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On 2019-07-04 at 4:07 AM, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

As I said to another user previously, for a game to improve all its aspects must be improved (without consequences), even if they are small aspects (they are all important), they should be improved as much as possible and in this case the gore is one of them, besides, the gore has ALWAYS been part of the combat system of the games (not only of Warframe) but people only see it as a visual aspect, and yes, the visual is very important in the gore but that only It is a part that shapes it, and that is one of the reasons why there are not many games with good gore systems. It should be noted that the gore system of warframe is quite regular (neither good nor bad) but even if it was good , I would not be satisfied knowing that you can improve even more.

Complexity is not the same thing as improvement-in fact, it's pretty common that making something more complex makes it worse while making something less complex makes it better. Your theorized gore system would add an immense amount of complexity to each enemy and to all enemy design, with all the processing and manpower costs that entails, but in fact take away from the game. It literally becomes 'take a certain subset of "low-gore" weapons for stealth missions or "low-gore" missions then take "high-gore" weapons for everything else.' At which point... what's even the point? You could literally get the exact same net effect on the player by simply arbitrarily disabling certain weapons in certain mission types.

There are "not many games with good gore systems" because very few games have a need, or desire, for hyper-complex NPC injury systems. In Warframe's case, a hyper-complex NPC injury system is bad because:

  • It doesn't actually fit with the lore. We know that medical technology in the Orokin era is good enough that wounds can be healed in combat time, which is why Infested Healers, for example, give significant DR to nearby Infested. It's entirely lore-compliant for weapons to be powerful enough and medical tech good enough that enemies function at 100% until dead.
  • It doesn't actually fit with the gameplay style. Warframe's a game where you kill thousands and thousands of enemies in an hour. Complex enemy interaction systems when you're supposed to be killing an enemy a second are wasted system resources.
  • The level of effort needed to implement this for every enemy would drastically balloon the difficulty in making new enemies. Most of the games with complex gore systems have like, a handful of enemies period. Warframe has four enemy factions, each with very different basic enemies and each with a plethora of 'advanced' enemies. Giving each of these enemies multiple 'gore' textures and bumpmaps and meshes would mean that the devs would need to put in ridiculous amounts of work for, again, not very much gain.

This is why Warframe had something like your 'gore system' back in 2013, where you could shoot off Infested arms and legs and that changed their behavior, but deliberately removed it. Because it was a bunch of system resources being used for basically no reason.

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En 8/7/2019 a las 4:37, Leyvonne dijo:

Usually when people want gore turned off they want it turned off completely and not just turned into rainbows and glitter. I have no issue with lots of gore in games where I think it belongs (Mortal Kombat and horror games for example), but Warframe isn't one of those games. Not every game needs guts and blood flying everywhere to be good, interesting and fun.

 

En 8/7/2019 a las 5:43, Loza03 dijo:

Er, yes. That's what 'turning off gore' means. Turning it off, not turning it into rainbows.

 

En 8/7/2019 a las 6:56, Tsukinoki dijo:

And what if people actually want to turn it off.
As in disable the body parts flying everywhere and actually disable the blood instead of just having every enemy explode into rainbow colors when killed.

That is what is generally meant by "disabling gore".

Look: I have zero problems with gore where it belongs (MK and such) but I don't want to be showered in gore 24/7 with absolutely zero way to turn it off or mitigate it in some fashion.

 Your ideas turn gore into a main cornerstone of the game, which means that it becomes impossible to disable...which isn't a good idea and shouldn't be done.

I would rather resort to censor the gore and not eliminate it when they disable it, because Warframe is supposed to be a game that contains violence as well as Mortal Kombat, Dead Space, etc., that is, I know that there are people who do not like gore, but they have to understand that they are not playing games like Tetris that does not contain violence for obvious reasons

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En 8/7/2019 a las 5:43, Loza03 dijo:

Those videos are demonstration videos of gore systems. Demonstrations won't convince me considering the core problems with implementing this. I need actual reasons why it would help, and those reasons include 'How would this work for people who turn the gore off.'

 

En 8/7/2019 a las 5:43, Loza03 dijo:

Saying "It adds logic" and "If it can be improved, it must be." is something I disagree with. You have yet to convince me otherwise.

 

En 8/7/2019 a las 6:56, Tsukinoki dijo:

Small tip here "logic" and "reasons" isn't actually a reason...or a logic.
You have completely failed to actually define what it would bring to teh game and why people would want it.
The most you've said is "logic" and it looking cool....but what actual benefits will the game get from having it?  How will it benefit people?

You also have to explain how it would benefit people that have gore turned off, as a system with this wide reaching of consequences needs to benefit everyone.

What I am suggesting would make things more logical, detailed, adaptive, dynamic, creative, challenging, etc. for reasons I mentioned earlier

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En 8/7/2019 a las 6:56, Tsukinoki dijo:

Basically what this sounds like is "Turn every enemy into a massive bullet sponge where you have to treat each and every one of them like necromorphs!"
I don't think that would do well in a game like warframe, which is much closer to a dynasty warriors like game than deadspace.
I mean, it wouldn't be enjoyable to have to slog through 300+ enemies in an exterminate knowing that you can't just kill them quickly and instead have to spend time disabling them slowly.

 That is much to slow paced for a game like warframe.

 

En 8/7/2019 a las 6:56, Tsukinoki dijo:

Yes, I am aware of what limb damage is...but the thing is that every game that uses it has a much higher TTK than warframe.
So unless you are tying to say "Every last enemy in the game needs to have their TTK raised to 15+ seconds!" then I don't see how this would be useful, or beneficial to the game.

Look, please tell me how your pain system and limb damage system would work if I just wipe out an entire room in a single attack.
How would that system come into play?
Or would it essentially be wasted dev time and effort to implement and fix, because no one would actually experience the system?

Incorrect ... what I am suggesting fixes the problem of "Bullet sponges" (which is one of the problems that contains Warframe and other games) because it will divide the health bar / shield / armor of the enemies in different sections (limbs) and add points weak / strong to those sections, which will make things more fun, more challenging, more dynamic, less repetitive, and will increase the TTK which will fix the problem of fast pace or low TTK (or whatever you want to call it) which is another the problems that this game contains because it makes things less challenging and more boring

Example: Imagine fighting an Eidolon without damage to the limbs, no weak / strong points and no subsystem of pain, in case you do not know that would make the battle more boring and less challenging

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En 8/7/2019 a las 6:56, Tsukinoki dijo:

Please tell me: What games have core mechanics that are based around gore and body horror that aren't horror games (and I mean games where it 100% matters about gore, not just for the spectacle but actually has mechanical changes to the game).
And then please tell me which of those games are in the same genera that Warframe is in.

I can understand wanting the spectacle of gore, but the simple fact is that there simply isn't any reason to have a cornerstone of the game be "gore and how it affects everything!".  And all of your videos show off "Here's some gorey systems and how they work!!!!" without once actually describing how it would be beneficial.

Definitely you are not paying attention ... and answering your question, Fallout, PUBG, Metal Gear Rising are some examples, and as I mentioned before (in another comment), the gore has always been linked to the game's combat system, mechanically and visually

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En 8/7/2019 a las 14:17, MJ12 dijo:

It literally becomes 'take a certain subset of "low-gore" weapons for stealth missions or "low-gore" missions then take "high-gore" weapons for everything else.' At which point... what's even the point? You could literally get the exact same net effect on the player by simply arbitrarily disabling certain weapons in certain mission types.

As mentioned earlier in another comment, obviously your weaponry will influence the way you do gore, because it is not the same what a submachine gun can do to what a sniper rifle can do, but your way of playing will also have a lot of influence on that, that is, if you want to do a lot of gore then prove it and if you want to do little gore also prove it, it should be noted that the gore meter and the weak and strong points of the limbs (which are in the topic) will also have their influence on that.

En 8/7/2019 a las 14:17, MJ12 dijo:

It doesn't actually fit with the lore. We know that medical technology in the Orokin era is good enough that wounds can be healed in combat time, which is why Infested Healers, for example, give significant DR to nearby Infested. It's entirely lore-compliant for weapons to be powerful enough and medical tech good enough that enemies function at 100% until dead.

Basically you are telling me that the regeneration of the enemies is so fast that they do not receive wounds in their limbs when they receive an attack, where is the logic in that ?, the only ways that they do not receive wounds, would be if they dodge the attack, divert the attack, or if their bodies are immune to damage, in addition, how are you going to heal or regenerate something that is not damaged?

En 8/7/2019 a las 14:17, MJ12 dijo:

doesn't actually fit with the gameplay style. Warframe's a game where you kill thousands and thousands of enemies in an hour. Complex enemy interaction systems when you're supposed to be killing an enemy a second are wasted system resources.

That game style is a big problem, and I'll tell you why, just imagine fighting an eidolon and that he does not have the damage to the extremities implemented, does not have weak / strong points and subsystem of pain, in case you do not know, that it would make things less dynamic, easier, more boring and faster than it would obviously be wrong, while damage to the extremities, weak / strong points and the subsystem of pain fix those problems and improve the combat system

En 8/7/2019 a las 14:17, MJ12 dijo:

The level of effort needed to implement this for every enemy would drastically balloon the difficulty in making new enemies. Most of the games with complex gore systems have like, a handful of enemies period. Warframe has four enemy factions, each with very different basic enemies and each with a plethora of 'advanced' enemies. Giving each of these enemies multiple 'gore' textures and bumpmaps and meshes would mean that the devs would need to put in ridiculous amounts of work for, again, not very much gain.

I am aware that this would involve more work, but I am also aware that this would improve things in the game for reasons that I think I do not have to repeat

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

 

 

I would rather resort to censor the gore and not eliminate it when they disable it, because Warframe is supposed to be a game that contains violence as well as Mortal Kombat, Dead Space, etc., that is, I know that there are people who do not like gore, but they have to understand that they are not playing games like Tetris that does not contain violence for obvious reasons

And what about people who are fine with the current amount of gore, but wouldn't want the excess amount that you are suggesting? Disbale gore means it is gone, not just censored no matter how much you'd rahter have it work like that.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

 

 

I would rather resort to censor the gore and not eliminate it when they disable it, because Warframe is supposed to be a game that contains violence as well as Mortal Kombat, Dead Space, etc., that is, I know that there are people who do not like gore, but they have to understand that they are not playing games like Tetris that does not contain violence for obvious reasons

That's your opinion. One evidently not shared by the devs since they added a way to remove gore in the first place.

And besides, violent games and gore are not concepts that rely on each other. Otherwise Kirby would be one of the goriest games ever. Even Devil May Cry is pretty light on gore, and that's full of violence. Well, except maybe 5, but even then the blood and the people it comes from are generally pretty far removed from each other.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

 

 

What I am suggesting would make things more logical, detailed, adaptive, dynamic, creative, challenging, etc. for reasons I mentioned earlier

So, in response to us pointing out your argument is unconvincing and flawed, you repeat the argument. 

I'm all for more of these things, but the amount that a gore system of this magnitude would add would be small at the best of times, and marginal in the presence of overwhelming damage output and mass damage/CC with no downsides. These are the problems that need to be addressed.

1 minute ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

ncorrect ... what I am suggesting fixes the problem of "Bullet sponges" (which is one of the problems that contains Warframe and other games) because it will divide the health bar / shield / armor of the enemies in different sections (limbs) and add points weak / strong to those sections, which will make things more fun, more challenging, more dynamic, less repetitive, and will increase the TTK which will fix the problem of fast pace or low TTK (or whatever you want to call it) which is another the problems that this game contains because it makes things less challenging and more boring

Example: Imagine fighting an Eidolon without damage to the limbs, no weak / strong points and no subsystem of pain, in case you do not know that would make the battle more boring and less challenging

As much as I find it interesting to have enemies which get weaker over time... it's usually pretty poor game design that leads to unfulfilling fights that go out not with a bang but a whimper.

Plus this means that big wall enemies are even easier to disregard than before because you don't even need to take out their full HP bar. Without any challenges in the game already when you can choose to delete the whole room, become immortal or disable everything's AI, that just removes one of the few things that could be called difficult.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Definitely you are not paying attention ... and answering your question, Fallout, PUBG, Metal Gear Rising are some examples, and as I mentioned before (in another comment), the gore has always been linked to the game's combat system, mechanically and visually

All of those games rely on 1v1 engagements, especially with the VATS system in Fallout. Even MGR has group fights of no more than four or five goons, which you usually engage one at a time. Warframe, on the other hand, is more like Dynasty Warriors or DOOM or Halo with fights of 4 or 5 enemies being standard, except with an even greater emphasis on horde. That's the identity of the game and has been for a while. You might disagree with that style, but that's the style that Warframe's been packing for a while now. And with the new player intro cinematic, they're leaning into it as hard as ever, with Tenno wreaking havoc across an entire battlefield.

1-4 vs many is Warframe's identity and MO. Doing something antithetical to that is a minefield.

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I think you're digging in the wrong direction.

It shouldn't be about amount of the gore. It should be about gameplay implications. I feel really frustrated when you have to hit a high-level enemy a million times if you brought a low-level weapon. But what if every weapon had this additional chance-based system, that could determine what type of damage would you inflict?

Like, with swords you could cut enemy's hand, greatly reducing his combat capabilities, no matter how high-level he is. Or just cut him open, so he starts to bleed really bad - but not like now, when enemy just loses health after time. Make him stand in one place, because he can't stop the blood, so he starts to miss more - and that decision would also solve some problems with armor scaling and enemy scaling overall.

Of course, this idea should be thought out properly, but my point is - game should be more action and less RPG. When high-level enemies are just mindless bullet sponges, it's no fun at all. But if you still could take them down - with proper set of actions - it would be more interesting, I think.

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  • 2 weeks later...
En 10/7/2019 a las 6:28, Loza03 dijo:

That's your opinion. One evidently not shared by the devs since they added a way to remove gore in the first place.

And besides, violent games and gore are not concepts that rely on each other. Otherwise Kirby would be one of the goriest games ever. Even Devil May Cry is pretty light on gore, and that's full of violence. Well, except maybe 5, but even then the blood and the people it comes from are generally pretty far removed from each other.

Usually, cartoon-style games (like Kirby) contain less gore and realistic-style games (like Devil May Cry) contain more although there are always exceptions, and the fact that players can censor gore seems fine to me ( it doesn't affect what I'm suggesting) but obviously it won't be the same

En 10/7/2019 a las 6:28, Loza03 dijo:

As much as I find it interesting to have enemies which get weaker over time... it's usually pretty poor game design that leads to unfulfilling fights that go out not with a bang but a whimper.

Plus this means that big wall enemies are even easier to disregard than before because you don't even need to take out their full HP bar. Without any challenges in the game already when you can choose to delete the whole room, become immortal or disable everything's AI, that just removes one of the few things that could be called difficult.

In fact ... you are wrong, a poor design are bullet sponges (it makes things less challenging, less dynamic, more repetitive, etc.) being a current problem that contains Warframe and other games, but one of the things I am suggesting (limb damage) fix that problem, in addition to making battles against enemies no longer so fast and making players less likely to ignore enemies (although that is an option) assuming enemies would no longer be easy to beat

En 10/7/2019 a las 6:28, Loza03 dijo:

All of those games rely on 1v1 engagements, especially with the VATS system in Fallout. Even MGR has group fights of no more than four or five goons, which you usually engage one at a time. Warframe, on the other hand, is more like Dynasty Warriors or DOOM or Halo with fights of 4 or 5 enemies being standard, except with an even greater emphasis on horde. That's the identity of the game and has been for a while. You might disagree with that style, but that's the style that Warframe's been packing for a while now. And with the new player intro cinematic, they're leaning into it as hard as ever, with Tenno wreaking havoc across an entire battlefield.

1-4 vs many is Warframe's identity and MO. Doing something antithetical to that is a minefield.

Nothing I am suggesting affects the number of enemies, in fact, it improves it by making battles less repetitive and likewise improving the quality of enemies by making battles more dynamic.

 

Note: sorry for replying so late

Edited by (PS4)StationOfDead
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En 17/7/2019 a las 15:12, BloodRavenCap dijo:

It shouldn't be about amount of the gore. It should be about gameplay implications. I feel really frustrated when you have to hit a high-level enemy a million times if you brought a low-level weapon. But what if every weapon had this additional chance-based system, that could determine what type of damage would you inflict?

first, sorry for responding so late and second, the strengths / weaknesses of the limbs are not a chance-based system, rather they are a skill-based system because it challenges players to be more precise and effective in battles, a Exemplary is the enemy Nox, since to cause more damage to him you have to attack him in the head but if you attack another of his limbs you will do less damage, another example is the tusk thumpers because you have to attack a specific area of his legs to hurt them but if you attack another limb you won't hurt him

 

En 17/7/2019 a las 15:12, BloodRavenCap dijo:

Like, with swords you could cut enemy's hand, greatly reducing his combat capabilities, no matter how high-level he is. Or just cut him open, so he starts to bleed really bad - but not like now, when enemy just loses health after time. Make him stand in one place, because he can't stop the blood, so he starts to miss more - and that decision would also solve some problems with armor scaling and enemy scaling overall.

Each limb will have different qualities and different health / armor / shield bars on the enemies, so by destroying one of those limbs that could have negative or positive effects on the enemies (pain subsystem) which would change the course of the battle in a few seconds

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9 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Usually, cartoon-style games (like Kirby) contain less gore and realistic-style games (like Devil May Cry) contain more although there are always exceptions, and the fact that players can censor gore seems fine to me ( it doesn't affect what I'm suggesting) but obviously it won't be the same

You're right, there are exceptions. This game is one of them, since the developers have evidently taken steps to ensure that players do not have to engage with gore if they don't want to.

Why should that change? What purpose does it serve? And why should it change vast amounts of gameplay?

10 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

In fact ... you are wrong, a poor design are bullet sponges (it makes things less challenging, less dynamic, more repetitive, etc.) being a current problem that contains Warframe and other games, but one of the things I am suggesting (limb damage) fix that problem, in addition to making battles against enemies no longer so fast and making players less likely to ignore enemies (although that is an option) assuming enemies would no longer be easy to beat

Either this system will make individual enemies more important, or it will make supposedly 'dangerous' enemies even more easy to disregard because they can be disabled. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

If all enemies are brought up in power, then it will slow down the game considerably and necessitate large-scale redesigns of frames and systems, since now the player has to individually encounter and deal with every enemy in a squad instead of engaging the squad as a whole. If they aren't but this system is implemented, 'heavy' enemies are brought down and made laughable since they can be made irrelevant even without the game's questionably balanced abilities.

Not to mention, as I've pointed out, the game has (very intentionally) been made faster over time and has done well with it. Reversing this is not a good decision

10 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Nothing I am suggesting affects the number of enemies, in fact, it improves it by making battles less repetitive and likewise improving the quality of enemies by making battles more dynamic.

It wouldn't necessarily make things more dynamic. If anything, it'd make encounters more repetitive. You've suggested making individual enemies more complex. That means that individual enemies will have more in-depth ways to take them down. That sounds like it'd make combat more dynamic, having to change tactics on the fly, but it really just limits the player to jumping through hoops.

What makes gameplay less repetitive is opening up opportunities for a wide variety of combat scenarios to encounter and fight. That's not done by making all enemies an individual puzzle, that's done by making each enemy a possible piece in a larger puzzle. Consider for a moment Doom 2016. All the enemies serve different purposes to some degree - Hell knights serve as high-priority enemies that deliver constant pressure, whilst Pinkies have a danger level that peaks and troughs constantly, and both the above are tuned for close-quarters combat. Meanwhile, Cacao Demons play air support, Mancubuses effectively act as area denial with mid-ranged pressure, and Imps keep their distance and strike from afar, acting more like snipers when in a group to punish you from standing still in the wrong place. Alone, all these enemies are simple and easy to deal with, it's them in combination that create that challenge and dynamism in the engagement. Depending on the environment and the exact mixing of enemies, many considerably different encounters can be designed. Imps and Hell Knights are a completely different encounter in an wide, open, level area to what they are in a confined space with high and low ground, and both those become another matter entirely when you add a Mancubus.

 Making each enemy a complex encounter in and of themselves makes that impossible - you'll either overwhelm the player trying to implement the individual strategies needed to beat each target making the game frustrating, or turn the game into a gauntlet of running through the same motions over and over by design instead of accidentally ending up there with poorly future-proofed ability design. Even in games that do have enemies that are puzzles like that (such as bloodgoyles in DMC), they usually are encounters in and of themselves and/or are used with a very limited scope, for this reason. Enemy simplicity puts focus on the whole, and lets that whole shine.

You can even see this with one of your demonstration videos - Killing Floor 2. The dismemberment doesn't kick in until after the enemy is dead in most cases - it doesn't actually affect the overall gameplay, or does so only minimally (activating a 'berserk' mode for example) in order to make enemies more simple, and thus much easier for the designers to put them all in a room together, as well as for players to deal with said room.

There are games make enemies that are individually complex work, but they're designed around that. Warframe isn't one of those games.

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  • 3 weeks later...
En 28/7/2019 a las 13:03, Loza03 dijo:

You're right, there are exceptions. This game is one of them, since the developers have evidently taken steps to ensure that players do not have to engage with gore if they don't want to.

Why should that change? What purpose does it serve? And why should it change vast amounts of gameplay?

No, WF is no exception, but the fact that you can deactivate the gore is it, and there is no problem with that, players who deactivate the gore will only have a different visual experience

En 28/7/2019 a las 13:03, Loza03 dijo:

Either this system will make individual enemies more important, or it will make supposedly 'dangerous' enemies even more easy to disregard because they can be disabled. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

It's about strategy, the enemies are going to be harder to beat, so players will have to know where to attack them so they can weaken and eliminate them

En 28/7/2019 a las 13:03, Loza03 dijo:

If all enemies are brought up in power, then it will slow down the game considerably and necessitate large-scale redesigns of frames and systems, since now the player has to individually encounter and deal with every enemy in a squad instead of engaging the squad as a whole. If they aren't but this system is implemented, 'heavy' enemies are brought down and made laughable since they can be made irrelevant even without the game's questionably balanced abilities.

Not to mention, as I've pointed out, the game has (very intentionally) been made faster over time and has done well with it. Reversing this is not a good decision

The fact that players can easily eliminate 10 enemies in less than 10 seconds is a bad design, an example is Dynasty Warriors, the game is not challenging and is repetitive while games like Dead Space or Fallout 4 improve those terms

En 28/7/2019 a las 13:03, Loza03 dijo:

It wouldn't necessarily make things more dynamic. If anything, it'd make encounters more repetitive. You've suggested making individual enemies more complex. That means that individual enemies will have more in-depth ways to take them down. That sounds like it'd make combat more dynamic, having to change tactics on the fly, but it really just limits the player to jumping through hoops.

 

What I am suggesting makes things less repetitive and more dynamic, how? Each enemy will have their weak / strong points which will make players have to be more calculating when attacking, each enemy will have different health bars / shield / armor according to their limbs, which will make enemies more difficult to defeat, each limb will have different qualities, which will make players have to be more strategic, etc., and something repetitive is the Dynasty Warriors combat system

En 28/7/2019 a las 13:03, Loza03 dijo:

What makes gameplay less repetitive is opening up opportunities for a wide variety of combat scenarios to encounter and fight. That's not done by making all enemies an individual puzzle, that's done by making each enemy a possible piece in a larger puzzle. Consider for a moment Doom 2016. All the enemies serve different purposes to some degree - Hell knights serve as high-priority enemies that deliver constant pressure, whilst Pinkies have a danger level that peaks and troughs constantly, and both the above are tuned for close-quarters combat. Meanwhile, Cacao Demons play air support, Mancubuses effectively act as area denial with mid-ranged pressure, and Imps keep their distance and strike from afar, acting more like snipers when in a group to punish you from standing still in the wrong place. Alone, all these enemies are simple and easy to deal with, it's them in combination that create that challenge and dynamism in the engagement. Depending on the environment and the exact mixing of enemies, many considerably different encounters can be designed. Imps and Hell Knights are a completely different encounter in an wide, open, level area to what they are in a confined space with high and low ground, and both those become another matter entirely when you add a Mancubus.

 Making each enemy a complex encounter in and of themselves makes that impossible - you'll either overwhelm the player trying to implement the individual strategies needed to beat each target making the game frustrating, or turn the game into a gauntlet of running through the same motions over and over by design instead of accidentally ending up there with poorly future-proofed ability design. Even in games that do have enemies that are puzzles like that (such as bloodgoyles in DMC), they usually are encounters in and of themselves and/or are used with a very limited scope, for this reason. Enemy simplicity puts focus on the whole, and lets that whole shine.

You can even see this with one of your demonstration videos - Killing Floor 2. The dismemberment doesn't kick in until after the enemy is dead in most cases - it doesn't actually affect the overall gameplay, or does so only minimally (activating a 'berserk' mode for example) in order to make enemies more simple, and thus much easier for the designers to put them all in a room together, as well as for players to deal with said room.

There are games make enemies that are individually complex work, but they're designed around that. Warframe isn't one of those games.

The variety of the NPCs is a point that this game has to improve, but I already mentioned that in another topic, and so you know what I am suggesting improves the variety, how? each enemy will have different weak / strong points even if they are enemies of the same type, each enemy will have different health bars / shield / armor according to their limbs, each enemy will have different reactions to pain, etc., and something with no variety is the Dynasty Warrios combat system...

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Le 01/07/2019 à 12:33, (PS4)StationOfDead a dit :

Gore-based missions:
As the name implies, these are missions that will be based on gore levels

 

No I don't like it, it's obvious to me your a troll right now, there's no way forcing people in different gore levels they don't want too isn't trolling.

If somehow you're not a troll (would be miraculous but hey) There's a new Doom game coming out soon to respond to anything you're trying to change warframe into.

Go play that :)
 

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59 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

No, WF is no exception, but the fact that you can deactivate the gore is it, and there is no problem with that, players who deactivate the gore will only have a different visual experience

Unless your change that necessitates gore go through. When everyone will have to experience some level of gore.

1 hour ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

It's about strategy, the enemies are going to be harder to beat, so players will have to know where to attack them so they can weaken and eliminate them

So, the former option. The whole game needs to be redesigned around slow gameplay.

1 hour ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

The fact that players can easily eliminate 10 enemies in less than 10 seconds is a bad design, an example is Dynasty Warriors, the game is not challenging and is repetitive while games like Dead Space or Fallout 4 improve those terms

Is that so?

Evidently you've not been fighting a captain whilst two different mission-critical objectives on opposite sides of the battlefield are being attacked at the same time. The challenge of Dynasty Warriors isn't the combat, it's actually the tactical deployment thereof - the fact that, despite being a larger-then-life figure, you must deal with something larger still.

Is that the specific route Warframe should go down? Maybe, maybe not. You need to bear in mind that there isn't just one way games are designed. Warframe's a fast-paced, freeform action game with RPG elements. Fallout is an RPG with action elements, and Dead Space is a Horror game. Mixing and Matching mechanics without taking into account the genres is what leads to situations like this. You wouldn't put the Duck Tales pogo into Braid would you?

1 hour ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

What I am suggesting makes things less repetitive and more dynamic, how? Each enemy will have their weak / strong points which will make players have to be more calculating when attacking, each enemy will have different health bars / shield / armor according to their limbs, which will make enemies more difficult to defeat, each limb will have different qualities, which will make players have to be more strategic, etc., and something repetitive is the Dynasty Warriors combat system

As I point out - no, that isn't what would actually happen. It just turns each enemy into a strict sequence of events, meaning that more fluid game design becomes impossible because the player has to do the specific thing every time they see an enemy. That doesn't work for every game.

Dynasty Warriors combat become repetitive because it only actually has two or three enemy types. Aside from the fact that isn't the avenue in which Dynasty Warriors presents it's gameplay variety, Warframe has plenty of enemies it could use in the more DOOM-style, but doesn't.

1 hour ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

The variety of the NPCs is a point that this game has to improve, but I already mentioned that in another topic, and so you know what I am suggesting improves the variety, how? each enemy will have different weak / strong points even if they are enemies of the same type, each enemy will have different health bars / shield / armor according to their limbs, each enemy will have different reactions to pain, etc., and something with no variety is the Dynasty Warrios combat system...

And DOOM?

What about DOOM? Since that was the item of discussion I would expect a reason why you don't agree based on that, instead of another game which is also built very differently. DOOM offers lots of variety in combat despite its simple enemies.

Not to mention, again - some of your own examples do the same thing. Making their enemies simpler on purpose for a better play experience when engaging more than one.

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En 17/8/2019 a las 6:28, AkyFenrir dijo:

No I don't like it, it's obvious to me your a troll right now, there's no way forcing people in different gore levels they don't want too isn't trolling.

If somehow you're not a troll (would be miraculous but hey) There's a new Doom game coming out soon to respond to anything you're trying to change warframe into.

Go play that 🙂

If you want to censor (turn off) the gore is your decision, but keep in mind that you will not have the same visual experience, and I ask you, why would you be surprised to see gore after killing more than one enemy or seeing someone do it?

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En 17/8/2019 a las 6:49, Loza03 dijo:

So, the former option. The whole game needs to be redesigned around slow gameplay.

 

En 17/8/2019 a las 6:49, Loza03 dijo:

Is that so?

Evidently you've not been fighting a captain whilst two different mission-critical objectives on opposite sides of the battlefield are being attacked at the same time. The challenge of Dynasty Warriors isn't the combat, it's actually the tactical deployment thereof - the fact that, despite being a larger-then-life figure, you must deal with something larger still.

Is that the specific route Warframe should go down? Maybe, maybe not. You need to bear in mind that there isn't just one way games are designed. Warframe's a fast-paced, freeform action game with RPG elements. Fallout is an RPG with action elements, and Dead Space is a Horror game. Mixing and Matching mechanics without taking into account the genres is what leads to situations like this. You wouldn't put the Duck Tales pogo into Braid would you?

 

En 17/8/2019 a las 6:49, Loza03 dijo:

As I point out - no, that isn't what would actually happen. It just turns each enemy into a strict sequence of events, meaning that more fluid game design becomes impossible because the player has to do the specific thing every time they see an enemy. That doesn't work for every game.

Dynasty Warriors combat become repetitive because it only actually has two or three enemy types. Aside from the fact that isn't the avenue in which Dynasty Warriors presents it's gameplay variety, Warframe has plenty of enemies it could use in the more DOOM-style, but doesn't.

 

En 17/8/2019 a las 6:49, Loza03 dijo:

And DOOM?

What about DOOM? Since that was the item of discussion I would expect a reason why you don't agree based on that, instead of another game which is also built very differently. DOOM offers lots of variety in combat despite its simple enemies.

Not to mention, again - some of your own examples do the same thing. Making their enemies simpler on purpose for a better play experience when engaging more than one.

Pay attention, the Dynasty warriors combat system is not only bad and uncreative because of the small variety of enemy types, but also because of the modeling of each enemy, that is, each enemy has only one health bar in its entire structure what makes things less challenging because the enemies are easy to eliminate and become bullet sponges, no enemy has weak points or strong points in its structure which makes things less dynamic because there is no difference in whether you attack the leg or head of an enemy, no enemy changes its behavior when one of its limbs is attacked which makes things less strategic, sadly Dynasty Warriors is not the only game with that problem, Doom also has that problem, why do you think the game is It looks so easy and repetitive even at the high difficult level ?, so Warframe should never make a combat system like Dynasty Warriors, besides, what I'm suggesting apply to any concept or category of a game, an example of this is Fallout 4 and Dead space, one is about adventure while the other is about terror, it should be noted that the pacing of a game is determined by the movement that is given to the players in the game

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il y a 2 minutes, (PS4)StationOfDead a dit :

If you want to censor (turn off) the gore is your decision, but keep in mind that you will not have the same visual experience, and I ask you, why would you be surprised to see gore after killing more than one enemy or seeing someone do it?

You're the one suggesting different rewards based on visual gore levels... There's no point to it if it can be deactivated making all you said worhtless?

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Le 01/07/2019 à 14:31, Marine027 a dit :

For me the OP, what i read out of it, seems like those small kiddies who enjoy gore like in Mortal Kombat or so and see it as the onyl way to show the game is "adult" enough, because gore and blood is so effective to show things apperently for them, you know, the graphic peopole who only enjoy a game for its graphics instead of its gameplay.

I don't think gore is "adult" enough as you said. Pretty much some immature stuff these days, quite common too. For my part i've always found extra gore quite ridiculous (then funnier than scarier material) and i'm pretty sure than Gore contents are targeting young audiences instead of old people like me. 😅

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3 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

 

 

 

Pay attention, the Dynasty warriors combat system is not only bad and uncreative because of the small variety of enemy types, but also because of the modeling of each enemy, that is, each enemy has only one health bar in its entire structure what makes things less challenging because the enemies are easy to eliminate and become bullet sponges, no enemy has weak points or strong points in its structure which makes things less dynamic because there is no difference in whether you attack the leg or head of an enemy, no enemy changes its behavior when one of its limbs is attacked which makes things less strategic, sadly Dynasty Warriors is not the only game with that problem, Doom also has that problem, why do you think the game is It looks so easy and repetitive even at the high difficult level ?, so Warframe should never make a combat system like Dynasty Warriors, besides, what I'm suggesting apply to any concept or category of a game, an example of this is Fallout 4 and Dead space, one is about adventure while the other is about terror, it should be noted that the pacing of a game is determined by the movement that is given to the players in the game

Have you actually played DOOM? Because that game manages to avoid being repetitive quite nicely, through effectively combining enemy types and environments to form the ebb and flow of levels, ranging from blood-pumping power fantasy moments where you charge down weaker foes to more back-foot encounters where you are literally dropped into and have to think on your feet to survive, along with countless other combinations. Emergence - a set of simple individual parts can make a much more complex whole. DMC also achieves this, alongside many other games that don't use systems like these.

Your whole argument is built on the idea that there's only one way to design enemies - dynamic weak points. Thing is, that's completely wrong. It's one way, yes, but that one way isn't the only way. It does work for some games - usually more slower-paced ones or games which involve heavier emphasis on single-targets. Horror games are also a good place for this - you mentioned Dead Space, which heavily worked this into it's world as well.

But Warframe is none of these, and in some cases never was. I've mentioned Metal Gear Rising before, and that's a fast-paced action  game that has this. And, being honest, nobody makes use of the dynamic limb weaknesses in that game. That's because doing so slows down the pace. The game isn't a horror game, it's a power fantasy about being a badass super warrior ninja man. Same goes for Warframe. Warframe is a fast-paced action game that focuses on fluidity and speedy motion, dashing from fight to fight. This change focuses on slow takedowns of single targets.

This change turns Warframe into Dead Space or Fallout. Warframe is not Dead Space or Fallout.

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En 23/8/2019 a las 4:04, AkyFenrir dijo:

You're the one suggesting different rewards based on visual gore levels... There's no point to it if it can be deactivated making all you said worhtless?

When you turn off the gore, only the visual part is censored and I guess I don't have to explain what the visual is, besides, the rewards are linked to your gore meter that is determined by how efficient and stealthy you are by eliminating enemies

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En 23/8/2019 a las 9:19, Loza03 dijo:

Have you actually played DOOM? Because that game manages to avoid being repetitive quite nicely, through effectively combining enemy types and environments to form the ebb and flow of levels, ranging from blood-pumping power fantasy moments where you charge down weaker foes to more back-foot encounters where you are literally dropped into and have to think on your feet to survive, along with countless other combinations. Emergence - a set of simple individual parts can make a much more complex whole. DMC also achieves this, alongside many other games that don't use systems like these.

Your whole argument is built on the idea that there's only one way to design enemies - dynamic weak points. Thing is, that's completely wrong. It's one way, yes, but that one way isn't the only way. It does work for some games - usually more slower-paced ones or games which involve heavier emphasis on single-targets. Horror games are also a good place for this - you mentioned Dead Space, which heavily worked this into it's world as well.

But Warframe is none of these, and in some cases never was. I've mentioned Metal Gear Rising before, and that's a fast-paced action  game that has this. And, being honest, nobody makes use of the dynamic limb weaknesses in that game. That's because doing so slows down the pace. The game isn't a horror game, it's a power fantasy about being a badass super warrior ninja man. Same goes for Warframe. Warframe is a fast-paced action game that focuses on fluidity and speedy motion, dashing from fight to fight. This change focuses on slow takedowns of single targets.

This change turns Warframe into Dead Space or Fallout. Warframe is not Dead Space or Fallout

You can't make a game's combat system simple and repetitive or that will make players get bored and complain about how easy it is, as I mentioned before Dynasty Warriors and Doom's combat system are bad designs, and I think I do not have to repeat the reasons again, you can play in any type of difficulty and the combat will continue to be easy and repetitive, in addition, what determines if a game is fast or slow pace is the movement system, if Warframe or Assassin's Creed did not have parkour they would be considered slow-paced games, it should be noted that what I am suggesting is not only based on the dynamic weak and strong points

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1 minute ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

You can't make a game's combat system simple and repetitive or that will make players get bored and complain about how easy it is, as I mentioned before Dynasty Warriors and Doom's combat system are bad designs, and I think I do not have to repeat the reasons again, you can play in any type of difficulty and the combat will continue to be easy and repetitive,

You say this, but 'Killing Floor 2', one of the games you've cited as what Warframe should be living up to, works on such a system. Of the enemies demonstrated in that demo of yours, most are incredibly simple - just walk up and melee you, like Warframe. These include extremely basic ones intended to be fought in a horde, one that changes this up with a pounce, a couple that have projectiles they fire off whilst approaching (at long range and at mid range). The most complex are the ones that will berserker you when hit.

Again: Emergence. Simple parts, put together the right way, make a vastly more complex whole.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

what determines if a game is fast or slow pace is the movement system, if Warframe or Assassin's Creed did not have parkour they would be considered slow-paced games, it should be noted that what I am suggesting is not only based on the dynamic weak and strong points

Oh really? Then how come people describe Warframe's own defence modes as 'slow paced'? Pacing is every element of the game, how fast or slow elements of a given encounter are introduced, and the rate at which the player engages with the environment.

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En 28/8/2019 a las 5:56, Loza03 dijo:

You say this, but 'Killing Floor 2', one of the games you've cited as what Warframe should be living up to, works on such a system. Of the enemies demonstrated in that demo of yours, most are incredibly simple - just walk up and melee you, like Warframe. These include extremely basic ones intended to be fought in a horde, one that changes this up with a pounce, a couple that have projectiles they fire off whilst approaching (at long range and at mid range). The most complex are the ones that will berserker you when hit.

Again: Emergence. Simple parts, put together the right way, make a vastly more complex whole.

I cited Killing Floor 2 for its gore system not for its combat system, why do you think KF2 is so easy after playing a few hours? because the combat is simple and that makes the game easy, if the combat design is simple you will see boredom rise and the hordes of enemies will not fix that because the combat is the problem

En 28/8/2019 a las 5:56, Loza03 dijo:

Oh really? Then how come people describe Warframe's own defence modes as 'slow paced'? Pacing is every element of the game, how fast or slow elements of a given encounter are introduced, and the rate at which the player engages with the environment.

Missions can vary between slow or fast pace, that is, an assault mission is not the same as a capture mission and the same happens with other environments but the fluidity of the game will be determined by the movement system
 

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55 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

cited Killing Floor 2 for its gore system not for its combat system, why do you think KF2 is so easy after playing a few hours? because the combat is simple and that makes the game easy, if the combat design is simple you will see boredom rise and the hordes of enemies will not fix that because the combat is the problem

I've not played it, so I can't verify your claim.

But ask yourself this: If dynamic limbs and other Dead Space or Fallout combat tropes was the only way to make a good, complex action combat system, why do so many incredibly critically acclaimed titles not incorporate it? Including action games. 

In other words, is this suggestion objectively the best way to make a combat system, or is this the way you prefer combat systems to be handled? Because there's nothing wrong with the second one until you start demanding it be put into games where it doesn't belong. Like you're doing now.

 

This kind of combat doesn't belong in Warframe outside of specific case scenarios. Warframe is a fast-paced game. This would immensely slow the pace down. Alternatively, it would even further push people away from precision weapons and towards explosives and AoE, and away from Melee since you can't aim your swings. It would inevitably change the game for the worse since the game wasn't built for this kind of combat.

1 hour ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Missions can vary between slow or fast pace, that is, an assault mission is not the same as a capture mission and the same happens with other environments but the fluidity of the game will be determined by the movement system
 

No, it can also be affected by all the systems, and how well they gel together. For example, an incredibly fast and freeform movement system and a very precise, slow combat system that practically requires you to stop and take aim for a few seconds per shot. Those don't mix.

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