Riven Enthusiasts, Time to stop the nerfs!

[Lone_Dude]

On 2019-07-07 at 5:52 AM, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Your tiberon got nerfed? Better spend forma, plat, and time to get a new replacement gun. And btw, you're going to have to buy a COMPLETELY NEW RIVEN or ROLL YOUR OWN. That's either going to be a couple hundred dollars, or a few hundred hours, your call.

This right here explains lack of any support from developers lmao. Who would want to kill a golden goose?

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Their are so many ignorant people who don't understand you agree to them changing riven disposition just by playing the game it is kinda sad. Does it suck? Sure it does, but they announced they would change every prime access so arguing riven changes should not happen is blinded and just having Buyers/Grinders remorse. If you spent a bunch of time rolling a riven or spent a large sum of plat on a riven to get a perfect one you are setting yourself up for disappointment you knew you would feel at some point. So instead of complaining about riven changes which you know are going to happen focus on changes to yourself so you don't put to much into an individual riven just to end up salty when it is changed.

[Zectico]

Just because the riven disposition dropped doesn't mean the weapon is completely useless. There is an exception with 100% status shotgun builds, which is why DE has actively avoided nerfing them.

The only argument against messing with riven dispositions is that players spent a lot of resources on the guns and rivens.

But even if the disposition drops, you're still left with a strong, well built weapon capable of killing anything in the game, with an overkill riven that's just slightly less ridiculous than before.

I've also spent thousands of plat on rivens, and I have yet to see a significant drop in performance despite my all favorite rivens being nerfed (RIP Opticor, Tiberon, Akjagara, Corinth).

[DrBorris]

Lest we not forget that Riven progression is... wait... that was an oxymoron. Rivens don't have progression, they only have RNG.

Honestly, until I can work for good Rivens instead of having to pray for good Rivens, I couldn't care less how the market fares.

Oh, and also Kohm Rivens being protected is cow poo. Kohm is already the highest DPS primary last I checked, its dispostion should reflect that.

[Sloan441]

On 2019-07-06 at 9:08 PM, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Not a bad idea, I lost so much plat thanks to its existence. If nobody is super, then nobody is super

Except they still will be. There'll just be less variation. 

I'm not a huge fan of the riven system, but it does allow more variation in what you can use. My main objection is it's too random and you have to largely rely on other players to get what you want, instead of just playing the game. 

However, the system isn't going anywhere. It's here and here to stay. 

The only way to avoid unpleasant adjustments is not to indulge to begin with. Don't spend plat on rivens or even use rivens and you won't have to worry about riven roulette. 

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

(This is my opinion. I dont try to sell it as gospal fact). People are just so obsessed with balance in a pve game for some reason. They're really the ones holding the game back. No matter what you add, they'll call it a "bandaid" or any number of things. That thinking just clouds up the effort to add and improve features and mechanics by causing DE to concern themselves with impossible goals like balance flat-line. This game cant be properly balanced that way and it shouldn't be. Allowing the player to continuously grow and by making elite enemy units less nukable is the best way if you ask me. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by (XB1)Architect Prime

[Peter]

I keep wondering why DE always strives to bring better content while insisting on continuing this ridiculous idea of disposition.

The rivens themselves are a big mistake, either you spend weeks doing Kuva to (maybe) get something good or you spend 99999 platinum for everything to be nerfed at the end of the month.

How hard is it to understand that this only bothers players while feeding the riven mafia? It won't be long before they start selling rivens for real money.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Peter

[Buttaface]

What they really need to stop doing is buffing weapons for several cycles, then turn around and start nerfing them down again. That's a transparent sharp business practice plat sink and if a regular business did similar in the U.S. IRL, they'd be sued/regulated out of existence pretty quickly.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

I at a certain point, rivens no longer matter. What I mean is that a weapon that can kill level 500 enemies without a riven doesn't need a riven nerfed since it doesn't really matter how extreme the riven is at that point. What matters is buffing the he'll out of weapons that can't even face up with level 100 enemies. The idea is that everything can be used for everything right? If rivens are the rout DE wants to take, then they should just strap shotty weapons to a riven and send them to space. 

 

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

I at a certain point, rivens no longer matter. What I mean is that a weapon that can kill level 500 enemies without a riven doesn't need a riven nerfed since it doesn't really matter how extreme the riven is at that point. What matters is buffing the he'll out of weapons that can't even face up with level 100 enemies. The idea is that everything can be used for everything right? If rivens are the rout DE wants to take, then they should just strap shotty weapons to a riven and send them to space. 

 

That that hypothetical is logical enough; though the range of ways to kill lvl 500 enemies is pretty narrow really. Rivens are in the game to give a boost to weapons that DE can dynamically adjust if desired to allow them to hit what they want for a balance by popularity. Not power so much, as the concerns design wise. For me, rivens need to be better than a dual stat to represent potential progression, and to make a less used weapon more functional than an already base powerful weapon, must give a sizeable disposition since for the points and mod slot to do so it must represent raw damage, critical stats, status stats, or some other core weapon stat to make them elevate to a new category. If one compares to them to a mod that just kills whatever you hit as long as you agree to play the certain way, they are not going to be as important, hek what damage mods do much if you are Covert Lethality stabbing folk with your attacks right? The main usage though, could be argued to make these weapons competitive and I think that main usage being hit is at best mixed.

Another problem of rivens is their limited space and large mod points for an effect that might be reduced below the range of effectiveness by disposition changes, but that is probably a different topic.

[Teridax68]

I personally think the winning move in the game of Riven trading is simply not to play. Riven mods are a poorly-designed system where the only time the mods have major value is when they're abusively strong, which is itself an imminent sign that DE will nerf them. The market is extremely volatile and does a poor job of communicating prices across sellers, even with third-party tools around, which further adds to the instability. I honestly think it would be better for both DE and for us if Riven mods were scrapped (with appropriate compensation given to Riven owners, obviously), and if weapons were simply balanced appropriately.

[Jax_Cavalera]

48 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I personally think the winning move in the game of Riven trading is simply not to play

They add a lot of value to the game and could be used as a means of providing almost endless possibilities for fun end game content if something more like: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1109953-proposed-rework-rivens-and-kuva/ were applied to it. Locking down disposition defeats the point of rivens. removing them not only would cause mass exit from players invested in it now but it would take away our chance at having something fun in there. I know we all roll rivens for the same stats but if DE tweaked individual stats on a riven so things like status or fire rate etc were heavily boosted while crit chance / crit dmg / pure dmg were nerfed (on low disposition riven mods) then it encourages players to either use an existing build or try for something more unique as a side-grade.

 

[--DSP--]

On 2019-07-07 at 9:07 AM, LordPantaloonsthe3rd said:

yea someone did, doesnt mean you have to.

But that's how plats come into existent to begin with... Calling people who buy plat stupid is just the more ignorant thing IMO.

[Teridax68]

53 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

They add a lot of value to the game and could be used as a means of providing almost endless possibilities for fun end game content if something more like: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1109953-proposed-rework-rivens-and-kuva/ were applied to it. Locking down disposition defeats the point of rivens. removing them not only would cause mass exit from players invested in it now but it would take away our chance at having something fun in there. I know we all roll rivens for the same stats but if DE tweaked individual stats on a riven so things like status or fire rate etc were heavily boosted while crit chance / crit dmg / pure dmg were nerfed (on low disposition riven mods) then it encourages players to either use an existing build or try for something more unique as a side-grade.

 

I saw that thread, and had replied to it some time ago. Riven dispositions exist to stop people from just focusing on pairing godly Rivens with godly weapons, a problem that has nonetheless happened on several occasions and forced disposition changes. Simply tweaking stats isn't really going to help, because in most cases no amount of attack speed, reload speed, magazine capacity, projectile speed, etc. is going to make those stats desirable, not when compared to crit chance, raw damage, and so on, even in much smaller amounts. I don't see any evidence for the removal of Rivens causing a "mass exit" when players already seem willing to stay even after losing thousands of Plat on Riven disposition changes, and honestly that sounds more like fearmongering than an actual cogent argument when Rivens are generally not very well-liked otherwise, certainly not outside of those Riven trading circles.

[Jax_Cavalera]

48 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

no amount of attack speed, reload speed, magazine capacity, projectile speed

idk.. can you imagine something like a boltor prime with 0.1 projectile speed where bolts almost float in the air so you can "paint" a wall of bolts that have punchthrough.. enemies walk into them and get obliterated as a defensive technique. The reason we can't really start to think about alternative builds like this is due to a disposition impacting all rolled stats the same way.
 

48 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

stay even after losing thousands of Plat on Riven disposition changes

They still have the mods.. the mods still aren't garbage just not as good as they were.. the plat isn't lost it was spent on an item they still have.. which may go back up again next round of dispo changes (or not). This is very different to actually taking the mods away from players so they literally have nothing for what they've invested. I don't see it as fear mongering at all it's pure and simple pain threshold. Already a lot of players find themselves on the fence about staying to see what else DE do, most vets only come back for a week after new content drops just to see if things are better. I've seen this cycle many times over in the years I've been playing warframe, the longer you're here the more you see the pattern. DE have a player retention issue where only fanatics (yeah i'm prolly a warframe fanatic) stick around after taking heavy hits

I've been part of clans that completely ghosted to just me a few times over now coz DE would make a bunch of changes that ruined the primary activities those groups would do: Endless void runs -> Relics, Raids -> deleted, Time walls, grind walls, multi-frame build requirements on new frames etc. Even riven disposition changes have seen their share of departures.. but not max exits yet coz players at least still have the mods they purchased even if their value has been lowered substantially.  My pyrana prime riven still does a good job.. just not a great job anymore.. still beats a lot of my other guns for certain situations.

The only people who don't like rivens are the ones not invested in them you're right. there is a substantial number of players who are invested.. just look at how many unique players post each time disposition changes kick in and thats the ones who bother to even get active in the community.. not a full sample size of the entire playerbase invested in the things by any stretch of the imagination.

[update]
Did a quick experiment in region chat for AU, got only 2 responses back regarding if they'd leave if DE removed their rivens.. both players said they wouldn't leave. I asked if they owned many god tier rivens, one of them said they don't own any rivens as RNG has never given them one.. The other said they own 10 or so but often take long extended breaks from warframe due to burnout (last break went for 18months)

I guess in the case where players are either not invested in rivens, or they have a few but are prone to taking long breaks anyway.. removing rivens wouldn't really be a big influence on that decision to quit... granted that's a very small sample size of 2 responses.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera
new data

[Teridax68]

32 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

idk.. can you imagine something like a boltor prime with 0.1 projectile speed where bolts almost float in the air so you can "paint" a wall of bolts that have punchthrough.. enemies walk into them and get obliterated as a defensive technique. The reason we can't really start to think about alternative builds like this is due to a disposition impacting all rolled stats the same way.

Sure, and for that you end up with a gun that doesn't actually function as a gun. Riven stats like those exist already, and outside of troll builds or Simulacrum videos, they're not used; not because of dispositions, but simply because stat distributions like that are fundamentally not desirable by themselves.

32 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

They still have the mods.. the mods still aren't garbage just not as good as they were.. the plat isn't lost it was spent on an item they still have.. which may go back up again next round of dispo changes (or not). This is very different to actually taking the mods away from players so they literally have nothing for what they've invested. I don't see it as fear mongering at all it's pure and simple pain threshold. Already a lot of players find themselves on the fence about staying to see what else DE do, most vets only come back for a week after new content drops just to see if things are better. I've seen this cycle many times over in the years I've been playing warframe, the longer you're here the more you see the pattern. DE have a player retention issue where only fanatics (yeah i'm prolly a warframe fanatic) stick around after taking heavy hits

This fundamentally understands how monetary value works, and also misses the part where I mentioned appropriate compensation, which by itself would be more than DE has ever given for Riven nerfs. It doesn't matter whether you still retain a mod that looks like the one you bought, ultimately that mod is far less valuable than what you paid for: unless you'd be willing to pay the same amount of plat on that downgraded Riven, you will have effectively spent too much on that item, and so due to deceptive factors outside of your control. This too is different from, say, announcing the end of Riven mods and what owners would be getting in exchange ahead of time. I don't really think you can shunt this kind of change into Warframe's natural cycle of player retention, because ultimately the game's player retention problems stem from a lack of replayable game content after having gotten all of the rewards, not from DE removing items from players (and when they did so in the past, e.g. Stamina mods, it went down fairly fine).

32 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I've been part of clans that completely ghosted to just me a few times over now coz DE would make a bunch of changes that ruined the primary activities those groups would do: Endless void runs -> Relics, Raids -> deleted, Time walls, grind walls, multi-frame build requirements on new frames etc. Even riven disposition changes have seen their share of departures.. but not max exits yet coz players at least still have the mods they purchased even if their value has been lowered substantially.  My pyrana prime riven still does a good job.. just not a great job anymore.. still beats a lot of my other guns for certain situations.

Okay, but then under that reasoning, the game shouldn't change ever, just because some players might not like how things changed and leave. That's not a particularly good rationale, particularly when players keep asking for new content and updates to existing content. In the end, DE can't please everyone, and that's fine.

32 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The only people who don't like rivens are the ones not invested in them you're right. there is a substantial number of players who are invested.. just look at how many unique players post each time disposition changes kick in and thats the ones who bother to even get active in the community.. not a full sample size of the entire playerbase invested in the things by any stretch of the imagination.

But, by those same samples, there is a far large amount of players who aren't invested in Riven mods, certainly not to the point of spending thousands of plat on a single Riven. If you look at Riven threads, including the one you created, the general playerbase attitude towards Riven disposition changes is either apathy, or outright dislike of Riven mods as a system. Very few people defend Riven mods, let alone praise them, and those that do typically don't attract much sympathy due to the often scummy nature of Riven trading.

[Jax_Cavalera]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

lack of replayable game content after having gotten all of the rewards, not from DE removing items from players (and when they did so in the past, e.g. Stamina mods, it went down fairly fine).

This is my point though, rivens are a system that provide players a new and long lasting way to replay that old game content again by beefing it up. Removing rivens would only serve to deprive the game of end game options further.  (off-topic a little: I never cared for stamina mods and the system it was replaced with seemed to be an upgrade by anyone's standards.. did you know someone that quit playing because of that change?)

 

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Riven stats like those exist already, and outside of troll builds or Simulacrum videos, they're not used; not because of dispositions, but simply because stat distributions like that are fundamentally not desirable by themselves.

I would argue that those kind of builds aren't used because the current riven system is geared towards 5 things: Crit Chance, Crit Dmg, Status Chance, Multishot and Base Dmg.  The rest aren't worth as much to be investing in to the same extent because of how a disposition of X means all rolled stats sit within a fixed level.. vs having individual stats having custom min/max levels on a per weapon basis. It's really hard to judge without being able to make builds like that example i provided, I am speculating that if it were possible, then players would give it a go or try new different things out. It might even create totally unique play styles for all we know.
 

5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but then under that reasoning, the game shouldn't change ever, just because some players might not like how things changed and leave. That's not a particularly good rationale, particularly when players keep asking for new content and updates to existing content. In the end, DE can't please everyone, and that's fine.

Well you got me there that's a fair point you make 🙂

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Very few people defend Riven mods, let alone praise them, and those that do typically don't attract much sympathy due to the often scummy nature of Riven trading.

People just want to see rivens become something good not removed. I don't blame riven traders much.. they just see an opportunity and are taking it. I also feel for players that buy into that kind of thing and get burnt badly because the current riven system gives them no real easy way to take what they have and try to make something else good from it.. you're stuck with it unless you want to blow more plat on resource boosters to get kuva and try to rng your way to a unique fun build that makes that investment worth while.

The main reason I've paid plat for riven mods is to get them for specific weapons I am enjoying playing with so i can try make those weapons perform even better.. I've been lucky most of the time that a lot of my riven mods I unlocked from sorties were good rolls early on.. but that didn't stop me re-rolling some of them up to 100 times more just incase I could get something even more interesting from it

[Teridax68]

14 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

This is my point though, rivens are a system that provide players a new and long lasting way to replay that old game content again by beefing it up. Removing rivens would only serve to deprive the game of end game options further.  (off-topic a little: I never cared for stamina mods and the system it was replaced with seemed to be an upgrade by anyone's standards.. did you know someone that quit playing because of that change?)

Do they though? Because there is a limit to the number of Rivens the player can have, and ultimately they just make weapons stronger, they don't really change their gameplay. The weapons Rivens are desirable on also don't tend to be the older, weaker weapons, unless there's some exceptionally abusive combination like a Riven that puts the Kohm at 100% Status and removes its Slash damage. Your comment is also itself precisely my point: Stamina was generally not well-liked, which is why its removal and the removal of associated mods was generally well-received. Rivens as a system are also not generally well-liked and are frequently seen as an impediment to balance and weapon diversity, so I'd say there's a likelier chance of their removal turning out like Stamina than like... whichever hypothetical situation that would cause some mass exodus in Warframe.

14 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I would argue that those kind of builds aren't used because the current riven system is geared towards 5 things: Crit Chance, Crit Dmg, Status Chance, Multishot and Base Dmg.  The rest aren't worth as much to be investing in to the same extent because of how a disposition of X means all rolled stats sit within a fixed level.. vs having individual stats having custom min/max levels on a per weapon basis. It's really hard to judge without being able to make builds like that example i provided, I am speculating that if it were possible, then players would give it a go or try new different things out. It might even create totally unique play styles for all we know.

It's not really the Riven system, so much as the fact that those stats are inherently more desirable than the rest, including on normal mods. Very few builds include stuff like magazine size or reload speed as part of their setup, and attack speed as a stat is only really desirable on bows and melee weapons, because overall the game favors stacking damage multipliers rather than utility, especially when that utility is unnecessary (most weapons will never run out of ammo in a normal mission, for example, which makes mag size mods redundant). This is the fundamental problem with designing a stat-based customization system when some stats are inherently more desirable than others at all times, and in the case of Riven mods it simply means your Rivens will either be all the same (and have the same combination of stats), or will be completely undesirable if they're prevented from providing those desirable stats in any meaningful amount.

14 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

People just want to see rivens become something good not removed. I don't blame riven traders much.. they just see an opportunity and are taking it. I also feel for players that buy into that kind of thing and get burnt badly because the current riven system gives them no real easy way to take what they have and try to make something else good from it.. you're stuck with it unless you want to blow more plat on resource boosters to get kuva and try to rng your way to a unique fun build that makes that investment worth while.

Looking at discussion spaces like these, it doesn't really seem like the general perception is to want Rivens to become "something good", as a frequent criticism of the system is that it is fundamentally flawed, and thus cannot be made good. Unlike most threads that propose to fix some flawed system, threads discussing Rivens inevitably come with requests by some posters to remove them entirely. When discussing a desire to make Rivens "good", I think there's always the question of what a "good" Riven system would even look like: diversity doesn't really seem all that possible so long as Rivens remain entirely stat-based, and adding any more power onto the system would exacerbate the (I'd say justified) criticism of Rivens adding a layer of power creep onto an already severely power-crept game. If Rivens could genuinely add bonus gameplay to weapons and expand upon our customization, that'd be fab, but as it stands it doesn't seem like the system would ever be capable of doing so given its current structure and limitations.

14 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The main reason I've paid plat for riven mods is to get them for specific weapons I am enjoying playing with so i can try make those weapons perform even better.. I've been lucky most of the time that a lot of my riven mods I unlocked from sorties were good rolls early on.. but that didn't stop me re-rolling some of them up to 100 times more just incase I could get something even more interesting from it

That kind of indirectly describes one of the core problems with Riven mods, though: few people actually use Rivens to bring crappy weapons up to par, most people who partake in Riven trading just want to make their favorite weapons better. It'd be one thing if Rivens helped equalize the popularity of weapons, but that hasn't really happened so far, and has in fact made things worse in the case of sniper rifles, which are generally unpopular, but extremely useful already for Eidolons and Profit-Taker, which is why their Rivens got nerfed across the board.

[Jax_Cavalera]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Your comment is also itself precisely my point: Stamina was generally not well-liked, which is why its removal and the removal of associated mods was generally well-received. Rivens as a system are also not generally well-liked and are frequently seen as an impediment to balance and weapon diversity,

The big difference here is that unlike stamina mods that were basically thrown at players left right and center and not even used.. riven mods are quite popular, not necessarily well liked (especially when dispo nerfs kick in) but popular nonetheless and they have a significant platinum trade market impact that would be difficult to easily replace.. stamina mods were not in the same league and are pretty much the exact opposite.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

(most weapons will never run out of ammo in a normal mission, for example, which makes mag size mods redundant).

When you have builds that focus on fire rate to burn through ammo so the DPS stacks faster for various reasons (crits, status procs) you need more ammo and max ammo is a requirement

 

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If Rivens could genuinely add bonus gameplay to weapons and expand upon our customization, that'd be fab, but as it stands it doesn't seem like the system would ever be capable of doing so given its current structure and limitations.

I agree and feel that we need more players to look at the positive side to the system and how we can come to an agreement on what we would like done to fix that. If all we get are mixed responses about how we don't like them or we love them or remove them or keep them but do this or that, we won't get anywhere.

 

16 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It'd be one thing if Rivens helped equalize the popularity of weapons, but that hasn't really happened

Yes 100% this, this is part of what a riven system should be doing. For me, yes I have some big hitters that everyone uses like the pyrana prime riven and the opticor riven, I also have a plinx riven, karak riven, sobek riven, cycron riven and akmagnus (all of which I wouldn't consider to be "popular" weapons but due to the riven rolls i've worked at getting have become quite competitive in end game content and provide really fun gameplay that I prefer.. expecially that karak riven 🙂  

[Teridax68]

Just now, Jax_Cavalera said:

The big difference here is that unlike stamina mods that were basically thrown at players left right and center and not even used.. riven mods are quite popular, not necessarily well liked (especially when dispo nerfs kick in) but popular nonetheless and they have a significant platinum trade market impact that would be difficult to easily replace.. stamina mods were not in the same league and are pretty much the exact opposite.

There is a significant plat trade market for sure, but primarily around a small minority of overpowered Riven mods. Most are considered garbage, and it's not particularly difficult to gain Riven mods from Sorties either. This ultimately makes them a lot less popular than Stamina mods, as the people who commit to Riven mods are themselves a minority among the general playerbase. This is also why current changes to Riven mods tend to not create that many waves, even though they ruin the plat value of several Rivens each time.

Just now, Jax_Cavalera said:

When you have builds that focus on fire rate to burn through ammo so the DPS stacks faster for various reasons (crits, status procs) you need more ammo and max ammo is a requirement

And which builds are those? It is almost always better to stack damage, particularly since status weapons can frequently be brought to 100% status chance. Even when ammo economy does become a concern, Carrier does away with that, so there really is no true reason to mod for ammo, much less dedicate a Riven mod towards that.

Just now, Jax_Cavalera said:

I agree and feel that we need more players to look at the positive side to the system and how we can come to an agreement on what we would like done to fix that. If all we get are mixed responses about how we don't like them or we love them or remove them or keep them but do this or that, we won't get anywhere.

I don't quite see how this response makes sense: what I just said was that trying to examine Riven mods and analyze the system's potential tends to bring about the conclusion that the system is fundamentally flawed, and far too limited by nature to be able to bring about actual gameplay or diversity. Asking players who have done this to just "look at the positive side" sounds very much like magical thinking in this respect, and when that comes into play, I can absolutely agree that we won't get anywhere.

Just now, Jax_Cavalera said:

Yes 100% this, this is part of what a riven system should be doing. For me, yes I have some big hitters that everyone uses like the pyrana prime riven and the opticor riven, I also have a plinx riven, karak riven, sobek riven, cycron riven and akmagnus (all of which I wouldn't consider to be "popular" weapons but due to the riven rolls i've worked at getting have become quite competitive in end game content and provide really fun gameplay that I prefer.. expecially that karak riven 🙂  

How are any of the latter weapons you've mentioned popular? Even with Rivens in place, the Pyrana Prime and Opticor (Vandal) are used far, far more frequently than the Plinx, Karak, Sobek, etc. Rivens really don't bridge that gap, not even with good rolls and dispositions, and I suspect in fact just worsen the difference.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

Maybe rivens should be more common.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There is a significant plat trade market for sure, but primarily around a small minority of overpowered Riven mods. Most are considered garbage, and it's not particularly difficult to gain Riven mods from Sorties either. This ultimately makes them a lot less popular than Stamina mods, as the people who commit to Riven mods are themselves a minority among the general playerbase. This is also why current changes to Riven mods tend to not create that many waves, even though they ruin the plat value of several Rivens each time.

And which builds are those? It is almost always better to stack damage, particularly since status weapons can frequently be brought to 100% status chance. Even when ammo economy does become a concern, Carrier does away with that, so there really is no true reason to mod for ammo, much less dedicate a Riven mod towards that.

I don't quite see how this response makes sense: what I just said was that trying to examine Riven mods and analyze the system's potential tends to bring about the conclusion that the system is fundamentally flawed, and far too limited by nature to be able to bring about actual gameplay or diversity. Asking players who have done this to just "look at the positive side" sounds very much like magical thinking in this respect, and when that comes into play, I can absolutely agree that we won't get anywhere.

How are any of the latter weapons you've mentioned popular? Even with Rivens in place, the Pyrana Prime and Opticor (Vandal) are used far, far more frequently than the Plinx, Karak, Sobek, etc. Rivens really don't bridge that gap, not even with good rolls and dispositions, and I suspect in fact just worsen the difference.

Maybe add more disposition to those underpowered weapons to give them the extreme buffs they need?

[Jax_Cavalera]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This ultimately makes them a lot less popular than Stamina mods, as the people who commit to Riven mods are themselves a minority among the general playerbase. This is also why current changes to Riven mods tend to not create that many waves, even though they ruin the plat value of several Rivens each time.

I feel as though https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1107775-july-2019-riven-disposition-updates/page/25/ 25 pages where most posts are from unique users would be considered as a size-able wave especially when the number of responses seems to be fairly consistent each time this happens: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1078776-april-2019-riven-disposition-updates/page/28/

 

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And which builds are those? It is almost always better to stack damage, particularly since status weapons can frequently be brought to 100% status chance.

An example of this would be a weapon that has good crit chance already.. you don't need a riven with even more crit chance, you can do more from having that increased fire rate and additional ammo.. and if you get lucky sure why not some multishot / crit dmg / raw dmg will help but it's not the important part to focus on. There are quite a few nice weapons out there like the karak wraith that just need larger max ammo and quicker fire-rate with maybe a touch of either status chance boost  or crit chance boost and they can step up to be on par with the soma prime as a fully automatic rifle (without wind up I might add).  Rivens have made this a possibility.  Weapons don't really need 100% status chance to be effective at status procs.. and with guns focusing on fire rate and max ammo.. you're playing a statistical numbers game where those numbers slant in your favour vs just going for a sure thing.

 

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Asking players who have done this to just "look at the positive side" sounds very much like magical thinking in this respect, and when that comes into play, I can absolutely agree that we won't get anywhere.

I'm talking about us redirecting the energy pushing against an idea that has enabled less popular weapons to see the light of day again... to instead focus on how we can make it better with a single aligned goal that works to tweak the rough edges that you and others have mentioned.  Getting rid of something because it doesn't work for all situations is about as bad as when we got nullifiers and other ability resistant mobs in the game.. simply because it was a lazy quick fix instead of creating enemies that have legit counters to specific abilities. We can do better than candid lazy "lets just get rid of it" type responses.

We need more people like yourself who are highlighting the issues and are willing to talk about them, so we can piece together a proposal that deals with each issue adequately. I know you believe there is a correct way to have a riven system that continues breathing life into the currently unpopular weapons and also reduces the negative touch points you've mentioned around overpowered meta.

 

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How are any of the latter weapons you've mentioned popular? Even with Rivens in place, the Pyrana Prime and Opticor (Vandal) are used far, far more frequently than the Plinx, Karak, Sobek, etc. Rivens really don't bridge that gap, not even with good rolls and dispositions, and I suspect in fact just worsen the difference.

That was the point I was making, they aren't popular and yet they are quite serviceable thanks to their riven mods.

Aside from the example provided already for the Karak (see above) another one for the Sobek, It's taken a weapon that would otherwise be considered as doing average damage to something that is able to deliver: 15k radiation dmg, 3960 impact, 660 puncture and slash with 71.2% status chance.  I'd say that's right up there with some of those more popular weapons for sure.

This is part of the issue we have right now though, we've got rivens giving utility to previously overlooked gear but it's still being overlooked by most because all we focus on are the current meta or the already powerful weapons and giving them a touch more juice.. this is something I believe you have managed to highlight really well that needs addressing in the new proposed system.

 

3 hours ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

Maybe rivens should be more common.

It might help though it may just devalue popular rivens without improving the pick-up rate for players using the less popular ones. If the cost of rolling stats was cheaper the lower the higher a riven's disposition.. then unpopular weapons would be easier to re roll for better builds while the meta weapons would give a lot less back in so many ways that it would discourage re-rolling.. though i fear that would simply drive up god roll prices on them even further.

The only way I can see this system getting better is if we remove the RNG from behind stat rolling.

Getting rid of this concept of a "god tier roll" is the first step towards leveling the playing field between unpopular weapon rivens and meta rivens... then having custom stat min/max levels for individual weapon rivens vs a generic blanket disposition will take this another step further allowing meta rivens to give a lot less back from those core stats (crits / status / multi / raw dmg) so they are focused on being used for utility like.. faster reloading / more ammo reserves / fire rate boost.. etc. meanwhile underused rivens gain very good boosts to most stats as is deemed appropriate in the spirit of balance.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Teridax68]

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

I feel as though https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1107775-july-2019-riven-disposition-updates/page/25/ 25 pages where most posts are from unique users would be considered as a size-able wave especially when the number of responses seems to be fairly consistent each time this happens: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1078776-april-2019-riven-disposition-updates/page/28/

Yes, and if you were to actually look at the contents of those threads, you would see that the majority of people there are not actually in favor of the Riven system, and most discussion there is spent amply criticizing Riven mods, right down to their very existence. The playerbase as a whole is visibly not that big a fan of the system, despite the subcommunity around it.

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

An example of this would be a weapon that has good crit chance already.. you don't need a riven with even more crit chance, you can do more from having that increased fire rate and additional ammo.. and if you get lucky sure why not some multishot / crit dmg / raw dmg will help but it's not the important part to focus on.

Um, what? If a weapon has good crit chance, that is all the more reason to give it even more, not simply because a high base means more for the multiplicative bonus to work with, but also because crits above 100% chance stack multiplicatively (i.e. a crit multiplier of 2x means an orange crit, between 100% and 200% chance, deals 4x base damage, a crit in the 200-299% range deals 8x, and so on).

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

There are quite a few nice weapons out there like the karak wraith that just need larger max ammo and quicker fire-rate with maybe a touch of either status chance boost  or crit chance boost and they can step up to be on par with the soma prime as a fully automatic rifle (without wind up I might add).  Rivens have made this a possibility.  Weapons don't really need 100% status chance to be effective at status procs.. and with guns focusing on fire rate and max ammo.. you're playing a statistical numbers game where those numbers slant in your favour vs just going for a sure thing.

But that's not true either, because Corrosive status stacks and, unless you have a very specific weapon and Riven that condenses your damage type to just one, you're playing a constant roulette to get the proc you want, so 100% status chance is always desirable. Moreover, how exactly does a Karak Wraith match up to a Soma Prime, even with a Riven? This is without factoring that the Soma Prime can get a Riven too. The problem with max ammo and fire rate as stats is that raw damage means you will a) kill your enemies quicker, and b) kill your enemies in fewer shots, meaning you get the benefit of both shorter time to kill and better ammo economy. With the exception of niche cases where attack speed is used to accelerate status procs, neither it nor max ammo are desirable so long as one can mod for raw increases in damage.

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

I'm talking about us redirecting the energy pushing against an idea that has enabled less popular weapons to see the light of day again... to instead focus on how we can make it better with a single aligned goal that works to tweak the rough edges that you and others have mentioned.

Okay, but this is precisely the wishful thinking I'm talking about, because the general criticism is precisely that the Riven system has fundamental, unworkable flaws, and has also failed to actually balance less popular weapons (as can be visible from any number of actual in-game missions). To claim that this is all just negative energy and that it should be redirected towards just "tweaking the rough edges" is like criticizing the people complaining that there's a fire in the crowded theater, and claiming that we should instead be directing our energy towards making the fire more pleasant.

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

 Getting rid of something because it doesn't work for all situations is about as bad as when we got nullifiers and other ability resistant mobs in the game.. simply because it was a lazy quick fix instead of creating enemies that have legit counters to specific abilities. We can do better than candid lazy "lets just get rid of it" type responses.

I utterly fail to see the similarity, as Nullifiers were an addition of new content, terrible as that addition was, whereas Rivens are themselves a lazy, rushed, poorly thought-out addition of new content, and removing them would simply revert the mod system to what it was before (which was a functional state). By the way, we also did get "enemies that have legit counters to specific abilities" in the form of Combas and Scrambuses, and neither went down well either.

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

We need more people like yourself who are highlighting the issues and are willing to talk about them, so we can piece together a proposal that deals with each issue adequately. I know you believe there is a correct way to have a riven system that continues breathing life into the currently unpopular weapons and also reduces the negative touch points you've mentioned around overpowered meta.

Okay, and thank you, but the point I'm making is that in order to "fix" the Riven system, one would almost certainly have to make such drastic changes that it would cease to exist as we know it. Moreover, such efforts would be severely excessive when contrasted with the option of simply rebalancing weapons and doing away with dispositions entirely, particularly as the latter inform DE on their approximate power. If the goal is to help balance weapons, simpler and more efficient options exist, and if the intent is to inject diversity into weapons, I think that too would be much better-served by giving some generic weapons unique mechanics, and releasing more bespoke mods like the ones we're getting from Nightwave.

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

That was the point I was making, they aren't popular and yet they are quite serviceable thanks to their riven mods.

Sure, but "quite serviceable" doesn't cut it when far superior options exist. When a non-Rivened weapon can kill enemies more quickly and efficiently than your weapon with a Riven and near-identical gameplay, why go for second or third best? This is ultimately why the system fails, because players are driven by efficiency, and needing a very specific RNG mod just to be on par with the BiS option that is also much easier and cheaper to obtain doesn't appeal to most people.

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

Aside from the example provided already for the Karak (see above) another one for the Sobek, It's taken a weapon that would otherwise be considered as doing average damage to something that is able to deliver: 15k radiation dmg, 3960 impact, 660 puncture and slash with 71.2% status chance.  I'd say that's right up there with some of those more popular weapons for sure.

Which is still utterly crap when compared to a Tigris Prime that deals 15,984 Slash damage, 908.2 Impact and Puncture damage, and 10,898 Radiation and Viral damage, for a total of 39,596.4 damage per shot (while being able to fire two shots near-instantly in succession)... with 100% status chance, which is particularly important for shotguns, because it causes the shot to go from having a X% overall chance to land a status proc per shot to applying a guaranteed status proc per individual pellet. From what you're telling me, your Riven mod also doesn't improve the Sobek's reload rate, which is its main point of criticism.

On 2019-08-01 at 10:47 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

This is part of the issue we have right now though, we've got rivens giving utility to previously overlooked gear but it's still being overlooked by most because all we focus on are the current meta or the already powerful weapons and giving them a touch more juice.. this is something I believe you have managed to highlight really well that needs addressing in the new proposed system.

Indeed, but the solution to that isn't going to be to ask players to pay more attention to utility mods, because utility mods are overlooked for a reason: more damage almost always wins out. So long as one can mod for damage across eight mod slots, there will simply be no space for utility mods of any kind outside of specific few exceptions. Thus, changing the current meta would involve changing the current mod system in addition to Riven mods (and I support changing the current mod system, but the Riven mod system makes that more difficult due to it using a similar stat pool).

 

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

Just throw away the Riven system at this point & ACTUALLY BUFF THE FRIGGEN' WEAPONS LAGGING BEHIND!

It isn't THAT difficult, but obstinance & ignorance prevents DE from seeing past that point. The meta can rot for all I care, rivens are just a novelty that have been losing that feeling so long as DE continues to nerf weaker weapons, all I just want is some form of balance in order to postpone the current state of power creep. If rivens are some form of endgame, then they seriously need a better long term plan.

Power creep...Now that's a real issue in Warframe's current environment. So many weapons & quite a few frames rendered worthless due to the lack of regard for checks & balances.