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[DE]Bear

Third-Party Software and You - A PSA

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Greetings, Tenno.

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist cheating, there are some cases where software falls in gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and / or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

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How about peripheral software such as Logitech Gaming Software?

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Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

I call it shamefull because its abusive and used in a way that was not intended to. If you follow the DevStreams you would know that the Devs regret having added Maiming Strike into the game because it made a playstyle they dont like.

And it's up to them to fix that. There's nothing shameful in seeking efficiency, and if one can get something done in two moves, why do twenty?

They regret adding it, then let them fix the "problem", but certainly not go around asking for banning people that make slide macros for ease of use (leaving aside automatic slides, which of course is automation).

Just a reminder they could revert that Maiming + Blood Rush interaction and be done with it, and we'd kinda have another useless mod, it's all in their hands.

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Posted (edited)
vor 4 Minuten schrieb Asphyxxia:

How about peripheral software such as Logitech Gaming Software?

i dont think thats an issue. ive used logitech keyboard/mouse software for years and never had trouble. there are options to set macros with this software and i cant tell u anything about that since i never touch stuff like that for games but i dont think such software will be an issue since its basically for a certain manufacturers hardware and also for configuring it properly, like extra buttons and other features outside of that. personally i treat it like drivers and i dont think anyone will try to punish u for using drivers to properly use ur hardware.

Edited by Xydeth

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"Third party Software is okay... but we won't tell you which one is and the one that is okay, might be put on the autoban bot tomorow"

Yeah, not helpful in the slightest.

What about making a list of all the whitelisted software/macros?

Am I allowed to have a macro that constantly casts sleep/presses 2 over and over?

I'm using this to put everything to sleep with Equinox quickly, I could do this myself, but it gets uncomfortable after a few minutes.

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Does this mean i could run multiple instances of Warframe on one PC without getting banned, since it isnt a 3rd party software?

 

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3 minutes ago, Pandigueiro said:

And it's up to them to fix that. There's nothing shameful in seeking efficiency, and if one can get something done in two moves, why do twenty?

They regret adding it, then let them fix the "problem", but certainly not go around asking for banning people that make slide macros for ease of use (leaving aside automatic slides, which of course is automation).

Just a reminder they could revert that Maiming + Blood Rush interaction and be done with it, and we'd kinda have another useless mod, it's all in their hands.

Firstly i didnt ask for banning people that use them, i said banning the use of the programs.

Second, it will be adressed in Part 2 of Melee 3.0 as stated by [DE]Steve in the Workshop stream he made with [DE]Rebecca abit more than a month ago.

And Third, removing the interaction of Maiming Strike with Blood Rush wont make it a useless mod because you still have Status focused Melee weapons with little to no critical chance that can benefit from it.

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44 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I disagree. As per the Autohotkey announcement made years ago by [DE]Adam:

Source Link

This is a grey area and banning everyone might help your Maiming Strike issue, but it may affect many players who use Macros for other things. It would be nice if DE made a new announcement about Macros that is up to date with how the game is these days.

While I can agree on certain macros helping people with disabilities there are some that straight up exploit it. Like people running full RoF macros for semi-auto weapons and so on, achieving a RoF that simply isnt possible with human interaction, disabilities or not involved.

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Posted (edited)

only 2 macros i ever created and used is 1: slide crit melee but i didn't use it for very long time since i changed ctrl key to left alt key and now its more easy for me to w+e+alt to slide crit very quick 

2: auto fire for burst weapons and this one i only use it for Sicarus prime and sybaris prime and to avoid false positives i increased (ms) between shoots so its not fully auto fire but still faster than burst ..why ? try to go to mot or ani to farm vulted relics for 40 min or 60 minutes equipped with sicarus and sybaris ..repetitive left-clicking for long time made me feel pain and tingle and some times after long play session i cant hold some small objects for a period of time 

thats why i always prefer auto fire weapons but i have a good riven for sicarus that can help me play MOT solo for long time to farm relics.. am aware of the risk but i hope auto ban will have mercy on me 

Edited by -Bv-Psykiik
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

You should treat this post as one that supersedes previous statements made on the matter. This statement goes for all forms of third-party software, including macro programs. Again, the reason we do not issue blanket bans is because we do recognize the use these programs have for some members of the community. Sadly those same programs can be used for AFK farming and the like, so context is important here and is dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Hi,

In the case of AutoHotKey, I used to use it only for things that require constant button pressing, I still do that, but for 1-2 years now I have barely used it, not for fear of getting banned, because I also had [DE]Adam's statement and a few others in mind when using, so I knew that as long as it was used to help me instead of playing it for me, it wouldn't have any problem.

I understand your stance that if a cheater(s) use it for an exploit, you might decide to ban people who use it for non-exploitative reasons. The problem is that during the Plague Star event, I must have created 6-8 Zaws, I even have 4 more BPs, 2 for Kripath and 2 for Keewar, and I put from 6 to 7 Formas into each one. Even with a Double Affiinity Booster and sometimes the Charm Double Affinity effect, after 3 days I started getting wrist and fingers pains from pressing the Melee button - which I use a DualShock 4 controller and have Melee assigned to the "R1" button.

So I decided to use a AutoHotKey macro for Auto-Meleeing in order to not strain my wrist or hurt my finger even further, after an hour or two I even closed the script and went back to manually meleeing. However, this shows a problem that many people in the community face and have asked in many threads, both on the official forums and on Reddit, which is to have a Rapid Fire/Repeat option for people who can't keep constantly pressing the same controller button, keyboard key or mouse button for a myriad of reasons, specially health.

I have had this problem before with "Spin-to-Win", if I keep farming for hours, which Warframe absolutely encourages in spite of when in the Europe server, saying for you to take a break every hour - which you're legally obliged to do so, it starts hurting my wrist. Which is the main reason I started using a controller many years ago, since I already deal with mouse and keyboard for most of the day.

So my question is: Can you please ask the developers if they can implement any sort of options for people who can't keep constantly pressing the same button/key and give us an answer on it?

Edited by Sdarts
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Posted (edited)

How about implementing in Warframe the ability to configure macros and such?

Seems to me that something like that would drastically limit the scenarios where someone would have/want to use an external application, while at the same time allowing DE to define and control what is and is not allowed.

Example: If you are allowing spin2win macros from external software, why not just have that option on the game itself that users can configure? 

 

Edited by Vit0Corleone
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1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Firstly i didnt ask for banning people that use them, i said banning the use of the programs.

Second, it will be adressed in Part 2 of Melee 3.0 as stated by [DE]Steve in the Workshop stream he made with [DE]Rebecca abit more than a month ago.

And Third, removing the interaction of Maiming Strike with Blood Rush wont make it a useless mod because you still have Status focused Melee weapons with little to no critical chance that can benefit from it.

It will make it a useless mod. It's either broken powerful and "efficient" beyond absurdity, or useless. There's no middle ground.

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1 hour ago, 16Bitman said:

[...]

Am I allowed to have a macro that constantly casts sleep/presses 2 over and over?

I'm using this to put everything to sleep with Equinox quickly, I could do this myself, but it gets uncomfortable after a few minutes.

[DE] Steve said more then once that they don't like stuff that automates gameplay. A macro that does what you're supposed to be doing with your fingers most likely falls into that category. So if you are capable of playing the game without using macros you should probably do that.

I specifically avoid using certain warframes/powers/weapons because they are too spammy and will cause my fingers to hurt after some time. Would a macro help me with that kind of situation? Absolutely. But picking different warframes/powers/weapons or simply taking breaks also helps and it's far less risky. So I do that instead.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I call it shamefull because its abusive and used in a way that was not intended to. If you follow the DevStreams you would know that the Devs regret having added Maiming Strike into the game because it made a playstyle they dont like.

just cause its a play style they dont like doesnt mean the players who use it dont like it for all you know they love it and will be up in uproar if they remove it the devs knew adding maiming strike was a double edged sword they know removing it is the same they dont like it but people do and removing it might fix anything that is why the devs are on the fence about removing it. people will still be doing spin2win but it wont be as strong or it could make it stronger by allowing for more diverse builds.

Edited by (PS4)meow121325
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I would like to see in the game settings a function that changes all types of weapons except rechargeable weapons to automatic mode, this will greatly reduce the load on the fingers

p.s, I came to the conclusion that the shots on the mouse wheel are worth it

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3 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

I take no issue with this; it is a sensible policy.

This seems like the time to bring up one of (in my observation) the most common reasons people use macro software in Warframe - accessibility. Most specifically, I want to renew the call to automate all the trigger mechanisms. Mashing E or clicking LMB as fast as possible is both unhealthy for players and a source of performative disadvantage and frustration for those with any number of impairments. Warframe gameplay is about shrewd positioning and clever use of a well-planned loadout of equipment and abilities, not about clicks-per-minute.

I'm not asking for a vast rebalancing, or to hinder players who really do want to fire their Akbolto manually, just that the game be configurable to recognize that a held trigger (be it a button on a mouse, a keyboard, or a gamepad) is a player's desire to continue attacking. With the game so updated, the need/desire for macro software amongst the playerbase will dramatically decrease - and along with it, the uncertainty and support issues.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)meow121325 said:

just cause its a play style they dont like doesnt mean the players who use it dont like it for all you know they love it and will be up in uproar if they remove it the devs knew adding maiming strike was a double edged sword they know removing it is the same they dont like it but people do and removing it might fix anything that is why the devs are on the fence about removing it. people will still be doing spin2win but it wont be as strong or it could make it stronger by allowing for more diverse builds.

If this thread serves as a microcosm of the communities reaction to that eventual change; Dont worry about it, because more people on this thread alone are in favor of the removal of Spin2Win Macros and otherwise than not.

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12 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

 Sadly those same programs can be used for AFK farming and the like, so context is important here and is dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

I see enough people AFK farming without using macros, I cant really see that it serves anyone to police them. I mean I get the principle of the idea, but the negitive effect of such software doesnt seem to outway the positive (unless its difficult to detect a difference between macro procrams and worse programs, in which case do what you gotta do).

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I actually used autohotkey to trigger an "F" keypress for melee, it was usefull for long runs with Excalibur.

But since that's the stance i guess i'll break my finger instead, i really can't risk a ban, not when i'm the warlord of a clan that i need to manage.

Thanks for the headsup btw, i personally don't mind that much, it's not a few keypresses that will change anything.

I don't do spin to win (don't need it), so i don't suffer from it, i do use Fraps to take screenshots (especially of afk behavior) so i'm hoping fraps is an ok program to use.

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14 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

How about implementing in Warframe the ability to configure macros and such?

Seems to me that something like that would drastically limit the scenarios where someone would have/want to use an external application, while at the same time allowing DE to define and control what is and is not allowed.

Example: If you are allowing spin2win macros from external software, why not just have that option on the game itself that users can configure? 

Why not man.

Clicking manually for Semi Auto like the Arca Scisco is why I stopped using it in the first place.

Hurts too much on longer games.

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I do not like that the game can ban you for carelessness. I pref that directly the game will not let you execute it, or that it closes if you execute a program of this type, in this way to avoid carelessness.

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17 hours ago, 16Bitman said:

"Third party Software is okay... but we won't tell you which one is and the one that is okay, might be put on the autoban bot tomorow"

Yeah, not helpful in the slightest.

A list can never be final, so in such matters they want to be able to always act at their discretion. According to the EULA they could ban you for the use of video drivers if they suddenly had the urge.  

55 minutes ago, Phernok said:

I do not like that the game can ban you for carelessness. I pref that directly the game will not let you execute it, or that it closes if you execute a program of this type, in this way to avoid carelessness.

1. Instead of banning for the use of software, bans should be issued for prohibited actions proper.  

2. In the event that any software is "blacklisted" - upon automatic detection the launcher or the game should terminate with a warning because a user can have CE or AHK or any other such software running in the background without ever intending to use it in respect of Warframe. 

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I think you need to be careful with banning people and making 'blanket statements' for 'macro programs' because not everyone uses them for the full on 'automated spin2win' mechanics....

Just as an example: Now I don't use macros but I have just got a scoliac riven which happens to have it's own 'maiming strike' in it which obviously stacks with the mod.  This essentially means for maximum performance the build needs to be built around spin attacks and my god crabbing my fingers around just for that action got uncomfortable after a few mins of just normally using it, not even trying to do spin2win. 

Now in a world where I actually liked whips (I don't) the best solution to that discomfort from doing spin attacks is to grab a macro program and set the melee key to include all key functions of the spin attack in one button rather than needing to stretch my fingers all over the keyboard. 

It's still a manually triggered action but by the 'blanket statements' about acceptability of macro's is making it seem like doing something for comfort rather than cheating is actually not allowed. 

 

Ideally a 'final' statement on what is acceptable use of a macro is needed because some people will be using them due to disability or discomfort rather than trying to cheat, afk etc

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Posted (edited)

What about pre-launch scanning and warning output if it detects something?
Because I was banned for the Cheat Engine, for I hurriedly ran into the warf and forgot to close it. The funny thing is that the warf was not even the target for the debugger ...

Edited by Ksenon_Dash
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