Do you agree in having a power ceiling?

[844448]

This is one problem : You have no limit on how strong you can get and you can push as far as you can based on how you build your equipments and knowledge on using said gear to maximum potential, even more that it breaks the world.

This one problem is what makes endgame is something that can be trivialised by numerous things.

As we know, saryn is the most insane one in this and chroma with his vex armor, just some examples of it.

That being said, a limit need to be set (in other words, indirect nerf) if you keep demanding endgame.

Let's say the limit is as listed for example and subject to change :

Saryn : spore damage capped to 500, miasma gets capped to 1000 damage

Chroma : vex armor buff capped at 250%, strength affects gain per shield/health lost

If there's the limit in this, endgame can be set at let's say level 100, where beyond that is considered as no-go zone or death zone where only the best can enter and live another day to tell the story.

In Short, you have 2 choices :

1. Accept the current endgame

or

2. Have your power limited/taken away

Make your choice : 1 or 2?

[Gabbynaru]

Endgame is a stupid concept anyway, way more limiting than freeing. I enjoy the current endgame of "do what you want, when you want, how you want, cause you now have the power to do it" much more than something that you have to repeat ad nauseam for minuscule chances of some barely better loot.

[kwlingo]

7 minutes ago, 844448 said:

This is one problem : You have no limit on how strong you can get and you can push as far as you can based on how you build your equipments and knowledge on using said gear to maximum potential, even more that it breaks the world.

Dont know if you've seen this video but yes OP lol

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by kwlingo

[iLightning13]

Both. Leave the current system as it is, and introduce the Tau system, which could have a way to significantly de-power our Warframes; which either changes the style of gameplay drastically (Hellblade-esque, or some other genre), or reduces the damage we can deal. That'd let us have fun with our super-power frames in the Origin system, then head to Tau and get smacked in the mouth.

 

 

[WhiteMarker]

14 minutes ago, 844448 said:

miasma gets capped to 1000 damage

Stopped reading here.
Who cares about damage when using Miasma? Miasma is for instant Viral on everything in range, and for the interaction with spores.
If you talk about a damage cap for Miasma you just look like you never played Saryn, like you have no idea at all...

[844448]

1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

Stopped reading here.
Who cares about damage when using Miasma? Miasma is for instant Viral on everything in range, and for the interaction with spores.
If you talk about a damage cap for Miasma you just look like you never played Saryn, like you have no idea at all...

For one, miasma deals 400% more damage when enemies are affected by spore, that one is deadly enough when built with power strength so you can only have up to 1000 damage per second on enemies

Or were you assuming it has damage cap on other aspect?

[angias]

il y a 1 minute, WhiteMarker a dit :

Stopped reading here.
Who cares about damage when using Miasma? Miasma is for instant Viral on everything in range, and for the interaction with spores.
If you talk about a damage cap for Miasma you just look like you never played Saryn, like you have no idea at all...

He also suggested to put the hard cap of spore to 6k per target.

 

 

The community will trash the Idea the same way they rejected damage 3.0

[Diangelius]

I don't know how Current Endgame should be defined. For most games, as far as I know, endgame means you can defeat the most difficult enemies of the game (again and again). For MMORPGs, endgame will be extended by new patches with harder enemies and stronger equipment to reach new endgame. But this game, all warframes have their own Limit but the level of the enemies does not. The enemy's level scales to infinity (I think) which means no biggest number, so Current Endgame = No Endgame.

That's my own definition. Endgame to me, in Warframe, is that I can do all content whenever I want, do whatever I want. I'm free !

Of course this freedom does not apply to Community, so... The Community may have the hardest bosses of the game.

[WhiteMarker]

3 minutes ago, 844448 said:

For one, miasma deals 400% more damage when enemies are affected by spore, that one is deadly enough when built with power strength so you can only have up to 1000 damage per second on enemies

Or were you assuming it has damage cap on other aspect?

Miasma applies Viral, doubling the damage of her Spores (her main source of damage)
And if an enemy dies while affected by Miasma, they spread the spores no matter what.
That's what makes Miasma great, not the capped damage it already has. So another damage cap for Miasma is all fine and dandy, but who cares?

Again: Did you play Saryn even once? óÒ

[844448]

Just now, WhiteMarker said:

Miasma applies Viral, doubling the damage of her Spores (her main source of damage)
And if an enemy dies while affected by Miasma, they spread the spores no matter what.
That's what makes Miasma great, not the capped damage it already has. So another damage cap for Miasma is all fine and dandy, but who cares?

Again: Did you play Saryn even once? óÒ

I have, on ESO because that's the only warframe that can keep the efficiency but with specific build you can deal 1000+ damage on miasma alone, before multiplying it by 4 on spore, potentially dealing 4k damage per second on enemies affected by spores while halving their health so what in my mind is capping the damage tick to 1000 regardless of enemies having spores or not, spore spread and viral remain unaffected

[Loza03]

I'm all for better challenge but a power ceiling is the wrong way to about it. I'm more about making it so that abilities aren't just always the best option, similar to how a shotgun isn't always the best option, a sniper isn't always the best option and melee isn't always the best option. Each weapon has built-in drawbacks to use. Once upon a time for Abilities that was energy supply, but that just limited how often we were gods. Just putting a cap on powers is more or less the same thing. It's just an arbitrary limit and of questionable effectiveness. It doesn't necessarily make the game better, just more balanced. I'd rather have an unbalanced good game than a balanced bad one, though the ideal remains to make a balanced good game.

Instead of having abilities be the BFG with an infinite ammo hack that lets us skip the gameplay, I'd prefer if they were... well, abilities, more like how they are in most games. Practically like other weapons or tools in and of themselves, that aren't perfect and somewhat more situational. That way, the kind of big payout room clears or freezes we do now become less blasé and more a reward for good play. More stuff like the Wukong Rework. You can do super powerful stuff with him, but that's a reward for good play or good theorycrafted builds instead of a way out of gameplay.

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

I have, on ESO because that's the only warframe that can keep the efficiency but with specific build you can deal 1000+ damage on miasma alone, before multiplying it by 4 on spore, potentially dealing 4k damage per second on enemies affected by spores while halving their health so what in my mind is capping the damage tick to 1000 regardless of enemies having spores or not, spore spread and viral remain unaffected

Okay, so you didn't get my point at all. That's great. I will try again:

Spores are meant for damage.
Miasma is meant for easily spreading spores and for viral status. The damage is a nice bonus, but not needed at all.
So you wanting to cap Miasma's damage is just too funny, because that's not what the power makes usefull...

[844448]

3 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Okay, so you didn't get my point at all. That's great. I will try again:

Spores are meant for damage.
Miasma is meant for easily spreading spores and for viral status. The damage is a nice bonus, but not needed at all.
So you wanting to cap Miasma's damage is just too funny, because that's not what the power makes usefull...

Spores damage takes time to build up and easy to decay before you can get decent damage from the build up so my play style is spreading spores using toxic lash before giving the big blow

[ChaoticEdge]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Endgame is a stupid concept anyway, way more limiting than freeing. I enjoy the current endgame of "do what you want, when you want, how you want, cause you now have the power to do it" much more than something that you have to repeat ad nauseam for minuscule chances of some barely better loot.

true, adding to the point even end game seem the end of the road it doesn't mean the path is completely block for afterward development could meet even more afterward like for example harry potter books for they have tons season of books and they have ending in their book, so does warframe what they will face ending the game for short period of time until something that must progress another book or season to go on like another example Borderland 1-3 (3 will be coming soon) for 1-2.5 shows their ending side but it was not over not by long shot, warframe face the similar but probably short season ending for its more of finale for the ss 1.

Edited July 6, 2019 by ChaoticEdge

[Urlan]

I would say the premise is already flawed, you see; we do already have a power ceiling. Enemies do not, aside eventually being capped in level due to code limits.

[Tinklzs]

Not sure why players keep making new topics when others have answered this pretty well.

I am an advocate for endgame, but not the type that most are thinking of.

Warframe's structure as a Free to Play game, cannot have endgame where it's the be all end all, where even 5 years from now it would still be a meta thing.

Endgame is something that gives challenge and equal reward for surpassing said challenge. The issue here is the same that WoW has. If you keep pushing your power to a level where past content simply isn't hard anymore, then that's powercreep. Warframe's powercreep is the bad kind, the really bad kind. Where it discards older content like frames/weapons in pursuit of new shiny things, and many mission types simply aren't fun to play or a chore.  

I think we can have what I call 'stage' endgame.  ESO is a stage endgame. It's fun for a time, you play it and then you eventually move on.  Eventually future content would fold back into that older content rejuvenating it, building on lore and adding new onto the old without overpowering either side.   However, I wouldn't design it like they did, a throw-away mentality. Instead I'd focus on AI and making enemies more mobile (which I see some new enemy types via tennocon are going to be doing that in some capacity), make it more challenging to the player, while still being accessible and teachable to newer players without pandering or being too easy for vets.  They say these new sentient beings will be very hard for vet players, I'll hold them to that.  

With games like WoW you do dungeons, then heroic version, then do normal raid, heroic, mythic etc.    Each giving better gear than the last, when you finally get to mythic (assuming you make it that far, since most do not), you then wait a few months to eventually get a new expansion that resets everything, making you grind your God-Tier loot over again.   I don't like this strategy, it devalues the grind and items you collect, even if it's a looter shooter, it isn't Borderlands.

I think the biggest things that Warframe can offer for big rewards are cosmetics, and better amalgam/augment mods that really change up how the warframe(s) work.   The crucial thing is these mission that are regarded as end-game MUST be fun, they have to be fun 100+ times later.  And many of the current missions in warframe are not fun 100+ times later .  

 

TLDR: We need a power ceiling, we can be Jedi on the battlefield slaughtering droids, but we need mini-bosses (equivalent of sith) to help with adding some variety to the gameplay. We can still mow grineer/corpus down, but I find it stupid how they keep experimenting with other factions (alad v with sentient) yet they're just as laughably easy as they ever were.  With a powerceiling, properly balancing rivens and older content (frames, weapons) would be much easier. And finally, with a power ceiling we can finally have teamplay, rather than 1 nuke frame 1 semi-support frame and 2 other kill frames fighting that nukeframe because they can't get any kills. And the Void help poor harrow if he's grouped with a nukeframe.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Tinklzs

[Annnoth]

We just need a smoother power curve. A power ceiling is something you can design around. But not when the top of ceiling to the tiers below has a height differeng taller than the sistine chapel.

If the ceiling is that far and away better than everthing else, you cant design meaningul content because you either 

A. Make 95% of tools terrible because they arent anywhere near as good by conparison by trying to make the best actually be challenged.

B. Its just extremely easy because you have those tools and they wanted some interesting diversity.

I guess there can be a C where they make your choices barely matter by making weapons and such obsolete like they basicslly were in raids or exploiter, but those can be seen as a cop out when we put all this effort into expanding our arsenal just to fall back on barely using it.

That the power is condensced and considered more we can have situations where say, a chroma with a rubico prime can be swapped for a rhino with some other gun and see at least results with a satisfying margin. Still being slower, but not so slow that you basically have to avoid using other stuff you might like because its nowhere near worth it.

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by Annnoth

[844448]

2 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

 

With how nukers scale like saryn, we better cap her hard because with other frames, level 95 is a challenge to kill fast enough

[rand0mname]

No.

[844448]

2 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

We just need a smoother power curve. A power ceiling is something you can design around. But not when the top of the ceiling from the tiers below it is taller than the sistine chapel.

If the ceiling is that far and away better than everthing else, you cant design meaningul content because you either 

A. Make 95% of tools terrible because they arent anywhere near as good by conparison by trying to make the best actually be challenged.

B. Its just extremely easy because you have those tools and they wanted some interesting diversity.

I guess there can be a C where they make your choices barely matter by making weapons and such obsolete like they basicslly were in raids or exploiter, but those can be seen as a cop out when we put all this effort into expanding our arsenal just to fall back on barely using it.

 

Choice C? This

 

[George_PPS]

Your choices and how you frame this issue is just wrong. You are not entitled to kills if others or some frames/weapons do better than you or what you like to use. Only the weak ones need buff. NO more nerfing. 

Players want and like powers. 

[angias]

il y a 15 minutes, 844448 a dit :

With how nukers scale like saryn, we better cap her hard because with other frames, level 95 is a challenge to kill fast enough

You say that like it was the majority of the warframe that are lacking in that field.

Those that come to my mind are ash, harrow, hydroid and vauban.

From what i recall most of the others are fine.

 

You can ask to simply remove the damage scalling of spore. I can't tell if this will be a nerf or a buff.

 

If you go somewhere and the damage ratio is 25% on every member of the squad there is clearly something wrong.

Edited July 6, 2019 by angias

[Tinklzs]

4 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Your choices and how you frame this issue is just wrong. You are not entitled to kills if others or some frames/weapons do better than you or what you like to use. Only the weak ones need buff. NO more nerfing. 

Players want and like powers. 

Kids like candy too, if you let them eat as much as they want when they want they either get health problems down the line (bored with gameplay not being challenging etc) Or they get burnt out entirely and don't want the stuff for quite awhile (complete burnout from finding something to do in warframe, not finding it and leaving for a time, for whatever "subjective" reason).

You can still be powerful like we are now, (yes even with nerfs) but without trivializing any sort of challenge put before us.

Again, I view the tenno like Jedi in the Star Wars movies. Able to kill hundreds of enemies easier than normal troops. However, there are times where their progress is stopped and they must think or do something differently to overcome their adversary. Then in some tasks they do, they encounter a dark jedi or a sith (for us would be mini-bosses that would popup in missions).   These enemies you'd focus your attention on to kill, needing teamwork etc - when done you go about killing more enemy troops etc. 

Right now because of how FAR  in the lead Saryn is (and even other nukeframes) other frames that do similar things are left in the dust. 

Did you know that Equinox has a slow-type build via raidus similar to nova? Too bad it's horrible to set up, taking an eternity and if you die or fall off the edge you need to reset it - whereas nova you can press one button and it has a MUCH further radius.

Saryn vs Mesa - both are powerhouses, but one can delete the map with two buttons, through walls and the other needs line of sight and doesn't scale as well.

Not to mention other frames that have similar abilities where one is completely eclipsed by the other or simply is irrelevant because the meta has shifted. I think it's also poor design to have so many different frames and abilities yet because of how you design your game, many of these frames are dead in the water because what they offer isn't valid in the current gameplay. 

 

[George_PPS]

1 minute ago, Tinklzs said:

Kids like candy too, if you let them eat as much as they want when they want they either get health problems down the line (bored with gameplay not being challenging etc) Or they get burnt out entirely and don't want the stuff for quite awhile (complete burnout from finding something to do in warframe, not finding it and leaving for a time, for whatever "subjective" reason).

You can still be powerful like we are now, (yes even with nerfs) but without trivializing any sort of challenge put before us.

Again, I view the tenno like Jedi in the Star Wars movies. Able to kill hundreds of enemies easier than normal troops. However, there are times where their progress is stopped and they must think or do something differently to overcome their adversary. Then in some tasks they do, they encounter a dark jedi or a sith (for us would be mini-bosses that would popup in missions).   These enemies you'd focus your attention on to kill, needing teamwork etc - when done you go about killing more enemy troops etc. 

Right now because of how FAR  in the lead Saryn is (and even other nukeframes) other frames that do similar things are left in the dust. 

Did you know that Equinox has a slow-type build via raidus similar to nova? Too bad it's horrible to set up, taking an eternity and if you die or fall off the edge you need to reset it - whereas nova you can press one button and it has a MUCH further radius.

Saryn vs Mesa - both are powerhouses, but one can delete the map with two buttons, through walls and the other needs line of sight and doesn't scale as well.

Not to mention other frames that have similar abilities where one is completely eclipsed by the other or simply is irrelevant because the meta has shifted. I think it's also poor design to have so many different frames and abilities yet because of how you design your game, many of these frames are dead in the water because what they offer isn't valid in the current gameplay. 

 

Therefor we need buffs for the issues of the frames you mentioned, not nerfs on the ones that are working. Also,the powers of the warframes are not candies, they are the health diet. We need more of it from different frames ,not taking away what’s working well. 

[Tinklzs]

Just now, angias said:

You say that like it was the majority of the warframe that are lacking in that field.

Those that come to my mind are ash, harrow, hydroid and vauban.

From what i recall most of the others are fine.

 

You can ask to simply remove the damage scalling of spore. I can't tell if this will be a nerf or a buff.

Personally how I"d design her (off the top of my head) is similar to nova's molecular prime works.

Saryn uses her 1 then 4, works the same. However, instead of killing the map, enemies have health cut in half and armor starts stripping. So instead of raw damage, it would be utility (stripping armor).  Like molecular prime gives double damage on all slowed enemies, saryn would strip armor and cut their health in half (thereby helping teammates like nova does) without completely dominating the field.

Every frame can play at sortie level, some will be more comfortable than others, but it can be done. However, it's a requirement to have certain arcanes like Guardian for some frames.

Ash is one of the best scaling frames along with saryn, octavia etc. Nyx scales well too - too bad she's rice paper.

I agree with harrow/hydroid/vauban needing buffs. Harrow is a simple shield gating and hydroid could get a defensive buff after using his puddle ability that makes some damage go through him (like limbo in the void). Vauban throws rework book at him.

 

I think warframe should be soloable but also require teamwork, and it can be done even  games like Payday 2 have done this very well. Having strong weapons and playstyles but even if one is better than another, it isn't very different (if the best is 9/10 then the rest would be in the 6-8 category).  Warframe has squads and I'd argue is a team game, considering their advertising and trailers have more than one WF in them. Meaning, TEAMWORK which we don't have right now; it's either nukeframe + trinity/harrow + nova or something similar.