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(XB1)Architect Prime

I'd like to see future frames be shorter and taller.

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I can hear them already: "ITS TOO MUCH WORK FOR DEEEEE!!! THE WORK LOAD!!! THE GAMEPLAY MEXHABICS AHHHHHH!!!!!". NOW THAT we have that out of the way. I'd just like to say that I would very much welcome different scales of frames. A large frame can be more powerful in my opinion, because it would be super easily hit. Any thoughts on how this could work I welcome. Look at Titania.

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24 minutes ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

I can hear them already: "ITS TOO MUCH WORK FOR DEEEEE!!! THE WORK LOAD!!! THE GAMEPLAY MEXHABICS AHHHHHH!!!!!". NOW THAT we have that out of the way. I'd just like to say that I would very much welcome different scales of frames. A large frame can be more powerful in my opinion, because it would be super easily hit. Any thoughts on how this could work I welcome. Look at Titania.

Not gonna lie but I do agree with this 

When you look at other frames you stop and wonder why isn't there a height difference between them like chroma and Inaros.

 

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28 minutes ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

A large frame can be more powerful in my opinion, because it would be super easily hit.

Which matters in a game where hitboxes mean something. Meanwhile lots of enemies have hitscan weapons, evasive moves have actual DR on them and not just a penalty to enemy aiming, and every single cosmetic in the game is made to fit on the one skeleton.

I don't know why this would be anything more than cosmetic, mentioning the power of the frame is a silly tangent.

31 minutes ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

Look at Titania.

Please list the things about Titania you feel support your idea. I mean, look at Inaros.

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1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

Which matters in a game where hitboxes mean something. Meanwhile lots of enemies have hitscan weapons, evasive moves have actual DR on them and not just a penalty to enemy aiming, and every single cosmetic in the game is made to fit on the one skeleton.

I don't know why this would be anything more than cosmetic, mentioning the power of the frame is a silly tangent.

Please list the things about Titania you feel support your idea. I mean, look at Inaros.

Razorwing obviously makes titania very small. There were stats like evasion and stuff that changes the % weather the enemies hit.so it's not like that can't be adjusted. Cosmetics can easily be scaled up, down, and around for such frames. In case you haven't noticed, most cosmetics are customly ppositioned and scaled on many many frames. All I'm suggesting is to take that to an extreme. Two of the valid issues I see are stuff like being too large for openings and other running speed matching the animation and so on... But I think it's doable.

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The problem isn't hit boxes, it is animation rigging. 

Just think about how your Warframe holds weapons, how the animation sets work. Melee animations especially.

 

It is too much workload, especially given that the reward doesn't do much of anything for the game. 

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Given the fact that every frame has to be compatible with the same animation rig that is impossible as they’d have to make a whole new rig for a taller or shorter frame. They couldn’t just shrink or enlarge the current one because then the proportions would be off.

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34 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Given the fact that every frame has to be compatible with the same animation rig that is impossible as they’d have to make a whole new rig for a taller or shorter frame. They couldn’t just shrink or enlarge the current one because then the proportions would be off.

Not really.  You just need to shrink the rig proportionally to the model and it would fit fine.  From an internal, constrained to the frame perspective, there's zero issue with scaling the models and their animations (though admittedly, there would also need to be a scalar for the animation duration as well to keep a consistent visual speed).

The (much) bigger issue is how the smaller/larger frame interacts with the rest of the world.  For example, a tiny warframe hacking away at a Grineer's shin logically shouldn't cause its torso to explode into gibblets when killed.  Similarly, a large warframe that stomps up to an elevator but can't get the prompt to appear because the distance to center-mass the engine checks to show the prompt is smaller than the frame's waist would have a problem.

Introducing warframes of much different scales introduces a whole new problem-space for DE to deal with, where every time they make a change, they need to also consider how warframes of different sizes interacts with it, and while, for example, having two sizes of warframes wouldn't double the work to build new environments in, but it wouldn't be that far off, and it's frankly not worth it.

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1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

The problem isn't hit boxes, it is animation rigging. 

Just think about how your Warframe holds weapons, how the animation sets work. Melee animations especially.

 

It is too much workload, especially given that the reward doesn't do much of anything for the game. 

This guys knows.

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35 minutes ago, Agayek said:

Not really.  You just need to shrink the rig proportionally to the model and it would fit fine.  From an internal, constrained to the frame perspective, there's zero issue with scaling the models and their animations (though admittedly, there would also need to be a scalar for the animation duration as well to keep a consistent visual speed).

The (much) bigger issue is how the smaller/larger frame interacts with the rest of the world.  For example, a tiny warframe hacking away at a Grineer's shin logically shouldn't cause its torso to explode into gibblets when killed.  Similarly, a large warframe that stomps up to an elevator but can't get the prompt to appear because the distance to center-mass the engine checks to show the prompt is smaller than the frame's waist would have a problem.

Introducing warframes of much different scales introduces a whole new problem-space for DE to deal with, where every time they make a change, they need to also consider how warframes of different sizes interacts with it, and while, for example, having two sizes of warframes wouldn't double the work to build new environments in, but it wouldn't be that far off, and it's frankly not worth it.

For these reasons, I think shorter is easier than taller.

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5 hours ago, Son_of_Anubis said:

When you look at other frames you stop and wonder why isn't there a height difference between them like chroma and Inaros.

Because Warframes are made from Dex Soldiers, which follow a strict standard when being made as the Orokins were perfectionists, this means if someone was lower/higher than their standard, they would be reject. Higher or Smaller soldiers ment having to redesign their equipments to fit various different sizes, this ment cost in a society that was already starting to struggle for resources.

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I think this can work for a operator sized Warframe. DE could revamp the operator rig and maybe apply it to a new warframe with roughly the same mesh size. Anything taller than what we have would just cause issues. 

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Il y a 9 heures, (XB1)Architect Prime a dit :

Razorwing obviously makes titania very small.

That doesn't make her small. That completely replaces her model. If you look at the Wisp buffs you will see that they are floating above Titania, which means that its coordinates are shifted downwards. Archwing has the same settings. And so far, this mechanic has a lot of flaws and bugs. So you can't count on such a small frame all the time, just as a separate frame reduction ability. 

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the game, as mobs have no problem dealing damage to you even at -100% accuracy and when you are small. All because the enemies have endless ammo and a lot of them. Titania has a small size to be able to fly in narrow corridors, no more.

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11 hours ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

I'd just like to say that I would very much welcome different scales of frames.

Well, here's the thing, it kind of doesn't matter.

They can, and do, scale Warframe skeletons up and down, and increase their physical size from one to the other. In the frames, that's actually not all that much, the difference being only around 8-10 inches from the shortest to the tallest.

You can see it most in Kubrows, actually, with the same skeleton being scaled up and down, and then in the Enemies, with Bombards just being a scaled up Lancer with different colours and weapons.

Have you seen what happens when a small Kubrow mauls a Bombard, though? The Bombard shrinks and the Kubrow grows to 'average' size. The enemies also shrink when we use Stealth Finishers on them too, if you don't use pets.

Physical scale in the game is actually easy. What isn't easy is custom animating that so that the frames don't pop up and down from their 0.75 Scale to 1.0 scale for all the different animations.

For example Titania:

39 minutes ago, zhellon said:

That doesn't make her small. That completely replaces her model.

No, it doesn't.

DE confirmed that all they did for Archwing when they created it (and why there were so many bugs with small frames on the original Sharkwing tile sets) was scale the Warframes to 0.25 Scale and give them backpack accessories. The models are not replaced.

Titania's Razorwing is literally just her in a different physical movement mode. If she wasn't in 'Archwing Mode' (which, again, confirmed by DE, uses different physical programming to the base movement and nav-mesh based mode that even Hildryn's floating around uses) then we wouldn't have had any of the problems that we do with her pets, vacuum, and she even would have been able to pick up objects and revive team-members while in Razorwing. Doesn't matter how small she is, animations that do not require another object (such as an enemy, a non-unique melee, or an environmental object) would have played out at her shrunken size, while anything requiring another object would have scaled her back up to 1.0 and played the animation like that instead.

But this:

42 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Titania has a small size to be able to fly in narrow corridors, no more.

Is absolutely true, it's the only reason she's scaled down... well, aside from the additional 'theme' of being a fairy, but that's a by-product of the ability design, I would guess.

The whole tl;dr of this:

The only reason we currently don't have Warframes that are massively different heights is because the only way they would do it is by scaling the skeleton down to a smaller size, and what his would cause is every single time a regular animation plays (anything from specific Melee to hacking a Console) the shorter frame just becomes a normal sized one, popping in and out of that size as-and-when.

And, as we saw with the Sharkwing stuff, that's not always reliable; even with transition gates like Sharkwing has, sometimes that scaling procedure might not work, or work repeatedly, to make a tiny, tiny Warframe running around unable to see past or navigate over basic obstacles like boxes, let alone target enemies correctly. Or just get stuck at the larger size because the game forgets to scale them back down again.

Warframe's engine is just buggy like that ^^

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il y a 21 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

DE confirmed that all they did for Archwing when they created it (and why there were so many bugs with small frames on the original Sharkwing tile sets) was scale the Warframes to 0.25 Scale and give them backpack accessories. The models are not replaced.

Titania's Razorwing is literally just her in a different physical movement mode. If she wasn't in 'Archwing Mode' (which, again, confirmed by DE, uses different physical programming to the base movement and nav-mesh based mode that even Hildryn's floating around uses) then we wouldn't have had any of the problems that we do with her pets, vacuum, and she even would have been able to pick up objects and revive team-members while in Razorwing. Doesn't matter how small she is, animations that do not require another object (such as an enemy, a non-unique melee, or an environmental object) would have played out at her shrunken size, while anything requiring another object would have scaled her back up to 1.0 and played the animation like that instead. ould have played out at her shrunken size, while anything requiring another object would have scaled her back up to 1.0 and played the animation like that instead. 

Actually, Yes. I would prefer to have a normal arched wing with all the features even if it would cost losing its other (big) form. At this point, I don't see the point in a big form. Add the animation of the beginning and the end of the mission, which will be special only for Titania. Make Titania use passive archwing animations and add those animations to the archwing. I don't know, at least replace her melee with an archwing weapon. Yes, I know, there are not enough mods, but it will save problems. The only thing is the bleeding mode. But you can just make a passive where she retains the ability to fly in bleeding mode and it will save a lot of trouble. Well, or even change the bleeding mechanics for archwing because it's not convenient due to high speeds and inertia.

Okay, I'm getting carried away.

il y a 31 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

The only reason we currently don't have Warframes that are massively different heights is because the only way they would do it is by scaling the skeleton down to a smaller size, and what his would cause is every single time a regular animation plays (anything from specific Melee to hacking a Console) the shorter frame just becomes a normal sized one, popping in and out of that size as-and-when.

It'll work, but it'll look ridiculous. This is very similar to when the you finish in the melee of large mobs. This should be worked out not only as mechanics, but also as the style of the frame.

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53 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Actually, Yes. I would prefer to have a normal arched wing with all the features even if it would cost losing its other (big) form. At this point, I don't see the point in a big form.

There actually is. And that's, as I said, because DE didn't make Archwing directly compatible with anything in the main game. You can shoot, cast abilities and so on, but nothing else.

Everything in Warframe is based on those two modes; if you're in the basic Warframe mode, you can interact with everything, you can use melee animations, you can 'press X to' interact, you can pick up things, open doors, revive team members. If you're in Archwing mode, all of those things are literally not possible.

The exact reason that Titania can't do anything in her Razorwing form is because archwing is, at a base level, incompatible with the main game. You have to trigger the mode with gear items in the open world, you have to trigger it with space/sea gates in the only tile sets you can use it on. What works in one doesn't work in the other.

And we know this because it's the exact reason DE gave for all the problems when they integrated the two, when we were getting these ridiculous shrinking frames, when we were getting people permanently stuck in Sharkwing mode outside of the water, it was all explained to us back then.

The point of Titania's big form? Because otherwise she wouldn't be able to play the game without somebody else in the mission to do everything from open a door to pick up a datamass.

And... were you... literally not reading my comment?

59 minutes ago, zhellon said:

This is very similar to when the you finish in the melee of large mobs. This should be worked out not only as mechanics, but also as the style of the frame.

Here: 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The only reason we currently don't have Warframes that are massively different heights is because the only way they would do it is by scaling the skeleton down to a smaller size, and what his would cause is every single time a regular animation plays (anything from specific Melee to hacking a Console) the shorter frame just becomes a normal sized one, popping in and out of that size as-and-when.

And, as we saw with the Sharkwing stuff, that's not always reliable; even with transition gates like Sharkwing has, sometimes that scaling procedure might not work, or work repeatedly, to make a tiny, tiny Warframe running around unable to see past or navigate over basic obstacles like boxes, let alone target enemies correctly. Or just get stuck at the larger size because the game forgets to scale them back down again.

Warframe's engine is just buggy like that ^^

The game engine itself doesn't handle this stuff well enough already.

That's the reason we don't have it, because bug-frame is bug-frame and everything in the game relies on the animation states that they created years ago. Until DE redoes how the engine itself handles physical size differences and stops resizing things just for the animation states... then we're just going to get ridiculous animation differences and be inviting actual bugs into the system again.

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9 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Because Warframes are made from Dex Soldiers, which follow a strict standard when being made as the Orokins were perfectionists, this means if someone was lower/higher than their standard, they would be reject. Higher or Smaller soldiers ment having to redesign their equipments to fit various different sizes, this ment cost in a society that was already starting to struggle for resources.

Oh didn't know there was lore to this. Can you give me a link so I can read up on it?

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11 minutes ago, Son_of_Anubis said:

Oh didn't know there was lore to this. Can you give me a link so I can read up on it?

Bianca's not quite right on this. The Dax Soldiers were used, in fact it's the reason for Excalibur being the first frame (and for Excal Umbra being an Excal, even though he's different from the base) but also gifted and talented individuals 'whether willing or not'.

The Lore is revealed in the voice logs from The Sacrifice quest. Lots of talking from Ballas about how the Warframes are created.

If you haven't played it yet, do, if you have then (I think) you can find the transcripts on the Wiki.

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il y a 51 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

The point of Titania's big form? Because otherwise she wouldn't be able to play the game without somebody else in the mission to do everything from open a door to pick up a datamass.

il y a 51 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

The exact reason that Titania can't do anything in her Razorwing form is because archwing is, at a base level, incompatible with the main game. You have to trigger the mode with gear items in the open world, you have to trigger it with space/sea gates in the only tile sets you can use it on. What works in one doesn't work in the other.

You do realize that most of the problems have been solved with the release of open worlds? These limitations are not the solution. Just a plug. IIn open worlds you can interact with objects, resurrect allies and drag things while on the wings. All you need is to work on the problems of melee, Pets, operator and interaction with some bosses. There's not much left.

il y a une heure, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

That's the reason we don't have it, because bug-frame is bug-frame and everything in the game relies on the animation states that they created years ago. Until DE redoes how the engine itself handles physical size differences and stops resizing things just for the animation states... then we're just going to get ridiculous animation differences and be inviting actual bugs into the system again. 

It seems to me that, by the scanning is no problem, dogs are well able to grow in size and their animations don't break. Most likely, as you said, the problem is with the interaction with the walls and drawers. But then again, dogs behave normally. Very well tested with a full set of mods on an infected dog. That is, of course need elaboration, but it seems to me that the engine itself is quite capable of scaling.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Bianca's not quite right on this. The Dax Soldiers were used, in fact it's the reason for Excalibur being the first frame (and for Excal Umbra being an Excal, even though he's different from the base) but also gifted and talented individuals 'whether willing or not'.

The Lore is revealed in the voice logs from The Sacrifice quest. Lots of talking from Ballas about how the Warframes are created.

If you haven't played it yet, do, if you have then (I think) you can find the transcripts on the Wiki.

I have played it just don't remember hearing about height control when making warframes. Unless that slipped me. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, zhellon said:

You do realize that most of the problems have been solved with the release of open worlds?

Hah, wait, you think they have? Nope. They weren't. They were pushed to one side and two instances of the game. What about the other 95% of the game?

The open world archwing, the 'sky' archwing, are the band-aid, not the solution. They are just as limited in and of themselves.

Again, rather than program a flying mode into the existing game engine, they bolted on a secondary engine to create Archwing, and when integrating them properly still needed to be done, they bypassed it by creating a new space in the game that allowed the physics to work for both modes.

They keep bolting on the functions instead of sitting down and re-engineering the base to allow for all these functions in the main game.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

but it seems to me that the engine itself is quite capable of scaling

Again, it's like you're reading, but not comprehending.

The engine is capable of scaling. Yes.

But the dog having one or two animations that make it grow isn't a problem compared to the literal (and we counted once) 1500+ animations that Warframes perform that could break scaling.

The scale isn't the problem, I've said that from the start. It's everything else that's based on the frames being at approximately 1.0 scale to function that stops DE from doing it. By choice. Intentionally. They don't do it because they don't want the frames to keep popping up and down in scale as they interact with the world.

::Edit:: Even just putting on another frame's Idle animations could do it, like Wisp's, that make the double and spin around... those would do it.

On the other topic of conversation:

12 minutes ago, Son_of_Anubis said:

I have played it just don't remember hearing about height control when making warframes. Unless that slipped me. 

Here's the transcript on the Warframes, it's the third entry:

Spoiler

WARFRAMES
Ballas: Our hubris shone like a black star... for our technology, our war-machines were your kin. How easily you turned them against us. We were forced to older means. Not circuits, nor light... but flesh and disease. Our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies... became gardens!
--- CONTINUE ->
Ballas: We cultured the Infestation, conceiving of a hybrid. Transformed, but only just. The 'Helminth' was created, born to yield these new warriors, worthy of battle against you. The great and terrible Hunhow.
--- CONTINUE ->
Ballas: We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents. They transformed. They became Infested...
--- CONTINUE ->
Ballas: ... but only just. Their skin blossomed into sword-steel. Their organs, interlinked with untold resilience. Yet their minds were free of the Infested madness. Or so we thought.
Ballas: We set them upon the battlefield, bio-drones under our command.
--- CONTINUE ->
Ballas: The Warframes... All of them... failures.
Ballas: Surprised? They turned on us, just as you did. And so we had no choice but to commit them to grave.
Ballas: This is all you know, Hunhow, but there is a hidden half, a secret, that lies within a place forbidden to you and your kind. I speak of the Void.
--- CONTINUE ->

And Excal Umbra himself was a Dax, which is apparently why he became an Excal at all, and it was the way that Ballas did it, the whole act of leaving him with the memory of killing his son and that Ballas was defecting to the Sentient side that twisted him from just another Excal Prime into the Excal Umbra.

There's also the lines from the Prime Trailers, like Mirage Prime, who Ballas claims laughed during the process and twisted the design that Ballas had for her, until she became the harlequin that she is instead of what he intended...

I kind of want to know what that initial design was, because her abilities are light based...

Anyroadup, apparently lots of different individuals were used for the Warframes, but Bianca's not wrong that almost all of them were created for a purpose, which is combat. To be 'super soldiers', and so they take on a heavily idealised form of the humanoid figure no matter what shape or purpose they were designed for. The newly announced big boi frame with the large gut, however? I think that's more function over form, and I'll be interested to see what the actual Prime looks like.

Edited by Birdframe_Prime

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il y a 48 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

The scale isn't the problem, I've said that from the start. It's everything else that's based on the frames being at approximately 1.0 scale to function that stops DE from doing it. By choice. Intentionally. They don't do it because they don't want the frames to keep popping up and down in scale as they interact with the world.

The dogs themselves are generated of different size and shape. Yes, they have few animations (running, jumping through obstacles, finishing techniques), but this is at least something. Warframes don't have a lot of animations either (except for passive racks, which don't require any environment at all). The most difficult animation is probably when you climb the ledge and it is not clear whether it will be a problem at all or not. The rest is parkour, which is quite easy to perform. There are really quite special, as interactions with bosses and objects, but it is possible to consider separately. The problem of finishers is solved by the introduction of additional animation, which will not particularly depend on the target finisher. 

About archwing Titania, I see no problem. Archwing uses a special technique of movement (well, actually part of this system migrated to Titania and works perfectly), Archwing uses a special melee mechanics (actually Titania also works). Those problems that you describe already have a solution in archwing on open worlds (I'm not saying move all OW archwing, just these solutions as they work). There is a group of problems that they will still need to solve for archwing to be able to expand his combat system (pets, operator). And as luck would have it, it would solve Titania's problems.

We cannot look at this system as a whole, and it is difficult to say anything about it. But personally, I see that many mechanics are taken from a common parent. And most likely, all archwing (space archwing, OW/water archwing, Titania archwing) also have a common parent. In the end, Titania flies the same way on normal missions as on OW. Railjack - it will generally be a hodgepodge of their modes. Yes, I know that this will work as badly as on water missions, but I hope that they are basically now processing the entire archwing system, because now it is in an extremely subsidiary state.

 

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I mean, we're getting that fat ogre-like warframe sometime soon and he's getting custom animations to fix clipping issues with his model so I don't think shorter/taller frames are that much of an impossibility.

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22 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Warframes don't have a lot of animations either

We counted, Warframes have over 1500. I literally just said that.

Everything in Warframe is based off the animations, everything. Some of them, it's true, don't rely on what size the character model is to perform them. The rest all do.

Even this:

24 minutes ago, zhellon said:

The problem of finishers is solved by the introduction of additional animation, which will not particularly depend on the target finisher. 

Would need to create 46 individual animations alone. One for every weapon type (not every weapon, just the categories), a Front finisher and a Back finisher for each. And key it differently for each frame you created that was bigger or smaller than the average, and then also bug-check every time you updated either the Warframe, the enemies, or the melee system.

28 minutes ago, zhellon said:

About archwing Titania, I see no problem.

Then you're not understanding how different Archwing is to base Warframe.

29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

We cannot look at this system as a whole, and it is difficult to say anything about it.

I can, and frequently do, take on debates on the system as a whole, with extensive research into how these systems work based on actual game programming and limitations of what DE are observed and have revealed to have done.

I'm not just theorising all of this, it's coming from a base knowledge of how DE have created a game, and what limitations their game engine actually has.

Again, actual scaling and the possibility of making smaller or larger frames is easy. They can do that at any time.

They don't by choice, on purpose, because of what it causes the player character to do and how many bugs it is proven to cause in practice.

I was there for the Sharkwing implementation, when they took base Archwing and applied it to an in-game mission. I was there when they created Titania and played through every single bug with her before they fixed how it worked in game. I was there when they created the new variant for the Open Worlds, and the only reason they were able to do the different functions on the Open Worlds was because they created an entirely new game space where they could load in a hybrid mode.

I know what bugs scaling character models down in game causes, I've seen them, watched how DE patched them. It's the simple fact that every single animation in the game needs to run to that scale, or the character model will simply revert.

There are melee stances that have specific interactions with a weapon that rely on the frame being approximately the right size so it isn't noticeable when they resize, there are in-world interactions with objects that bug out if you're just positioned wrong with a frame that's below or above the 1.0 scale.

It's not the visual scale of the warframe that's the problem. It never has been.

It's DE's base game engine that runs everything it does off key animations that DE are proven to not want to mess with. Even a frame that's supposed to float around, like Wisp, doesn't do that all the time because they would have to redo every single melee animation, every single interaction in the game to allow just for her legs to be in a different position while performing them.

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