(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) Now i'm not saying i speak on behalf of warframe players...but i speak on behalf of warframe players when i say that this change did more harm than good... Before anyone says "this is phase one they're going to fix all the problems"...NO! This is not how phases work...you don't make a phase that destroyed half of melee and non melee applications in a game then release a phase 2 to fix phase 1...that's just dumb....they had months to fix and undo all the issues...but they went silent... Now let me explain... Did any of you actually wanted the faster switch mechanic?...no? Will you probably didn't mind...but do you mind removing your choice to block completely and make channeling -a mechanic that takes your energy when used- a toggle? Do you realize how useless holster mods are now?...you don't even need to switch between primary and secondary when you can clip the switching animation with the faster melee switch button I think they made blocking automatic because they didn't know where to put it... I mean..we now have a button that zoom switches to our ranged weapon on the fly...and one to shoot switch our ranged weapon on the fly...like why have 2 buttons to swtich from melee? Aren't we fast enough? Do you really need 2 buttons 2 babysit us? Do you also realize that they semi nerfed valkyr because you can risk accidentally equipping your primary weapon while in hysteria? How slam attacks are now broken ragdoll machines? Did you know that before, we had a slam that causes enemy knockdown? An actuall usefull slam that i can use? How ugly the combos are now with aim+attack combo? (Even more clunky with wukong combos post rework...the aim/switch button just ruins the combos) What worries me is that...it's kind of too late at the moment ...they spent time and effort on adding this stuff...they won't undo it After what? 3 months of silence?...what can we possibly expect from phase 2? ...they unpinned melee rework feedback thread...which gives me all kinds of worries... Either 1.they finished melee 3.0 and do not need any more feedback 2.they realized they can't fix all problems that they've caused with this update and just decided they're going to ignore phase 1 and drop phase 2 anyway So yea that's it...i guess we should wait after tenno con and see what happens Unless they waited all this time to reveal the complete melee 3.0 at tenno con...which is not worth ignoring your player's feedback completely for months... Thank you. Edited June 28, 2019 by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk people misinterpreting my title 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: Did any of you actually wanted the faster switch mechanic? I did. Faster switch mechanics enable more choice in combat, increasing the depth available to the player. Faster weapon switch is strictly a good thing and it's a crying shame that similar speed hasn't been implemented for switching guns. You're twisting most of the stuff here into negatives when the system's a mixed bag, with both positive, negative and subjective changes. The only thing that's strictly been negative is the blocking change, which I've seen an overwhelming majority against, even with supporters to the new system, including myself. That comes part and parcel with the Valkyr and Aim Glide complaints. You're acting like the feedback is universal, and universally negative. It's not. The system is mixed and so is the response to it. I don't know why they haven't responded to the feedback, but I'd wager a big part of it is probably because it's so mixed. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maka.Bones Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Yeah, we did actually ask for a change to melee 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Lugia Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Zitat Did any of you actually wanted the faster switch mechanic?...no? Will you probably didn't mind...but do you mind removing your choice to block completely and make channeling -a mechanic that takes your energy when used- a toggle? Yes, i alwas had problems with trying to switch fast between weapons, especially with the zenistar. I never used block aktive, besides standing at the exit and waiting for the others, so nothing of value got lost for me. I´ve never been a fan of channeling, butbeeing able to fast switch between guns and a toggled melee weapon feels great ( as long st its low level <100). Zitat Do you realize how useless holster mods are now?...you don't even need to switch between primary and secondary when you can clip the switching animation with the faster melee switch button There a holster mods? kappa There are much more usefull mods imo, than wasting a slot to a holster mod Zitat Do you also realize that they semi nerfed valkyr because you can risk accidentally equipping your primary weapon while in hysteria? Yeah that´s kinda annoying, but´i´m getting used to her 1 as movement ability which is making things a bit better/easier Zitat How slam attacks are now broken ragdoll machines? Did you know that before, we had a slam that causes enemy knockdown? An actuall usefull slam that i can use? I first was really sceptical about the new slam attacks, but now i´m a big fan. i like that it´s now directional and has some aoe cc, so you don´t get instant killed whille recovering from the slam attack animation. Zitat How ugly the combos are now with aim+attack combo? (Even more clunky with wukong combos post rework...the aim/switch button just ruins the combos) I don´t have any problems using the combos i used before, but i sometimes miss the quick melee attack Zitat What worries me is that...it's kind of too late at the moment ...they spent time and effort on adding this stuff...they won't undo it We´ll let´s see how it developes, there is still this "rage" mode and other stuff they wanted to add/change. Maybe you can bring up your ideas in that dev workshop once it´s up. Zitat After what? 3 months of silence?...what can we possibly expect from phase 2? Maybe when things are a bit more near release. Things like the ghouls/orb spiders were teased long time ago (and if i remember right even for the orb vallis tease/release) and it took DE quite a while till they showed it to us again. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) From what I've read. Most players don't use melee combos much. I used them a lot along with slam attacks, slides and mixing everything in between. For me this change has been mostly negative. Positives: The biggest perk being that I can throw my Zenistar Disc without swapping weapons which really has little to do with melee. The other perk is that I can Condition Overload spoof other melee weapon instead of mostly polearms, glaives and a few others. Negatives: Melee Slam now knocks enemies out of melee range. Stance combos are harder to do if I want to keep quick swap. Can no longer glide-roll or glide in general with Exalted weapons. Exalted Blade's Auto-Parry feature is now pointless. Lost quick attack mobility for certain weapons like polearms. Some combos like blocking are even more cumbersome. Auto-Parry can interrupt some actions. They asked us to try this out but what we have doesn't work. Melee is still all or nothing and until that changes Quick attack with hard swapping had better functionality. I feel if they hadn't introduced mods like Blood Rush, Body Count, Weeping Wounds and instead increased all melee weapon damage / status we wouldn't have this twisted mess they're now trying to sort through. They screwed it up in the first place so forgive me if I don't have the most faith in what's to come. Edited June 28, 2019 by Xzorn 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 6 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: Did any of you actually wanted the faster switch mechanic? Always a good sign when a thread starts with a question that assumes the answer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeaHawk Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: Did any of you actually wanted the faster switch mechanic? I did not. Furthermore, I hate the way it is implemented now. It is just ugly and dumb. And it is inconsistent as well. It does not make any sense. Why you should switch between primary and secondary, but somehow a melee weapon is literally materializing right in your hand ready to hit and disappears all of a sudden? Melee is a weapon as much as your primary or secondary. So why logically should it have no switching animation? It is way too arcade-ish. Making melee switch animation faster/give it an attack animation that could damage while switching would be great. Removing it at all is a bad move. It makes feel a melee weapon more like an utility attack than a an entity, а full-fledged weapon it used to be. When it comes to RMB. Just tell me why? That's #*!%ed up. I used to fly high above with my god damn sword and terrorize enemies. Now I can't. Now I even don't use melee at all. Clunky animations and dumb new mechanics makes it too freaking dull. Edited June 28, 2019 by TeaHawk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted June 28, 2019 Author Share Posted June 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Loza03 said: I did. Faster switch mechanics enable more choice in combat, increasing the depth available to the player. Faster weapon switch is strictly a good thing and it's a crying shame that similar speed hasn't been implemented for switching guns. You're twisting most of the stuff here into negatives when the system's a mixed bag, with both positive, negative and subjective changes. The only thing that's strictly been negative is the blocking change, which I've seen an overwhelming majority against, even with supporters to the new system, including myself. That comes part and parcel with the Valkyr and Aim Glide complaints. You're acting like the feedback is universal, and universally negative. It's not. The system is mixed and so is the response to it. I don't know why they haven't responded to the feedback, but I'd wager a big part of it is probably because it's so mixed. I'm not twisting the update to make to look entirelynegative...i read some good feedback on in the melee 2.9 feedback thread and they're not happy Look what i'm trying to say is...is a faster switch mechanic a good thing in the game? Of course...but it ruined other things...i think they made blcoking automatic because they didn't know where to put it...a dumb move...it's weird because we now have a button that zoom switches to your ranged weapon on the fly...and a button that shoots your ranged weapons on the fly Like...why have both?...aren't we fast enough? Was it necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted June 28, 2019 Author Share Posted June 28, 2019 14 minutes ago, TeaHawk said: I did not. Furthermore, I hate the way it is implemented now. It is just ugly and dumb. And it is inconsistent as well. It does not make any sense. Why you should switch between primary and secondary, but somehow a melee weapon is literally materializing right in your hand ready to hit and disappears all of a sudden? Melee is a weapon as much as your primary or secondary. So why logically should it have no switching animation? It is way too arcade-ish. Making melee switch animation faster/give it an attack animation that could damage while switching would be great. Removing it at all is a bad move. It makes feel a melee weapon more like an utility attack than a an entity, а full-fledged weapon it used to be. When it comes to RMB. Just tell me why? That's #*!%ed up. I used to fly high above with my god damn sword and terrorize enemies. Now I can't. Now I even don't use melee at all. Clunky animations and dumb new mechanics makes it too freaking dull. Like i said...they also wasted two buttons to switch...one that shoot switches to my ranged weapon and one that zoom switches...it's so infuriating they were that dumb to ignore blocking and ruin all other mechanics like combos, gliding, just to WASTE 2 BUTTONS to switch faster 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted June 28, 2019 Author Share Posted June 28, 2019 6 hours ago, Maka.Bones said: Yeah, we did actually ask for a change to melee Be more specific...yes we do need a change to melee but what we have now(and again i mean phase 1 not they entirety of melee rework) is not it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted June 28, 2019 Author Share Posted June 28, 2019 40 minutes ago, Aldain said: Always a good sign when a thread starts with a question that assumes the answer. Was that necessary?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Schobii564 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 I agree with pretty much everything you said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 4 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: I'm not twisting the update to make to look entirelynegative...i read some good feedback on in the melee 2.9 feedback thread and they're not happy Yes, you are. Things like calling out how the Right-mouse combos look ugly when they've not visually changed any more than the rest of the system. There wasn't a change there, and you made it out as negative. Even taking into account the whole system, it's aesthetics. Purely subjective. And the 2.9 feedback thread is extremely toxic that has a good chunk of the same people ranting about it over and over. I've been attacked on there for daring to say anything even remotely positive about 2.9. Take its opinion with a pinch of salt. 5 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: Look what i'm trying to say is...is a faster switch mechanic a good thing in the game? Of course...but it ruined other things...i think they made blcoking automatic because they didn't know where to put it...a dumb move...it's weird because we now have a button that zoom switches to your ranged weapon on the fly...and a button that shoots your ranged weapons on the fly Like...why have both?...aren't we fast enough? Was it necessary? This part I do agree with, but you're acting like the whole system needs to be slashed and burned because of this when all it needs is block back where it belongs. Maybe with another option to pull the gun back out, like on double-tap or X (reload). That fixes the negative change whilst keeping the positive ones. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaarnaaarne Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 It is true that people often get too toxic in the feedback topic, however there are certain critical issues in 2.9 that have gone completely unaddressed. However, it should be kept in mind that part of the reason the same things are said over and over again is because those are the issues and there hasn't been any answer or even just acknowledgement from DE in regards to them, so people just don't have any choice except to keep the thread afloat and beat that drum. Honestly, it's all down to right click being wholly unsuitable to being a switch weapon button instead of simply retaining its own function. I personally would say that the quick switch without firing button that would work best is Reload (well, just not immediately starting to reload, obviously). RMB is simply too critical to melee combo inputs and causes a huge number of issues and disorientation if it also switches a weapon instead of just letting you do one thing properly. It's not even the need for manual block (would be nice, I'd say, but not critical), it's the switching that's the problem with RMB and melee combos right now. (Second main issue I'd say is really just melee momentum, but that was nerfed covertly well before 2.9 so it's more of a related problem) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaTiO3 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 12 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: Now i'm not saying i speak on behalf of warframe players...but i speak on behalf of warframe players Interesting... Also a bunch of people *did* ask for a rework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hopper_Orouk Posted June 28, 2019 Author Share Posted June 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, CaTiO3 said: Interesting... Also a bunch of people *did* ask for a rework. like i said before...yes a lot of people did...i did...i love melee in warframe...melee 3.0 was my most anticipated update what i meant was...how many people asked for what we've got? most specifically wasting 3 buttons for instant holster while throwing everything else away? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 16 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: Did any of you actually wanted the faster switch mechanic? Yes we did. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikelh Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Loza03 said: This part I do agree with, but you're acting like the whole system needs to be slashed and burned because of this when all it needs is block back where it belongs. Maybe with another option to pull the gun back out, like on double-tap or X (reload). That fixes the negative change whilst keeping the positive ones. It needs block back where it belongs, weapon switching needs to be separated from other functions (and as a result quick melee returned for when we don't want to unequip our scanners and fishing/mining gear to deal with one nuisance), and melee needs to be a seperate mode again because that offers more available input options to name just a few of the problems with 2.9. Instant switch would be fine but just put it back on a weapon switch key. Just having the 3 weapons cycle and removing the switch animation lock would have been a far superior option. The directional ground slam is about the only positive change it made from a mechanics standpoint in my eyes. So only MOST of the whole new system needs to be slashed and burned. However I'm not opposed to the new system being an additional optional control scheme. Having a toggle for that would let people have the best of both worlds. Edited June 28, 2019 by Sikelh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 33 minutes ago, Sikelh said: weapon switching needs to be separated from other functions (and as a result quick melee returned for when we don't want to unequip our scanners and fishing/mining gear to deal with one nuisance), and melee needs to be a seperate mode again because that offers more available input options to name just a few of the problems with 2.9. Why? What problems does the current system actually cause that are flaws with the actual system and not with the outdated, pre-movement 2.0 stance system, or the aforementioned auto-block? Especially since putting block back where it belongs would remove most 'putting melee away accidentally' problems. The only reason I've seen quick melee be seen as preferable is because it didn't interrupt movement, which is being addressed as part of the 3.0 stances if Iron Staff and official statements are anything to go by. Stances have always provided additional effects and damage, and the preview of the new system certainly retains that to some degree (obviously, it's just one stance, so full generalisations can't be made), with the newfound choice between smooth movement and those additional effects. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)haphazardlynamed Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) DE too busy cranking out 'new content' updates that make money to bother spending time on fixing broken things. Reworking an entire melee system was getting too time consuming, and DE realized that money made from new players coming in for Jovian Concord and Railjack hype would offset any upset player losses from leaving a half-finished melee 2.9. So they re-prioritized for those projects instead. A finished melee3.0 is probably going to be pushed back forever; so long as the New Reskins Hype marketing model holds up (and it probably will) Edited June 29, 2019 by (PS4)haphazardlynamed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George_PPS Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 On 2019-06-27 at 5:22 PM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: Did any of you actually wanted the faster switch mechanic?...no? Will you probably didn't mind...but do you mind removing your choice to block completely and make channeling -a mechanic that takes your energy when used- a toggle? Do you realize how useless holster mods are now?...you don't even need to switch between primary and secondary when you can clip the switching animation with the faster melee switch button I think they made blocking automatic because they didn't know where to put it... After what? 3 months of silence?...what can we possibly expect from phase 2? It took me only a week to get used to this melee 2.999, and it has been GREAT. Fast Switch? It makes the game play and switching between melee and guns much faster. This has also produced some new synergies between certain guns and melee builds. Holster mods? It's like given a free holster mod on all melee, What's not to like? Automatic blocking? This makes all frames more tanky if one is in melee mode in air and moving. It's great too. As for next, I hope DE can retain the best parts of melee 2.999 like all of the above and also improve on combo key bindings. And keep the effectiveness of slide attack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Zweimander Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 Holster mods felt like a massive waste and I am glad they changed all the things they did honestly. Aside from energy drain on holstered exalted weapons keeping up while you don't even have them out that is. Now if part 2 nerfs range mods and the range of melee in general to mediocre levels and the zenistar as a result of it I will NOT be happy. Lets hope that they keep all the good range weapons intact and just buff the other melee's in that regard. Their will be massive backlash if they make any changes far to radical like the values on range mods, DE knows this and if they decide to make radical changes they will never hear the end of it. I like my Zeni with a riven for it's nice utility and constant passive damage and so help me if that becomes less effective... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)Sk0rp1on Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 On 2019-06-27 at 5:22 PM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said: Before anyone says "this is phase one they're going to fix all the problems"...NO! This is not how phases work...you don't make a phase that destroyed half of melee and non melee applications in a game then release a phase 2 to fix phase 1...that's just dumb.. This is exactly how phases work. It may not be happening fast enough, but making little changes and then evaluating is a pretty normal way to update software. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaarnaaarne Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Well there's been plenty of time to evaluate, and the little changes needed (or alternatively rollback before fixes can be made) are obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
000l000 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) Le 28/06/2019 à 02:22, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk a dit : Now i'm not saying i speak on behalf of warframe players...but i speak on behalf of warframe players when i say that this change did more harm than good... Before anyone says "this is phase one they're going to fix all the problems"...NO! This is not how phases work...you don't make a phase that destroyed half of melee and non melee applications in a game then release a phase 2 to fix phase 1...that's just dumb....they had months to fix and undo all the issues...but they went silent... Now let me explain... Did any of you actually wanted the faster switch mechanic?...no? Will you probably didn't mind...but do you mind removing your choice to block completely and make channeling -a mechanic that takes your energy when used- a toggle? Do you realize how useless holster mods are now?...you don't even need to switch between primary and secondary when you can clip the switching animation with the faster melee switch button I think they made blocking automatic because they didn't know where to put it... I mean..we now have a button that zoom switches to our ranged weapon on the fly...and one to shoot switch our ranged weapon on the fly...like why have 2 buttons to swtich from melee? Aren't we fast enough? Do you really need 2 buttons 2 babysit us? Do you also realize that they semi nerfed valkyr because you can risk accidentally equipping your primary weapon while in hysteria? How slam attacks are now broken ragdoll machines? Did you know that before, we had a slam that causes enemy knockdown? An actuall usefull slam that i can use? How ugly the combos are now with aim+attack combo? (Even more clunky with wukong combos post rework...the aim/switch button just ruins the combos) What worries me is that...it's kind of too late at the moment ...they spent time and effort on adding this stuff...they won't undo it After what? 3 months of silence?...what can we possibly expect from phase 2? ...they unpinned melee rework feedback thread...which gives me all kinds of worries... Either 1.they finished melee 3.0 and do not need any more feedback 2.they realized they can't fix all problems that they've caused with this update and just decided they're going to ignore phase 1 and drop phase 2 anyway So yea that's it...i guess we should wait after tenno con and see what happens Unless they waited all this time to reveal the complete melee 3.0 at tenno con...which is not worth ignoring your player's feedback completely for months... Thank you. No offense but you are speaking on behalf of no one. Your feedback is perfeclty valuable though but don't think you're part of the majority or anything to give weight to your own opinion - that's just intellectually dishonest and most certainly wrong - especially since the majority isn't necessarily right if you're lucky enough to be part of it. Tons of players are playing Warframe on a daily basis and only a dozen will at least read your thread. You didn't even get why some things have been changed, autoblock for example has been removed cause really few players were actually using (or even enjoying) it, DE isn't balancing a game for a minority of niche players - if some features aren't used, they have to go away. I don't think that holster mods are a decent argument either, who was actually using these in the first place anyway ? And as opposed to what you said, switching from primary to secondary is still a thing. And yes personally i'm glad we can switch to melee in a flash now, i won't have to rely upon some clunky command to get rid of a nullifier while i'm using a melee weapon anymore, and i can melee while shooting which is way more fluent now. We got you don't like it but don't think this changes were made without a single reason - If you think that people working at DE are dumb and you're the genius here, maybe you should start to work on your own game, not sure i'll play it though. Edited July 1, 2019 by 000l000 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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