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[DE]Bear

Third-Party Software and You - A PSA

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Greetings, Tenno.

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist cheating, there are some cases where software falls in gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and / or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

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4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Implying spin2win requires any skill at all and that it's only people who can't use it that don't like it...

Without macro I and few others with good keyboard skills can still slide attack easy, but it's not easy for most players to use their hands this way. It requires physical skills and the right loadout needed to make it effective and efficient. If many other abilities and weapons can kill with similar efficiency, no reason to nerf  this or that just because one couldn't do it or without the right builds. 

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3 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

but it's not easy for most players to use their hands this way

It's easy for most players to spin their weapon around, believe me.

I'm simply pointing out to you that your belief that people don't like it because they can't do it is... inaccurate. If you wish to take this further I would suggest pming me, or finding a thread on Spin2Win as this thread isn't the place.

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I would rather to protect my hands with a macro then destroy them.

Imagine doing a mission that's 90 mins long with a weapon like Akbolto YOUR FINGER WILL FALL OFF and not to mention the player base that use AATRAX to use maim and bunch of stuff come in to play.

Yes i understand that manipulation of files is bad, hacking, cheating, boting, but seriously tho a harmless macro to shoot with a semi weapon or to use CTRL + E easier would be a breath of fresh air.

If using a macro gets you banned i rather use it  to save myself from  carpel tunnel.

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At best, this post is vague, useless, unclear, unhelpful, uninformative and useless. Yeah, I said useless twice, oh I did say useless thrice, oh now I said useless four times...i'll stop now. Sorry it's just my macro acting up. Useless

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Posted (edited)

I know i am a edge case but i have Osteo Genesis Imperfecta(it means that i have really weak bones) so clicking too much can actually cause stress fractures so i use macros for slide and melee (hold macros not automatic ones) and the scroll wheel as the alt for firing guns, I love the game but the play style required to yield enough damage without aoe frames is quite stressful on fingers. Edit: Clarifying what macros i use.

Edited by Gundergun

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Macros are a built in function of my keyboard and mouse and Digital Extremes has absolutely no right whatsoever to tell me I am not allowed to use them.

If you want to tell PC players that we cannot use the built in functions of the hardware we bought then you need to take the game off of PC right now since clearly you want to just make games for console players who have no choices in what they use.

 

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2 minutes ago, Alric said:

Macros are a built in function of my keyboard and mouse and Digital Extremes has absolutely no right whatsoever to tell me I am not allowed to use them.

If you want to tell PC players that we cannot use the built in functions of the hardware we bought then you need to take the game off of PC right now since clearly you want to just make games for console players who have no choices in what they use.

 

Someone needs to take a deep breath. With any game there needs to be a level of fairness. The only difference should be skill. They never said you can't macro just that you can't automate the whole gameplay. They have people with disabilities in mind, or issues with fatigue of button combos (chaining bullet jumps are hard for some) Otherwise you would be making you a bot. So if you feel so entitled to not play a game because you can make it play its self, you should just get the hell out of here. Let the people who want to play the game not deal with afker / bots because your too busy, lazy and / or under-skilled to play the game properly.

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Classic DE response.

As expected. Very unprofessional, useless, ambivalent, and 5 years too late. You would think after 5 years, maybe they came up with a decent answer but of course not. They are busy with railjack. Dont have time for this.

Anyway, I request you to delete this because this doesn't serve anyone and is hilariously asinine in its vagueness.

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On 2019-06-26 at 9:20 PM, [DE]Bear said:

The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

If We, players are in need to prove that we are innocent as opposed to WHOLE WORLDS LAW that needs to prove player guilty something is, to say mildly TERRIBLY WRONG!

I personally hope that this was written at 5 am on hangover by a janitor and than pasted by Warframe oficial and will be corrected, otherwise this game will end very quickly its life on the market.

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Im sorry dont want to sound rude but is this supposed to clarify anything?

Heres 3 vials, one might be poison but i dont tell you which one but you may consider that maybe none of them is actually posion. Anyway dont drink any of them but only if you feel like.

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It's totally understandable that DE cannot make an explicit list or something like that. I love how you don't just treat all the third-party software equally :3

To tell the truth, I've written a software which works in conjunction with Warframe [oh, it doesn't access the game's memory or files, and it doesn't play the game instead of you, either, of course!] and been using it for 7 months myself. Since I made it public, I've been asked several times if using my program can lead to ban of the Warframe account. I've always answered, "I don't think so, but use at your own risk." From now I will just link this forum post instead.

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So get carpal tunnel or get banned, nice. 😕

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On 2019-06-26 at 3:29 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

By me if its not a Recording Program, Game Overlay like NVidia`s / Discords or plugin like Razer`s Chroma for the game interacting with the mouse/keyboard colors, it should be banned, including Macros as people still exploit them for shameful Spin2Win mechanics.

Ban macros yes. But you forget about ReShade and SweetFX, harmless programs which SHOULD be allowed.

On 2019-06-26 at 3:31 PM, Xydeth said:

personally i would even punish macroing since its enhancing player "ability" beyond whats really achievable by normal means but i guess thats my opinion only.

I agree. Anyone who disagree's just wants to defend their advantage. Their most common argument is "well you use it too, everyone should use it".....n-..no...thats just.....no.....how much brain damage do you (not you) have?

On 2019-06-26 at 3:20 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Greetings, Tenno.

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist cheating, there are some cases where software falls in gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and / or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

Sorry for being blunt but this post/reply is utter BS. Here's a solution to make everyone happy: just whitelist approved programs like sweetfx and reshade. Boom. problem solved.

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9 hours ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Ban macros yes.

I rather not get carpal or rsi from playing this game thank you.

My nerve damage is bad enough, dont want it to be worse.

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9 hours ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Sorry for being blunt but this post/reply is utter BS. Here's a solution to make everyone happy: just whitelist approved programs like sweetfx and reshade. Boom. problem solved.

While a whitelisting of programs that visually make the game better makes sense but you are extremely closed minded if you think this post is "utter BS". Some people need macros to keep up with other players because they don't have the endurance physically to keep pressing the key combos to perform tasks. Maybe they should take the color blind assist options out because the contrast difference might give them an advantage.

9 hours ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Anyone who disagree's just wants to defend their advantage.

I don't use macros and I disagree so what advantage do I have? I disagree because I know people with health issues that need aids to allow them to do task you don't normally thing about. You comment holds as much weight as saying people who can walked should not get handicap parking close to a building. Some people literally can't walk far distances before needing to sit down again or they might faint. It's called a disability. Anyone who abuses something for personal gain should be held accountable for it. Which is why there is laws protecting handicap parking. It only make sense to allow assisting macros. The problem is anything that can handle macros can be abused beyond the level of an assisting aid some need.

Key word is abusing. Having a macro that can press 2 keys to perform a sliding melee gives no advantage over a player who can do the same thing (especially in what is basically a PVE game). Someone who loops said macro so they can flawlessly spin to win by holding down one button is now abusing that macro. This is why it needs to be case by case. But please go on how you have no disabilities and feel other people with them should have to compensate some other way. It's a game and everyone should be able to play it if it is fun.

All this post confirms is they don't want to close doors that would allow people to not play their game. You focusing only on what the malicious macros bring is narrow minded.

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Hi there,

So I read all four pages, but I couldn't find an answer to my question. I play using a Razer mouse. Razer Central / Synapse seem to be mandatory when using the mouse. I don't use any macros though. The post is a big too vague in regards to what is allowed and what isn't. Do I need to plug another mouse and uninstall Synapse or what?

Thanks,

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13 minutes ago, CantBearPuns said:

Hi there,

So I read all four pages, but I couldn't find an answer to my question. I play using a Razer mouse. Razer Central / Synapse seem to be mandatory when using the mouse. I don't use any macros though. The post is a big too vague in regards to what is allowed and what isn't. Do I need to plug another mouse and uninstall Synapse or what?

Thanks,

In short you are fine. I got a mouse with macro support and its fine. Their flag system is looking for bot like activities. In your particular case that is hardware software. Unless you macroing it out to look like a bot, you will be fine. I have a logitec mouse with same kind of software and haven't had any issues. 

They are looking for malicious use of programs.

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il y a 12 minutes, Zelmen a dit :

In short you are fine. I got a mouse with macro support and its fine. Their flag system is looking for bot like activities. In your particular case that is hardware software. Unless you macroing it out to look like a bot, you will be fine. I have a logitec mouse with same kind of software and haven't had any issues. 

They are looking for malicious use of programs.

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

 

Best regards,

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Posted (edited)

Auto-banning for certain programs can be an obvious, quality of life improving tactic for your moderators, but those programs that you find fall into a "gray area" between being an aid to people who are handicapped and abused by those that aren't are why you need to have moderators in the first place, not to police the programs themselves, but to police their abuse. That's a part of their job. A program shouldn't make the auto-ban list just because a few deplorables decide to be lazy, literally making the game painful and unplayable for those that aren't using it for a predatory advantage.

No, this post isn't entirely "vague" at all. It's just a blatant admittance of laziness to essentially say "if we find a few people abusing this system, we're just going to black list it" regardless of those who literally can't physically tolerate your game without reasonable aids. It's your job, the job of your moderators to police these things. Just as it's the job of my police officers to monitor handicap parking space for violators. Do you think my police officers just see a couple people parking in handicap parking spots and say "well, guess we have to get rid of handicap parking spaces." No, they do their jobs. They tow away the person abusing the use of these parking spaces. You can do your jobs as well.

Edited by xZeromusx
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I don't know if there will be a step 3, but you guys are serious into cutting down ticket response time, we had 2FA implemented into trading requirements so that in the event the account is compromised investigations can be avoided and bans applied on the account, that's good

Now we have the macros, meaning support can checks the current guidelines and retain bans instead of wasting time investigating, speeding things up

Don't know if you guys are implementing other changes so that support doesn't drag for ages regarding issues that end up being final, like a player selling an account having support investigate only to find out the player was indeed selling the account, i know players like that will try and squeeze their way out of a ban and the more it happens the more ends up being wasted, so guidelines to permanently ban accounts are good.

But why not increase support staff, i understand that on the long term that has costs, but i see you guys doing bold advertisements for the game and tennocon, can't you allocate some budget to pay more support staff and train them?

 

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On 2019-07-03 at 9:07 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

I rather not get carpal or rsi from playing this game thank you.

My nerve damage is bad enough, dont want it to be worse.

That's reasonable.

 

On 2019-07-03 at 9:51 AM, Zelmen said:

While a whitelisting of programs that visually make the game better makes sense but you are extremely closed minded if you think this post is "utter BS". Some people need macros to keep up with other players because they don't have the endurance physically to keep pressing the key combos to perform tasks. Maybe they should take the color blind assist options out because the contrast difference might give them an advantage.

I don't use macros and I disagree so what advantage do I have? I disagree because I know people with health issues that need aids to allow them to do task you don't normally thing about. You comment holds as much weight as saying people who can walked should not get handicap parking close to a building. Some people literally can't walk far distances before needing to sit down again or they might faint. It's called a disability. Anyone who abuses something for personal gain should be held accountable for it. Which is why there is laws protecting handicap parking. It only make sense to allow assisting macros. The problem is anything that can handle macros can be abused beyond the level of an assisting aid some need.

Key word is abusing. Having a macro that can press 2 keys to perform a sliding melee gives no advantage over a player who can do the same thing (especially in what is basically a PVE game). Someone who loops said macro so they can flawlessly spin to win by holding down one button is now abusing that macro. This is why it needs to be case by case. But please go on how you have no disabilities and feel other people with them should have to compensate some other way. It's a game and everyone should be able to play it if it is fun.

All this post confirms is they don't want to close doors that would allow people to not play their game. You focusing only on what the malicious macros bring is narrow minded.

Response to your paragraphs in order:

 

Not being able to keep up isn't a good enough excuse. I hate to to say this because trolls say it but, if someone can't keep up, then keep playing and "git gud". If they lack endurance, then take breaks.

 

I agree about health issues. And, yes, I understand that.

I don't like your tone. Check yourself.

Calling me narrowminded. If only you knew. You are being foolish.

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On 2019-06-26 at 2:20 PM, [DE]Bear said:

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list

What about external software that is running on a different computer with Steam in-home streaming? This is as easy as using the same Steam account on both computers, but only have the game installed on the other computer.

Computer 1 connect to computer 2.
Computer 2 with Warframe and Steam software runs Warframe. Computer 2 cannot detect software that computer 1 is using, such as a Macro software on Computer 1 sending inputs to Steam, and Steam transfers all inputs to Computer 2.

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as always i feel like i have to come in and mention to nobody in particular that Macros can do more than just spam a button. input execution scripts are way more useful than just that, and basically every use case other than spamming a button (or repeating a sequence) isn't malicious in any way >.>

and funnily enough, a lot of games (other games) made entirely for Controllers functionally are chock full of Macros. as single buttons will be bound to many actions, and internally that's one button press is firing off a list of signals. this is functionally identical to a Macro.
this part is not really important at all but it was an interesting thought that passed through my mind while typing.

 

On 2019-06-26 at 3:29 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

By me if its not a Recording Program, Game Overlay like NVidia`s / Discords or plugin like Razer`s Chroma for the game interacting with the mouse/keyboard colors, it should be banned

so, what about this wicked cool Multi-Monitor Software that i use thesedays? that lets me do cool things like escape my Mouse Cursor out of Exclusive Fullscreen Applications without them knowing that they have lost focus.
lets me do amazing things like reap the major Input Latency and Render Latency benefits of Exclusive Fullscreen, while still being able to access the background of my system. it's great.

and you're going to tell me that this Software is malicious in some way? don't make me laugh.

 

On 2019-06-26 at 4:00 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

regret having added Maiming Strike into the game because it made a playstyle they dont like.

it's not the fault of the Players that Blood Rush uses a really poor choice in Mathematical functionality. it's certainly none of our fault when every game mechanic basically draws slips of paper out of a hat as to how it will work mathematically.

FYI: i have a Zaw that does almost exactly the same thing as beyblading with Meme Strike does, but i don't have the Mod Equipped on that Zaw at all. i mostly made it for memes and to make fun of how uneducated the Community is. but it's also kinda fun to use too, since it's a good Melee Weapon.

 

 

On 2019-06-27 at 2:46 PM, Xzorn said:

Removing the arbitrary input cool down between shots on these weapons types would be an easy start.

in a discussion with a friend a bit ago, one of the results out of thinking about Rates of Fire came up with everything being functionally 'Automatic', but with Weapons intended to be of a more precise nature, having an additional delay inserted after each initial Shot, but not present on Shots after the first.
which would make say, a 'full Auto Latron' able to simultaneously be Auto but still allow for controlled individual Shots, due to the extra delay on each initial one.
i'd still want 'everything Auto' to have some cons when firing in such a state rather than taking Shots with much of any precision but it could work atleast

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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

in a discussion with a friend a bit ago, one of the results out of thinking about Rates of Fire came up with everything being functionally 'Automatic', but with Weapons intended to be of a more precise nature, having an additional delay inserted after each initial Shot, but not present on Shots after the first.

which would make say, a 'full Auto Latron' able to simultaneously be Auto but still allow for controlled individual Shots, due to the extra delay on each initial one.
i'd still want 'everything Auto' to have some cons when firing in such a state rather than taking Shots with much of any precision but it could work atleast

 

Sounds like essentially a 2 stage or less pronounced and quicker spooling mechanic?

Aksomati would be an example perhaps. If you tap shoot the gun every shot goes dead center but the moment you spool it's like a bullet sprinkler.

They could do this. It's already in some weapons based on hip-fire or zoomed. It actually drives me crazy when they use it for non-sniper weapons but this would be voluntary unlike the Prisma Grinlok where every 4th shot goes wild for no reason if you hip-fire it and that's supposed to be the point of a rifle over a sniper IMO.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Sounds like essentially a 2 stage or less pronounced and quicker spooling mechanic?

in a way, yeah. where such Weapons have a lower than advertised Rate of Fire between the first and second shots but all shots afterwards are full speed (or normal speed/extra speed, but w/e same difference just different wording).

and tbh the specific type of case you mention, Sniper Rifles is exactly where it drives me crazy. a loss of absolute precision is plenty enough already, making Sniper Rifles borderline useless when not using Fine Aim is quit the understatement to say is overboard(why the fuq do Sniper Rifles need to get less precise than Ignis when hip firing).

Edited by taiiat

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