Can't lvl archguns in Sanctuary because gearwheel

[Oreades]

This kinda fits multiple categories so I guess general covers them all.

So never really had much desire to forma my Arch gear past 1-2 forma (before it was "cool") but recently in anticipation of Railjack (I don't remember what the new name is) I decided to toss in a few extra forma, Didn't just want to level them on Hydron cause it's surprisingly slow and that one place on Neptune(?) Celacia(?) didn't seem super attractive. So I started lvling them passivly while grinding relics and when that got a bit dull I figured "Hey I can totally lvl them while I try to grind those whatever weapon components in Sanctuary" 

Problem is the second I hit the gear wheel to drop in my Arch Gun, the glaring flaw in that plan was evident in the form of Simaris chastising me for trying to use the gear wheel. 

That limitation being added well before there was anything relevant to leveling the zone (EG Archwing didn't apply where as heavy weapons do)

 

Soooooo, yeah that's a thing that sorta feels like it should probably addressed somehow? Cause It just seems strange you can't level you heavy guns in SO/ESO

[GinKenshin]

this is hardly a problem, the SOs aren't the only place to level something. just go hydron or whatever, 15-20 waves+smeeta+a team and you should be good, it's hardly what you call 'slow' 

[Oreades]

56 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

this is hardly a problem, the SOs aren't the only place to level something. just go hydron or whatever, 15-20 waves+smeeta+a team and you should be good, it's hardly what you call 'slow' 

No it's strait up a problem, it is a glaring oversite in the leveling mechanics of the game to lock any weapon out of any applicable leveling environment. 

 

Can I shoot stuff in the face in Sanctuary Onslaught [y/n]?

• Yes you can. With any weapon you please as there is no weapon restriction on Sanctuary Onslaught

Is there any specific weapon mutator for Sanctuary Onslaught [y/n]?

• No there is not. Again there is no weapon restrictive mutator on Onslaught. The restriction with the Gear wheel was put in place functionally to deal with Energy Pads since those where everyone's Goto for completely circumventing the games energy economy system. Which is why DE locked it out because they knew that people who where crying for a challenge lacked the self control to not spam 100,000,000,000 energy pads per mission. Tho that aspect was functionally mitigated either via Zenurik or with highly energy efficient builds specifically for Onslaught that can weather the ~2min between Portals with ease. 

 

The exception to that rule is Sortie missions with specific weapon class mutators (EG Melee only) where DE has already made concessions for Exalted weapons but clearly doesn't want any and every frame to just be able to nope out of the restriction. As such the Launchers are locked out of those missions for obvious and very specific reasons. EG Is the Archgun a Melee weapon [y/n]? No it is not, clearly locked out along with every other non Melee weapon. 

 

The fact that Archguns are lumped in with the blanket ban on Gear wheel items in one of the best weapon leveling environments is only by proxy of the arcane launcher mechanic DE decided to run with coupled with a blanket ban they implemented before the Archgun launcher was ever a thing. Right now not a lot of people are gonna give a single space fart about that but when Railjack rolls in that's going to change and people are going to be leveling their Archguns and they're going to run into the same scenario where their choices boil down to 

1. Hydron
2. Cylacia 
3. Spy Vaults
4. and Gee, I never bothered to get those weapon drops from ESO and ESO is great for leveling I'll go level my Archgun there.... *Nope in Cephalon*.... good talk Simaris..... 
5. Hopefully Railjack? but who heccin knows.

Cause I'm not sure if you've noticed but Warframe is significantly more enjoyable when you're multitasking to several of your goals at once instead of hammering your face into a single goal. I'm looking at you Auger Secrets and your super unfun availability rotation, you wanted to do something else, NOPE you're farming Auger Secrets for the next ~2hrs but that is an issue for another feedback thread that I think I've already posted *Vanishes into a cloud of smoke*

[xXDeadsinxX]

Then level it somewhere else, it’s really just that simple.

[--RV--Dopekoke]

Archwing weapons arent normal weapons, they require outside assistance like the launcher to get it.  In the simulacrum, its just a simulation so you can do whatever you want, but simaris wants to do a stress test with players not using the gear wheel.  Theres nothing to fix or add. 

Like what others have said, level it somewhere else, at least we have the option to level it anywhere unlike before where we only had archwing levels to level them.  Be grateful we have that option.

[Oreades]

While I'm certainly going to go somewhere else in the interim to level these weapons because I'm not going to wait for however long it takes for some action to be taken if it ever is. Simply rolling over and going somewhere else without pointing out the issue is doing little more than grasping tightly to the status quo and embracing mediocrity for all it's worth. 

 

2 hours ago, --RV--Dopekoke said:

Archwing weapons arent normal weapons, they require outside assistance like the launcher to get it.  In the simulacrum, its just a simulation so you can do whatever you want, but simaris wants to do a stress test with players not using the gear wheel.  Theres nothing to fix or add. 

Like what others have said, level it somewhere else, at least we have the option to level it anywhere unlike before where we only had archwing levels to level them.  Be grateful we have that option.

 

Simaris doesn't want anything Simaris is nothing more than a plotpoint for a developer decision. 

A decision made because DE wanted to block people from using Energy pads because their playerbase is incapable of self control but lets explore probable reasons they blocked the entire gear wheel rather than just consumables? I mean that's pretty simple.....

1. It was far easier to just block the entire gear wheel rather than scripting either a white or black list for gear wheel items individually. 
2. Even if they had they likely felt the player base couldn't handle a gear wheel that allowed limited selection of some items but not other items. 
3. When that decision was made there was no gear wheel item that made sense to use outside of those being blocked. Fishing poles? Useless, Mining lasers, useless, Scanners, nope. No other interactable held any significance that they weren't expressly attempting to shut down (Read: Energy pads) 

Since then they have added a gear wheel item that warrants reconsideration of their previous decision to simply chuck the gearwheel as a whole, alternatively a reassessment of how the Launcher interface works. Technically speaking there is no reason the Launcher needs to be appended to the gearwheel at all, It could just as easily be attached to a quick button like the Operator tho the reason they might not go that rout would be mapping issues on controllers.

 

tl;dr

Before they where simply chucking the bathwater there was no baby and thus no issue, then they added a baby to the mix and continue to chuck the bath water, baby and all. 

 

[(PSN)Onder6099]

In your case: “Salacia isn’t attractive”, I will wait how Railjack will really look like and then I will make decision between to Formae or not Formae. IMO, Melees are more effective then Archguns in AW missions.

Edited June 30, 2019 by (PS4)Onder6099

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

In your case: “Salacia isn’t attractive”, I will wait how Railjack will really look like and then I will make decision between to Formae or not Formae. IMO, Melees are more effective then Archguns in AW missions.

This is my sentiment too. I'm gonna wait to see if they make Arch weapons relevant or not for Railjack before I decided how and where to level them. 

[ShortCat]

14 hours ago, Oreades said:

-snip-

There are several reasons for it:

• ESO should not rewards any EXP. In Warframe EXP is tied to enemy level, as such it is natural that high level (or "endgame") content will yield more net gain. However, the point of high level nodes is not to level gear, but to provide players with a challange. Even if DE would introduce a lvl 200 planet next week, players will alienate it into leveling playground. There is a fundamental problem how we acquire EXP in Warframe. 
• DE realy often abolishe their initial designes. Not long ago, your complaint about AW weapons in ESO could not exist, because we could not use those weapons outside of AW game modes in the first place. The introduction of Gravimag and its acces via gear wheel directly contradict ESO rules. Or in other words, either they forgot about it, or they do not care about it.

[Oreades]

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

There are several reasons for it:

• ESO should not rewards any EXP. In Warframe EXP is tied to enemy level, as such it is natural that high level (or "endgame") content will yield more net gain. However, the point of high level nodes is not to level gear, but to provide players with a challange. Even if DE would introduce a lvl 200 planet next week, players will alienate it into leveling playground. There is a fundamental problem how we acquire EXP in Warframe. 

On the first point, I'm gonna have to firmly disagree.Because as much as people say they want "challenge" there are two problems with that. 

1. Do you like dead content? Cause stripping away all progression and reward from "end game/challenging" content is how you get dead content. When people say "I want a challenge" what they mean is "I want rewards that I can schadenfreude over other people not being able to get". You might be able to keep those people sated with a big enough brass ring at the end of the grind but you remove forward progress for the time invested for everyone else and the bulk of the games Millions of players are going to drop that content because there is no return on time invested for them. Again, congratulations you've just added dead content to the game that isn't going to give DE a return on the development time invested. 
2. The people who say they want challenge can get the challenge they claim to want in the game right now, they just need to have the self control to not redline their builds. They lack that self control as is evidenced by the need to strip access to the gear wheel so they can't simply sidestep the games energy economy with a single consumable. Their lack of self control is the reason this issue is a problem at all. 

And when I say it's about the rewards, you need look no farther than the fact that when a "The old void key system was better" thread pops up the one consistent argument is "Because I loved spending hours in T4 Void Survival"..... as if the higher level Void survival went anywhere, it didn't. It's still in the game, they can still play it for hours as there is literally nothing stopping them. The only difference is the rewards and they choose not to play it. Instead clamoring for the reintroduction of a system that was worse than the system we have now in every meaningful way. 

Which is another example I can tie back to the sentiments people are exhibiting towards the notion of improving the idea of taking the logical step to allow Archguns in SO/ESO. DE could have very well looked at the old Void Key system and said "This is good enough, if they are bored with that then they can always play something else" but they didn't. They took the time to improve the system. The Void was great when it came out but the honeymoon period had long since run it's course and it was outmoded they could have clung to mediocrity because it just worked but they chose to expand on the idea because they could make it better. All without ditching the Void in the process. 

 

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

• DE realy often abolishe their initial designes. Not long ago, your complaint about AW weapons in ESO could not exist, because we could not use those weapons outside of AW game modes in the first place. The introduction of Gravimag and its acces via gear wheel directly contradict ESO rules. Or in other words, either they forgot about it, or they do not care about it.

Yes not too long ago my complaint couldn't exist, thats kind of the whole point here. It didn't exist then but it does exist now. The fact that it didn't exist in the past is irrelevant. 

My guess as to why they wouldn't have taken the time to figure out how to deal with the ESO issue when they introduced them is that they probably 

• Couldn't decide how to key map them in a way that would work for controllers.
• They weren't sure how popular Archguns would be and in fairness I still don't think they are terribly popular compared to every other weapon due to their wonky ammo mechanic. Tho that doesn't preclude them from being a valid ground based weapon now.
• There might have been some concern that Archguns would be OP at launch but to be honest other than being a bit of distracting fun there are scores of standard weapons that arguably outperform Archguns and don't suffer from the "no ammo"/cooldown mechanic. So that concern while possibly relevant at the time, not so much in the longrun. 

So I'd wager that SO and ESO came up probably briefly but much in the way it was easier to simply block the whole wheel instead of coming up with a complicated white/black list for wheel items they opted for the path of least resistance given Archguns lackluster popularity and questionable future in the game. 

Since then they have also added Archgun Rivens and are poised to release what appears to be an Archwing-centric game mode that is likely to drive up their popularity. So it's safe to say that they are continuing to integrate Archguns further as valid/viable weapons within the game. Making the initial decision to pass over SO/ESO integration even more glaring as time passes. 

 

As far as a solution that might work without an immediate and significant overhaul. Adding a conditional to SO/ESO that Spawns/Despawns the players Archgun when the player attempts to use the gear wheel if an Archgun Launcher and selected Archgun are present. Otherwise giving you the standard "I've disabled your gearwheel message" 

That would at least be a quick stopgap and function as long as they don't add anymore applicable gearwheel weapons in the future. Tho in the long run it might behoove them to overhaul how the gearwheel interactions in SO/ESO operate entirely so it truncates items that are not whitelisted. Shorter lists and you don't have to worry about a new unintended item slipping through, had the issue with TF2 Prophunt where every time a new weapon was added to TF2 it took them some time to blacklist it and until that happened the weapon was free to run amok in Prophunt, always wondered why they didn't run a whitelist. That way when you attempted to access the Gearwheel with an applicable Gravimag Launcher and equipped Archgun, it would ONLY display the Archgun Launcher instead of the comprehensive gearwheel. Definitely more complicated but gives them some future proofing. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Oreades

[THE_ZEEK]

they should actually make it so that no entry with weapons and frames that are not maxed. problem solved.. will save many a people wanting to play SO more likely to play in stead of carrying one or more players leveling their stuff..

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, THE_ZEEK said:

they should actually make it so that no entry with weapons and frames that are not maxed. problem solved.. will save many a people wanting to play SO more likely to play in stead of carrying one or more players leveling their stuff..

No, that a very silly idea for multiple reasons. I don't need 3 maxed weapons to carry you. And an unranked frame or weapon getting its umpteenth forma, in the hands of a higher ranked player will always outclass the same weapon, at level 30 without a potato or forma. 

Same goes for frames. But in their case, you have to unlock the abilities, and they get upgrades as you level up to 30, so there's at least some valid reason to lock out unranked frames. 

[Rythiman]

I mean by the logic we should be able to level Archwing and K-Drive in the Sanctuary Onslaught as well...

[Test-995]

4 minutes ago, Rythiman said:

I mean by the logic we should be able to level Archwing and K-Drive in the Sanctuary Onslaught as well...

Honestly this, we are awaiting for archwing onslaught.

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, Rythiman said:

I mean by the logic we should be able to level Archwing and K-Drive in the Sanctuary Onslaught as well...

Nice reach.... but.... K-Drives and Archwing are only available in open world content as there is no open world Onslaught they are not applicable. 

I've honestly been waiting longer than I expected for someone to try to append vehicles in some way shape and or form. 

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

10 hours ago, ShortCat said:

ESO should not rewards any EXP. In Warframe EXP is tied to enemy level, as such it is natural that high level (or "endgame") content will yield more net gain. However, the point of high level nodes is not to level gear, but to provide players with a challange. Even if DE would introduce a lvl 200 planet next week, players will alienate it into leveling playground. There is a fundamental problem how we acquire EXP in Warframe. 

Unless Affinity is removed from its interaction with focus this is not possible, The mode i was meant to be a focus farm and without affinity it cant complete that goal as of now. I would be down for this as it would remove the people leaving early and making it more difficult to make it to zone 8 though, Hydron is for leveling and ESO should stay out of it so we can atleast agree on that. Do understand it is not as simple as removing affinity from the mode though and maybe come up with an alternative system for you to get your focus from maybe? Either way Swaz Do La.

[ShortCat]

14 hours ago, Oreades said:

-snip-

I am kinda baffled by your replay.
First of all, neither am I asking for "endgame", nor for better rewards in said missions. I just say, that there is a problem in EXP acquisition in Warframe and explain why right here...

16 hours ago, ShortCat said:

the point of high level nodes is not to level gear, but to provide players with a challange. Even if DE would introduce a lvl 200 planet next week, players will alienate it into leveling playground. There is a fundamental problem how we acquire EXP in Warframe. 

Second, I outright agree with you, that the situation with ESO and AW weapons is like you describe, right here...

16 hours ago, ShortCat said:

The introduction of Gravimag and its acces via gear wheel directly contradict ESO rules. Or in other words, either they forgot about it, or they do not care about it.

Why this hostility?

 

5 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Unless Affinity is removed from its interaction with focus this is not possible,

By not possible, I suppose you mean a change to EXP acquisition? In this case, there should not be a problem, because the whole concept of EXP could remain, just not be as focused on killing enemies. More fundamental question is: should Focus be tied to EXP in the first place? In my opinion, the whole Focus thingy is incredibly lacklustur and could use another draft, but this topic would derail the thread.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

I would be down for this as it would remove the people leaving early and making it more difficult to make it to zone 8 though,

Yep. That's what I ment by leveling playground.

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by ShortCat

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

19 hours ago, ShortCat said:

DE realy often abolishe their initial designes. Not long ago, your complaint about AW weapons in ESO could not exist, because we could not use those weapons outside of AW game modes in the first place. The introduction of Gravimag and its acces via gear wheel directly contradict ESO rules. Or in other words, either they forgot about it, or they do not care about it.

Emphasis added. 

That part is seeming, wrong. Archwings existed as gear deployable items before ESO came into being. We were never allowed to deploy those either. 

Do you think that everyone wouldn't have loved to hover in mid-air and let a Saryn level them for us? 

ESO rules are fairly simple: kill as fast as you can. No using gear. No overuse of abilities. Pick up golden sparkley bits. 

[Steel_Rook]

Frankly, I find Sanctuary Onslaught itself to be terrible for the game overall. It's the most reductive, most stripped-down version of a combat system which - let's face it - isn't that compelling on its own in the first place. It's a worse version of Nephilem Rifts, and an example of what happens when you remove every bit of presentation from a game, leaving just the bare-bones min/maxing. It limits build variety, promotes repetitive gameplay and exposes the shallowness of design which is normally at least somewhat covered by presentation. On its face, it would be harmless as not that many find that appealing. However, with high rewards attached to it, plenty of people who don't enjoy "the game, minus the fun" but feel compelled to participate for the progression.

People are always going to congregate to the most efficient progression path, because people will optimise all the fun out of a game if you let them. It's a developer's job to ensure that said most efficient path is also the most long-term entertaining one, and ESO ain't it.

[THE_ZEEK]

14 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No, that a very silly idea for multiple reasons. I don't need 3 maxed weapons to carry you. And an unranked frame or weapon getting its umpteenth forma, in the hands of a higher ranked player will always outclass the same weapon, at level 30 without a potato or forma. 

Same goes for frames. But in their case, you have to unlock the abilities, and they get upgrades as you level up to 30, so there's at least some valid reason to lock out unranked frames. 

Lets agree not to agree.. The point is that SO is being used by too many players just to rank up gear, a buffed hydron so to speak..

This is not good for gameplay and also with the carebear stance for light players of DE there should be some places that should be offlimit for leveling up stuff.

 

SO//ESO// Sorties

Edited July 1, 2019 by THE_ZEEK

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

19 minutes ago, THE_ZEEK said:

Lets agree not to agree.. The point is that SO is being used by too many players just to rank up gear, a buffed hydron so to speak..

This is not good for gameplay and also with the carebear stance for light players of DE there should be some places that should be offlimit for leveling up stuff.

 

SO//ESO// Sorties

That's the point of the mode. The problem is not unranked gear or levelling stuff up. The only problem is that some people think that they can flat out not contribute, or that using the unranked gear is the best option, instead of killing as quickly as they can. 

We need a grand total of one piece of good gear at a time for Sanctuary Onslaught to pitch in. That might be the frame, or a weapon. Everyone gets affinity from it. 

For elite Sanctuary Onslaught, we need two pieces of good gear, because we can't always count on the frame's abilities. That leaves me with multiple slots not in use. 

 

I could take nothing in those slots, and still contribute just as much. So why on Earth would you feel that me taking unranked gear in those slots is a problem? 

 

[THE_ZEEK]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

That's the point of the mode. The problem is not unranked gear or levelling stuff up. The only problem is that some people think that they can flat out not contribute, or that using the unranked gear is the best option, instead of killing as quickly as they can. 

We need a grand total of one piece of good gear at a time for Sanctuary Onslaught to pitch in. That might be the frame, or a weapon. Everyone gets affinity from it. 

For elite Sanctuary Onslaught, we need two pieces of good gear, because we can't always count on the frame's abilities. That leaves me with multiple slots not in use. 

 

I could take nothing in those slots, and still contribute just as much. So why on Earth would you feel that me taking unranked gear in those slots is a problem? 

 

Because it leads to abuse for leveling up stuff.. it leads to too many players just taxiing their way through.. You as an experienced player set the bar.. You are the example for starting players.. SO if its ok for you to level up stuff with a Maxed Nuke.. then why shouldn't they with a squishy frame.. as they are not experienced and are NOT contributing or even just leeching with no scruples .

So to avoid any of it.. NO maxed weapons or frames = NO playing the SO // ESO // SORTIE.

Have all weapons AND Frame on 30 before you could enter..

Like i said before.. I disagree with your opinion. but that's just the way i think about it..

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

29 minutes ago, THE_ZEEK said:

Because it leads to abuse for leveling up stuff.. it leads to too many players just taxiing their way through.. You as an experienced player set the bar.. You are the example for starting players.. SO if its ok for you to level up stuff with a Maxed Nuke.. then why shouldn't they with a squishy frame.. as they are not experienced and are NOT contributing or even just leeching with no scruples .

So to avoid any of it.. NO maxed weapons or frames = NO playing the SO // ESO // SORTIE.

Have all weapons AND Frame on 30 before you could enter.

☝️ That is not sensible.

Even on Hydron in an unleveled frame, I always carry at least one powerful weapon. In SO, you'll see me do the same, but typically I have a good frame too. In ESO we already have to carry a fully ranked frame. 

Again, in many of those cases, you'll find that the items I'm carrying are have a potato and multiple formas. That unleveled weapon will out damage a level 30 version without the potato and any forma, and my frames might start off weaker, but sometimes finish a lot stronger in a single run than a level 30 without the enhancements. By your standards, lots of people carrying 'level 30 gear' shouldn't be allowed to join me in my 'unprepared' state. 😂

Even your "have all weapons and frame at level 30" is displaying a lack of understanding of the game you are playing. If you fill every weapon slot, Mesa suffers. Since there are no containers to bust open, there's no significant reason to take a melee weapon into the Sanctuary. 

So if it's okay to go without a weapon, or take one that's disadvantageous to the goal, then taking one that's not going to affect my ability to deal damage, has to be fine with you. 

 

Either way, you have a very simple solution to the problem you're facing, of not being able force others to play the way you want them to. Recruit a squad of people who agree to do what you want. 

[Oreades]

10 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I am kinda baffled by your replay.
First of all, neither am I asking for "endgame", nor for better rewards in said missions. I just say, that there is a problem in EXP acquisition in Warframe and explain why right here...

What you said was that it shouldn't' reward Affinity, only Focus. To decouple the difficulty of the mission from the XP progression. That isn't how players work I even gave you a specific example from this very game as to that happens when you strip perceived rewards from a game mode/mission. Progression is no different and there is nothing wrong with how Warframe handles its Affinity progression. 

Real talk, if the Focus gains weren't as broken in the rest of the game (something that I'd hoped they would address instead they added SO/ESO) even fewer people would bother with SO/ESO. Leaving the Focus gains as is and stripping away the Affinity progression....and you're looking at Conclave 2.0. People are already giving up all of their general loot drops and frankly the Focus gains aren't even that great in SO/ESO since they nerfed them. If memory serves Pre-nerf it took me ~4 runs to round 8 to max my Focus gains for the day, these days I couldn't tell you because I don't bother with any seriousness. 

Personally speaking if it hadn't been for randomly remembering I needed the weapons drops in ESO coupled with actually having something to level.... plus sorta kinda thinking about maybe trying to unlock the last Focus node I actually give a quarter hecc about.. I would have kept diligently ignoring that SO and ESO even exist because the best way to deal with the Focus slog for me..... has been to just ignore that Focus exists. It was literally the perfect storm of happenstance that had me even considering SO/ESO for anything and then "...... right it blocks the gear wheel.... but that makes no sense.... cause Archguns are something you can level and relevant to the format of SO/ESO...."

In short Warframe is at it's best when you are multitasking and conversely at it's worst when you are singularly focused. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Oreades

[THE_ZEEK]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

Either way, you have a very simple solution to the problem you're facing, of not being able force others to play the way you want them to. Recruit a squad of people who agree to do what you want. 

I am not looking for a solution.. I just disagree with you and think that SO // ESO and Sorties should only be played with maxed weapons and frames..