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elitharcos

Limbo rework/tweak idea.

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The reason:

In his current state limbo is a warframe whose capabilities are endless. From annoying teammates to being immortal and being able to stop the time. I have came up with a balanced rework idea of limbo which would benefit allies, yet remain limbo's playability and fun factor. Thia is my idea:

 

Passive: Can see enemies through his plane and the normal material plane. Whilist in his own plane tho, all enemies are seen through walld for him, like Zenith's disc allows people to do so.

 

1st ability - dimension door: It spawns a little, 5x5x2(tall,wide,long) wall like shape which leads to the other dimension. Shooting through it will shoot to the other plane. Casting cost is 50 energy. Duration lasts for (constant) 30 seconds + if there are anyone inside the dimension it lasts until that personel leaves it. Wheter it is a warframe or an NPC. Casting this ability again will push everyone out of the rift immediately with ally warframes being an exception, they will get out when they reach the portal or forcedly after 30 seconds. In those 30 seconds limbo cannot summon another portal. The 30 seconds lockout for limbo remains.

 

2nd ability - time dialation: When an enemy is inside limbo's plane, the more they are inside of the plane, the slower they are. For every unit inside of limbo's plane the enemy units will be slower by 4/5/6/7%. This ability is affected by power strength, duration and efficiency. Casting cost is 50 energy.

 

3rd ability - pull from the rift: When you cast this ability it will pull every enemy within 4/6/8/10 meters and outside of the rift inside of the rift. Only works if you are within the rift. Casting this ability opens a 2m radius portal to the dimension for allies only which lasts for a constant of 60 seconds. Everyone who entered through this portal will be sent back after 60 seconds including enemies. Affected by power duration, range, efficiency.

 

4th ability - broken rift: When Limbo casts this ability, he becomes enchanced for material and non-material plane. He will be able to shoot enemies from the other plane too, perform stealth kills on them. When a stealth kill is performed it will drag the unit to the other plane.

 

Changes to the rift:

-ally warframes cannot see inside/outside of the plane anymore

-abilities still work throughout the planes like before

-the color enchancement goes from total grey to a bit of purpleish(at least i hope, visual change only)

-The speed changes from 2nd ability are applied to projectiles, except if they are allied ones. And max speed decrease limit is 100%.

 

Augment changes:

Walking door - when you collide with another allied warframe while in the rift they will become enchanced in rift(look at 4) for 3/6/9/12 seconds. This has a 90 second cooldown. When the duration ends allied warframes are sent back to material plane.

Space dialation - when you kill an enemy while they are under the effects of the time dialation, you will summon a vortex in the material plane which will pull in enemies and deal 25/50/75/100% of the killed target's maximum health as finisher damage over 10 seconds.

 

Union pull - when you cast your 3rd ability, it will be cast at everyone's locstion inside of the rift, but others will only pull in enemies from within 1/2/3/4 meters of them.

 

United rifts - when you use your 4th ability, it will also enchance all of your allies within 4/6/8/10 meters and make a copy of them which will deal 100% damage.

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Again another "tweak suggestion" thread that completely changes the entire Warframe. Again I say: The amount of work spent on a rework like this is better invested in making a new Warframe altogether. 

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Woh..
I tried my best to imagine how it could be to play with this limbo..
In all objectivity, it's.. horrible °-° sincerely, sorry ._.
Limbo is perfect as it is now. '-'
Your rework completely removes the bubble xD
Making him very very static, with no dynamism, and overcomplicated..

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Azvalk said:

Making him very very static, with no dynamism, and overcomplicated..

I assume you mean dynamic.

I wouldn't say Limbo has very dynamic gameplay.

He is a highly specialized frame. That is, he only focus on doing one specific thing during a mission. That makes his gameplay pretty static IMO.

Edited by yles9056
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I hope you don't mind if I speak freely here... this is a very flawed rework suggestion.

23 minutes ago, elitharcos said:

Passive: Can see enemies through his plane and the normal material plane. Whilist in his own plane tho, all enemies are seen through walld for him, like Zenith's disc allows people to do so.

Removing Limbo's ability to freely go to the rift is... just the worst idea. That removes so much of his playability as an guerilla fighter able to hop in and out of danger and move without restrictions and confines him to defensive, stationary play, since he'd be limited to the handful of portals he has up. Right now, he can smoothly switch planes whenever he wants, and that contributes so much to his fun factor. Starting in the rift, rolling out of the rift, leaping into the air, attacking targets then phasing back into the rift before you hit the ground for a cheeky air attack, for example. Or dodging an Arson Eximus flame aura by phasing through it. Or ignoring lasers, magnetic bubbles and gunfire to move unimpeded whenever the situation calls for mobility, before flitting back to reality to capitalise on your new position. 

The fact that other people can't see other enemies through the rift is also a terrible idea that will get people killed when they walk in, can't see anything, lose the buff then it turns out they were in a mob of bombards. We want Limbo to be less trolly, not more.

24 minutes ago, elitharcos said:

1st ability - dimension door: It spawns a little, 5x5x2(tall,wide,long) wall like shape which leads to the other dimension. Shooting through it will shoot to the other plane. Casting cost is 50 energy. Duration lasts for (constant) 30 seconds + if there are anyone inside the dimension it lasts until that personel leaves it. Wheter it is a warframe or an NPC. Casting this ability again will push everyone out of the rift immediately with ally warframes being an exception, they will get out when they reach the portal or forcedly after 30 seconds. In those 30 seconds limbo cannot summon another portal. The 30 seconds lockout for limbo remains.

This is probably your best idea, but it maintains the ever-classic 'Limbo get your rift opening off the console we need to save the hostage' in its current form - assuming that players move into the rift plane when stepping through the portal.

Plus you lose access to Banish, which is a pretty good tool to snipe things into the rift. I'd honestly prefer it if Banish's old functionality were added to Limbo's current banish as a held option. Either that, or this on hold, but purely the 'shooting through it part' - with the caveat that enemies can shoot you through it too, to maintain the whole 'two dimensions' schtick. Risk/Reward.

37 minutes ago, elitharcos said:

2nd ability - time dialation: When an enemy is inside limbo's plane, the more they are inside of the plane, the slower they are. For every unit inside of limbo's plane the enemy units will be slower by 4/5/6/7%. This ability is affected by power strength, duration and efficiency. Casting cost is 50 energy.

So basically a worse version of Molecular Prime?

Stasis is problematic due to it never not being useful, but that's no more true than any other hard CC power, and best fixed by an overhaul to how enemies interact with abilities as a whole. If it must go, it should be replaced by something equally as useful.  Currently, it's the most versatile CC in the game since it can be as wide-ranging or as precise as you want, as well as affecting boss guns, making Limbo an excellent choice in Sortie/Kuva Flood assassinates and Plague Star.

3 hours ago, elitharcos said:

3rd ability - pull from the rift: When you cast this ability it will pull every enemy within 4/6/8/10 meters and outside of the rift inside of the rift. Only works if you are within the rift. Casting this ability opens a 2m radius portal to the dimension for allies only which lasts for a constant of 60 seconds. Everyone who entered through this portal will be sent back after 60 seconds including enemies. Affected by power duration, range, efficiency.

The rift-walk portal is irritating enough for 15 seconds, I don't want to deal with a minute-long portal that's nearly as big as a Komorex explosion. Also, this is basically just a less-precise banish. Which used to be his 1, but is now his 3, and presumably costs in the ballpark of 50 energy, and now has less range.

This also seems to be his only way of bringing enemies into the rift, making his abilities before this entirely worthless until he unlocks this ability during levelling.

Rift surge isn't that great, but that's because there's very little reason to use it before the niche scenarios it gets use come up. Buffing it with some other effect, kind of like its augment, would work.

3 hours ago, elitharcos said:

4th ability - broken rift: When Limbo casts this ability, he becomes enchanced for material and non-material plane. He will be able to shoot enemies from the other plane too, perform stealth kills on them. When a stealth kill is performed it will drag the unit to the other plane.

If I had a penny... Let me guess, Limbo can shoot enemies but they can't shoot him? I will never like this. It messes with his whole theming. He has two dimensions. That's his thing. This basically removes that since you can operate on both planes. Why ever Banish anything? What's the difference between him and Inaros?

Also, you're removing his bubble. The lynchpin of his playability. Limbo's schtick is that he is the best defender, at the cost of no offensive powers by default. Gara, Frost and Volt all have defensive shields but they're worse than the Rift, but they have significant damage support or dealing powers to compensate. Limbo can defend anything, but relies soley on his weapons to attack. His bubble is a big part of that, since it defends anything that can't be banished and stems the tide of enemies.

Removing it removes most of the rest of his playability that was lost with the inability to rift-walk, making him basically into Wukong 2.0 - an immortal frame that has literally nothing else going for him.

 

All in all... this isn't a very good rework. The rationale is to avoid teammate frustration, whilst keeping Limbos fun factor and power. It achieves neither goal.

It keeps several of Limbo's troll moves and makes them worse (since Teammates are basically blind in the rift now) and Limbo can still block consoles and doors and whatnot with the portals of his 3 and potentially 1, whilst removing much of his benefits.

Limbo loses basically all of his power and versatility, as he can no longer defend anything or CC areas, can no longer freely flit in and out of the rift, is made considerably more vulnerable when he's in his own dimension unless he drags literally everything into the rift, which he now has trouble doing as he has only one option with a very short maximum range compared to now.

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il y a une heure, yles9056 a dit :

I wouldn't say Limbo has very dynamic gameplay. 

He can place his bubble very far. ( plains or orb vallis )
A 40-50m bubble with time stopped can be very handy to save teamates in trouble ^^
That's what I call dynamic. Without being there yet, he can prepare things.

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2 hours ago, Azvalk said:

He can place his bubble very far. ( plains or orb vallis )
A 40-50m bubble with time stopped can be very handy to save teamates in trouble ^^
That's what I call dynamic. Without being there yet, he can prepare things.

Most players I met in open world map were so aggressive. They kill everything so fast that I don't want to use Cataclysm to slow them down.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Again another "tweak suggestion" thread that completely changes the entire Warframe. Again I say: The amount of work spent on a rework like this is better invested in making a new Warframe altogether. 

Said rework/tweak

 

Tweak for the rift

Reworo for warframe.

 

I guess you guys missed the point.

The guy for example who was above explainingly questioning well... got everything wrong i guess...

I havs tried to make his kit accessible to teammates, without having to make him decide wheter they can enter or not by an existing portal to it which lasts as long as anyone remains in it or for 30 seconds.

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4 hours ago, elitharcos said:

The guy for example who was above explainingly questioning well... got everything wrong i guess...

I havs tried to make his kit accessible to teammates, without having to make him decide wheter they can enter or not by an existing portal to it which lasts as long as anyone remains in it or for 30 seconds.

Assuming you mean me - No, I get that. You just failed to achieve that goal. 

Right now, players have a choice to stay or enter the rift by entering Catalclysm or rolling out of the rift. Under this rework, they would have the same number of options but would be heavily discouraged from ever entering the rift considering just how gimped they are from being blind to anything outside the rift, especially since there'd be no reason and very limited options for Limbo to draw enemies into the rift for them to see in the first place - his only option is on his third ability, and it has the range of Limbo's unranked cataclysm - which is to say, very small. Why would he do that when he can just hit that 4 and become invincible?

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Posted (edited)

Limbo needs two things to be adressed only, not necessarily an upteenth rework.

First, Cataclysm shouldn't stop projectiles - since it doesn't stop powers it shoud definitely allow players to shoot at anything from inside which is one if not the most annoying Limbo's feature at the moment. Even with reduced damages or anything, preventing others from basically playing was a really bad idea in the first place.

Second, Rift Surge needs to be changed from an overcomplicated mechanics to something really useful along with cataclysm - If it would greatly increase cataclysm range it could have some kind of utility, then allowing players to shoot at anything at long range from Cataclysm. For now it's mostly helping Limbo and everyone else gets screwed in the process - It's making Limbo annoyance even worse.

Design team shouldn't think about what makes Limbo cooler but more about what really annoys other players.

Edited by 000l000

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This isn't a tweak, but a full overhaul that you suggested. As other's said, completely replacing all abilities is a new frame... In most cases a rework only replaces up to 1 or 2 abilities and improves mechanics on existing ones to make them work.

Limbo is my second most used frame, so I know he's an unstoppable beast in solo play. But this is still a co-op game and I am never allowed to use any ability but Cataclysm when allies are within my casting range because of how much affect he has on other players' gameplay. He should be reworked to improve what he does while limiting his drawbacks on his allies.

The Rift is inherently the primary problem with his kit and it's very unforgiving. There could be 2 types of Rift phasing among his abilities (screw any lore associated with it, function is more important). "Full Rift" would work the way it does now, no interaction with the opposite plane. Partial Rift would be more forgiving. Partially Rifted enemies will be only partially transported to the Rift, causing them to only deal less damage to opponents on the opposite plane but still receive full damage from your allies. Essentially it will be more of a debuff on enemy damage, but are still vulnerable to Stasis when active. Allies that are Partially Rifted will take full damage from Rifted enemies but less damage from non-Rifted enemies, but gain a similar benefit of Limbo's passive ability to regain energy from Rifted enemies they kill (probably weapon kills only to limit Nuke frames from having unlimited energy) in addition to the normal energy regeneration over time in the Rift. Partial Phase would make teaming with Limbo less agonizing for a majority of the player base.

Passive: Keep his Rift Walk, but remove the portal. It's a pain and no one intentionally uses it, especially Limbo himself (why can he even use it? Ugh...). Keep his ability to gain energy from Rifted enemy kills.

1. Banish stays a cone, but now causes Partial Phasing on affected targets. This will be his most used ability as it essentially protects allies and deals damage to enemies without the current drawbacks and obscenities from allies.

2. Stasis can probably stay as is. With the current version not stopping projectiles at all and having a shorter duration it's pretty balanced and effective with manual upkeep.

3. Rift Surge is probably the only ability of his that could be completely replaced. Without the augment it's very situational. Before I've suggested making its new effect be to violently expel all enemies from the Rift (regardless of range), damaging them. If Partial Rift is included, a better use would probably be to make it damage and cause a blast proc on all Rifted within a set radius of Limbo.

4. Cataclysm would remain Full Rift as it is now with no interaction on the opposite plane (since it is for area defense and allies can easily choose when to or not to be in it). It would need some sort of incentive though since players avoid it even now. Maybe a small power strength boost that stacks over time, the longer a player is in cataclysm (up to a cap) and remains for a duration after leaving it. The buff will only work at full strength while either fully or partially Rifted, but still provide a small percentage of the buff when not in the Rift.

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15 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

This isn't a tweak, but a full overhaul that you suggested. As other's said, completely replacing all abilities is a new frame... In most cases a rework only replaces up to 1 or 2 abilities and improves mechanics on existing ones to make them work.

Limbo is my second most used frame, so I know he's an unstoppable beast in solo play. But this is still a co-op game and I am never allowed to use any ability but Cataclysm when allies are within my casting range because of how much affect he has on other players' gameplay. He should be reworked to improve what he does while limiting his drawbacks on his allies.

The Rift is inherently the primary problem with his kit and it's very unforgiving. There could be 2 types of Rift phasing among his abilities (screw any lore associated with it, function is more important). "Full Rift" would work the way it does now, no interaction with the opposite plane. Partial Rift would be more forgiving. Partially Rifted enemies will be only partially transported to the Rift, causing them to only deal less damage to opponents on the opposite plane but still receive full damage from your allies. Essentially it will be more of a debuff on enemy damage, but are still vulnerable to Stasis when active. Allies that are Partially Rifted will take full damage from Rifted enemies but less damage from non-Rifted enemies, but gain a similar benefit of Limbo's passive ability to regain energy from Rifted enemies they kill (probably weapon kills only to limit Nuke frames from having unlimited energy) in addition to the normal energy regeneration over time in the Rift. Partial Phase would make teaming with Limbo less agonizing for a majority of the player base.

Passive: Keep his Rift Walk, but remove the portal. It's a pain and no one intentionally uses it, especially Limbo himself (why can he even use it? Ugh...). Keep his ability to gain energy from Rifted enemy kills.

1. Banish stays a cone, but now causes Partial Phasing on affected targets. This will be his most used ability as it essentially protects allies and deals damage to enemies without the current drawbacks and obscenities from allies.

2. Stasis can probably stay as is. With the current version not stopping projectiles at all and having a shorter duration it's pretty balanced and effective with manual upkeep.

3. Rift Surge is probably the only ability of his that could be completely replaced. Without the augment it's very situational. Before I've suggested making its new effect be to violently expel all enemies from the Rift (regardless of range), damaging them. If Partial Rift is included, a better use would probably be to make it damage and cause a blast proc on all Rifted within a set radius of Limbo.

4. Cataclysm would remain Full Rift as it is now with no interaction on the opposite plane (since it is for area defense and allies can easily choose when to or not to be in it). It would need some sort of incentive though since players avoid it even now. Maybe a small power strength boost that stacks over time, the longer a player is in cataclysm (up to a cap) and remains for a duration after leaving it. The buff will only work at full strength while either fully or partially Rifted, but still provide a small percentage of the buff when not in the Rift.

The only thing tho why i want to change stasis a bit is because stasis can literally stop all enemies who are not bosses, etc.

That makes it very unlikely to die at all. I mean, the last time i lost matches were when LoR and JV was still a thing. With things like stasis it is almost impossible, even if overwhelmed to die to enemies. If they are slowed at least they can take some action. I am in for the time stopping stuff, but i would like it if there was some effort in it, like having to keep up energy or having to have enemies inside the rift to make it more effective etc.

I play the game since the time when you had DAILY 4 revives. If you ran out of it, you couldn't revive at next missions.

The thing why I came up with this idea is because i would like it if Limbo was a warframe of real rifts. I mean, when you enter the rift, you become someone who has control, etc. you are the one who puts people inside/outside. I should probably upload a video as of what i thought of, because currently as i see people mistake it with some bad sht.

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7 hours ago, elitharcos said:

 

He's vulnerable to Corpus due to Nullifiers at least. 

And Stasis has a short duration so you have to reactivate and pay the casting cost frequently to keep it up. And he can easily be one-shot by enemies in high levels with even a second of it being disabled. I wouldn't mind if it required an energy over time cost to keep up though for more balance. 

I played back with the 4 revives per day too. And honestly i liked Limbo more back then in some ways but everyone else on the team hated him even more than they do now. 

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8 hours ago, elitharcos said:

The only thing tho why i want to change stasis a bit is because stasis can literally stop all enemies who are not bosses, etc.

That makes it very unlikely to die at all. I mean, the last time i lost matches were when LoR and JV was still a thing. With things like stasis it is almost impossible, even if overwhelmed to die to enemies. If they are slowed at least they can take some action. I am in for the time stopping stuff, but i would like it if there was some effort in it, like having to keep up energy or having to have enemies inside the rift to make it more effective etc.

I understand where you're coming from, and to a large part I agree - Stasis is OP.

Thing is... most hard CC is OP. And by most, I can't really think of many that aren't. If it was just Stasis, I'd be more receptive to a change, but unfortunately we're in a paradigm of OP powers of late, and your suggested change is much, much worse as it removes most of his power without making it more applicable. Bearing in mind Limbo's status as the 'Defense only, but best at that' frame, his situation with it requires a more delicate touch.

And it doesn't really justify gutting most of the rest of his playability, especially his free-switch mechanics.

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