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[DE]Bear

Third-Party Software and You - A PSA

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Greetings, Tenno.

We have seen a few requests lately, specifically requesting that we provide a list of software that we do and do not allow to run in conjunction with Warframe. While it is understood that some software is good and others are inherently bad or designed to assist cheating, there are some cases where software falls in gray areas.

The reason for this post is to have an updated reference about our policy on external, third-party software, and the potential pitfalls of using such software in conjunction with Warframe.

The simple, golden rule is this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.

While we could technically issue blanket bans on everything that alters the game files, the fact of the matter is that there's some software that can be useful and helpful for members of our community. This is where context is very important. The difficulty here is that it's incredibly hard for players to prove that they are not using a program nefariously, and while it is certainly possible that there are false positives (which a ticket to support can resolve), the ban will remain in place until your ticket can be processed.

This leads into why a list is not provided. If you have a piece of Macro software that is normally tolerated, but is then discovered to be the source of a future exploit, that software may get added to a ban list, and you could potentially be caught up in the automatic drag net. As stated above, there is no easy way to prove that the software used is benign.

Bans for altering game files, cheating and / or exploiting Warframe are hefty and final. Our stance on using such software is firm, and appealing against that ban is very difficult if we have reason to believe that you have been using said software for cheating, exploiting, or AFK farming.

The only way you can reliably, 100% avoid a ban for using external software is to simply not use it. 

Again, if you take anything away from this post, it should be this;

If you use external software in conjunction with Warframe, then you do so at your own risk.
 

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Posted (edited)

My take: if the macro itself is extremely simple and rudimentary, doing things that you can do physically but may be painful or inconvenient over a period of time (like bullet jumping or spin attacking), at least ethically what you're doing is fine.  Ctrl+E is hardly even a macro, it's basic functionality for the Steam Controller.  Those wishing for those simply combining two button presses into one to be banned just for that are likely SoL, it's an accessibilty issue for some and a comfort issue for others.  The macro's not really going to make the game really easy for you in a way that any able-bodied player isn't already.  At this level, macros are just a way to work around Warframe's somehat limited rebinding support, where you can't have a dedicated spin attack or bullet jump button.

Macros become an issue once it starts automating the game, to permit you to AFK or do things that are otherwise not possible without a macro (ie exploiting a glitch that otherwise requires frame-perfect timing to pull off).

Other third party software includes a tool that takes a screenshot of opened relics to then post ducat prices.  This clearly has no impact on actual gameplay and is just providing third-party information in a more convenient format to make the game more enjoyable.  Veteran players don't really need it per se, but it's very handy for newer players to realize when a particular prime part is really valuable.  No harm caused.

The caginess is the same caginess we got from Capcom for Monster Hunter - rights need to be reserved to take action without prior promises being disingenuously used by cheaters to avoid being banned.  And certain tools could be used to cheat, and ultimately DE wants to reserve the right to ban what they need to ban to keep the game as cheat free as possible.

For Monster Hunter World on PC, the vagueness about third party software has in practice not restricted any non-malicious modifications, if you're not giving yourself an advantage others can't and aren't ruining hunts Capcom doesn't give a S#&$.  Warframe's a bit of a different beast given its different monetization model, there's not really room to have something as extreme as modders implementing custom bosses or anything, but I would assume this post is meant to permit tools that in spirit are not disruptive to other players and have a minimal potential to be used for disruptive purposes, with the assumption that they may need to forbid some tools if that's the only way to make sure cheaters get detected.

AHK is probably going to be fine, along with Steam Input, so long the macros aren't allowing a player to AFK.  The need to accommodate people for whom clicking rapidly or spamming Ctrl+E is physically painful or impossible due to missing fingers likely means DE won't try to mess with that if only to avoid drawing condemnation from AbleGamers and similar organizations.  Complaints about spin2win are better directed towards balance discussions, and complaints about firing speed are much better handled by just not having weapons that have no limit on how quickly they can be fired.  You can replicate the latter just by binding your mousewheel to fire and just scrolling, it's silly to complain about that.

Edited by VincentHelmic
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On 2019-08-25 at 5:55 AM, VincentHelmic said:

My take: if the macro itself is extremely simple and rudimentary, doing things that you can do physically but may be painful or inconvenient over a period of time (like bullet jumping or spin attacking), at least ethically what you're doing is fine.  Ctrl+E is hardly even a macro, it's basic functionality for the Steam Controller.  Those wishing for those simply combining two button presses into one to be banned just for that are likely SoL, it's an accessibilty issue for some and a comfort issue for others. 

I think combining Ctrl+E as another key/press would be perfectly fine, but having a macro starts/stops sending repeated Ctrl+E to the game as an on/off-function is a perfect example of what is "not fine".

That you consider yourself ethically allowed to do so is completely irrelevant, as it is DE and their watchdog algorithms that make the decision. We have no real info or input into that. The ethical question is rather what to say to a player that does what you declare to be "ethically fine", and then as a consequence gets banned for an extended period of years (effectively probably "forever"). At least that is what is on my mind when reading arguments for and against, and my conclusion is that it is better (or more ethical, if you will) to err on the side of caution...

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Just create a feature where we can combine two or more buttons together and an option to HOLD a button instead of infinite taps that may cause injury. Maybe after we have that or more you can make all macros totally illegal.

Create a balance between total convenience but not exploitative.

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Posted (edited)

We live in a world where a game company is allowed to watch and scan your whole PC. No one knows how they all handle your sensitive data. I get it they might only collect ingame inputs and such but who can proof that? Is the government or any other 3rd party checking on that? No!
You know that when it comes to the survival of a company or a lot of money companies barely tend to play by the rule-book!

It's also strange that they can just ban you for having some software installed that "might" give you an advantage. 

Like nowadays where nearly every 2nd keyboard comes with a macro software pre-installed they go:"Well use it at your own risk, you are forced to check and pre-selectg what sofware you have installed while playing a ****** game and it's your responsibility otherwise they just say:"Sorry but we warned you....on the forum and somewhere in line 2043 of our TOS".

It's like those old days when in windows xp the first browser you were allowed to have was the internet explorer until a lawsuit made microsoft to exlude the IE and made it optional.

It feels like a witch hunt, and whoever has red hair is frightened because some god-knows-what software will point with its finger to you even though the only crime you did was to have red hair.

It really is like that. Cause it's not about cheating and using real damaging cheats that ruin the fun of many other players. No, its the macros that ruins DE's profit and they just don't want you do skip the grind in any way but spent as much time and money in this game as possible.

Hell, you are not even allowed to post things like I do right now or you might get a strike or ban. I got a 3 day ban on Steam for saying things like that and when some usual "troll" started insulting me personally because of my opinion I got the ban hammer for replying to him in an "unrespectful" way (after he used phrases like "idiot" and "retarded" whereas I only said "get lost") and he didnt face any consequences when he was the one using slurs and demeaning words. Very unbiased decision there. very nice.
I like this game. I play it since 5 years now. I don't mind the greedy grind that has a skipto-paywall behind it. Hell I am using it quite often.
If people use scripts in pvp I would say, go ahead, get them, but this is 99% of the time a co-op game where  I don't even care if the guy 50m beside me has an aimbot or some other S#&$ as long as it doesnt take away my change to get the stuff I came for.

Not many will agree with me, many will even get triggered by my opinion. I can only hope things will change in the next years and companies will have to adjust their policies like microsoft had to so they don't have the complete monopoly over everything.
 

 

Edited by Stormwind81
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On 2019-10-04 at 7:23 PM, Stormwind81 said:

Cause it's not about cheating and using real damaging cheats that ruin the fun of many other players. No, its the macros that ruins DE's profit and they just don't want you do skip the grind in any way but spent as much time and money in this game as possible.

I think you are completely wrong.

For me it is exactly about damaging cheats that ruin the fun, the game and the gameplay for other players. That is why "automating" the gameplay is prohibited, as it should be.

The enforcement of this together with removing the ability to deal melee damage through walls etc. has made the game much (MUCH) nicer to play. Yes, you still meet the occasional spin2win-bot, but maybe one or two per week where before you had one or two per mission. And now, while the bot does it's boring thing, you can at least spend the mission gloating about it's upcoming ban.

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On 2019-06-27 at 3:32 AM, lukinu_u said:

The remind me the moment I build a motorized lego machine to AFK farm in T4 defense with Mesa, it were super efficient XD

Reminds me of the days I need to keep pressing Desecrate with nekros in 30mins survivals just to farm mats, at least 1800 times per match.

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Am 8.10.2019 um 15:22 schrieb Graavarg:

I think you are completely wrong.

For me it is exactly about damaging cheats that ruin the fun, the game and the gameplay for other players. That is why "automating" the gameplay is prohibited, as it should be.

The enforcement of this together with removing the ability to deal melee damage through walls etc. has made the game much (MUCH) nicer to play. Yes, you still meet the occasional spin2win-bot, but maybe one or two per week where before you had one or two per mission. And now, while the bot does it's boring thing, you can at least spend the mission gloating about it's upcoming ban.

Well what can I say, maybe my english is not the best or you took it out of context on purpose to hop on the bandwagon. Idk and I don't mean it derogatory but I feel misunderstood by you.
If there are players out that cheat their way by skipping the grind you wouldn't even notice it in Warframe cause they play solo! But I also bet you could have even played with some of them and had a blast talking to them.

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22 hours ago, Stormwind81 said:

Well what can I say, maybe my english is not the best or you took it out of context on purpose to hop on the bandwagon. Idk and I don't mean it derogatory but I feel misunderstood by you.
If there are players out that cheat their way by skipping the grind you wouldn't even notice it in Warframe cause they play solo! But I also bet you could have even played with some of them and had a blast talking to them.

Playing solo is a different ballgame, if all spin2win bots only played solo or together with their bot friends no-one would notice them. But at least some of them don't, you still meet them regularly in void fissures, ESO and lately arbitrations. Luckily their number seems to continuously diminish, hopefully moving towards extinction. 

It's nothing personal, I just don't like players giving themselves the right to use "enhanced" methods in a squad-based game and playing in squads where it impacts the other squad members. The rules, their implementation and the bans I leave to DE. I don't think the rules are in any way hard to understand or to follow, the only reason for claiming "a lack of clarity" is to create a grey zone where players feel they can do what actually is prohibited.

Creating effective macros is really fun, a sort of mini-programming with immediate rewards. But the idea of using macros to get an edge over other gamers in an online multiplayer completely sucks, there is simply no way around that. 

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If a player is only suspected of using something that they shouldn't, issue a 20min ban which would trigger on their next log-in. In its description, it would say that
"It seems like a software on your computer is <doing this>. Please, don't use such software or at least adjust it so it's not <causing the actions we don't like>. If you have any questions, feel free to contact support and/or visit the Forums."

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