Pre Rework Wukong Mains feedback on his Rework.

[ZoneDymo]

9 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

Hildryns passive, niduses stacks, oberons renewal and khoras venari bodyguard augment. Those are the ones I can think of right away , nezha with his invulnerability periad before and after his halo is also comparable but not as much as the other 4 I previously mentioned.

All of these abilities you cant abuse, at least not permanently and passively like wukongs old Ignore death button, which didnt even require maintenance.

It wasnt interesting since it gave you immortality, which you never had to manage. It was like activating god mode in minecraft.

Exceedingly good, especially if you had an arcane grace set.

Well yeah lets not bring Arcanes into this...remember the used to be quite hard to get...for a reason.

Non of the frames you mention work like Wukong did though.
The halfing the health constantly was the key unique ability, the temporary immortality was just there so you would not machine gun die all the time.

You could not really abuse Wukong either (to my knowledge), you would have to regain health to be able to stay alive, so yeah with something like life strike you could do well, though if you came up to really strong enemies you would die anyway.

You did have to manage it as it was a constant drain on your energy supply as it was a channeling ability.
Rage could help with that sure but just like with arcanes, maybe we should not bring mods into this.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, ZoneDymo said:

You could not really abuse Wukong either (to my knowledge), you would have to regain health to be able to stay alive, so yeah with something like life strike you could do well, though if you came up to really strong enemies you would die anyway.

No? It was completely abusable. Strong enemies, weak enemies, it was all the same to Wukong. 

And yes, we absolutely should bring mods and arcanes into this instead of examining it in a vacuum which isn't relevant to the game. Mods and arcanes exist and are fundamental components to building your frame.

[BlachWolf]

3 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

Non of the frames you mention work like Wukong did though.
The halfing the health constantly was the key unique ability, the temporary immortality was just there so you would not machine gun die all the time.

I think you yourself dont get how wukongs defy worked, it was just a health gate that gave you lower health restore every time you died. Hildryns passive is basically that but for shields and no restore. Niduses undying literally does what defy used to do, but you have to work  for it since you have to build up your mutation stacks, same thing with khoras augment it restored half of your health but instead of relying on energy and being able to trigger multiple times, it has a timer which you can decrease by killing and venari has to be active. Even oberons phoenix renewal works somewhat like that, though without any recovery functionality.

12 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

Well yeah lets not bring Arcanes into this...remember the used to be quite hard to get...for a reason.

You know any form of healing would suffice, healing return and life strike, both healing source that could heal you in one go.

13 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

You did have to manage it as it was a constant drain on your energy supply as it was a channeling ability.
Rage could help with that sure but just like with arcanes, maybe we should not bring mods into this.

Equip the two rage mods and some source of healing with a lot of duration and efficiency. Voilà, you're immortal and dont have to reactive the ability for like 2h unless you walk into a nullifier.

Wukongs old defy was by far the most passive and OP form of invulnerability in the game, not even another frame could kill you.

[BlachWolf]

16 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Wukong is no saryn and should stay that way. He is playable and balanced. We need more reworks that provide a risk to being powerful.

This, saryn is broken wukong is strong but I would say not to the levels of saryn and mesa. Balance is key in a multiplayer game, regardless if its PVE or PVP.

[BlachWolf]

10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No? It was completely abusable. Strong enemies, weak enemies, it was all the same to Wukong. 

And yes, we absolutely should bring mods and arcanes into this instead of examining it in a vacuum which isn't relevant to the game. Mods and arcanes exist and are fundamental components to building your frame.

This. Especially now that arcanes have been a lot more accessible now thanks to eidolons for a long time. Wukong basically turned the game to a targeting range, were you didnt have to worry about anything.

[ZoneDymo]

3 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

This. Especially now that arcanes have been a lot more accessible now thanks to eidolons for a long time. Wukong basically turned the game to a targeting range, were you didnt have to worry about anything.

The problem is when bringing in arcanes and mods and weapons is that you have to talk about so many different scenarios and you basically speak of an extremely dynamic frame that you build differently every time for every different challenge.

Nobody does that but if you start using that for arguments then yeah, pretty much every frame is similar levels of immortal etc for everything ever.
It becomes a completely moot debate at that point.

"there 1st ability is weaker then their 1st ability"
"yeah but who cares, I use my rivened up Tigris Prime that one shots everything anyway"
"oh right, guess its perfectly balanced then"

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

Nobody does that but if you start using that for arguments then yeah, pretty much every frame is similar levels of immortal etc for everything ever.

No? Not even close.

[(PSN)FK2P]

I’m extremely happy with him, I hope they never touch him now. Perfect. 

[ZoneDymo]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No? Not even close.

Yes, yes even close, name one frame you feel this does not go for.

[BlachWolf]

2 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

The problem is when bringing in arcanes and mods and weapons is that you have to talk about so many different scenarios and you basically speak of an extremely dynamic frame that you build differently every time for every different challenge.

What are you talking about, when balancing a frame you need to take into consideration what it can do. If your build is crap then yes he will be less effective, but thats on you. A frames performance should be evaluated on what it can achieve, not on a build for faffing around. Most players wont build saryn for speed even if you can, they will build toward her spores. How dynamic a frame is doesnt play a roll if there is an absolute best build, which for wukong was his immortal build. Most player will go for that best build and not for crap that bearably does something. So yes we should take into account what arcanes and mods do to a frame, especially in warframe since those are rather strong modifiers.

Just take a look at emmo trin, it was a build that let you kill everything more efficiently than all other nukes, that build got nerfed because it was to OP, even though you needed a specific setup.

8 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

Nobody does that but if you start using that for arguments then yeah, pretty much every frame is similar levels of immortal etc for everything ever.
It becomes a completely moot debate at that point.

Every body optimizes their builds, which involves choosing augments, mods and as you might now arcanes. Thats what warfame is all about.

9 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

there 1st ability is weaker then their 1st ability"
"yeah but who cares, I use my rivened up Tigris Prime that one shots everything anyway"
"oh right, guess its perfectly balanced then"

I'd like to see that godly tigris riven, especially with a 0.55 dipo. That said the tigris while powerful, cant really deal well with big groups of enemies.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

22 hours ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

the fact defy draws aggro onto you when guardian derision is a thing.

Why limit a player to 1 weapon for aggro? Now that a warframe does it, removes said limitations. I dont think wukong should got that ability instead of old defy, but having the ability on a new warframe places less restrictions on players who want to play how they want to play.

Always a good thing caring about your whole playerbase the best way possible.

 

As for the whole wukong rework, could be better but theirs no way id ever use old wukong with buffs to his abilities. Way too boring hed still be imo.

Edited July 7, 2019 by (PS4)Ghost--00--

[ZoneDymo]

1 minute ago, BlachWolf said:

What are you talking about, when balancing a frame you need to take into consideration what it can do. If your build is crap then yes he will be less effective, but thats on you. A frames performance should be evaluated on what it can achieve, not on a build for faffing around. Most players wont build saryn for speed even if you can, they will build toward her spores. How dynamic a frame is doesnt play a roll if there is an absolute best build, which for wukong was his immortal build. Most player will go for that best build and not for crap that bearably does something. So yes we should take into account what arcanes and mods do to a frame, especially in warframe since those are rather strong modifiers.

Just take a look at emmo trin, it was a build that let you kill everything more efficiently than all other nukes, that build got nerfed because it was to OP, even though you needed a specific setup.

Every body optimizes their builds, which involves choosing augments, mods and as you might now arcanes. Thats what warfame is all about.

I'd like to see that godly tigris riven, especially with a 0.55 dipo. That said the tigris while powerful, cant really deal well with big groups of enemies.

see thats my point ,there you go already, suddenly you change the scenario to "big group of enemies"
no problem, ill just change my build to match the new requirements:
Ignis Wraith + god riven
Arca Plasmor + god riven
Amprex + god riven

and there ya go.

Yes everybody optimizes their builds to their design, and then they take that with them, they dont change it all the time for every mission to optimize for that mission.
If you start considering every frame with the best arcanes and best weapons and the best gear items then it becomes rather hard and pointless to start talking balance of a frame.

[BlachWolf]

2 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

Yes, yes even close, name one frame you feel this does not go for.

Can you please stop ignoring everything we've said till now? I can bring you several frame that require a specific setup, atlas require a high dispo melee weapon, same thing with gara and khora, chroma benefits from not having base dmg mods on your weapons, nekros wants you to use slash based weapons and mag works best with weapons like the lanka.

Unless you've been leaving under a rock, then you should know that warframe is all about building up your arsenal and and making effective setups (doenst mean it needs to be meta) for specific content.

[DeMonkey]

9 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

Yes, yes even close, name one frame you feel this does not go for.

Errrr... all of them?

Ember does not have a similar level of immortality that Rhino does, Rhino doesn't have the same level as Wukong who doesn't have the same level as Inaros who doesn't have the same level as Nidus who doesn't have the same level as Excalibur and on and on I could go.

Mods and arcanes don't magically make every single frame immortal.

[ZoneDymo]

1 minute ago, BlachWolf said:

Can you please stop ignoring everything we've said till now? I can bring you several frame that require a specific setup, atlas require a high dispo melee weapon, same thing with gara and khora, chroma benefits from not having base dmg mods on your weapons, nekros wants you to use slash based weapons and mag works best with weapons like the lanka.

Unless you've been leaving under a rock, then you should know that warframe is all about building up your arsenal and and making effective setups (doenst mean it needs to be meta) for specific content.

ermm im not ignoring anything?

I stated "Nobody does that but if you start using that for arguments then yeah, pretty much every frame is similar levels of immortal etc for everything ever."

To which they responded "no, not even close"

So now Im asking them for a frame this does not go for and ill prove them wrong.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

8 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

What are you talking about, when balancing a frame you need to take into consideration what it can do. If your build is crap then yes he will be less effective, but thats on you. A frames performance should be evaluated on what it can achieve, not on a build for faffing around. Most players wont build saryn for speed even if you can, they will build toward her spores. How dynamic a frame is doesnt play a roll if there is an absolute best build, which for wukong was his immortal build. Most player will go for that best build and not for crap that bearably does something. So yes we should take into account what arcanes and mods do to a frame, especially in warframe since those are rather strong modifiers.

Just take a look at emmo trin, it was a build that let you kill everything more efficiently than all other nukes, that build got nerfed because it was to OP, even though you needed a specific setup.

Every body optimizes their builds, which involves choosing augments, mods and as you might now arcanes. Thats what warfame is all about.

I'd like to see that godly tigris riven, especially with a 0.55 dipo. That said the tigris while powerful, cant really deal well with big groups of enemies.

Yea i agree with the other guy talking to you. I dont like being tied down to 1 playstyle for a warframe. Like i love frost but if they made it to where i had to play him for his globe i wouldnt use him as much. 

[ZoneDymo]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Errrr... all of them?

Ember does not have a similar level of immortality that Rhino does, Rhino doesn't have the same level as Wukong who doesn't have the same level as Inaros who doesn't have the same level as Nidus who doesn't have the same level as Excalibur and on and on I could go.

Mods and arcanes don't magically make every single frame immortal.

 

Immortal enough to play this game, yes they do, and dont forget weapons as well, and gear items.

[BlachWolf]

3 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

see thats my point ,there you go already, suddenly you change the scenario to "big group of enemies"
no problem, ill just change my build to match the new requirements:
Ignis Wraith + god riven
Arca Plasmor + god riven
Amprex + god riven

and there ya go.

Yes everybody optimizes their builds to their design, and then they take that with them, they dont change it all the time for every mission to optimize for that mission.
If you start considering every frame with the best arcanes and best weapons and the best gear items then it becomes rather hard and pointless to start talking balance of a frame.

God rivens or not, people will optimize their setup to be as effective as possible,. thats what warframe is about. Remember saryn + staticor or greedy pull mag with mesa. You my sir are extremely naive or completely ignorant about how warframe works, there is a reason why a lot of people do eidolons and roll rivens, its to optimize their setups and even without those powerful modifiers wukong was minecraft god mode incarnate. As previously you only needed a source of healing, mod for duration / efficiency and some health. You could easily put that setup together with new player mods like life strike and you didnt even needed corrupted mods. If you cant accept that simple fact than pls lets stop discussing this, cause there is no end to this, especially after I've brought example you chose to ignore, in a game where build up your setup is what drives most tennos.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

"

Edited July 7, 2019 by (PS4)Ghost--00--

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

 

Immortal enough to play this game, yes they do, and dont forget weapons as well, and gear items.

No, they don't. Your words were "everything ever". The absolute majority of frames are not immortal in "everything ever".

Revenant is an example of a frame that is immortal in everything ever, I'm hard pressed thinking of any others besides oldkong.

Don't move the goalpost now. Everything ever, those were your words.

[BlachWolf]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Ghost--00-- said:

Yea i agree with the other guy talking to you. I dont like being tied down to 1 playstyle for a warframe. Like i love frost but if they made it to where i had to play him for his globe i wouldnt use him as much. 

But you still try to find a way to effectively build towards that ability, his globe and most likely his 4 for armor stripping or tanking with the augment. The other guy is saying that you cant take mods nor acanes into consideration because they are to "dynamic", in a game about building up your arsenal for different play styles. My argument is that you have to take those into consideration because if something is to effective it will be used, for example emmo trin.

Edited July 7, 2019 by BlachWolf
typo

[BlachWolf]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No, they don't. Your words were "everything ever". The absolute majority of frames are not immortal in "everything ever".

Revenant is an example of a frame that is immortal in everything ever, I'm hard pressed thinking of any others besides oldkong.

Don't move the goalpost now. Everything ever, those were your words.

Even revenant has to manage his charges and status can get through his mesmer skin. He just doesnt comprehend / chooses to ignore that most people will always go for the most effective build for a frame, which is evident by the many tutorials and post asking for such builds. 

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

Even revenant has to manage his charges and status can get through his mesmer skin. He just doesnt comprehend / chooses to ignore that most people will always go for the most effective build for a frame, which is evident by the many tutorials and post asking for such builds. 

He does have to manage his charges yeah, but statuses don't matter. He can't drop below 2hp with Mesmer Skin on, whether it be environmental, status or self damage.

[XaoGarrent]

Iron Jab still exists, hold right click and forward while melee attacking.

[BlachWolf]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

He does have to manage his charges yeah, but statuses don't matter. He can't drop below 2hp with Mesmer Skin on, whether it be environmental, status or self damage.

I didnt know about that part, but yeah he's still not comparable to the passive god mode that wukong used to have, since even 18 charges isnt much.