Allow melee weapons to be exempt from RMB weapon switching.

[MirageKnight]

This has been covered in other posts in other threads, but I feel this needs mentioning yet again to get DE's attention.

Currently, when a melee weapon is equipped, right-clicking switches from the melee weapon to the last ranged weapon used. More-so, when an Exalted melee ability is active, RMB will do the same thing with Exalted melee weapons, forcing players to turn the ability off and then on again which wastes energy. This is extremely annoying for some of us.

Edit: As per @DeMonkey's suggestion, I'd like to advocate implementing a player-activated toggle (using the Reload key-bind or something else) to allow players to "lock into" whatever melee weapon they have equipped (Exulted or otherwise), where RMB would perform a manual block. Deactivating the toggle would revert RMB to switching from melee to the last ranged weapon used by the player.

In addition to allowing players the option of locking focus onto Exalted melee weapons, this would also benefit regular melee weapons and address criticisms made by other players with regard to the questionable removal of manual blocking for ALL melee weapons in favor of the new "autoblock" system.

Thanks for reading.

Edited June 29, 2019 by MirageKnight

[LSG501]

I thought exalted melee switched like a normal melee but just kept the drain ticking over in the background....

I'll be honest I don't play exalted melee too often but I actually like the change when I do use it.... I found the old system of being 'stuck in exalted' quite annoying in all honesty.

[MirageKnight]

5 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I found the old system of being 'stuck in exalted' quite annoying in all honesty.

That's a fair opinion, but those of us that use those abilities don't see it as being "stuck" but rather being dedicated or focused on a particular combat type. When it's not useful or helpful, we can simply turn it off and we're back to using ranged weapons.

Currently an accidental RMB click arguably ruins the flow.

I really miss manual blocking, but that's another topic entirely.

[LSG501]

43 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

That's a fair opinion, but those of us that use those abilities don't see it as being "stuck" but rather being dedicated or focused on a particular combat type. When it's not useful or helpful, we can simply turn it off and we're back to using ranged weapons.

Currently an accidental RMB click arguably ruins the flow.

I really miss manual blocking, but that's another topic entirely.

To be fair the right mouse clicking swapping from melee can be a tad annoying with non exalted weapons too, especially when aim gliding so I'd maybe argue that the right mouse button swapping when in melee is the issue not the actual ability to switch weapons quickly even while in exalted. 

It also impacts blocking when gliding etc too so I suppose you could also argue the entire issue is basically relating to the removal of manual blocking....

I will say when it got changed I said I would have preferred a change that was basically the faster switching and targeted slam of melee 2.9999 but instead of the auto weapon change they kept the weapon switching key bound (I had a set key for switching to melee etc like many others), it would given us the faster flow, would keep manual blocking AND keep the quick melee that some people enjoyed too...  doubt anything will change now we're basically stuck with a buggy 2.9999 until 3.0 rolls around eventually.

[MirageKnight]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

To be fair the right mouse clicking swapping from melee can be a tad annoying with non exalted weapons too, especially when aim gliding so I'd maybe argue that the right mouse button swapping when in melee is the issue not the actual ability to switch weapons quickly even while in exalted. 

Agreed.

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

This has been covered in other posts in other threads, but I feel this needs mentioning yet again to get attention.

Currently, when an Exulted melee ability is active, right-clicking switches from the exulted melee weapon to the last ranged weapon used, forcing players to turn the ability off and then on again which wastes energy and is extremely annoying for some of us.

Exulted melee weapons should be completely exempt from weapon switching and said weapons should only be turned off either when the ability is deactivated by the player or the player runs out of energy to keep it active. Basically, the melee ability should (and used to) lock the player into using its associated melee weapon exclusively.

Thanks for reading.

I haven't tried switching with exalted melee weapons. But I have switched with ivara's artimus bow and when I'm ready to use it again i just switch back by aiming. Does it not work similarly with exalted melee? Like after you aim and go to your last ranged weapon, can you not press the melee attack button to switch back?

[birdobash]

While weapon switching between melee and guns in general does need some serious polishing at current time, I don't think it is bad in the slightest, at most it is slightly annoying, and if I'm reading the OP correctly, it looks like you think that switching between exalted weapons and guns triggers the activation cost of the exalted, but that's untrue, it just makes it drain in the background.

Being able to switch to guns on the fly while using an exalted weapon opens up a multitude of avenues that exalted weapon frames didn't have before the change, such as condition overload priming with guns for your exalted melee, or making exalted weapon frames viable for arbitrations due to drone immunity to those exalteds. Even other small things such as not being able to hit flying enemies like ospreys or orokin drones as a valkyr on hysteria are fixed because of this new mechanic, and one of my favourites, nullifier bubbles can be dealt with at range with a gun, then you can immediately go straight back to whacking things with your wukongs thicc stick. Although this change definitely helped valkyr the most since her exalted melee has such short range.

All DE needs to do is tweak a few things to make the system more reliable, such as either disabling auto block while inside a melee combo, or make blocking not interrupt melee combos in the first place and block at the same time as you attack, fix auto blocking in the air causing you to experience aim glide gravity, and make aim gliding with a melee weapon not pull out your gun unless you also left click (this last one doesn't change mechanics much but it makes it smoother and prevents the unwanted zoom from gun aimglide).

Overall I don't think exalted melees should be exempt from instant weapon swapping, it adds too many benefits for it to be removed because of a few downsides. Rather, those janky downsides should be fixed or changed so we can have the best of both worlds, a smooth melee experience coupled with the power and flexibility of weapon swapping

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

The main issue I have for the automatic switching is with Valkyr - aim or fire switches back to ranged weapon and cancels Hysteria's invulnerability whilst continues to drain energy. This is more than a slight annoyance - it defeats the object of the invulnerable beserker. I want to be able to cancel Hysteria when I want to, not when I want to aim glide. Whilst it is possible to work around this (on XBox that, for me, means keeping my fingers away from the triggers in case I inadvertently aim or fire) it's a diminished ability.   

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

There is literally no time I have ever felt like "gee, using this ability makes me want to be trapped inside the ability so that I have to uncast it and recast it, wasting tons of energy".....

I get that it's new and takes getting use to but the old system was infinitely worse.

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 2 heures, (XB1)Cotton Tail a dit :

The main issue I have for the automatic switching is with Valkyr - aim or fire switches back to ranged weapon and cancels Hysteria's invulnerability whilst continues to drain energy. This is more than a slight annoyance - it defeats the object of the invulnerable beserker. I want to be able to cancel Hysteria when I want to, not when I want to aim glide. Whilst it is possible to work around this (on XBox that, for me, means keeping my fingers away from the triggers in case I inadvertently aim or fire) it's a diminished ability.   

Actually that specific perk is a huge indirect buff to Valkyr. You just need to play around with it and master its application. 

It works twofold. The first perk is you can rmb into non invulnerable state to regen energy through rage, and you can do that in the middle of an enemy pack without suffering any backlash damage. The second is you can instantly "recast" instead of having to wait through the animation, without having to pay the activation cost again. 

It made (imo) valkyr far better to play. Not even counting the ability to CO prime with a corrosive blast shotgun and go directly into ground pound for easy 40-50mln damage. 

 

Now tho, a slider to select whether you want to switch on aim or not would please both sides. That'd be the optimal solution. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Autongnosis

[DeMonkey]

11 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Now tho, a slider to select whether you want to switch on aim or not would please both sides. That'd be the optimal solution. 

Unless certain players find situational uses for each option that is, perhaps most of the time they want it one way, but in certain situations will want it the other way.

Situations where you can't really be accessing menus and switching it just for that immediate encounter.

As an example, I really dislike accidentally pulling my gun out, screwing with my camera and the nerf to blocking that came with Melee 2.0, however I do like being able to pull my gun out on the limited occasions where I feel I need it, namely against Nullifiers and Arbitration drones (drones ofc outright requiring the usage of a non-exalted weapon).

I'd love if the switching were kept, but the method were changed to not be the exact same sodding button as is used for various combos and old blocking.

[Autongnosis]

il y a 5 minutes, DeMonkey a dit :

Unless certain players find situational uses for each option that is, perhaps most of the time they want it one way, but in certain situations will want it the other way.

Situations where you can't really be accessing menus and switching it just for that immediate encounter.

As an example, I really dislike accidentally pulling my gun out, screwing with my camera and the nerf to blocking that came with Melee 2.0, however I do like being able to pull my gun out on the limited occasions where I feel I need it, namely against Nullifiers and Arbitration drones (drones ofc outright requiring the usage of a non-exalted weapon).

I'd love if the switching were kept, but the method were changed to not be the exact same sodding button as is used for various combos and old blocking.

Well in the case of an rmb switch toggle you'd still keep the option to instant switch on lmb which isn't used for anything else. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Autongnosis

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Autongnosis said:

Well in the case of an rmb switch toggle you'd still keep the option to switch on lmb which isn't used for anything else. 

Fair few people have melee attack bound to LMB. 

[MirageKnight]

7 hours ago, birdobash said:

it just makes it drain in the background.

Correct - but part of the point is that it's a needless drain.

7 hours ago, birdobash said:

Overall I don't think exalted melees should be exempt from instant weapon swapping, it adds too many benefits

Such as?

When I want to wail on enemies with Primal Fury for instance, using guns is really the last thing on my mind. If I decide I need to use a gun, I just click 4 again and there's my gun - assuming it was the last weapon I used before pressing 4. Easy.

4 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

Now tho, a slider to select whether you want to switch on aim or not would please both sides. That'd be the optimal solution. 

That sounds fair.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

I get that it's new and takes getting use to but the old system was infinitely worse.

Now seriously, how was right-clicking to manually block with melee weapons worse?

There's an old saying: "If it's not broken, don't fix it". If you ask me and others, DE went and "fixed" a system that worked pretty decently for years...and for what gain? To make the game even easier? At present, Auto-block is arguably infuriating as it takes control away from the player and interrupts attacks at times. 

4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Fair few people have melee attack bound to LMB.

Guilty. It's super convenient for me.

 

Edit: Thanks for keeping the discussion constructive and respectful, everyone.

Edited June 26, 2019 by MirageKnight

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 4 heures, DeMonkey a dit :

Fair few people have melee attack bound to LMB. 

Too bad for them 😛

In all seriousness i guess you could put a hotkey to swap between rmb switch and rmb no switch on the fly? Tho that would be a nightmare for controller users. 

Also, i was almost moved at that "fair few" T.T

Edited June 26, 2019 by Autongnosis

[birdobash]

29 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Correct - but part of the point is that it's a needless drain.

Such as?

When I want to wail on enemies with Primal Fury for instance, using guns is really the last thing on my mind. If I decide I need to use a gun, I just click 4 again and there's my gun - assuming it was the last weapon I used before pressing 4. Easy.

I don't find it a needless drain, the point to the drain still being there is that you're insta switching to your guns and then insta switch back to your exalted weapon, without having to deactivate and reactivate your exalted weapon, and in most cases the cost to deactivate and reactivate will actually be equal or higher than the measly cost it drained when you pulled out your gun for 2 seconds. The only exception to this is Wukongs staff since they made the activation cost super low and the drain relatively high, and this would be a situation where deactivating and reactivating would potentially be cheaper, but only if you were using your guns for more than a few seconds.

Theres tons of benefits, I even listed a few that came to mind in my post. Being able to pop nullifiers from range is a huge buff to everybody with an exalted melee besides excalibur since he can already do that, being able to do condition overload priming for even more damage, making exalted melee frames viable for arbitrations due to the existence of arbitration drones. Specifically with Valkyr the new system buffed her a lot, her exalted melee doesn't have a lot of range meaning she had trouble hitting air units, nullifiers, and flying nullifiers, but with the new system she can instantly take out a gun to shoot down the annoying pests she can't take down inside hysteria. Another buff to Valkyr from this is the ability to utilize rage while inside hysteria, being able to deactivate your invincibility at any time means you can utilize rage in an extremely effective way, benefits include never losing your combo counter if combined with naramon (especially important with a gladiator build), infinite energy inside hysteria, being able to heal back health inside hysteria for rage again, and again, being able to shoot out nullifiers without accidently breaking hysteria.

[MirageKnight]

28 minutes ago, birdobash said:

I don't find it a needless drain

I and others do, but that's the least of my concerns.

28 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Being able to pop nullifiers from range

Smart players would do this with guns anyway...and definitely before switching to an Exalted melee. 

[birdobash]

17 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Smart players would do this with guns anyway...and definitely before switching to an Exalted melee. 

You've completely ignoring the fact that nullifiers don't just STOP spawning when you pull out an exalted weapon, no, they don't give an F whether you've activated it or not, and throughout a mission there will 100% be times where you have your exalted melee out and a few nullifier turns a corner. You can't just "shoot it beforehand" if they don't exist before you've even pulled out your exalted, and again, theres a huge advantage to the new system where combo counter doesn't disappear if you insta switch to a gun, where if you were to deactivate and reactivate an exalted melee just to take out a gun, you would lose your combo counter regardless of how little time you deactivate it for.

[Autongnosis]

il y a une heure, MirageKnight a dit :

I and others do, but that's the least of my concerns.

Smart players would do this with guns anyway...and definitely before switching to an Exalted melee. 

Tbh I'd hate to lose that specific capability of instant switch for exalted melees. There has to be a way to work with everyone so people of your opinion can be happy and so can people of mine. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I’m going to have to say no on behalf of my friends who like using multi elemental weapons with their condition overload equipped exalted melee.

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, birdobash said:

You've completely ignoring the fact that nullifiers don't just STOP spawning when you pull out an exalted weapon, no, they don't give an F whether you've activated it or not, and throughout a mission there will 100% be times where you have your exalted melee out and a few nullifier turns a corner. You can't just "shoot it beforehand" if they don't exist before you've even pulled out your exalted, and again, theres a huge advantage to the new system where combo counter doesn't disappear if you insta switch to a gun, where if you were to deactivate and reactivate an exalted melee just to take out a gun, you would lose your combo counter regardless of how little time you deactivate it for.

No I'm not. I think the real Elephant in that room...would be the introduction and proliferation of Nullifiers, not another ability to switch weapon quickly.

3 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

There has to be a way to work with everyone so people of your opinion can be happy and so can people of mine. 

Agreed. I'd suggest a toggle to let you opt out of RMB weapon switching...and return manual blocking to RMB while we're at it.

RMB allows ADS and scopes for guns, giving them added usefulness...RMB for melee only takes you back to guns. Blocking? Oh don't worry about that, the game will take care of that for you...when it wants to.

Ranged weapon master race > dirty melee peasants.

[DeMonkey]

11 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

I'd suggest a toggle to let you opt out of RMB weapon switching...and return manual blocking to RMB while we're at it.

"Reload" or "contextual action" key perhaps?

[Autongnosis]

il y a 10 minutes, DeMonkey a dit :

"Reload" or "contextual action" key perhaps?

That could work tbh, although I'd personally reserve context action for finishers and ground pounds. Maybe reload would be best. 

[MirageKnight]

28 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

"Reload" or "contextual action" key perhaps?

Maybe, although having RMB being able to block - when it was a thing - was very convenient.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, MirageKnight said:

Maybe, although having RMB being able to block - when it was a thing - was very convenient.

Oh I know, fully support that.

I mean reload or contextual action for the toggle. Activating it means that you're locked to that melee weapon, RMB performs a pre-nerf block. Deactivating it means RMB goes back to pulling out your gun.