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ReaverKane

Nightwave Series 2, already a poor start...

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It's baffling how stubborn they can be to admit that bad design is indeed BAD and rework some challenges...

Ayatan socketing promotes NOT socketing statues (and not getting Endo as a result) because a challenge might pop up.

Forma extortion promotes NOT using forma until it's challenge time.

Gilding is either the same as above or requires you to waste resources and standing. 

Grove Specters makes you hoard Apothics, never spending them unless there's a challenge up.

 

Come on guys, those are genuinely badly designed. Get rid of them. 

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13 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

Come on DE...
Forma and Gild on the same week? The two worse challenges in the whole Nightwave cycle, and yes that's way worse than doing anything "with a friend". How do you look at the game data and see players gilding items every week? Or EVERYONE using 3 Forma every week? Because that's pretty much the metric you should have for NON-ELITE challenges. And yet here we are...

Most players will have a ton of level 30 weapons or warframes. Adding forma to 3 is not that hard at all. 
Also the new system if you forget will let you complete 3 previous incomplete challenges from the last week. 

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3 minutes ago, xxswatelitexx said:

Most players will have a ton of level 30 weapons or warframes. Adding forma to 3 is not that hard at all. 
Also the new system if you forget will let you complete 3 previous incomplete challenges from the last week. 

Yeah i do, and so what? I'm going to waste the equivalent to around 2€ adding forma to a useless weapon to gain half the standing equivalent to what will award me those 2€ back? is that your argument? Waste resources, for a completely inadequate reward for your effort, on something you don't want. And that's you also assuming that all of us keep buying weapon slots and don't just sell off all the crappy weapons and just keep the ones we have already forma'd.
You're doing the same as everyone else, assume that your way of playing is the only way of playing, and that those that don't are just inadequate. I'm looking at this with a bit of a wider lens.
Huh? What? How is that relevant? If i don't complete the forma challenge, i'll have it again in the next week? How does that help anyone? Its not going to generate new challenges, it's going to let you do INCOMPLETE ones. That's got to be the most useless argument i've ever seen...

 

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12 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

 

However, it is a little bit of a waste of time if you've already levelled up everything.

This. 

It's why this particular challenge is bad and should be done away with. I'll be skipping it. 

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4 hours ago, makaloff95 said:

hmmm but doesnt the previous ones show up after you complete x week elite challenge? but true its highly possible that it will be hard for newer players to deal with the elite ones but as a new player you probably have alot of other things to do (nightwaves will rotate so they will show up again). unless i misunderstood you?

If a new player misses a week or a mission, or comes in late, or even a returning player. You have to complete the current weeks elite missions to get access to the catchup, which makes it useless to all but the hardest of the hardcore players.

 

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So you have to do about 60% of each weeks missions to complete the series.

That means if you are unable to do elites, and I dont think many players at all can do 3 waves of index without allowing a score. And new/returning/casual players certainly arent doing wave 8 of elite sanctuary...

you will need to do every single non elite mission in order to finish the series.. this means you essentially get to miss NOTHING. 

I dont think Ive ever seen a game that dislikes or punishes new players like this game does. 

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1 minute ago, Kconvey said:

So you have to do about 60% of each weeks missions to complete the series.

That means if you are unable to do elites, and I dont think many players at all can do 3 waves of index without allowing a score. And new/returning/casual players certainly arent doing wave 8 of elite sanctuary...

you will need to do every single non elite mission in order to finish the series.. this means you essentially get to miss NOTHING. 

I dont think Ive ever seen a game that dislikes or punishes new players like this game does. 

That's conjecture... We don't know how long its lasting, so we don't really know which % is required... Based on previous ones, you could skip several elites, not all, but most.
Also, doing 8 waves of ESO, after the point where you have access to it, is easy, especially, since IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE CONSECUTIVE (at least based on the Intermission challenges, haven't done any for the current). So they can do 2 and extract 4 times. Hopefully they don't because the good rewards are at wave 8.
I will agree with the Index one... Doing 3 is already a stretch, doing 3 without losing a point, is going to be hard on most people.

Nightwave is actually worse on veterans, by asking them to sacrifice time and resources on things that have no benefit to them but the measly 4500 points they'll get...

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11 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

That's conjecture... We don't know how long its lasting, so we don't really know which % is required... Based on previous ones, you could skip several elites, not all, but most.
Also, doing 8 waves of ESO, after the point where you have access to it, is easy, especially, since IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE CONSECUTIVE (at least based on the Intermission challenges, haven't done any for the current). So they can do 2 and extract 4 times. Hopefully they don't because the good rewards are at wave 8.
I will agree with the Index one... Doing 3 is already a stretch, doing 3 without losing a point, is going to be hard on most people.

Nightwave is actually worse on veterans, by asking them to sacrifice time and resources on things that have no benefit to them but the measly 4500 points they'll get...

Veterans can afford that much easier than newer players, at least they CAN do it, newer players dont have any choice in not be able to do many of the elites. Also doing 2 and extracting is going to tick off stronger vet players to no end.

But many new/returning players dont have access to the mods needed to take on the level 80 or so enemies in the later waves of ESO.

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I don't personally mind these challenges as i'm not in the group of players who've basically formaed everything and has several custom weapons.  However I do recognize there are people like that.  So perhaps they could at least offer a different objective for those two specifically for people who meet a certain critera.

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12 minutes ago, Kconvey said:

Veterans can afford that much easier than newer players, at least they CAN do it, newer players dont have any choice in not be able to do many of the elites. Also doing 2 and extracting is going to tick off stronger vet players to no end.

But many new/returning players dont have access to the mods needed to take on the level 80 or so enemies in the later waves of ESO.

If a new player can't do elites, then he's got more to worry about than Nightwave, just saying.

 

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

t in the group of players who've basically formaed everything and has several custom weapons.  However I do recognize there are people like that.  So perhaps they could at least offer a different objective for those two specifically for people who meet a certain critera.

It's not just that, but you WILL be in that group eventually, EVERYONE will.

 

But yeah, you're both right in one thing... They should have done Nightwave differently, as in, the objectives should adapt to player levels, but one thing's for sure, the Forma and Gild challenges don't fit on either. For one, their reward is too low for the effort it puts on a new player, and it's too limited in scope to ask from players ad eternum.

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3 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

 

It's not just that, but you WILL be in that group eventually, EVERYONE will.

 

But yeah, you're both right in one thing... They should have done Nightwave differently, as in, the objectives should adapt to player levels, but one thing's for sure, the Forma and Gild challenges don't fit on either. For one, their reward is too low for the effort it puts on a new player, and it's too limited in scope to ask from players ad eternum.

True.  Adapting to each individual player would probably be a mess to code.  They'ed probably be better off having catagories of things people can choose to run for nightwave stuff.  That way you can stick to doing the easier stuff but for less standing compared to the more difficult stuff.  Or they could just make everything bog standard easy and if you complete all of the stuff in one week you're given a small set of extra objectives to do that are harder/more time consuming.  But allow you to get a fair bit more standing.

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4 hours ago, BombtailsTheFox said:

i'm sorry, but a system that relies on RNG isn't that much better. Sure, Nightwave has its flaws, but don't you think that the alert system didn't have its own flaws.

lol if you didn't get it that was a sarcastic post 😃  I love nightwave over the alerts that you never able to get unless you have chrome open with the twitter on and push refresh every 5min all day =P

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8 hours ago, Emolition said:

Yeah nightwave is a nightmare  having to put in a few weeks works. The old alert system is so much better of playing a 1+ years to be lucky enough to be online right at the 40min the item you wanted was on. It so much faster and easier to do the alert when you dead asleep then playing when you awake.

More like 10+ weeks.

 

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)reddragonhrcro said:

More like 10+ weeks.

 

still less then years 😃

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Finished all the challenges, dunno what will pop up tmmr, if the challenges don't refresh (not counting the dailies). It's not that hard come on.

Sure, the challenges are inane and suck hard, but they are doable.

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The only changes I feel Nightwave needs:

  • Which Acts you get are tied to your star chart progression, allowing new players to ease into it with Acts they can actually complete
  • The ability to "cancel" Acts you don't like or cannot complete, causing it to cycle to a different Act.

Anybody who feels FOMO over Nightwave needs to calm down. The people who complete every single Act every single week will hit the cap (rank 60) before the end of it, and even have extra standing that they can't use. There's more than twice the amount of Acts you need to do everything. Just play it casually, and you'll get what you want.

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The gild one I can sorta let slide since mote amp exists but even then it's not something fun to do.

But forma one shouldn't exist. New players don't have enough formas to waste on random stuff and I have everything formad to max. I mean I could use wukong prime to get that done this week ( if relic RNG is kind ) but what after that? Save zhuge prime and ninkondi prime and not use them just in case that objective pops up again.

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16 hours ago, Aldain said:

I don't know how they STILL haven't gotten the memo that resource spending is not a good idea for a challenge.

Its not even a challenge, its literally just a resource tax, especially the Gild one because of how stiff the modular system works in Warframe.

"Hey kid, wanna get 1,000 points? It's only 10 million credits, come on!"

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14 minutes ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

"Hey kid, wanna get 1,000 points? It's only 10 million credits, come on!"

-Nef Anyo 2019

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27 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Finished all the challenges, dunno what will pop up tmmr, if the challenges don't refresh (not counting the dailies). It's not that hard come on.

Sure, the challenges are inane and suck hard, but they are doable. 

No one's questioning if they're doable. The question is, should they be in the game. Because asking a person to spend time and resources leveling any item to 30, then spending more resources to guild it, when they already have ALL items gilded, for 4000 points? That's not ok.

Same with Forma, it's just a resource dump, that anyone will see it's not a fair reward, since you get 4500 points for spending 3 forma, but you need 10000 to get 3 back.

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23 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

No one's questioning if they're doable. The question is, should they be in the game. Because asking a person to spend time and resources leveling any item to 30, then spending more resources to guild it, when they already have ALL items gilded, for 4000 points? That's not ok.

Same with Forma, it's just a resource dump, that anyone will see it's not a fair reward, since you get 4500 points for spending 3 forma, but you need 10000 to get 3 back.

From a purely business standpoint, it helps sell Forma Bundles or makes people spend more time playing to farm the Forma, so it's a net plus for the company. You are a player, but also the company's source of income. Of course, they will try to milk you for money.

Also, if the resources aren't going to be used, they will just sit in your inventory doing nothing. They are giving an excuse to spend otherwise unused resources, because if not, these resources might as well be irrelevant.

I don't even want most of the Nightwave Stuff outside the cosmetics and Gimmick mods.

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16 hours ago, (PS4)EyeGodZA said:

Hence my stating that I might still be too much of a novice, and backing up this statement by saying maybe you should just skip this challenge and trust that you'll have more than enough time and capacity to complete other ones that allow you to hit level 30... 

🤷‍♂️

You're missing or ignoring the point that this isn't a nightwave challenge but s nightwave tax. 

Similar to the ayatan slotting "challenge".

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17 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

Again, it's all about planning ahead.

The problem is, planning ahead for this godawful challenge isn't fun.

There used to be this thing in the fanbase called "prime paranoia", way back in like 2015. Why bother putting potatoes and forma into something if the prime might come out? Nowadays nobody has that worry because we KNOW the prime is going to come out. But it's been replaced with another problem: gild paranoia. Oh yes I would love to craft and potatoforma all these lovely kitguns! But Nightwave doesn't count them retroactively, so I have to leave them ungilded just in case

That's not fun. I am sick of this Nightwave "challenge"

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

True.  Adapting to each individual player would probably be a mess to code. [...]

What even the hell...

<code>

if( playerLevel < 10 ) {
    getRewards_A();
} else if( playerLevel >= 10 && playerLevel <= 20 ) {
    getRewards_B();
} else if( playerLevel >= 21 && playerLevel <= 30 ) {
    getRewards_C();
} else if( playerLevel >= 31 && playerLevel <= 40 ) {
    AndSoOn();
}

</code>

It could not be more trivial. Much of what I see Sycophants claim and defend, is really just plain Uninspired Laziness. Period.

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19 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The problem is, planning ahead for this godawful challenge isn't fun.

There used to be this thing in the fanbase called "prime paranoia", way back in like 2015. Why bother putting potatoes and forma into something if the prime might come out? Nowadays nobody has that worry because we KNOW the prime is going to come out. But it's been replaced with another problem: gild paranoia. Oh yes I would love to craft and potatoforma all these lovely kitguns! But Nightwave doesn't count them retroactively, so I have to leave them ungilded just in case

That's not fun. I am sick of this Nightwave "challenge"

*Shrugs* Already not bothered by that. If I need it absolutely now, I'll just go ahead and gild and forma. Everything else, I'll just take my time. Same sort of thing for the Forma one; I have priority stuff that I think I'm likely to use immediately, and a big pile of stuff in the cold storage.

And as I've already mentioned elsewhere in this thread, when I say "plan ahead," I meant I've already planned ahead to when I run out of things to gild, which is still far, far off. The plan is simple: Balla dagger + Covert Lethality + Ivara + Pago at Kuva Fortress, sprinkled with 1 hour to build and 6-8 minutes to do the mission with an Affinity Booster, or maybe double without. I already have the materials to build, like, a hundred of the things.

But I just want to elaborate a little about my "plan ahead" mantra and the purpose behind it: it exists because ultimately, doing too much of something is never fun, and there have been multiple times over the course of the last year and a half where I almost burned myself out on this game; the day I was forced to buy Scindo Prime with plats comes to mind. This is why, for example, I set aside a daily "Special Session" to run one non-regular item - and one item only. This week's Special Sessions are already planned out for me: Sunday: Index (NW) (Done), Monday: ESO (NW), Tuesday: Disruption (NW), Wednesday: Pago for old Zaw, Thursday: Pago for new Zaw, Friday to Sunday: Arbitrations.

Again, I agree, the Forma and gild acts suck, and I support anyone willing to give feedback on this to DE to remove and replace them, preferably with something more mission-oriented. But at the same time, everything has their pros and cons, and this game already has many, many ways to potentially burn you out, and different people will have different tolerances and limits. It is therefore at least partially on us, the players, to manage them ourselves. Life's too short to get so worked up over such a trivial thing as a video game.

I'm not telling anyone how to play their game; "pace yourself and plan ahead" is a general advice I give to avoid burnout and frustration. Apply them to your individual circumstances. Sure, it may not be fun in it itself, but in my case, it simply cleared a space for me to stay fresh and keep enjoying the game. We all got to find our own equilibrium.

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