a good thing. 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

It’s a free market so there are no monopolists unless you are talking about exclusive items but you DO NOT need to buy any of these if you think so. 

For the middle men idea, it’s totally false. All items are traded at the agreed upon values. And they can be traded again and the prices are market values. If you do not like how pricy particular items are, you can always try to get them at higher prices and sell them cheap or cheaper to benefit others since you have such high morality and are just. 

If players freely admit to buying up items to increase the price then that is very much what a monopoly is about.

 I agree that the price is what buyer and seller agree, the seller spent time getting the item for sale and they are deserving of the full sale price, you will also notice reference to external markets for warframe items in this thread.

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that these external markets are separate to DE and their revenues from advertising for instance or for passing on  contact details are not passed to DE either.

I personally would like to see a real market within WF like say steam's where the "sellers" post their items for sale and cannot just not log in so as to game the prices for their own benefit but that is a separate issue and not something that would address the issue I have raised.

Edited by LeMoog

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I only use 1 account and I'm strongly against that. I love me some trading and selling prime sets is a good way to get money, but some parts require more work to get, so instead I often opt out to just buying 1-2 missing parts and then selling a full set. Rivens are also a good example. We have limited space for those, and if I,say, buy one for 200 plat, use it for a while, but then decide to switch to another weapon, should I just throw away all the plat I've spent and transmute / dissolve that riven to free space? What about people who buy off a bunch of cheap primes / mods that's just been released and farmed in bulk, just to sell them a lot later to people who weren't around to farm those items? That's how dealers / shops work in real life, why should it be prohibited in WF?

 

Also, I'm not quite sure on what you mean by those "resellers" in the first place. Any and all interactions between accounts of one player are a bannable offence.

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9 minutes ago, ZeroZX4 said:

i dont believe u are stupid im sure ur not and that is not sarcasm 
but what u say its retarded to the sky
 

lets go to real world for sec ok?
farmer sell 1 bag of potatoes to shop for lets say 5$ 
do u believe even for second that shop will sell that bag of potatoes for 5$? 

i believe u have good intentions just retarded idea to implement it

but i have solution for ur issue with alts (btw i dont have idea why u have issue with them i dont give 2 F**s about them so plz explain)
anyway solution to ur  idea is not to limit item trade count but set item auto-pricing

sine then re-selling items would dont matter and alts would not matter
but wait does not vaulting and un vaulting items goes around idea of price fluctuation?


u know free market isnt called FREE market for no reason and u care to try to control it
and every1 who knows something about economy will tell u that pushing regulation into free market destroys it

only regulation should to keep that we all play by same rules and have same fair chances 


so if i can buy lets say arcane grace for 100 plat at morning and sell it for 400 plat and night and you also can do that
then where u see a problem?

If DE chose to implement fixed pricing then fine as it would also act to stop alts for resellers as well but I do not see it being any more popular since so many have posted here how they should be free to abuse ignorant players,perhaps the feeling of superiority is the only reason they run the game.

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Most people don't even use alt accounts for plat I feel like it's so they can get a fresh look at the game and learn from their mistakes the first time or maybe they just like the grinding wanted to play more but with their main they got bored because they used everything in the game already. Or maybe they help their friends grind in their clan in the event that they run their own dojo. Plus what does alts have to do with trading in the first place? Most people don't have 2 odd the same console/PC and can't trade between their accounts to start with abs even then it wouldn't matter because both accounts still only have that 1 item.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

100% agree. Exactly. flippers also offer very valuable services to the system by staying in the game longer to acquire items for players who don’t have much time to wait. And time is Platinum in the game as time is money in the real world. Flippers are rewarded for that and it’s a good thing. 

So you are saying that players who have less time to spend playing and getting the parts themselves should be taxed by other players if they attempt to trade for them? or are you talking about another player obtaining them a missing part that they then gift them out of altruism? if the later then that is covered under suggested changes to gifting

 

Edited by LeMoog

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27 minutes ago, LeMoog said:

If players freely admit to buying up items to increase the price then that is very much what a monopoly is about.

I think you mean "a monopolist" is about. 
Here is the definition of monopolist from Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

monopolist

 noun
mo·nop·o·list | \ mə-ˈnä-pə-list  \

Definition of monopolist

: a person who monopolizes
 

 In warframe, there is no such thing as monopoly as there are many people selling/trading same items or Rivens of same Stats, so the price of any item is set between the middle ground of who can sell the lowest and who can pay the highest to pay. It's called FREE MARKET. 
Everyone can set their own prices to sell and pay whatever they think are reasonable. On the contrary, your proposal will create an at best inefficient market and at worst destroying the market. I want to be able to sell whatever is in my account at prices whatever others are willing to pay. This is not your business unless you want to be the monopolist who can control prices. Check your own logic please before you write. 

 

 
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14 minutes ago, LeMoog said:

So you are saying that players who have less time to spend playing and getting the parts themselves should be taxed by other players if they attempt to trade for them? or are you talking about another player obtaining them a missing part that they then gift them out of altruism? if the later then that is covered under suggested changes to gifting

 

What solution do you propose to those who would prefer to spend less time in game and still want to get certain items or Mods that take HOURS or in Riven's case, hundreds of hours to grind for a specific stats? They can buy them from the free market. Or you can run a Warframe charity to give your items away. Are you?

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1 hour ago, Ascarith said:

Help me understand how your system allows "nab good deals" but restricts reselling. I might have missed that when I skimmed through the rest of the thread. 

Hopefully you'll also forgive me for putting little stock in someone's own assessment of his/her attitude. To (maybe) clarify, my perception you have an attitude problem doesn't stem from the content (idea-wise) of your posts or the position you've taken. It comes from the manner in which you've attempted to defend against counterarguments. 

If items cannot be resold then that prevents reselling, I thought it axiomatic but there you go, your assessment of "attitude problem" is subjective and hence not necessarily correct as so many of my replies were to similarly axiomatic posts then you will need to forgive me

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, LeMoog said:

If DE chose to implement fixed pricing then fine as it would also act to stop alts for resellers as well but I do not see it being any more popular since so many have posted here how they should be free to abuse ignorant players,perhaps the feeling of superiority is the only reason they run the game.

Fixed pricing, would you want your certain items that are worth let's say 1000 platinum to be "fixed" at just 100P? Who is to set that fixed pricing? You? That will create a terrible market. 

Edited by George_PPS

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Posted (edited)

People do have other options to buying as well I bought my friend a Rhino Prime set for 375p over a year ago and he paid me back with Ayatan Sculptures at 5p each over the course of the next month. Not all players are this nice I understand that but if you see a price you don't like you simply don't buy it... However I do feel they could add a fair market value system into the game showing the last 24 hours worth of actual trades that concluded and it display on the trade item itself. When multiple items are traded it could split the values based on other trades made prior to get a baseline for the other player.

Edited by (PS4)Ryfore2
Added an idea

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Fixed pricing, would you want your certain items that are worth let's say 1000 platinum to be "fixed" at just 100P? Wow is to set that fixed pricing? You? That will create a terrible market. 

I never said I did, in fact you are the only one to say that in this thread, I wouldn't mind fixed pricing if the price was acceptable to the parties trading

Edited by LeMoog

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7 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

I think you mean "a monopolist" is about. 
Here is the definition of monopolist from Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

monopolist

 noun
mo·nop·o·list | \ mə-ˈnä-pə-list  \

Definition of monopolist

: a person who monopolizes
 

 In warframe, there is no such thing as monopoly as there are many people selling/trading same items or Rivens of same Stats, so the price of any item is set between the middle ground of who can sell the lowest and who can pay the highest to pay. It's called FREE MARKET. 
Everyone can set their own prices to sell and pay whatever they think are reasonable. On the contrary, your proposal will create an at best inefficient market and at worst destroying the market. I want to be able to sell whatever is in my account at prices whatever others are willing to pay. This is not your business unless you want to be the monopolist who can control prices. Check your own logic please before you write. 

 

 

I am not in the US and you clearly understood the point I was making even if you felt you had to translate 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, LeMoog said:

If items cannot be resold then that prevents reselling, I thought it axiomatic but there you go, your assessment of "attitude problem" is subjective and hence not necessarily correct as so many of my replies were to similarly axiomatic posts then you will need to forgive me

There isn't a "right" or "wrong" when it comes down to whether or not you have an attitude problem. I'm not interested in being "right" on that matter anyhow. I only care about it insofar as it makes it hard to get down to the substance of what you are saying.

I still don't really get what your system looks like. Yes, I get that if the system only allows a specific item to be traded once, that stops reselling. What I don't understand is how your system accounts for "nab good deals" scenarios, because those generally rely on reselling to friends at bargain prices (which is impossible under your single-trade system).

You mentioned some change to the gifting system (see below), which I assume is how you plan to account for this. But if you fleshed that out, I missed it or did not understand it (and was hoping you would elaborate). 

24 minutes ago, LeMoog said:

So you are saying that players who have less time to spend playing and getting the parts themselves should be taxed by other players if they attempt to trade for them? or are you talking about another player obtaining them a missing part that they then gift them out of altruism? if the later then that is covered under suggested changes to gifting

 

[emphasis mine]

Edited by Ascarith

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ascarith said:

There isn't a "right" or "wrong" when it comes down to whether or not you have an attitude problem. I'm not interested in being "right" on that matter anyhow. I only care about it insofar as it makes it hard to get down to the substance of what you are saying.

I still don't really get what your system looks like. Yes, I get that if the system only allows a specific item to be traded once, that stops reselling. What I don't understand is how your system accounts for "nab good deals" scenarios, because those generally rely on reselling to friends at bargain prices (which is impossible under your single-trade system).

You mentioned some change to the gifting system (see below), which I assume is how you plan to account for this. But if you fleshed that out, I missed it or did not understand it (and was hoping you would elaborate). 

[emphasis mine]

DR:TL works both ways but simple put the existing gifting system is extended to allow the passing of inventory item between players to address the issue when players are not online at the same time. Since the item is transferred rather than sold then it would not be subject to trade limitations.

Clearly if the suggested change to trading was put in place then those that want to resell could abuse the system so as to continue as they have and hence it might require a tax to be applied to gifting items to prevent this. Given that those who insist they do this out of altrusim and care for other players then I am sure they would not mind paying a premium to do it,  especially in the hope that it would be returned in the future, either way it's abuse would act as a tax on reselling and move the market back to those that do the work getting the reward. ditto for the alt resellers

Edited by LeMoog

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2 minutes ago, LeMoog said:

DR:TL works both ways but simple put the existing gifting system is extended to allow the passing of inventory item between players to address the issue when player are not online at the same time. Since the item is transferred rather than sold then it would not be subject to trade limitations. Clearly if the suggested change to trading was put in place then those that want to resell could abuse the system so as to continue as they have and hence it might require a tax to be applied to gifting items to prevent this. Given that those who insist they do this out of altrusim and care for other players then I am sure they would not mind paying a premium to do it,  especially in the hope that it would be returned in the future, either way it's abuse would act as a tax on reselling and move the market by to those that do the work getting the reward

The reason that wouldn't work is the same as now it's just an extra step and even less trust between the trading and recieving party since plat would be traded for a bronze mod then the item re-gifted instead of re-traded

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, (PS4)Ryfore2 said:

The reason that wouldn't work is the same as now it's just an extra step and even less trust between the trading and recieving party since plat would be traded for a bronze mod then the item re-gifted instead of re-traded

my thinking was that any tax would have to be for plat in the event that the system was abused, since those that want this insist that they are philanthropists then aiding DE in the process by removing plat from circulation should meet no complaint

Edited by LeMoog

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2 hours ago, Golineth said:

This is starting to sound less and less like "stop alt accounts" and more like "stop traders"

then you misunderstand, trade continues as before abusive trading is curtained

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4 minutes ago, LeMoog said:

my thinking was that any tax would have to be for plat in the event that the system was abused, since those that want this insist that they are philanthropists then aiding DE in the process by removing plat from circulation should meet no complaint

I could understand that but then what if the item being traded is worth less than that amount the players are basically paying twice for a single trade and are being ripped off at that point too...

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, (PS4)Ryfore2 said:

I could understand that but then what if the item being traded is worth less than that amount the players are basically paying twice for a single trade and are being ripped off at that point too...

there is no "ripping off" the philanthropist gets bonus karma and the item receiver get what they were unable to obtain via playing/trading themselves, everyone happy, the current trade price of the item was never an issue for the philanthropist as the act of giving is the only reward they seek

Edited by LeMoog

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35 minutes ago, LeMoog said:

I never said I did, in fact you are the only one to say that in this thread, I wouldn't mind fixed pricing if the price was acceptable to the parties trading

So WHO is going to fix the prices and HOW are you going to fix it so EVERYONE will agree with those pricing? It sounds like you want to destroy free market trading. 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

So WHO is going to fix the prices and HOW are you going to fix it so EVERYONE will agree with those pricing? It sounds like you want to destroy free market trading. 

I never proposed fixed pricing I merely agreed that it would also address the problem, your query would be better put to the proposer but it would seem that regardless active traders would recover what they lost trade for trade

Edited by LeMoog

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3 minutes ago, LeMoog said:

there is no "ripping off" the philanthropist gets bonus karma and the item receiver get what they were unable to obtain via playing/trading themselves, everyone happy, the current trade price of the item was never an issue for the philanthropist as the act of giving is the only reward they seek

Yes, only if one can and chooses to be the philanthropist, but you cant force everyone to be a philanthropist. You do not have the power. You do not interfere others businesses and trading. And if you do and force fixed pricing or how others can trade, you are a dictator. That's EVIL despite how moral you try to be and show others. 

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1 minute ago, LeMoog said:

I never proposed fixed pricing I merely agreed that it would also address the problem 

It doesn't matter or not if you have proposed fixed pricing because you support the idea as part of the solution to what you propose. Please reply the main points of others replies.

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