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Let's talk about Gore & Combat system

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En 6/9/2019 a las 10:34, Loza03 dijo:

've not played it, so I can't verify your claim.

But ask yourself this: If dynamic limbs and other Dead Space or Fallout combat tropes was the only way to make a good, complex action combat system, why do so many incredibly critically acclaimed titles not incorporate it? Including action games. 

In other words, is this suggestion objectively the best way to make a combat system, or is this the way you prefer combat systems to be handled? Because there's nothing wrong with the second one until you start demanding it be put into games where it doesn't belong. Like you're doing now

It's not the same to play checkers as chess, do you understand? Some developers think that simplicity is the answer to everything and they are very wrong, simplicity must always go hand in hand with complexity, simple combat systems are weak while that the complexes are better but the simple ones are easier to do and that is why the developers adopt it knowing the problems that entails, many complain about Saryn but she is not the problem, the problem is the combat system.

 

En 6/9/2019 a las 10:34, Loza03 dijo:

This kind of combat doesn't belong in Warframe outside of specific case scenarios. Warframe is a fast-paced game. This would immensely slow the pace down. Alternatively, it would even further push people away from precision weapons and towards explosives and AoE, and away from Melee since you can't aim your swings. It would inevitably change the game for the worse since the game wasn't built for this kind of combat.

 

En 6/9/2019 a las 10:34, Loza03 dijo:

No, it can also be affected by all the systems, and how well they gel together. For example, an incredibly fast and freeform movement system and a very precise, slow combat system that practically requires you to stop and take aim for a few seconds per shot. Those don't mix.

You are wrong, the combat systems are made to be slow-paced because otherwise they would not be entertaining and the same happens with the missions, in addition the elements of fast pace and slow pace can live together but I think that I do not have to explain, the pace of a game depends on several factors as you have said, each factor has different rhythms, some are fast-paced and others slow-paced

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1 minute ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

It's not the same to play checkers as chess, do you understand? Some developers think that simplicity is the answer to everything and they are very wrong, simplicity must always go hand in hand with complexity, simple combat systems are weak while that the complexes are better but the simple ones are easier to do and that is why the developers adopt it knowing the problems that entails, many complain about Saryn but she is not the problem, the problem is the combat system.

You're right. It IS different to play checkers as chess. We are all playing chess, you want to play checkers.

Are you quite sure this game doesn't have any complexity? Or is it buried beneath poor choices like Saryn? Because, taking the Grineer for example, there's about 21 different enemy types you're likely to encounter in a starchart mission. And let's assume that the average room has 10 enemies in it once in an alerted status. That's about 30,045,015 possible enemy combinations. Admittedly, many of those are very similar combinations, but the fact remains, that's a lot of different fights that can be had. Now, consider how Fallout or Dead Space games work. Unless dealing with a much less complex enemy, you'll typically be engaging with one or two, from what I've seen. Maybe 3 if you're in a difficult encounter. Assuming all enemies make the transition for Warframe, the number of possible encounters drops to 1771. Several orders of magnitude lower, and again, not all of those are statistically all that different. Now, that works for Dead Space and Fallout because for the former, it's a horror game designed for one playthrough, and for the latter because Combat is only a part of the overall experience.

Like I said before: Emergence. Just because individual pieces are simplistic, doesn't mean the overall product is. In Warframe's case, we must look to what's making the emergence not happen. In this case - the ability design. Not just Saryn's, either. Hell, as far as I'm aware, Saryn is the least of the worries. She generally requires more engagement than, say, Volt.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

You are wrong, the combat systems are made to be slow-paced because otherwise they would not be entertaining and the same happens with the missions, in addition the elements of fast pace and slow pace can live together but I think that I do not have to explain, the pace of a game depends on several factors as you have said, each factor has different rhythms, some are fast-paced and others slow-paced

Individual parts yes, but two different parts of the core gameplay must be in sync. Fast movement and slow combat don't sync. The core gameplay must be well-designed and well put-together before you can deviate from the established pacing.

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En 1/10/2019 a las 6:36, Loza03 dijo:

You're right. It IS different to play checkers as chess. We are all playing chess, you want to play checkers.

Are you quite sure this game doesn't have any complexity? Or is it buried beneath poor choices like Saryn? Because, taking the Grineer for example, there's about 21 different enemy types you're likely to encounter in a starchart mission. And let's assume that the average room has 10 enemies in it once in an alerted status. That's about 30,045,015 possible enemy combinations. Admittedly, many of those are very similar combinations, but the fact remains, that's a lot of different fights that can be had. Now, consider how Fallout or Dead Space games work. Unless dealing with a much less complex enemy, you'll typically be engaging with one or two, from what I've seen. Maybe 3 if you're in a difficult encounter. Assuming all enemies make the transition for Warframe, the number of possible encounters drops to 1771. Several orders of magnitude lower, and again, not all of those are statistically all that different. Now, that works for Dead Space and Fallout because for the former, it's a horror game designed for one playthrough, and for the latter because Combat is only a part of the overall experience.

Like I said before: Emergence. Just because individual pieces are simplistic, doesn't mean the overall product is. In Warframe's case, we must look to what's making the emergence not happen. In this case - the ability design. Not just Saryn's, either. Hell, as far as I'm aware, Saryn is the least of the worries. She generally requires more engagement than, say, Volt.

 

Guy, we are not talking about the types of enemies (I already talked about that in another topic), we are talking about combat mechanics, the variety of enemies is important but if the combat mechanics are simple everything will remain easy

En 1/10/2019 a las 6:36, Loza03 dijo:

Individual parts yes, but two different parts of the core gameplay must be in sync. Fast movement and slow combat don't sync. The core gameplay must be well-designed and well put-together before you can deviate from the established pacin

Do the battles with Eidolons and Thumpers not tell you something? Assault missions don't tell you something?

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Just now, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Guy, we are not talking about the types of enemies (I already talked about that in another topic), we are talking about combat mechanics, the variety of enemies is important but if the combat mechanics are simple everything will remain easy

Combat mechanics are how we interact with enemies, and how they interact with us. You change one, you have to change the other. If you up the complexity of how you fight the enemies, the number of  enemies has to come down. Due to the properties of emergence, the amount of variety that can be experienced from a handful of complex enemies and a hive of simpler ones is actually of similar complexity. For example, I mentioned earlier how Monster Hunter uses altered hack-n-slash mechanics. They're altered for the sake of the fact that it's 90% boss fights. That's a very good example of where complex enemies work because you're usually fighting one of them at a time and that one foe is the main event - even multi-foe fights often come down to divide and conquer fights where you take effort to not fight more than one at a time.

The lack of difficulty isn't from the enemies, or how we interact with them. It's from the lack of interaction we have. We have at least three ways to completely ignore combat. Invisibility (and to a lesser extent, functional invulnerability from massive EHP), Nuking and mass CC. What does this system do about enemies never targeting the player in the first place?

19 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Do the battles with Eidolons and Thumpers not tell you something? Assault missions don't tell you something?

Bosses =/= normal enemies. Bosses are an activity or a portion of an activity in and of themselves, whereas normal enemies are functionally game pieces.  And the one assault mission node uses regular enemies, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

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