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[DE]Bear

Third-Party Software and You - A PSA

Question

Greetings, Tenno.

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist cheating, there are some cases where software falls in gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and / or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

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On 2019-07-03 at 6:38 AM, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Ban macros yes

You clearly hate people with disabilities or/and illnesses. And also you seem to hate people who do not wish the get injuries from this spammy af game.

On 2019-07-03 at 6:38 AM, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Anyone who disagree's just wants to defend their advantage.

Do you even think before you write? Do you even know what medical conditions are and how they can affect people? 

On 2019-07-03 at 6:38 AM, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Their most common argument is "well you use it too

I have not seen this, but I do believe this exist. But with this nice strawman argument here you can nicely avoid all real arguments about the matter.

8 hours ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

I agree about health issues.

 And I can finally see where the "illogical" part in your name comes from. So people who have or are developing health issues are not allowed to play or need to be in great disadvantage because that makes sense?

8 hours ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

I don't like your tone. Check yourself.

Calling me narrowminded. If only you knew.

You will probably not like mine either but this attitude deserve it. And without explanation we cannot know, this is why this comment sounds really narrow minded where you just want those with disabilities and such not to be able to play even close to how others can. 
 

But please do tell me how you want your game to look so pretty with nice shaders, that is the most important part. (Even tho I do not disagree, I still think there are more important matters than nice shaders)

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Imagine getting banned because you use discord while playing warframe with friends XD

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6 hours ago, Gamalahalaf said:

1.You clearly hate people with disabilities or/and illnesses. And also you seem to hate people who do not wish the get injuries from this spammy af game.
 

2.Do you even think before you write? Do you even know what medical conditions are and how they can affect people? 

3.I have not seen this, but I do believe this exist. But with this nice strawman argument here you can nicely avoid all real arguments about the matter.

 4.And I can finally see where the "illogical" part in your name comes from. So people who have or are developing health issues are not allowed to play or need to be in great disadvantage because that makes sense?

5.You will probably not like mine either but this attitude deserve it. And without explanation we cannot know, this is why this comment sounds really narrow minded where you just want those with disabilities and such not to be able to play even close to how others can. 
 

6.But please do tell me how you want your game to look so pretty with nice shaders, that is the most important part. (Even tho I do not disagree, I still think there are more important matters than nice shaders)

I added numbers above for reference.

1. You clearly lack the ability to not assume thing's about people. I actually help people with disabilities, illnesses, and a lot more, you don't know me, don't even go there. I've probably done more for people than you have. Also, I've said this a few times now: I understand and accept the reasoning for use of macros for people with illness/injury.

2. Do you? Um. Yeah, do you know how not to be an A******?

3. Ok

4. You are something else smh

5. Lol, go log off and chill out, and stop putting words in my mouth/assuming thing's, because it makes you look really silly.

6. After this? Ha, no.

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On 2019-07-03 at 2:51 PM, Zelmen said:

Maybe they should take the color blind assist options out because the contrast difference might give them an advantage.

What colourblind assist options?

*badum tss*

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7 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

You clearly lack the ability to not assume thing's about people. I actually help people with disabilities, illnesses, and a lot more, you don't know me, don't even go there. I've probably done more for people than you have. Also, I've said this a few times now: I understand and accept the reasoning for use of macros for people with illness/injury.

Oh the irony. And now what is a reasonable standard you would say people need to be disabled to have a right to use macros. And this standard is proven how exactly? 

9 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Um. Yeah, do you know how not to be an A******?

I do, but when I meet one, I don't mind telling them.

10 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

You are something else smh

I do not see how I would be illogical in my stance to not ban them, when I'm saying not to ban them, they are useful for multiple reasons.

11 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Lol, go log off and chill out, and stop putting words in my mouth/assuming thing's, because it makes you look really silly.

Well this is the message what you were sending, you said that you understand that people have conditions that might need this and still said that it needs to be out right banned. I do not know how I can assume something else when you say this?

 

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Honestly, how useless can a post get, I sentence telling you to hey "do so at your own risk". And then a bunch of excuses, "gray" areas, come on, like anyone here buys that this is something other than just a pretext for allowing the developers themselves, to not hold themselves to any standards whatsoever, because its a "case to case basis". Trials are also case to case bases, but they act in accordance to something called law, here you just act in accordance with your own subjectivity.

Many games have taken stances on macros and many other third party software, its not as complicated as its made out to be, nor it wont have a negative repercussion as its made out to be.

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On 2019-07-03 at 10:53 PM, Zelmen said:

In short you are fine. I got a mouse with macro support and its fine. Their flag system is looking for bot like activities. In your particular case that is hardware software. Unless you macroing it out to look like a bot, you will be fine. I have a logitec mouse with same kind of software and haven't had any issues. 

They are looking for malicious use of programs.

No one is fine. You clearly haven't read the post didn't you? Here in red text: If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

What are you talking about? They don't have a system for that. Hence that statement. People are raging here coz they haven't made anything clear. As I said, the gray area on macro use before just became muddy AF coz of this post. So the question in everybody's mind now is, can we still use macro or not? Warframe's response is: WELL YES, BUT NOT REALLY, MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW. DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK! 
#ENJOYTHEBAN

Get it now?
 

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So vague.

Why do people hate spin2win so much? It's a game mechanic. Memeing strike increases the critical chance on slide attack. Why is it bad to utilize this? Well, I guess you can spam ctrl+E but I wouldn't risk my hand health (google carpal tunnel syndrome). In this case, are spin2win macros fine? Use at your own risk is not an answer.

Yes I know it's difficult to judge what is allowed and what is not. But a few examples would help. Reshade only alters the appearance of the game, so is it allowed? Use at your own risk. Really?

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So [DE]Bear am I at any risk of getting banned for using a slide attack macro?
A macro I used because I am unable to slide attack with out it thanks to the fact I broke my left pinky twice and the corresponding knuckle once.

And if that is the case will I need to uninstall the drives for my mouse and keyboard because they both support Macros?

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En 26/6/2019 a las 20:52, [DE]Bear dijo:

You should treat this post as one that supersedes previous statements made on the matter. This statement goes for all forms of third-party software, including macro programs. Again, the reason we do not issue blanket bans is because we do recognize the use these programs have for some members of the community. Sadly those same programs can be used for AFK farming and the like, so context is important here and is dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

First of all, excuse my English, I use a translator.

 I understand the reason why these programs are blocked, and personally I do not use any macro program to play. I believe that a macro program should not be allowed if it serves to abuse the game. I know that other players use macro for the sliding attack but I personally see better to add an option in the game keyboard configuration to execute it by pressing that button in this way the whole world would have access to it without the need of programs.

But this is not the issue that worries me most, but what really worries me is receiving a ban for carelessness. As I said earlier in this same post. I prefer that directly the game will not let you execute it, or that it closes if you execute a program of this type, in this way to avoid carelessness.

I say this from the experience of having run cheat engine by mistake since I had it in another window. Although the support of the game is wonderful I think this is a way to avoid carelessness of people like me, that many times we just enter to play and we forget programs open in the background.

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Thank you for providing this information, sadly I already lost one account.

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On 2019-07-08 at 8:40 AM, Rannaway said:

Thank you for providing this information, sadly I already lost one account.

Back when the xp *bug* happen?

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On 2019-06-26 at 9:29 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

By me if its not a Recording Program, Game Overlay like NVidia`s / Discords or plugin like Razer`s Chroma for the game interacting with the mouse/keyboard colors, it should be banned, including Macros as people still exploit them for shameful Spin2Win mechanics.

what is there to exploit in "shameful spin2win mechanics" they are embedded ingame and you can litteraly just crouch + E and that would count as "exploiting shameful Spin2Win mechanics" macros are usually used by people who get hurt from doing the same action over and over again (destroy your m1 and your finger so you can enjoy the akbolto series for all i care i don't wanna risk my finger) or combining a 2 button step into a single button (oh wow this is a complex action and combining it into a single button is cheating because you don't need to think and it's not complex anymore..SHUT TH,uhum) it's 2 buttons into one it's not automating it it's not a bot playing in your place WTF is wrong with you just because you don't use it doesn't mean people don't have the right to, even DE said you can use it but it's at your own risk  so why do you even care in the first place since you're not the one the message is directed to.

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This thread is now officially a sh*t show. Well done guys.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think DE has been unclear in the past, and DE isn't unclear now.

If you actually used your brain it was always (since 2014 on onwards) pretty clear that any use of macros etc. that resulted in an increased performance was prohibited. And increased performance includes superhuman reflexes (aka button/combo spamming), superhuman endurance (aka repeating commands for extended periods) and accessing your keyboard with psi powers ("playing" while AFK). All of this has always been "illegal", what has been inconsistent is DEs will and power to enforce it, which in turn has led to players pushing the boundaries (and overstepping them).

What has always been ok is using macros to copy normal play, for instance replacing the pushing of two buttons at once with pushing a single macro button. This also takes care of "disabled" argument (mostly made by "not-disabled" players, it would seem). There isn't and has never been any logic behind making a "disabled" argument for keeping a continuous spin2win-macro enabled (a macro that by default is illegal, btw).

The new guidelines are quite specific, don't use enhancing 3rd party software to enhance your playing capacity, and if you do so you do it at your own risk. There is no real need for using such software, as you can play the game perfectly well without macros (etc), after all millions and millions of players do (play without enhancing macros).

The "why" is a bit more muddy, that is why disallow and punish technology that exist, mostly is free and is available to most players. There are lots of reasons (for and against), however, in the end it all boils down to what DE wants. And that is perfectly clear, don't use such sh*t, and if you do it is at your own risk. The punishment is severe, and the process of trying to prove that you really didn't do anything wrong is both hard and long.

Edited by Graavarg

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-07-03 at 4:34 PM, CantBearPuns said:

Hi there,

So I read all four pages, but I couldn't find an answer to my question. I play using a Razer mouse. Razer Central / Synapse seem to be mandatory when using the mouse. I don't use any macros though. The post is a big too vague in regards to what is allowed and what isn't. Do I need to plug another mouse and uninstall Synapse or what?

Thanks,

Same here. Without Synapse, I wouldn't be able to change my sensitivity and profiles on the go. I need it to be able to make use of modular thumb panels as well [Razer-Trinity].

We need clarification, please. 🙂

Edited by -LB-Tanuki

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-07-15 at 2:38 PM, Graavarg said:

don't use enhancing 3rd party software to enhance your playing capacity, and if you do so you do it at your own risk

Well, this makes sense but when you think about it wider, what is the point of primed fury, berserker, arcanes, volts speed, wisps reservoirs etc? Basically, we are given the ability to boost our speed (attack / fire rate) to the point where we can not even make use of it, hehe.

From the information that I was able to gather, basic macros are not enough to guarantee a ban.

Harmless and simple macro do not aim for you, detect an enemy and automatically fire • it doesn't have control over your timing and senses • it doesn't command your warframe • basically, it doesn't play the game for you. Quote from support:

Quote

For the most part, if you are not downloading a program or files that change the textures in game or play the game for you (i.e. aimbots, autofire, etc.) then you will be just fine.

Anyway, from now on I will stop using Synapse built-in functions (an app that came with the Razer products without which I can't use most features) because I am honestly scared. I love this game and I don't want to get banned. We need more clarification on what type or if any macros are allowed. To this point I thought they were ok (something basic, like connecting 2 buttons into 1), mainly because of some old forum posts, players / youtubers / streamers statements and this support reply that I got when I was making sure if my account is safe:

Quote

Meshing two commands together for the purposes of ease of use is totally understandable, for a specific example. Programs not involved in what we deem to be cheating, will not be banned.

Now I am confused. 😛

Edited by -LB-Tanuki
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On 2019-07-08 at 8:40 AM, Rannaway said:

Thank you for providing this information, sadly I already lost one account.

May I know what was the cause of it? Was it a specific app, macros in general or what? 

Didn't you get any warning? No temporary suspension?

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Posted (edited)
On ‎2019‎-‎07‎-‎15 at 5:08 PM, -LB-Tanuki said:

Well, this makes sense but when you think about it wider, what is the point of primed fury, berserker, arcanes, volts speed, wisps reservoirs etc?

...

Quote from support: "For the most part, if you are not downloading a program or files that change the textures in game or play the game for you (i.e. aimbots, autofire, etc.) then you will be just fine."

As to the first question (above), there is really a HUGE difference between in-game mechanics provided by the developer and 3rd party "enhancements" allowing you to bypass, change or add to in-game mechanics. At least this is very clear to me, and while I am using and have used LGS macros extensively I have been very careful to not cross this line (as I perceive it).

As to the second line, aimbots, enemy radars, insta-teleports, unkillability etc. are all clearly cheats/hacks, just as they are in other games (and the technique is basically the same, reading from and changing stuff in game memory-space). You cannot achieve aimbotting with only macros. However, you can easily achieve "auto-fire", by using a macro that turns a key/mouse command feed on (and off). This is what the problems with spin2win was (from the cheating perspective, or as per the rules "play the game for you"/"autofire"), it wasn't exactly uncommon for spin2win players to use such an on/off macro, turning it on and then just steering their spin-bot around through the map. To me this is clearly against the rules, as no such function exists in-game and this adds a new function through third-party software (and in addition it gives an advantage to the "cheating" player compared to those only playing within the rules using only the in-game mechanics). The resulting bans thus weren't surprising either. However, it took DE quite some time to react and the enforcement wasn't all that consistent, which led to a lot of discussion about lacking clarity and unfairness (one player could get banned while another continued using the same type of macro without DE apparently noticing).

I think a lot of problems comes from mixing two different discussions into one, that is "what the rules say and mean" and "why are there rules and are they meaningful/fair". A third problem (discussion-wise) is including "intention" into the discussion. I could use a "move around"-macro with the intention of being able to have a short "technical break" during a long mission without triggering AFK-status (my intention being only able to run to the bathroom to pee), but someone else could use exactly the same macro with the intention to AFK-leech the drops. While most would agree that it is ok that the second "cheat" results in a ban, many obviously feel that it would be "unfair being banned for peeing". But of course DE cannot (and shouldn't) get into judging intentions, and the end result (from using exactly the same illegal macro) is that both players are banned. The same applies to the "oh, my finger gets so sore playing so much that I should be allowed to cheat"-argument (which is a non-starter, logically).

Edited by Graavarg

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On 2019-06-26 at 12:34 PM, DeMonkey said:

Without wanting to cause a fuss, this post seems to be... possibly the least helpful thing that could have been posted on the matter.

Essentially it reads to me as "maybe, but don't do it, but maybe you'd be okay, but don't do it". I can't really see this resolving people's questions, if anything an official "maybe" seems like it'll have the opposite effect and create more questions on the subject, even with the inclusion of various forms of "but don't do it".

I don't and have no intention of using any such program, just voicing a concern.

Unfortunately, in this situation, specifying the intention to prevent cheating, but not the specific ways you might go about it is the best that can be done. 

What I understood from the post is that cheaters use ever evolving techniques so laying down hard definitions of what 3rd party software is banned or not would quickly become redundant as cheaters find new ways to exploit the game.

At the same time, banning all 3rd party software would keep out people who have legitimate reasons to use 3rd party software. That isn’t good either.

Its a difficult situation, but I think this response is the best answer that finds a balance between locking out cheaters and letting in people who are just using 3rd party software for accessibility or a little convenience.

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On 2019-07-15 at 6:43 AM, -LB-Tanuki said:

Same here. Without Synapse, I wouldn't be able to change my sensitivity and profiles on the go. I need it to be able to make use of modular thumb panels as well [Razer-Trinity].

We need clarification, please. 🙂

Well, if someone finds a way to use synapse to exploit the game, it might get banned.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-07-21 at 5:06 PM, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

Well, if someone finds a way to use synapse to exploit the game, it might get banned.

Now a days most mouses come with an app, without which we wouldn't be able to use even some of the most basic functions. In many cases, app like this is seen as a mouse drivers. I don't think they can simply ban it. On top of that, there is an option in game, related with Synapse:

jGHR9aL.jpg

Hmmmm... I beliave there are many ways in which you can exploit the game with the right macro - obviously, this should not be allowed. On the other hand tho, banning an essential app is a bit too much.

Most people don't use macros at all yet still, got Synapse working in the background. Some people use it for something basic and harmless like for example: [casting Atlas/Khora 1st ability] or [connecting 2 buttons into 1]. I don't think, these groups of people should get banned.

This whole problem is more complex than it seems like.

Edited by -LB-Tanuki

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On ‎2019‎-‎07‎-‎21 at 7:05 PM, -LB-Tanuki said:

Hmmmm... I beliave there are many ways in which you can exploit the game with the right macro - obviously, this should not be allowed. On the other hand tho, banning an essential app is a bit too much. 

I think this is what DE is doing (as are many other games). Anti-cheat systems check for software only used to cheat, but legitimate software is of course ok (like Synapse ot equivalent software). On the other hand they also check what you do with the legitimate software (i.e. "inputs"), and it is not very hard to conclude when someone is using a macro against the rules. They also check drops and mission times etc., that is looking for players using exploits.

We had a slight problem with a player in our clan, who used a macro with Orthos Prime utlilizing both an "attack on/off" setting and a sort of exploit (a combo of commands breaking the animation to achieve "super attack speed"). We threatened to stop playing with the guy (be in the same squad), since we were worried that DE would see us as accomplices (he excelled at dropping bosses and tougher opponents etc.), and that made him stop. This was some time ago, before DE tightened up, and the "animation exploit" has been fixed as per the melee changes. I am pretty sure he would risk getting banned quickly today. This type of "exploit" was not uncommon back then, there were a lot of different variants (like breaking the reload animation to increase your overall dps).

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On 2019-07-20 at 2:57 PM, Graavarg said:

The same applies to the "oh, my finger gets so sore playing so much that I should be allowed to cheat"-argument (which is a non-starter, logically).

Now what about the fact I broke my left pinky twice and the knuckle once?

So it results in any finger straightening hurting. Should I give up one of the most effective ways to deal damage, or should i follow the 2015 disability guidelines and use a macro that allows sub pre-injury performance at most can do it twice a second (which is slower than my pre-injury time)

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Posted (edited)

Razer Central and Synapse seemed mandatory when I plugged this Razer mouse in. While I don't use any macros whatsoever or don't adjust the LPI on the fly (pretty much treating this Razer mouse as a mouse with three buttons: a scroll, a left and a right button), Razer Synapse (part of Razer Central) still runs in the background.

I can shut this program down even if I never configured any macros. If this is not enough then I don't know what it is because I'm pretty sure Razer Central or Synapse won't run in the background.

I just find it ironic that DE's post is so vague but we still have a Razer Chroma plugin in-game. So you'd figure that, sure, a list is not possible. However, it doesn't help that the implication here is: "we cannot give out a list of softwares you may or may not use" while a plugin in-game for a third party hardware that comes with a third party software can be found inside the game you're asking the users to use said third party softwares at your own risk. I admit that I might be a retarded who didn't understand DE's post very well, but in my head, the way to go is this:

http://prntscr.com/ojl3r5

Be clear about what is allowed and what isn't, considering that Chroma Razer support can be found inside your game. The EULA specifies "automation methods" as a punitive action and that I can understand properly. However, some players use Discord to launch your game. When I buy Platinum to support you guys through Steam Wallet then a Steam overlay pops up. Heck I use a third party software (Steam) to launch your game. If you can't state what isn't allowed, then you may as well state what is.

A clarification helps you guys, DE, and helps us too.

 

Edited by CantBearPuns

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