Ivara's prowl, is mobility limitation necessary?

[Test-995]

Okay so bullet jumping could be replaced with dashwire and wall jump, but movement speed reduction is just annoying, also i don't think it's that different from other invis abilities, toggle nature of skill is more of a restriction than strength for most of times.

[GnarlsDarkley]

Try this "tactic"

[Marine027]

As GnarlsDarkley suggested, rolling is how you move, same goes for Mesa's Waltzer, on top it saves energy since it not counts as moving directly.

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Try this "tactic"

Actually i do, still little clunky without infiltrate and few bunch of strength though.

And possibly that's the reason why i'm feeling this is unnecessary, this is not that big beside small annoyance.

[Chewarette]

39 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

toggle nature of skill is more of a restriction than strength for most of times.

Toggle is a huge benefit as there is no downtime at all. So yes, I'd rather we keep the movement restrictions, because if they were to disappear, that'd mean Prowl would be changed to a set duration. This would effectively transform Ivara into Female Loki.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Chewarette

[Test-995]

Just now, Chewarette said:

Toggle is a huge benefit as there is no downtime at all. So yes, I'd rather we keep the movement restrictions, because if they were to disappear, that'd mean Prowl would be changed to a set duration.

And there is no energy generation beside RNG oriented orbs and energize either, so it's enough to be a trade off.

[Kainosh]

1 minute ago, Test-995 said:

Actually i do, still little clunky without infiltrate and few bunch of strength though.

And possibly that's the reason why i'm feeling this is unnecessary, this is not that big beside small annoyance.

 

I sorta agree... but instead of simply removing "movement speed penalty" i want Invisibility to be tweaked in general.

What i would do:

While moving, invisible frames become partially visible (affects  full detection radius and alert radius).

Each movement has its own effect on invisibility:

• Full invisibility - Crouched(immobile) , Wall latch, Roll, Finisher.
• Medium invis (2m detection range, 5m alerted state) - Crouched movement, standing, walking, wall dashing, jumping, sliding (because friction and sparks)
• Low invis ( 6m detection range, 10m alerted state) - Bullet jumps, Sprint, Melee attacks, Heavy landings....all that real intense sht.

Environments that provide +2 to invis level (from none to medium, from low to full) :  Bushes, Smokescreen.

This is just example of course...But i think it would improve Invisible (stealth) gameplay lots.

 

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Its a loot ability as well. But if its not slow then you can call it prowl. On the other hand use its augment it improves its speed.

[Mattoropael]

18 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Toggle is a huge benefit as there is no downtime at all. So yes, I'd rather we keep the movement restrictions, because if they were to disappear, that'd mean Prowl would be changed to a set duration. This would effectively transform Ivara into Female Loki.

"No downtime" can just as easily be achieved by making it recastable.

See Octavia.

[YoDoge]

I prefer Prowl as it is. Besides, I don't see why you would use it if you have to cover a long distance unless you have a niche for endurance runs.

[enkilal]

il y a 27 minutes, Kainosh a dit :

 

I sorta agree... but instead of simply removing "movement speed penalty" i want Invisibility to be tweaked in general.

What i would do:

While moving, invisible frames become partially visible (affects  full detection radius and alert radius).

Each movement has its own effect on invisibility:

• Full invisibility - Crouched(immobile) , Wall latch, Roll, Finisher.
• Medium invis (2m detection range, 5m alerted state) - Crouched movement, standing, walking, wall dashing, jumping, sliding (because friction and sparks)
• Low invis ( 6m detection range, 10m alerted state) - Bullet jumps, Sprint, Melee attacks, Heavy landings....all that real intense sht.

Environments that provide +2 to invis level (from none to medium, from low to full) :  Bushes, Smokescreen.

This is just example of course...But i think it would improve Invisible (stealth) gameplay lots.

 

Seems really nice to me. Ivara is a great frame, my favorite. The only thing that annoys me with her is that it's mostly a solo oriented frame because her prowl speed debuff,. In a squad where everyone move very fast, it's difficult to reach mobs before they're dead, and without prowl on high lvl mission, you die in a second. 

[Test-995]

2 minutes ago, YoDoge said:

I prefer Prowl as it is. Besides, I don't see why you would use it if you have to cover a long distance unless you have a niche for endurance runs.

Actually it's more of a problem for short distance, since rolling is too fast for small adjustment, and walking is too slow for that job.

And for the reason why i use it, it's just because my build is S#&$, never tried to use defensive mods.

[YoDoge]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

Actually it's more of a problem for short distance, since rolling is too fast for small adjustment, and walking is too slow for that job.

And for the reason why i use it, it's just because my build is S#&$, never tried to use defensive mods.

Each their own I suppose, I usually don't have that problem. As much as I play Ivara, it has worked out for me.

If changes suggested were to be made, it would mean some other nerf or penalty. How I see it anyway, and the uncertainty of what it would be makes the current look really good. However this is only my opinion, I know slow walking it isn't always easy fun or beneficial since uncloaking as paper is not a good idea.

 

[Test-995]

19 minutes ago, YoDoge said:

Each their own I suppose, I usually don't have that problem. As much as I play Ivara, it has worked out for me.

If changes suggested were to be made, it would mean some other nerf or penalty. How I see it anyway, and the uncertainty of what it would be makes the current look really good. However this is only my opinion, I know slow walking it isn't always easy fun or beneficial since uncloaking as paper is not a good idea.

 

So, i'm thinking it should be buffed without any nerfs, despite ivara herself is more of a top tier frames.

This limitation isn't necessary for balance purpose, buff wouldn't make her prowl OP, especially when you are still unable to dash and bullet jump, and basically unable to shoot noisy guns.

[YoDoge]

Just now, Test-995 said:

So, i'm thinking it should be buffed without any nerfs, despite ivara herself is more of a top tier frames.

This limitation isn't necessary for balance purpose, buff wouldn't make her prowl OP, especially when you are still unable to dash and bullet jump, and basically unable to shoot noisy guns.

That's a good point, but I doubt it will receive any changes. Although I would take the speed buff if this was the case.

[Birdframe_Prime]

To put an opinion in the pot, I'm fairly sure that the movement reduction isn't because of the toggle invisibility. The movement reduction is because it's a looting ability that doesn't rely on killing the enemies to be successful.

In other words, because you can Loot without the Shoot, you can only Butt-Scoot.

[Caelward]

Judging by Zephyr, DE also values mobility as extremely costly for power balancing...

If they saw fit to slow Ivara down, it's probably there to stay.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Well let’s look at what the ability is. It’s an energy drain invisibility. So having full range of movement while also have what is essentially unlimited invisibility is pretty overpowered.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, Caelward said:

Judging by Zephyr, DE also values mobility as extremely costly for power balancing...

Hey, look at the new Wukong too; they upped his speed on Cloud Walker massively, but you can only use it for about four to five seconds now because of it...

[enkilal]

Il y a 7 heures, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 a dit :

Well let’s look at what the ability is. It’s an energy drain invisibility. So having full range of movement while also have what is essentially unlimited invisibility is pretty overpowered.

Yes of course, current prowl without movement restriction would be overpowered. That's why different levels of invisibility relying on movement like described below would be interesting. Or another solution could be to use the same mechanic than firing a noisy weapon while being in prowl. You're visible when you run/bullet jump and become invisible instantly when you stop. Of course, staying in channeling state even when visible. 

[Test-995]

10 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well let’s look at what the ability is. It’s an energy drain invisibility. So having full range of movement while also have what is essentially unlimited invisibility is pretty overpowered.

I'd say other invis are more "unlimited" than ivara's because energizing dash, but that's different matter.

Anyway i'm not asking for full range of movement since they wouldn't balance frames around glorious octavia, just asking for removal of movement speed reduction, this is pretty much overkill with all those movement/gear restriction.

[KynaTiona]

On 2019-06-26 at 8:51 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well let’s look at what the ability is. It’s an energy drain invisibility. So having full range of movement while also have what is essentially unlimited invisibility is pretty overpowered.

Let's compare Ivara's Prowl to Loki's Invisibility to see if it's really that overpowered, shall we? For simplicity's sake, we'll exclude Ash's Smoke Screen on account of Ash not being as purely stealth-centric and his Smoke Screen just being a shorter, more combat-oriented variant of Loki's Invisibility.

 

First, energy consumption. With a maxed Energizing Dash, Loki has enough energy to stay recast Invisibility indefinitely without a single mod improving his abilities. This does require a Void Dash every other recast, though, which is a bit of a bother. To avoid that, Loki can still achieve unlimited Invisibility recasts by running Energy Siphon, Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, and Narrow-Minded. Ivara, meanwhile, has all energy regeneration locked during Prowl, meaning you need to take Streamline and Fleeting Expertise if you want to use any abilities aside from Prowl. This means any energy orb Loki picks up can be freely spent towards abilities other than Invisibility, whereas Ivara has to pray to RNGesus for regular energy orbs just to stay invisible. Additionally, Loki can recover from a run-in with Magnetise or parasitic eximuses just by hiding the mundane way, whereas Ivara will have to fight on in a very vulnerable state. Loki handily wins out on energy consumption.

Second, the invisibility itself. Loki is visible for 3/4 of a second every 18 seconds, sure, but that still gives you at least 14 seconds to do stuff unmolested before you need to duck back into cover. In fact, if you're not facing enemies with hitscan weapons, you can safely recast Invisibility during a slide or air glide even in the middle of a firefight. You can still get killed by crossfire, but that's a weakness of all stealth frames. Ivara is of course invisible permanently provided you don't accidentally bring a non-silenced weapon or move faster than a brisk crawl, but it's not a particularly impressive margin of victory.

Third, how much each frame can do while invisible. Loki has the highest base sprint speed in the game, easily outpacing pretty much everyone that doesn't have additional movement speed abilities. (I believe just Volt, Nezha, and soon to be Gauss?) When modded for speed and ability duration, he can easily cross two or more tiles during a single cast of Invisibility, and there isn't a Spy vault he can't crack with relative ease. Ivara's Prowl, meanwhile, slows her down well below the slowest frame. (Only a little faster than Loki when he's Hobbled, in fact.) It's basically impossible to keep up with a squad this way, meaning she either has to limit herself to solo play or regular break Prowl to keep up. Even if she loots every enemy on the map, she's not getting doubled level rewards, and she probably spent well over twice the time to complete the level anyway. Loki wins out massively.

 

As it stands, Ivara has limited usefulness in solo play as a beginner frame. She'll never compare to Loki for any kind of stealth approach, but she is certainly easy to use, making it easier to observe the details of Warframe's stealth mechanics in a safer context. Unfortunately, because acquiring Ivara requires extensive farming of stealth-oriented missions, you've undoubtedly already learned those mechanics by the time you've started playing her. To be honest, I'm not actually sure what she's good for outside of fishing and animal captures.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, (XB1)GaussPrime said:

so she actually gets some freaking usage

Objection. (On this one point, not on anything else)

On the only released data that we've ever received from DE (yearly, on the anniversary, giving data across all platforms, all countries) Ivara's usage only goes up as the MR of levels rise and eventually out-strips all but Loki out of the 'frames that can go invisible'. 

I put this down to the simple function of utility as a whole, not to the difference in the actual invisibility.

Her actual position is in the top half of our 40 frames available, falling in at a weird 17th place, with both Ash and Octavia down in the 20's somewhere.

Basically what I'm saying is that, according to the facts that DE release yearly, Ivara gets quite a lot of usage. Despite the limitations.

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

TBH I dont really see that much of a hindrance with movement while in prowl. Dont discount how effectively rolling can get you through a level. At times I've even seen it move past allies running. Plus if I'm in a group o dont primarily use it until I leap myself into the thick of a large number of enemies. Personally, I wouldn't want a change. It's fine as is

[Test-995]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Smooth81Criminal said:

TBH I dont really see that much of a hindrance with movement while in prowl. Dont discount how effectively rolling can get you through a level. At times I've even seen it move past allies running. Plus if I'm in a group o dont primarily use it until I leap myself into the thick of a large number of enemies. Personally, I wouldn't want a change. It's fine as is

That's the point, when walking speed reduction doesn't change rolling speed, why keep it?

It makes a little annoyance but no difference in gameplay/frame power, this buff is just a QoL change.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Test-995