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TARINunit9

How would you react to the end of power creep?

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Power Creep is a problem on normal missions, after level 150 you see many weapons dealing tons of damage are pretty useless while other "crappy" weapons are better. This is the reason why people ask for a decent endgame.

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They would need to change the dog's dinner that is grineer armour scaling before they done this though.  When a lvl 150 gunner has literally millions of ehp more than an infested or corpus enemy of the same level there is obviously something broken.  

Most players though want to feel like gods and enjoy the power fantasy.  They want to be op and slaughter enemies in droves, it's fun. 

That being said, my current fave loadout is the dex sybaris, dex furis and the hate, all silenced and running ash.  I do have a riv on the hate that I opened myself and is unrolled.  Can do any normal content the game has just fine, sortie 3 defense with a chroma, saryn and rhino had top damage/kills, dunno quite how tbh against a saryn but there you go.

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I like the power creep it is one of the things i love about warframe is feeling powerful.

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What you are proposing is how the game should have been in the first place. This constant moving of the goal post is a fundamental flaw in game design. It’s good to give players new things to chase, but those new things shouldn’t be required to play new content. If we continue down this route, new content will eventually be so far out of reach for new players that most people won’t even bother. No one wants to come into this game and be faced with a 2 year grind just the be able to attempt new content. The only people playing will be veterans, until they all start to eventually lose interest, and the game finally dies. Stopping, and preferably reversing, power creep is essential to keeping this game alive. If DE doesn’t put in the work required, they will be responsible for Warframe’s demise.

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why is powercreep a bad thing in the first place when even the lowest tier of weapons can absolutely decimate even the highest level of relevant content we have? i simply dont understand what "damage" powercreep did to the gameplay at all.

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Well I mean it depends.... are the Bosses going become S#&$tier and more annoying Damage Sponges ? 

Will Mag take a lazer to the face without dying instantly ?

If the end of Power Creep is the beginning of Balance then sign up me... il gladly sacrifice my rivens and arcanes if it meant everyting was more viable....

But if S#&$ like The Wolf Of Saturn Six and Amalgam Demolysts continue then An End To Power Creep may aswell just be an end to Warframe... who the hell wants to deal tiny damage all day ?

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I’d say add diversity back to the game more than nerfing stuff, if you nerf x weapon or x frame there will always be another one to take the spot and the cycle never ends.

-So make healer,support and CC roles actually useful, I used to like more support/healer roles but in this game feels more like covering a lack of proper building on the other players part than actively supporting and adding value to the team

-give CC a reason to exist again, which means creating situations where it’s smarter and faster to stall the enemy than having an higher DPS output, point in case Nox Bursas and Nullifiers, they are failed attempts at this as you can brainlessly force your way through them for how busted the DPS is

-again add diversity to the enemies too, make units that can parry every melee, ones that can absorb bullets around them,  as a way to balance the gap of benefits between guns and melee combat. Rework the armor scaling and that brainlet thing they call AI

-Remove the stupid invincibility phases, the immunity to warframe powers, the silly knockback spam. Those are just symptoms of poor game design and inability to properly address the current powercreep situation, as they dont promote variety but kill it. They strip the players of choice, no matter what frame or build they choose, turning the game in a generic no-name shooter, robbing ‘frame’ from Warframe

-Give a rebalance to those lame AOE nuke skills, and the sick “damage ticks in the distance on the enemies you’re not even aware of” STRAT. Either by reworking the range in a LOS, or adding counters to it i.e. enemies capable of discharging on the ground volt’s electicity around them. Or leave em nukes as they are, but add a requirement to charge the skill before launching it and a CD to reuse it , in a way to prevent spam

-Also making loadouts less dependable on core mods, they could take away mods as Serration and the likes since they are a given, and maybe people would start to consider as a viable option those niche mods DE is handling out by a year or so, adding even more variety to each warframe’s build.

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8 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

The f*ck is powercreep?

Power Creep is a phenomenon in long-running games (both video games and card games) when new content becomes objectively better than old content. In Warframe's case this has manifested as the players being able to kill stronger enemies faster in 2019 compared to what we could do in 2015

4 hours ago, Zeclem said:

why is powercreep a bad thing in the first place when even the lowest tier of weapons can absolutely decimate even the highest level of relevant content we have? i simply dont understand what "damage" powercreep did to the gameplay at all.

Staying as neutral as I can, symptoms of power creep are evident in DE's approach to boss and enemy design. Even when you strip off level scaling and compare base stats, new enemies in new content are objectively more powerful and durable, to combat how the players are more powerful and durable. In addition, many more enemies are immune or resistant to Warframe powers as well as possessing independent damage reduction not reliant on the Armor mechanic

This has come to a head in the Disruption game mode, when the Demolysts have ridiculous levels of tankiness, nullification properties, immunity to all forms of incapacitation, immunity to status procs, etc. that necessitate bringing high-level meta weapons (such as maxed-out Rubico Prime or other such guns) just to get to the first C rotation

Also, power creep dropped Nyx from God Tier to Low Tier without a single nerf to her kit

I wasn't lieing about the "Staying as neutral as I can" bit. Someone like you could argue that power creep being restricted to later missions such as Disruption, Tier5 Bounties on the Vallis, and the upcoming Tau Ceti system could be used as a measure of player progression in order to keep the damage of power creep away from new players. I kept that in mind when I made this thread

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Powercreep is unavoidable in online games that keep getting updates until it's end of life. Also OP saying that Akjagara prime and Tipedo prime are weak...are you high? Zhuge Prime is untested, so is Ninkondi prime that got IPS added to base damage, cant talk about those yet in performance. Akjagara Prime is a great SECONDARY weapon and Tipedo base was already amazing for an mr5 weapon, Prime is EVEN better. Gram prime, a sidegrade to Galatine prime? Gram P is FAR stronger albeit just slower, Galatine prime is nowhere a "powercreep" weapon. Rubico Prime is not much of a powercreep either as base was already a good weapon, and sniper rifles are meant to hit hard. Now boy do you wanna speak true powercreep? FULMIN, just a MR8 weapon that is very strong, KITGUNS that are INSANELY strong and available from MR1. Argueably even the latest vandals, Glaxion and Spectra would fit into the powercreep category.

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Remember when DE changed the way enemy level is calculated so that we wouldn't reach enemies with levels above 1000?

Good times

4 hours ago, Zeclem said:

what "damage" powercreep did to the gameplay at all.

Player is so powerful the only way enemies can challenge them is to either remove the margin of error (you mess up once and you're completely dead), disable them completely, or take away their power. Things either pose no threat or instakill you.

Difficulty curve doesn't exist, instead we got a difficulty step function.

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

even the lowest tier of weapons can absolutely decimate even the highest level

Can I have your Kraken build?

14 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

you could argue that power creep being restricted to later missions such as Disruption, Tier5 Bounties on the Vallis, and the upcoming Tau Ceti system could be used as a measure of player progression in order to keep the damage of power creep away from new players.

The gap created by powercreep is enough to separate veterans from newbies already, but DE doesn't seem to know when to stop.

We already have content that requires you to have a hefty amount of damage reduction, and be able to strip or bypass armor in some way. There's no reason to push even further.

We don't even really have any content that actually conforms to the amount of power we currently have. The only way to get something like that is to run endless missions for an extended period of time, but those scale infinitely, so no matter how strong you are eventually it'll catch up. But forcing a player to play for two hours before the enemies start fighting back is not a good design.

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20 minutes ago, Diavoros said:

Also OP saying that Akjagara prime and Tipedo prime are weak...are you high?

I didn't say they were weak. They just haven't replaced Pyrana Prime and Maiming Body Rush Overload Atterax. They're power creep compared to 2015, but not 2019

21 minutes ago, Diavoros said:

Galatine prime is nowhere a "powercreep" weapon.

When War, a super rare drop that had the highest base damage in the game, so high that it had to be made Impact (as opposed to Slash like Broken-War) to prevent it from being the be-all-end-all of weapon damage... is eventually surpassed by an ordinary Galatine Prime, that's power creep

This is before we get into Dex Dakra -> Kronen -> Boltace -> Ohma and Telos Boltace

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If enemy scaling got more love so that bringing weapons down a peg to fight power creep didn't make things a hassle I'd be gucci.

 If you took Warframe as it is now and decided to 'balance' all weapons to some arbitrary opinion-fueled average than it'd just make things a huge pain. The fun factor would take a hit for the average player. No matter how much you tell yourself that you'd love the weapons to be perfectly balanced, the truth is that'd suck because the weapon imbalance is in constant flux with the enemy imbalances.

 The Wolf in the last Nightwave was the literal embodiment of the unfun end of how DE sometimes designs enemies. You may argue that "Well he was only so bad in reaction to DPS cannon builds!" but I can only point towards the fact that massive DPS weapons are popular because they feel the best when you go up against the game's chunkiest enemies. We'll end up in an infinite loop of "The weapon are bad because the enemies are." followed by "But the enemies are bad because the weapons limit design!".

 Both are broke. They'd both need fixing.

 

 And Rivens would have to be nerfed practically to death. Their entire existence drastically increases power creep. Unfortunately player cry tears of blood if you dare suggest that the concept of a 3k plat Riven they've bought in order to turn their recently added weapon into a hate-cannon is evidence that the system is sloppy and toxic for the game.

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16 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

OfYGY.gif

We are hitting a powercreep level that shouldn't even be possible where Galatine Prime is considered weak coz Gram Prime has better stat with 5 stars disposition and Arca Plasmor has a even better perfect replacement

Wait, what's better than the Arca Plasmor?

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24 minutes ago, Blatantfool said:

If enemy scaling got more love so that bringing weapons down a peg to fight power creep didn't make things a hassle I'd be gucci.

 If you took Warframe as it is now and decided to 'balance' all weapons to some arbitrary opinion-fueled average than it'd just make things a huge pain. The fun factor would take a hit for the average player. No matter how much you tell yourself that you'd love the weapons to be perfectly balanced, the truth is that'd suck because the weapon imbalance is in constant flux with the enemy imbalances.

 The Wolf in the last Nightwave was the literal embodiment of the unfun end of how DE sometimes designs enemies. You may argue that "Well he was only so bad in reaction to DPS cannon builds!" but I can only point towards the fact that massive DPS weapons are popular because they feel the best when you go up against the game's chunkiest enemies. We'll end up in an infinite loop of "The weapon are bad because the enemies are." followed by "But the enemies are bad because the weapons limit design!".

 Both are broke. They'd both need fixing.

 

 And Rivens would have to be nerfed practically to death. Their entire existence drastically increases power creep. Unfortunately player cry tears of blood if you dare suggest that the concept of a 3k plat Riven they've bought in order to turn their recently added weapon into a hate-cannon is evidence that the system is sloppy and toxic for the game.

I've played games that have died because they went the route of "balancing" weapon power creep with enemy power creep.

Eventually all you get are bullet sponges with permanent super armor that make the game as dull as it can get. 

You don't know what you're asking for, you don't want that.

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3 minutes ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Wait, what's better than the Arca Plasmor?

Catchmoon comes to mind.

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56 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

Player is so powerful the only way enemies can challenge them is to either remove the margin of error (you mess up once and you're completely dead), disable them completely, or take away their power. Things either pose no threat or instakill you.

And that's when you know a power creep has gone too far. Watch out for permanent super armored enemies next. Then, you got a real problem if the creep keeps rising after that.

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Just now, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

permanent super armored enemies

Oh that already exists, but it's not as common.

They put it on the open world bosses

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11 minutes ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

I've played games that have died because they went the route of "balancing" weapon power creep with enemy power creep.

Eventually all you get are bullet sponges with permanent super armor that make the game as dull as it can get. 

You don't know what you're asking for, you don't want that.

 You've either speedread my post or missed my point. The forums here move fast sometimes so it's a habit I even fall into sometimes. I can't blame you.

 What I'm saying is that you can't have one and not the other. You 'balance' weapons without bringing the baddies down too and the game will play like crap. You 'balance' the enemies and don't bring the weapons in line and the game will play like crap.

 The weapon balance conversation and enemy scaling conversation are directly related. That is why I mention the loop of "Weapons are bad because enemies are too beefy!" followed by "Enemies are too beefy because weapon dps is too high!"

 Both need to be addressed simultaneously as they are issues so closely tied together that the health of the game hinges on the two points working together.

 You've never seen a game die because it's weapons and enemies were balanced, if the two were in harmony the game wouldn't be unhealthy. You've seen a game die to power creep, the process of the balance between player ability and enemy ability spiraling upwards forever. I never implied power creep was a good thing. I am simply arguing that the power creep issue is bigger than guns.

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb .Dracula.:

I don't really mind the power creep all that much honestly.

Pretty much my opinion.. there's more important things on the list, like dedicated servers to finally get rid of lag, bugs and disconnects.. I'm at that point where I have to select a mission like 50 times (over exaggerating) and quit the game I join (which alters my quit rate, ugh) to ensure that I'm the host.. it's an awful experience, no more seamless gameplay.. no more "just go online and play" .. because I'm just tired of losing loot.. or get into lobbies where abilities don't work, where status weapons don't proc status at all, or the open world host migration chaos thanks to the "leave squad" option..

UGH!

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17 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:
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As a follow-up question, how would you feel if DE went past the Pokemon Route and full-on into the Team Fortress 2 Route of reverse power creep? How would you feel if we got full-on rollbacks of power back to a perceived golden age? Arca Plasmor and Rubico Prime and Galatine/Gram Primes nerfed to levels of the Hek, Vectis Prime, and War/Paracesis. Maiming Strike nerfed from +90% to flat 90%. Blood Rush nerfed to +100%. Gara's Splinter Storm/Vitrify combo is given a hard cap. Other such nerfs to bring us down to roughly pre-ESO levels of power

 

Maiming strike IS  flat 90% you moron

shadow debt brought blood rush because nothing scaled and made most melee usable before CO ever took its seat, stop getting upset over basic mods needed to function with melee

Finally, please learn the game and stop wasting everyone's time before calling vectis/hek bad and thinking the plasmor needs a 3rd nerf because of your lack of ability to comprehend what balance is as opposed to examining the game's lack of content to use these weapons in for a power fantasy hoard game designed to make you feel unkillable and a god

 

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giphy.gif

 

Every power fantasy should have its limits and those limits should be where the challenge in the game begins to diminish. If there's no challenge...whats the point in playing?

 

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