The genuis thing about Saryn’s design is that you can’t deal to much damage too fast or she gets punished in the long term.

[(PSN)FK2P]

Title said it all really, theres a double edged sword in saryn’s kit. It’s not meant to kill fast, it’s meant to be a measured and careful scale that grows with the enemies around it. But no one gets to see that reality because your all stuck in Hydron.

People complaing about saryn, first of all- the game is FAR FAR FAR too easy. If your worried about people “stealing your kills” then you don’t understand that a kill is not something you are entitled to. And if the enemy is getting killed by an initial cast of Miasma or spores, it’s safe to say that these enemies are of such a meek and milky consistency that you could probably kill them by sneezing on them. What I think needs to happen is that enemy levels need to increase FAR FASTER than they do now. 2 hours to get to level 200 enemies is FAR TOO LONG. people are not touching the scaling content that the warframes need to be buffed for, and people are far less interested in pushing the limits of their teamwork and gear than they were years ago. So I say bring the fight to them.

I was ushered in at a time when I looked up to people who had effective gear and weapons and it made me want to grind for it myself. Being an entitled casual just means you lack challenge. Don’t bring down other peoples warframes just because you can’t knock over a weak enemy before they can.

Saryn is not OP, your ALL op, it’s just that saryn happens to just cover more ground in the early levels. Big deal. She isn’t stealing anything from you at all, those kills are nothing to be proud of, she’s literally saving you some time.

Also, to further my point, you have a gun, so for those complaining about her range, why not just shoot something with it.

[Autongnosis]

She does have some pretty insanely overpowered combinations, borderline broken even, with some specific mod types and her Toxin Lash, which i don't want to detail too much because last time i tried to bring it up in Glen's AMA the post got deleted without any notice so I'm still unsure about DE stance on it. 

 

Other than that, when your power matters she's only an ambient debuffer/secondary DPS. Which admittedly she does very well with all the forced procs, area armour strip and area viral procs. 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

she not like her old kit where you could cast molt an toss spores, then have your zenistar constantly break the spore to deal mad damage.

she now is where your have to understand how you mod her affects her other abilites like every other frame.
some see the 1 + 4 combo is overpowered as it can be seen like that but those who just spam her 4 are not really doing much as your not using her right.

Along with recasting spore while its active takes a portion of its damage tick away making it weaker each time you spam it

[GnarlsDarkley]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

she not like her old kit where you could cast molt an toss spores

I first thought at "her old kit" press 4 to win...then I continued to "cast mold and spores" and I was like "ohhhh that 'old one'"...Guess, I've been around too long 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

1 minute ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

I first thought at "her old kit" press 4 to win...then I continued to "cast mold and spores" and I was like "ohhhh that 'old one'"...Guess, I've been around too long 

nah the spore an molt combo was much more deadly as you could easily kill more with it than with her 4 for the same amount of energy

[Autongnosis]

il y a 26 minutes, GnarlsDarkley a dit :

I first thought at "her old kit" press 4 to win...then I continued to "cast mold and spores" and I was like "ohhhh that 'old one'"...Guess, I've been around too long 

Same hahahaha those minimum duration days man

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

4 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

“stealing your kills”

I agree with you on most of these points. But i wanted to explain this one.

The complaint has never been about AoE/Nuke frames stealing kills. That's just an argument people use to try to marginalize the complaint. The issue is that in some content those kind of frames can literally prevent anyone else on the team from playing at all...

If the goal is simply mission completion, like Invasions or Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, that's one thing. For the entire rest of the game running through and wiping everything at that rate is causing your allies to miss out on affinity, item drops, and actual game time. 

[(PSN)FK2P]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I agree with you on most of these points. But i wanted to explain this one.

The complaint has never been about AoE/Nuke frames stealing kills. That's just an argument people use to try to marginalize the complaint. The issue is that in some content those kind of frames can literally prevent anyone else on the team from playing at all...

If the goal is simply mission completion, like Invasions or Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, that's one thing. For the entire rest of the game running through and wiping everything at that rate is causing your allies to miss out on affinity, item drops, and actual game time. 

Can’t you just run ahead?

[(PSN)FK2P]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I agree with you on most of these points. But i wanted to explain this one.

The complaint has never been about AoE/Nuke frames stealing kills. That's just an argument people use to try to marginalize the complaint. The issue is that in some content those kind of frames can literally prevent anyone else on the team from playing at all...

If the goal is simply mission completion, like Invasions or Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, that's one thing. For the entire rest of the game running through and wiping everything at that rate is causing your allies to miss out on affinity, item drops, and actual game time. 

Saryn ticks away damage in the hundreds, so only things at level 10 or below will be one shotted, it’s very hard if not impossible to bring up your damage in low level level 1-50 because you can’t effect enough enemies over time to keep the damage alive, so your mostly dealing base spore damage, building it slightly then letting it die again. It’s only very late game where the spores are ticking on and on you see the numbers stack up that she could ever nuke anything. If saryn is killing everything, it’s probably very low level and you should be able to just run past her in a non defence style mission

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Can’t you just run ahead?

Not all frames have the same speed, and Saryn's last rework in fact gave one of her abilities a speed buff. If you're there for drops you can't run ahead because you have to collect resources. The flow is much more natural with non nuke frames. 

I'm not saying those frames don't have their place, only that they do in fact cause issues for their teams in the very unbalanced state of the game. 

[(PSN)FK2P]

Just now, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Not all frames have the same speed, and Saryn's last rework in fact gave one of her abilities a speed buff. If you're there for drops you can't run ahead because you have to collect resources. The flow is much more natural with non nuke frames. 

I'm not saying those frames don't have their place, only that they do in fact cause issues for their teams in the very unbalanced state of the game. 

I think the other DPS frames need to be brought up to saryns level. Saryn has MANY drawbacks, she just happens to flatten trash mobs. Chroma flattens eidolons and meta bosses, each has its own niche.

[MirageKnight]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

I think the other DPS frames need to be brought up to saryns level.

And make all Support / CC 'Frames pretty much superfluous and drive the last nail into the coffin? No thanks!

Want to know something sad? Nyx, Vauban, Frost, and similar Frames were highly valuable back in the day when power creep / terrible balancing weren't an issue. Now keep this in mind: Nyx and Vauban haven't changed too much and would still be useful in their intended and designed roles - mob control. The problem is you have nukes that can out-right kill mobs, which makes CC largely redundant. What's the point of having a Frame that can control / disrupt over a wide area when another Frame can simply kill everything in that same area?

23 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Saryn has MANY drawbacks

Name them.

You made a sweeping claim, now back it up with some actual facts. Otherwise, your statement is nothing but hyperbole that's meant to try and justify Saryn's out-right brokenness...which arguably it can't.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

she just happens to easily nuke anything on the star chart.

Fixed that for you.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

I think the other DPS frames need to be brought up to saryns level. Saryn has MANY drawbacks, she just happens to flatten trash mobs. Chroma flattens eidolons and meta bosses, each has its own niche.

There are very little dps frames that need looking at.  Those would be Ember, Baruuk, Valk, and atlas.  Any other frame that is good at killing is already good enough at killing things.  If you're talking about AoE nukes in the dps group then you have octavia, equinox, Gara, Garuda, and volt.  Both octavia and equinox out dps Saryn already in ESO if you go on a long run making Saryn a debuffer.  Gara and Garuda already nuke things up to sortie level rather well as is.  And volt can be made to nuke decently but he falls off a bit harder just after end game.

A lot of people don't particularly understand Saryn in general let alone in comparison to other kits.  She gets more praise than she really deserves for things outside ESO.  But yeah.  There are not many DPS frames that need adjusting.  And the frames that can compete with Saryn's nuke potential already give her a decent run for her money.  Two of which straight out class her as time goes on.  Neither Saryn or dps frames need big overhauls.  People need perspective changes on the game as a whole.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

8 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

And make all Support / CC 'Frames pretty much superfluous and drive the last nail into the coffin? No thanks!

Support/cc is still valuable.  It's frames that do one specific thing that are no longer mandatory that hurts.  And you know what did that?  Operator mode.  Not other frames.

8 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Want to know something sad? Nyx, Vauban, Frost, and similar Frames were highly valuable back in the day when power creep / terrible balancing weren't an issue. Now keep this in mind: Nyx and Vauban haven't changed too much and would still be useful in their intended and designed roles - mob control. The problem is you have nukes that can out-right kill mobs, which makes CC largely redundant. What's the point of having a Frame that can control / disrupt over a wide area when another Frame can simply kill everything in that same area?

Nyx's value was removed with her rework.  Not due to dps becoming king.  Booben and frost are still two solid picks for sortie level things like mobile defense and interception as you're better off not killing enemies  who are 80+ in order to make the stuff go by fast without having to worry about spawns.  Out right killing is only ever mandatory in things like exterminate or survival (and the two other niche modes that no one cares about.)  otherwise you're free to use cc to win.  I get that people are frustrated with more and more enemies being power immune but DPS isn't causing that.  CC is just as valuable as it ever was.  Self sustain/buffing is what is king at the moment.  DE has been actively trying to push people away from mandatory picks.  They want to avoid old void where you had a dedicated support, dedicated CC/defense.

8 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Name them.

She sucks at dealing with bosses.  And spore management is something you're constantly having to deal with in content outside of ESO.

8 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

You made a sweeping claim, now back it up with some actual facts. Otherwise, your statement is nothing but hyperbole that's meant to try and justify Saryn's out-right brokenness...which arguably it can't.

There are 5 other frames that directly compete with Saryn in an AoE killing potential.  2 of which out class her in killing potential in her home field of ESO.  The other 3 can nuke small rooms just like Saryn can and the gap between them is so short that's it's irrelevant on who you're picking.  Saryn isn't anywhere close to being the best frame at the game as a whole as she's only good at one thing which is killing.  And as i've already mentioned she has healthy competition.

8 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Fixed that for you.

Star chart is trivial by a lot of things in a variety of ways.  If star chart was end game then maybe you'd have a point.  Saryn complaints always boil down to one of two things.  Either it's a "kill stealing issue" aka (i'm not doing anything reeeee) or a "this is boring issue" aka (I wish the game wasn't a horde game.)  I'd love if the game was completely different.  where warframes complimented and synergized.  Where missions had more to do besides making enemies irrelevant.  And abilities complimented gunplay rather than over take it.  But that's not warframe is.  It's a horde game about efficiency.  So the problem at that point isn't saryn it's the games design.  The game wasn't challenging before her latest rework.  It's never been a difficult game.  You've always modded your way to victory because it's about finding the solution to the problem.  Not actually overcoming mechanics or puzzles.  Raids were the only thing close to that.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Off topic but may I recommend deep rock Galactic. It's a coop experience that I've been craving for ever sense warframe changed overtime. 

You're not the first to recommend me that game actually. I think I might have access to it via my brother. What makes attractive to a warframe enthusiast? 

[George_PPS]

7 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Title said it all really, theres a double edged sword in saryn’s kit. It’s not meant to kill fast, it’s meant to be a measured and careful scale that grows with the enemies around it. But no one gets to see that reality because your all stuck in Hydron.

People complaing about saryn, first of all- the game is FAR FAR FAR too easy. If your worried about people “stealing your kills” then you don’t understand that a kill is not something you are entitled to. And if the enemy is getting killed by an initial cast of Miasma or spores, it’s safe to say that these enemies are of such a meek and milky consistency that you could probably kill them by sneezing on them. What I think needs to happen is that enemy levels need to increase FAR FASTER than they do now. 2 hours to get to level 200 enemies is FAR TOO LONG. people are not touching the scaling content that the warframes need to be buffed for, and people are far less interested in pushing the limits of their teamwork and gear than they were years ago. So I say bring the fight to them.

I was ushered in at a time when I looked up to people who had effective gear and weapons and it made me want to grind for it myself. Being an entitled casual just means you lack challenge. Don’t bring down other peoples warframes just because you can’t knock over a weak enemy before they can.

Saryn is not OP, your ALL op, it’s just that saryn happens to just cover more ground in the early levels. Big deal. She isn’t stealing anything from you at all, those kills are nothing to be proud of, she’s literally saving you some time.

Also, to further my point, you have a gun, so for those complaining about her range, why not just shoot something with it.

In the era of players complaining all the points you are making and demanding nerfing this warframe/weapon and  that attack style/spin2win/macro to the ground because they are OP they steal too many kills from me, your great opinion deserves to be highlighted and reposted 100 times! 

[George_PPS]

3 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

I think the other DPS frames need to be brought up to saryns level. Saryn has MANY drawbacks, she just happens to flatten trash mobs. Chroma flattens eidolons and meta bosses, each has its own niche.

 DPS frames in Warframe target different enemies in different numbers and range. Chroma is already in the same level of effectiveness but target different enemies so he doesn’t need to be like Saryn. Instead, each frame should be unique/special and OP in different ways.

Edited July 6, 2019 by George_PPS

[000l000]

Il y a 2 heures, (XB1)Knight Raime a dit :

Saryn isn't anywhere close to being the best frame at the game as a whole as she's only good at one thing which is killing.  And as i've already mentioned she has healthy competition.

Saryn is also damn good at surviving with regenerative molt along with some armor, most people don't build her that way but she can be really tanky if needed. Most frames are only about dealing or soaking up damages anyway, with some extra buffs here and there - Saryn is no exception.

What most players don't get is exactly what OP is about - Saryn isn't a killer, she's far from being the best frame around to insta-kill anything except at low-mid levels - but she's damn good at debuffing all enemies at once (strip armor and half health). What makes her really strong are this debuffs more than her raw damages. When you compare her real TTK she's really atrocious, she needs a lot of time to deal enough damage and also needs to keep some of her enemies alive - many frames deal more damages per sec than her. And tbh something like a full range Equinox, Mag or Volt can totally ruin her gameplay.

[BlachWolf]

Saryn is so good thanks to her dmg types. Corrosive, viral and toxin those are one of the best damage types in the game vs enemies who arent immune to status. The addition of scaling dmg just makes her insane in terms of dps. My only problem with her is her insane range thanks to how spores spreads.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Saryn is also damn good at surviving with regenerative molt along with some armor, most people don't build her that way but she can be really tanky if needed. Most frames are only about dealing or soaking up damages anyway, with some extra buffs here and there - Saryn is no exception.

What most players don't get is exactly what OP is about - Saryn isn't a killer, she's far from being the best frame around to insta-kill anything except at low-mid levels - but she's damn good at debuffing all enemies at once (strip armor and half health). What makes her really strong are this debuffs more than her raw damages. When you compare her real TTK she's really atrocious, she needs a lot of time to deal enough damage and also needs to keep some of her enemies alive - many frames deal more damages per sec than her. And tbh something like a full range Equinox, Mag or Volt can totally ruin her gameplay.

Survival of her level almost any frame is capable of. I use regen molt all the time with her and it with her ehp isn't enough to survive at high end if caught in a pinch because she doesn't have any way to cleanse statuses, no damage reduction abilities, and no cc. The only cc she gets is from activating her 4 and you can't really spam that. 

 

Her debuffing is pretty meaningless because she usually kills things before that matters since in most content what she effects she kills in 2-3 ticks. It's only when she can't actually nuke things anymore where her ability to strip and proc viral comes in handy.

If she had some way to cleanse herself or had some DR skill then her survival could be worth noting in this day and age. But as is I could slap rolling guard on any frame that isn't mod heavy and use my operator to heal. Or life strike/hirudo/dakiyu mod that gives life steal to nikanas.

And pre rework saryn was good as a debuffer because her viral was front loaded on her spores.  So my statement stands. She's good at killing and only killing. Her rework was designed to increase her and her allies killing power. There are much better frames in the survival department and much better buffer/debuffer frames. 

[selig_fay]

il y a une heure, (XB1)Knight Raime a dit :

no damage reduction abilities, and no cc.

Skin to distract the enemy on yourself. 4 has short-term stun. This is a sufficient set to survive at any level.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 hours ago, zhellon said:

Skin to distract the enemy on yourself. 4 has short-term stun. This is a sufficient set to survive at any level.

It appears i'd forgotten that molt naturally sheds status effects.  That's my bad.  As I pointed out you can't spam the 4 to stun due to energy costs.  And the decoy is barely a distraction as even with the invulnerability period to absorb for health it's still chonked through quite fast.  I'm not saying her survival is trash.  I am saying it's not good enough to compare it to most other frames known for survival.  It was once upon a time.  But it's really not anymore.  Because as I said your operator and rolling guard make pretty much any frame mega survivable.  Those who have mass AoE cc of some kind and/or damage reduction skills are the one's worth noting survivability wise.  

[ArcKnight9202]

So, the punishment is that all the enemies are dead and you win? Oh, please, stop the punishment.

The only "punishment" I see with low strength builds is that adding spores to enemies manually makes it hard to build overall damage. It's still hardly a detriment though. It's easy to make up for this with maximum range, too. Also, managing spores is only a problem outside ESO because they burn through chumps so fast that dumping strength isn't really a problem until you hit sortie level enemies. Even with minimum strength, it's still plenty strong enough to eat away most normal and casual enemies.

Don't get me wrong, I like Saryn. She's a work of art. However, I wouldn't argue that this is punishment.

[CuChulainnWD]

18 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Saryn is also damn good at surviving with regenerative molt along with some armor, most people don't build her that way but she can be really tanky if needed. Most frames are only about dealing or soaking up damages anyway, with some extra buffs here and there - Saryn is no exception.

What most players don't get is exactly what OP is about - Saryn isn't a killer, she's far from being the best frame around to insta-kill anything except at low-mid levels - but she's damn good at debuffing all enemies at once (strip armor and half health). What makes her really strong are this debuffs more than her raw damages. When you compare her real TTK she's really atrocious, she needs a lot of time to deal enough damage and also needs to keep some of her enemies alive - many frames deal more damages per sec than her. And tbh something like a full range Equinox, Mag or Volt can totally ruin her gameplay.

Saryn isn't a killer? She is the Queen of death. See what you fail to realise fully about her mechanics is the fact that Volt and in some cases Equinox, kill way too fast instantly that it creates spawn delays. Enough so that a single Saryn v.s a Single Volt or Equinox, the Saryn will outshine them both kill count wise at the end of 8 waves. The slow burn you talk about persists through out the map, killing a bulk of mobs, but leaving just enough for the transition of new spawns, that spawn rates tend to increase. The end result being Saryn having a higher kill count. Agreed, pairing her with a Volt does her no favours, but it does the team no favours either as Volt eats away at efficiency over all for everyone.
 

[Yros]

Le 06/07/2019 à 10:43, (PS4)FK2P a dit :

What I think needs to happen is that enemy levels need to increase FAR FASTER than they do now. 2 hours to get to level 200 enemies is FAR TOO LONG. people are not touching the scaling content that the warframes need to be buffed for, and people are far less interested in pushing the limits of their teamwork and gear than they were years ago. So I say bring the fight to them.

I think this part should be highlighted and even made into an independent suggestion as I totally agree with it. In fact we should spam it everywhere until it gets done, that's how important it is. We live in an era where most players expect a 'mission' to be around 30 mins in average, just like for other games ranging from MOBAs like League of Legends to games like Apex, CS;GO and so on. Having to wait hours for scaling to be meaningful is just wrong. I loved playing infinite missions for hours and gather countless ressources with friends, however not everyone enjoys or simply has the time for play a 2 - 6h mission. Scaling should remain the same as it is right now during the first 5 minutes of the mission, then after the first 5 minutes (basically the rushing period) it should quickly increases difficulty (at least 3 times faster than current scaling). Naturally we should also keep the timing of the rotations in par by reducing by 2 or 3 the time necessary between each rotation (like having a rotation every 5 minutes instead of 10 - 15 - 30 minutes). It would make things a LOT smoother for all players, both new and old, as new players could complete missions within the first 5 minutes as they expect to, while old players would be able to more quickly reach the point where the gear actually makes a difference and it is not just a 'shoot them all' style of play.