Riven Enthusiasts, Time to stop the nerfs!

[Jax_Cavalera]

20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

the majority of people there are not actually in favor of the Riven system,

Pretty much, this is why it needs an overhaul.

20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Um, what? If a weapon has good crit chance, that is all the more reason to give it even more, not simply because a high base means more for the multiplicative bonus to work with, but also because crits above 100% chance stack multiplicatively (i.e. a crit multiplier of 2x means an orange crit, between 100% and 200% chance, deals 4x base damage, a crit in the 200-299% range deals 8x, and so on).

I'm trusting we all know how crit chance works. The point I was getting at is that adding more crit chance to the weapon after a certain point brings diminishing returns because you aren't going to get it over that 200% mark without burning away all other dmg types and even then your crit dmg multiplier is responsible for controlling how much real value you get from a 100%, 200%, 300%, etc. crit chance. Most riven mods for weapons with high base crit chance, have a low disposition so you won't be squeezing a lot of extra crit chance out of them.

If you are getting diminishing returns from a focus on crit chance, why not put more effort into boosting other stats that can significantly increase your DPS?  Fire Rate, Extra Ammo, Mag Size... this kind of thing allows you to pump out more shots per second meaning you get to re-roll the above mentioned mechanics more times on an enemy. It's a pretty standard way of increasing a weapon's DPS consistently.  Consistently is the key word there because "on headshot...", "on kill...", etc. type mods aren't a consistent way of boosting crits.

Anyway your point is valid and I fully agree more crit chance is always great... just at a certain point what that costs falls down to diminishing returns where the mod space could be better spent going after those other stats I mentioned.. so in the context of a riven mod, if DE were able to lower specific stats and boost others (lower the crit chance on a low disposition weapon.. but increase the fire rate, max ammo, mag size, etc) then players would go after that type of thing in their builds as it still provides a good consistent way to get higher DPS without touching the crit multiplication stats any further.

20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Moreover, how exactly does a Karak Wraith match up to a Soma Prime, even with a Riven? This is without factoring that the Soma Prime can get a Riven too.

I've used it in comparisons with a Soma Prime and the soma is a tad in front of the karak due to having much better base crit stats. Don't own a soma p riven, but from what I heard it doesn't really add a lot more bang for buck due to the low disposition. As to actual numbers idk, did this test about 4 or 5 months ago now.. all I remember is that the soma was killing the same level enemies as the karak only a half second or so faster. I'm not saying it's ever going to be better than the soma prime, just that it becomes an option you could take.

20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but "quite serviceable" doesn't cut it when far superior options exist. When a non-Rivened weapon can kill enemies more quickly and efficiently than your weapon with a Riven and near-identical gameplay, why go for second or third best?

It's not like you can "extra kill" an enemy it's either dead or it's not right? like sure one of the weapons will go further.. but unless we have endless content that rewards better and better the longer you go beyond the point where a well modded regular version of a god tier weapon without a riven can go.. then having these other previously useless weapons also become viable ;at that point means you have more choices. If you prefer the gameplay when using weapon X but weapon Y deals overkill damage, you can either "extra kill" the enemy and have a less enjoyable gameplay experience, or you can just kill it and have a really enjoyable gameplay experience.

20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So long as one can mod for damage across eight mod slots, there will simply be no space for utility mods of any kind outside of specific few exceptions.

Pretty much yeah that's been my underlying point here. While DE are applying blanket disposition buffs / nerfs to all stats on a riven mod.. players won't have any reason to go for those other stats.. if DE adjusted specific stats on a riven, then for weapons with already high obvious dmg boosting stats, the riven would give little back in boosting that dmg further.. but it could give VERY NICE QOL / Utility stats to the weapon which gives that gun a potentially new gameplay style that may appeal to some players.   For those underused weapons, they could get more adequate buffs across the board or where it makes sense giving DE a fine toothed comb to balance with.

 

19 hours ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Just throw away the Riven system at this point & ACTUALLY BUFF THE FRIGGEN' WEAPONS LAGGING BEHIND!

The more I've been looking into this stuff the more it has become clear that there's a reason DE opted for rivens over doing that. Early game content would become dull and lack any real challenge for a new player if the mk1 or base weapons they get were dealing End Game Weapon dmg.  Rivens have minimum MR requirements and this means DE can be reasonably sure that a player holding one of these rivens has already moved beyond that low starter content before they can use the riven. This emphasizes the point that riven mods exist as a means of enabling the early game, lower dmg, underused gear to have a "second life", a second chance at being used in the game again.

The mistakes they made are:

• Blanket stat buffs / nerfs since it makes it difficult to effectively control the balancing of such a system.
  • End game weapons don't need more dmg boosting stats.. but could do with some nice Quality of Life (QOL) boosts.
  • Early game weapons could benefit from both QOL and dmg boosting stats.
• Heavy dependency on RNG since again it makes it harder to effectively control the balancing of such a system.
  • Are players using stat X because they wanted it, or is it just because they got one or 2 good stats and didn't want to risk going after any others due to the costs involved in re-rolling riven mods?

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Pretty much, this is why it needs an overhaul.

Okay, but what does that mean? What does it mean to overhaul the Riven mod system? What does a perfect Riven mod system achieve that no other existing system can?

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I'm trusting we all know how crit chance works. The point I was getting at is that adding more crit chance to the weapon after a certain point brings diminishing returns because you aren't going to get it over that 200% mark without burning away all other dmg types and even then your crit dmg multiplier is responsible for controlling how much real value you get from a 100%, 200%, 300%, etc. crit chance. Most riven mods for weapons with high base crit chance, have a low disposition so you won't be squeezing a lot of extra crit chance out of them.

If you are getting diminishing returns from a focus on crit chance, why not put more effort into boosting other stats that can significantly increase your DPS?  Fire Rate, Extra Ammo, Mag Size... this kind of thing allows you to pump out more shots per second meaning you get to re-roll the above mentioned mechanics more times on an enemy. It's a pretty standard way of increasing a weapon's DPS consistently.  Consistently is the key word there because "on headshot...", "on kill...", etc. type mods aren't a consistent way of boosting crits.

This doesn't make any sense, because ultimately the "diminishing returns" simply come from overcommitting to crit chance in situations where increasing one's raw damage, e.g. through elemental mods, multishot, etc. would be more beneficial -- in other words, you are simply affirming why there is a subset of "god-tier" stats for Rivens. Extra ammo doesn't increase DPS, and extra mag size only increases DPS by a small amount over a protracted period of time, at which point the player is likely to reload early in-between bouts and thus waste the mod. Fire rate boosts DPS, but at a cost in ammo economy, which simply isn't desirable when stuff like more crit, more raw damage, more multishot, etc. all increase DPS and ammo economy.

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Anyway your point is valid and I fully agree more crit chance is always great... just at a certain point what that costs falls down to diminishing returns where the mod space could be better spent going after those other stats I mentioned.. so in the context of a riven mod, if DE were able to lower specific stats and boost others (lower the crit chance on a low disposition weapon.. but increase the fire rate, max ammo, mag size, etc) then players would go after that type of thing in their builds as it still provides a good consistent way to get higher DPS without touching the crit multiplication stats any further.

Okay, but as described above, if you just nerf Rivens so that the good stats only come in small amounts, and the rest is just utility mods, Riven mods as a whole will simply not be desirable in an environment where regular mods would be able to provide bigger increases in raw damage. So long as utility is generally undesirable (and it is), that will also be the case on Riven mods.

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I've used it in comparisons with a Soma Prime and the soma is a tad in front of the karak due to having much better base crit stats. Don't own a soma p riven, but from what I heard it doesn't really add a lot more bang for buck due to the low disposition. As to actual numbers idk, did this test about 4 or 5 months ago now.. all I remember is that the soma was killing the same level enemies as the karak only a half second or so faster. I'm not saying it's ever going to be better than the soma prime, just that it becomes an option you could take.

Half a second or so per individual enemy is a huge difference, as most enemies die within a second or so anyway even at higher levels.

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

It's not like you can "extra kill" an enemy it's either dead or it's not right? like sure one of the weapons will go further.. but unless we have endless content that rewards better and better the longer you go beyond the point where a well modded regular version of a god tier weapon without a riven can go.. then having these other previously useless weapons also become viable ;at that point means you have more choices. If you prefer the gameplay when using weapon X but weapon Y deals overkill damage, you can either "extra kill" the enemy and have a less enjoyable gameplay experience, or you can just kill it and have a really enjoyable gameplay experience.

When your weapon is an ammo-hungry bullet hose, killing an enemy in two shots as opposed to three makes a difference, which is why more damage is always more desirable there. The fact that higher-end missions have enemies with more health, and endless missions endlessly scale up enemy EHP, both reinforce the notion that there is no such thing as overkill damage. 

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Pretty much yeah that's been my underlying point here. While DE are applying blanket disposition buffs / nerfs to all stats on a riven mod.. players won't have any reason to go for those other stats.. if DE adjusted specific stats on a riven, then for weapons with already high obvious dmg boosting stats, the riven would give little back in boosting that dmg further.. but it could give VERY NICE QOL / Utility stats to the weapon which gives that gun a potentially new gameplay style that may appeal to some players.   For those underused weapons, they could get more adequate buffs across the board or where it makes sense giving DE a fine toothed comb to balance with.

You could give Riven mods the ability to give weapons literal infinite magazine size and it would still not be valued higher than a raw increase in damage, unless the damage bonus is so weak as to essentially not exist. Again, the problem isn't simply that Rivens give too much damage and too little utility, but that utility in general is not valued that much on mods, not when compared to raw damage.

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The more I've been looking into this stuff the more it has become clear that there's a reason DE opted for rivens over doing that. Early game content would become dull and lack any real challenge for a new player if the mk1 or base weapons they get were dealing End Game Weapon dmg.

If that were the case... why not just buff the health of starting enemies? Would that not in fact make balance easier if enemies were all adjusted around comparable damage output, instead of there being this immense spread of damage values where one weapon can deal hundreds or thousands of times more damage than another?

 

[Jax_Cavalera]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

why not just buff the health of starting enemies?

Guessing it is tied in with how enemies scale based on their level. Otherwise I am sure this would have been the obvious fix.

The point about DPS is he damage per second.  This is directly tied to the fire rate of a weapon.

There is little value in a weapon that deals crazy dmg with a slow fire rate in a hoard shooter; unless it deals AOE. It might deal lots of dmg per second.. to one enemy. Meanwhile the rest of the hoard steamroll through.

Now we have established the value of fire rate.. to sustain a high rate of fire will tax other stats.

Max ammo, Mag size, Reload speed to name he main 3 that come to mind.

(sorry on phone so harder to quote) what it means to overhaul rivens is just that. Keep what their purpose adds.. ability to reuse early game gear end game and fix what is objectively broken

Edited August 7, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Guessing it is tied in with how enemies scale based on their level. Otherwise I am sure this would have been the obvious fix.

But if it were just a question of enemy scaling, one could simply raise the base and reduce the scaling per level, so it wouldn't be at all complicated in this respect. I suspect the actual reason why we haven't seen a rebalance to weapons and enemies is simply because DE themselves see a need to make certain weapons stronger than others, as noted during their last mass balance patch where they specifically made most low-MR weapons less powerful than those unlocked later. In this respect, the problem doesn't come from a technical difficulty, but simply from a conflict of design philosophies, even though there is a fundamental contradiction between having a perfectly balanced and diverse arsenal, and implementing progression in the form of more raw power when unlocking stronger weapons.

Quote

The point about DPS is he damage per second.  This is directly tied to the fire rate of a weapon.

I am well aware; my point is that increasing a weapon's fire rate makes it chew through ammo faster, which hurts its ammo economy. By contrast, increasing a weapon's damage by the same amount not only increases its DPS (and you can in fact achieve higher DPS increases through smaller increases in damage, since you'd have to reload less), but also causes each shot to be worth more in terms of damage, thereby improving the weapon's ammo economy. This is why more damage, crit, multishot, etc. is innately more desirable than more firing rate.

Quote

There is little value in a weapon that deals crazy dmg with a slow fire rate in a hoard shooter; unless it deals AOE. It might deal lots of dmg per second.. to one enemy. Meanwhile the rest of the hoard steamroll through.

Sure, but how many weapons are truly slow? Even the Tigris Prime, a weapon with a large-ish reload time in-between its two quick-firing shots, ends up being perfectly capable at ripping through hordes with just Seeking Fury, and otherwise a full complement of damage mods. The only properly slow weapons in this game are launchers, which do in fact apply AoE, and so very few weapons ever need increased firing rate.

Quote

Now we have established the value of fire rate.. to sustain a high rate of fire will tax other stats.

Max ammo, Mag size, Reload speed to name he main 3 that come to mind.

(sorry on phone so harder to quote) what it means to overhaul rivens is just that. Keep what their purpose adds.. ability to reuse early game gear end game and fix what is objectively broken

There is a fairly obvious problem with what you're suggesting, in that you're asking the player to equip three generally undesirable stats just to make up for the tradeoffs of another, less-than-desirable stat. Even if fire rate really were as valuable as you made it out to be, devoting so much to compensate for it really isn't that great when compared to increased damage, crit, or multishot, none of which need compensatory stats.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Teridax68

[Jax_Cavalera]

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I suspect the actual reason why we haven't seen a rebalance to weapons and enemies is simply because DE themselves see a need to make certain weapons stronger than others,

You may be right, I might be right, the truth may be somewhere in between all this. I suppose all we can know for sure is that DE don't seem to be of the opinion that making all weapons the same strength via base stat adjustments is how they would like to achieve that goal. Based on what you observed it does seem like they want new weapons to remain low powered for players and then allow veterans to use some kind of system (riven mods) to buff up the stats so those weapons get a 2nd chance at being reused.

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I am well aware; my point is that increasing a weapon's fire rate makes it chew through ammo faster,

I can see how that may have come across as being condescending, I genuinely wasn't 100% certain if you were getting what I was putting down about it being an alternative way to increase DPS but seems you were. Text can be a little difficult to communicate with at times 😞 .

I do get what you are meaning as well about how there are other ways to boost DPS such as just adding more damage per round being fired, for weapons with slow reload, fire rate or small magazine size.. those utilities can provide a significant overall boost to DPS that simply adding even more damage won't achieve.. the Opticor is a good example of a weapon like this.

From where I'm looking at all this there are 2 types of playstyles:

1. Strong in 1 on 1 type situations
   • Pure dmg will be preferable in almost all cases here with a few outliers
2. Strong against hoards
   • If weapons lack in any of those key utility areas, then utility stats will be preferable to a certain degree over pure dmg

Not all enemies or scenarios fit into 1 or the other, Certain warframes compliment one type of playstyle over the other as well, being able to use the same weapon in both cases simply by having access to a riven mod that can be designed to suit at the cost of a single mod slot sounds like a win win. Right now though if the dmg stats on a riven mod get nerfed, so do the utility stats meaning the current system has at least one clear issue that needs addressing.

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but how many weapons are truly slow?

To name a few by fire rate:

• Lanka
• Arca Plasmor
• Corinth
• Ferrox
• Vulkar
• Vectis
• Grinlok
• Hek
• Snipetron

And by reload speed:

• Strun
• Snipertron
• Vulkar
• Arca Plasmor
• Rubico
• Drakgoon
• Corinth
• Nagantaka

Which isn't to say they're all bad as some of these have decent magazine capacity which can counter the reload speed in most cases but anything with a reload of 2sec or higher and a mag size of 10 or lower likely falls into that "slow" category where it will be only good for those single target scenarios.. but with a riven that could boost the utility way higher at the cost of a mod spot that would have otherwise gone to dmg.. it deals less sure but can now be used in a totally different context than before which is pretty cool right?

[Teridax68]

22 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

You may be right, I might be right, the truth may be somewhere in between all this. I suppose all we can know for sure is that DE don't seem to be of the opinion that making all weapons the same strength via base stat adjustments is how they would like to achieve that goal. Based on what you observed it does seem like they want new weapons to remain low powered for players and then allow veterans to use some kind of system (riven mods) to buff up the stats so those weapons get a 2nd chance at being reused.

But based on what I observed, I don't think that's the case, because ultimately the Riven mod system fails to adequately bring older weapons up to par. Considering how rushed the system was, and how intensely it was foisted upon trading right from the start, I suspect the more cynical reason behind the existence of Rivens was simply to stimulate plat trading: it is the only aspect of Riven mods that they have achieved successfully thus far, though even then that effectiveness is waning now that people are cottoning onto the fact that god Rivens don't stay godly forever.

22 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I can see how that may have come across as being condescending, I genuinely wasn't 100% certain if you were getting what I was putting down about it being an alternative way to increase DPS but seems you were. Text can be a little difficult to communicate with at times 😞 .

No worries, that I can fully understand. I don't think you were being condescending, either. 

22 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I do get what you are meaning as well about how there are other ways to boost DPS such as just adding more damage per round being fired, for weapons with slow reload, fire rate or small magazine size.. those utilities can provide a significant overall boost to DPS that simply adding even more damage won't achieve.. the Opticor is a good example of a weapon like this.

I don't think the Opticor is a good example, because the Opticor is a niche weapon that is, among other things, uniquely defined by its infamously long charge time. Speeding that up via mods is thus a necessary convenience to make the weapon more usable, rather than a generally applicable means of increasing DPS. Case in point: the Opticor Vandal, which has a much faster charge rate, is hardly ever built with fire rate mods, because it fires sufficiently quickly as to not feel like it needs that kind of utility. Not only is the Opticor not a representative example, it actually illustrates the fact that the weapons in need of faster firing rates tend to be fairly niche. I also don't really think there's all that much room for firing rate mods when your build will typically include at least two mandatory mods for damage and multishot, then between four and six mods for raw damage on top of that (e.g. crit chance and damage + one or two pairs of elemental mods, or four elemental status mods), with the remaining mods frequently accommodating more damage increases such as Vigilante Armaments.

22 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

From where I'm looking at all this there are 2 types of playstyles:

1. Strong in 1 on 1 type situations
   • Pure dmg will be preferable in almost all cases here with a few outliers
2. Strong against hoards
   • If weapons lack in any of those key utility areas, then utility stats will be preferable to a certain degree over pure dmg

Not all enemies or scenarios fit into 1 or the other, Certain warframes compliment one type of playstyle over the other as well, being able to use the same weapon in both cases simply by having access to a riven mod that can be designed to suit at the cost of a single mod slot sounds like a win win. Right now though if the dmg stats on a riven mod get nerfed, so do the utility stats meaning the current system has at least one clear issue that needs addressing.

But more damage works better against both individual enemies and hordes, so the distinction is moot. A Tigris Prime can obliterate single targets and crowds alike with the proper build, and the same can be said for a Maiming Strike Atterax. In both cases, damage still wins out against utility, as all the utility in the world won't do anything if you can't kill the horde fast enough.

22 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

To name a few by fire rate:

• Lanka
• Arca Plasmor
• Corinth
• Ferrox
• Vulkar
• Vectis
• Grinlok
• Hek
• Snipetron

And by reload speed:

• Strun
• Snipertron
• Vulkar
• Arca Plasmor
• Rubico
• Drakgoon
• Corinth
• Nagantaka

Which isn't to say they're all bad as some of these have decent magazine capacity which can counter the reload speed in most cases but anything with a reload of 2sec or higher and a mag size of 10 or lower likely falls into that "slow" category where it will be only good for those single target scenarios.. but with a riven that could boost the utility way higher at the cost of a mod spot that would have otherwise gone to dmg.. it deals less sure but can now be used in a totally different context than before which is pretty cool right?

Except snipers have arcanes specifically made to increase reloading speed, which renders Rivens for that same purpose redundant, whereas shotguns like the Corinth and Arca Plasmor are well-suited to killing crowds, so their slower reload times are fine. In all cases, pure damage builds tend to work better, with perhaps the one exception of the Lanka, whose slow charge time puts a demand for more firing rate. Again, these are just a handful of weapons among literal hundreds, and even then it's not particularly desirable to take out a damage mod for greater firing or reload speed, let alone magazine size, for the majority of them.

[Jax_Cavalera]

28 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I suspect the more cynical reason behind the existence of Rivens was simply to stimulate plat trading: it is the only aspect of Riven mods that they have achieved successfully thus far, though even then that effectiveness is waning now that people are cottoning onto the fact that god Rivens don't stay godly forever.

hahaha yep I really hope this wasn't a reason behind it .. but if it were one.. then yes that's definitely met and exceeded their goals for sure 🙂

28 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But more damage works better against both individual enemies and hordes, so the distinction is moot. A Tigris Prime can obliterate single targets and crowds alike with the proper build, and the same can be said for a Maiming Strike Atterax. In both cases, damage still wins out against utility, as all the utility in the world won't do anything if you can't kill the horde fast enough.

I guess we've had different experiences here, too often i've had powerful weapons that simply couldn't kill quick enough in a survival to get me enough life support to keep going coz each kill is a numbers game for that Life Support droprate. It's true that if you can outlast the suffocation threat to make it to the higher level enemies, then having a harder hitting weapon becomes more favorable.

That list was in no way comprehensive of all weapons, but a quick look at the comparison table shows there to be quite a lot more which fall into that 2second or longer reload time category: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Weapon_Comparison

I spend a lot of time in the simulacrum testing out various utility mods to see if it makes a difference or how it can change the way I might use a certain weapon. It really is going to boil down to subjective preferences at the end of the day. To me, if I'm doing a fixed difficulty mission, then any weapon that can kill the toughest mob in 1 shot is enough dmg.. so adding QOL utility to it for diverse playstyle beyond that point is where I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of rivens.. they have helped to provide the same kind of buffs i'd normally gotten from 2 or 3 mods in 1 mod-spot meaning I can really get experimental with the remainder.

You are probably right though, I'm the exception not the rule.. maybe most players are more about getting that overkill damage against fixed difficulty mob missions  than they are about trying new things.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Teridax68]

18 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I guess we've had different experiences here, too often i've had powerful weapons that simply couldn't kill quick enough in a survival to get me enough life support to keep going coz each kill is a numbers game for that Life Support droprate. It's true that if you can outlast the suffocation threat to make it to the higher level enemies, then having a harder hitting weapon becomes more favorable.

This raises a lot of questions: which weapons were you using, which frame, which mods? Considering how some builds let people run Survival for literal hours without even needing to kill enemies particularly quickly, it may simply be a strategic problem, especially as I fail to see how lowering your damage even further would have helped in this situation.

18 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

That list was in no way comprehensive of all weapons, but a quick look at the comparison table shows there to be quite a lot more which fall into that 2second or longer reload time category: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Weapon_Comparison

Okay, but how many of those weapons actually get modded for faster reloading? Like I said already, even the weapons you listed typically don't have mod slots used for quicker reload times, so why should the rest be any different?

18 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I spend a lot of time in the simulacrum testing out various utility mods to see if it makes a difference or how it can change the way I might use a certain weapon. It really is going to boil down to subjective preferences at the end of the day. To me, if I'm doing a fixed difficulty mission, then any weapon that can kill the toughest mob in 1 shot is enough dmg.. so adding QOL utility to it for diverse playstyle beyond that point is where I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of rivens.. they have helped to provide the same kind of buffs i'd normally gotten from 2 or 3 mods in 1 mod-spot meaning I can really get experimental with the remainder.

Okay, but then using a Riven just to run content in the Star Chart is itself a tad overkill. It also ultimately doesn't really say anything about the value of utility, since everything is viable at the Star Chart level. Meanwhile, higher-level missions will require more damage, which is why more damage always prevails.

18 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

You are probably right though, I'm the exception not the rule.. maybe most players are more about getting that overkill damage against fixed difficulty mob missions  than they are about trying new things.

I don't think it's about getting overkill damage, so much as getting the most damage possible, because at higher levels you're not really going to be dealing that much overkill damage, or any at all. Meanwhile, utility at that level falls off because faster reloads, more ammo, and so on won't let you kill enemies before they can shoot, and therefore kill you.

[Jax_Cavalera]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

This raises a lot of questions: which weapons were you using, which frame, which mods? Considering how some builds let people run Survival for literal hours without even needing to kill enemies particularly quickly, it may simply be a strategic problem, especially as I fail to see how lowering your damage even further would have helped in this situation.

It's not about the level of damage, in those cases it's about the weapon simply not being able to kill mobs quick enough. A lot of the bows suffer from this, as do snipers, you take out a few but it's nothing like when you use an automatic rifle or an aoe type weapon (lenz is the exclusion there of course that thing is great)

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but how many of those weapons actually get modded for faster reloading? Like I said already, even the weapons you listed typically don't have mod slots used for quicker reload times, so why should the rest be any different?

Not a lot, which is why they're unpopular for endgame. it's what I'm also trying to get at; people throw mods on to make it deal more dmg but that destroys it's utility further coz just having damage means nothing if it can't actually be used in a meaningful way. A riven that boost utility is the game changer then since you can still mod hard for dmg and get utility at a single mod spot.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but then using a Riven just to run content in the Star Chart is itself a tad overkill. It also ultimately doesn't really say anything about the value of utility, since everything is viable at the Star Chart level.

Idk about that, the mobs in the orb on venus are pretty tough to kill with a lot of those starter weapons once you venture out a bit. The enemies in the kuva fortress, pluto, sedna and the high level void missions aren't a walk in the park for those early game weapons.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think it's about getting overkill damage, so much as getting the most damage possible, because at higher levels you're not really going to be dealing that much overkill damage, or any at all. Meanwhile, utility at that level falls off because faster reloads, more ammo, and so on won't let you kill enemies before they can shoot, and therefore kill you.

True when you go up against enemies that scale damage is king. When they are fixed level getting "enough" damage to 1 or 2 shot mobs is all that's needed to make a weapon viable. For things like the karak as an example, it simply doesn't pump out that kind of damage without a riven. For other weapons that do pump out the necessary damage.. what good does even more damage do in that context? Why not focus those spare mod spots on utility to gain a better quality of life from the weapon?

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

It's not about the level of damage, in those cases it's about the weapon simply not being able to kill mobs quick enough. A lot of the bows suffer from this, as do snipers, you take out a few but it's nothing like when you use an automatic rifle or an aoe type weapon (lenz is the exclusion there of course that thing is great)

... but why are you bringing a single-target weapon to a horde game mode? How exactly is a Riven mod ever going to solve that problem?

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Not a lot, which is why they're unpopular for endgame. it's what I'm also trying to get at; people throw mods on to make it deal more dmg but that destroys it's utility further coz just having damage means nothing if it can't actually be used in a meaningful way. A riven that boost utility is the game changer then since you can still mod hard for dmg and get utility at a single mod spot.

At the expense of more damage, as that stat taken up by utility is a stat not taken up by damage, which is still worth more than a faster reload. If a weapon is to slow to reload, it doesn't get Rivened, it just gets abandoned: those weapons remain unpopular for endgame regardless of Rivens, as noted by their rates of usage, so it's not exactly as if Rivens bring any benefit to the situation.

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Idk about that, the mobs in the orb on venus are pretty tough to kill with a lot of those starter weapons once you venture out a bit. The enemies in the kuva fortress, pluto, sedna and the high level void missions aren't a walk in the park for those early game weapons.

If you are fighting Elite Terra Corpus or enemies in Pluto, Sedna or the Kuva Fortress with an early game weapon... why? If you're choosing to slot a Riven mod onto one such weapon instead of just equipping any of the many superior options that can easily be built from a Market blueprint... why?!

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

True when you go up against enemies that scale damage is king. When they are fixed level getting "enough" damage to 1 or 2 shot mobs is all that's needed to make a weapon viable. For things like the karak as an example, it simply doesn't pump out that kind of damage without a riven. For other weapons that do pump out the necessary damage.. what good does even more damage do in that context? Why not focus those spare mod spots on utility to gain a better quality of life from the weapon?

Which "fixed level" are we talking about? Because missions with scaling enemies simply raise their level, they don't magically switch their entire way of coping with the player's damage. Are we talking level 50 enemies, level 75 enemies, level 100+ enemies? Because in the latter ranges, there is once again no such thing as overkill damage.

[(PSN)tissot555]

On 2019-07-06 at 8:52 PM, Descent-of-Damocles said:

This is probably the last time I'm going to play the riven nerf game before I just quit on the next one. It's too stress inducing to play this kuva game, roll something good, get nerfed, start over. Or on the other hand, pay for platinum, trade for riven, get nerfed, riven does worse than 165% primed elemental mod.

To start, lets list the problems with the current system in a clear and short manner:

1. Bad weapons are not going to benefit from high disposition rivens. 300% of base crit 5, is only a 15% increase to 20%
2. A nerf to high dispositions makes a huge difference. Shotguns don't reach 100% status chance, vectis prime doesnt reach 1 magazine size.
3. Snipers are nerfed as a category. They're strong, but hard to use in a horde-shooter close-quarters-combat themed game, but that's not considered in riven disposition criteria.
4. Aklex and Sicarus got nerfed again. Doesn't literally nobody use them already? Every other gun out performs them already, so it seems bad weapons are still getting nerfed
5. At 0.5 disposition, primed elementals are already stronger, because 2 stats with 50% strength of a mod is no match for 165% of a primed mod. Unless of course your specific weapon needs an exhausted stat like status chance on shotguns with low base
6. Why is breaking player inventory more viable than fixing bad weapons that dont fit any useful criteria of the game?
7. Why is this "internal power rating" not disclosed?
    

Now why is this harmful to the community?

1. Spent thousands of platinum on that riven? Should have purchased the primed elemental mod instead.
2. You spent thousands of hours kuva farming for the perfect roll, and now it's irrelevant? Well done.
3. Your snipers, shotguns and weapons no longer work or feel the same because fire rate, recoil, magazine and IPS are stats you can roll? Get used to the new feel or dont use the riven.
4. The stug is 1.5 disposition? Better get that 300% critical chance and 150% status chance to make that 5% critical chance go to 20% and 0% status chance go to... 0%? Nvm dont use high dispo rivens for bad weapons.
5. Your tiberon got nerfed? Better spend forma, plat, and time to get a new replacement gun. And btw, you're going to have to buy a COMPLETELY NEW RIVEN or ROLL YOUR OWN. That's either going to be a couple hundred dollars, or a few hundred hours, your call.
6. You used to get 100% status on a shotgun for corrosive? Now you'll have to deal with all 4 dual stats so you dilute corrosive with blast, and blast will prone enemies. GL
7. Vectis prime no longer able to get 1 magazine size? Use depleted reload, it's not like it takes up a slot or anything.
8. Rubico prime, lanka, and kitguns are killing eidolons? Lets make that a little harder now, (as if chroma nerf wasnt enough. Mirage nerf is next btw, since someone found a way to use mirage as OG chroma and can 1 shot eidolons again).

What can we do to fix this? (Just any one of these will do)

1. Cap the minimum dispo so it never drops before 1 dispo. The very core of the problem is 0.5 dispo (meaning half the power of a regular mod) means what it mean. With 2 stats or 3 stats, being so weak, you might as well not use a riven. It takes up a slot, it's bound to weapon, it's not worth the trouble unless you get a 2+1- dmg,ms, where it would then be marginally better than primed elementals. 0.1% near perfect roll to get a small bump in performance, wow... Can you believe that 0.5 of a riven mod times 2 stats to choose from, is not much better than 1.65 of a primed mod?
2. Make rivens it's own special slot. The kitguns and zaws are going to have it bad. They have a dedicated arcane slot that will make them superior to any non-modular counterpart. They are inherently OP, and so their rivens are just junk soon™. If rivens are their own slot, then there wouldn't be a complaint about dispositions being too low. they become an inherent bonus to whatever the gun was in the first place. We're removing the opportunity cost of possessing a riven that's bounded to a weapon. Your investment is no longer trivialized compared to the normal joe, you just wont have as much of it, which is where I think DE intended it.
3. Fix bad weapons. You can't honestly think a 1.5 dispo stug with it's glorious 5% 1.5x crit specification and a whopping 0% status chance makes up for anything. We're at a point where good weapons aren't good, they're normal. The bad weapons are just unusable. The disposition thing would have to be kept at a solid 1 dispo for all weapons, and rebalance each weapon's stats accordingly. This is what other games do, they balance the game, not your accounts (and specifically only invested player's accounts would have rivens to be nerfed, so you're basically only screwing over the loyalist of customers at this point). Other game companies don't nerf inventories without compensation, instead, they nerf the global mechanics of the game (to make it grindier and encourage players to purchase boosters and micro transactions with real money)

Let's be honest though. If you have a god riven and it gets nerfed, it's still a god riven. Dont pretend your time was wasted just cause a gun loses a fraction of its riven potential. If you had a Rubico with cc, cd and ms, after the nerf you still have a rubico with cc, cd and ms. Stop QQ you arent going to re-roll that or buy another one

Edited August 8, 2019 by (PS4)tissot555

[Jax_Cavalera]

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How exactly is a Riven mod ever going to solve that problem?

Increases reload speen to the point it works like a semi auto at maybe the cost of dmg per shot a little.

 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If a weapon is to slow to reload, it doesn't get Rivened, it just gets abandoned: those weapons remain unpopular for endgame regardless of Rivens, as noted by their rates of usage, so it's not exactly as if Rivens bring any benefit to the situation.

Exactly the current riven system is broken and needs to be improved.

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If you are fighting Elite Terra Corpus or enemies in Pluto, Sedna or the Kuva Fortress with an early game weapon... why? If you're choosing to slot a Riven mod onto one such weapon instead of just equipping any of the many superior options that can easily be built from a Market blueprint... why?

Because either:
1. You can
2. You prefer the way the weapon handles.. just needs more dmg as it has a desirable reload, fire rate, etc already.

In dynamic mission types you start getting more of the harder mobs / different enemy types example: corpus survival eventually becomes rail moas and nullifier type units but usually starts with a crewmen and moas.. plus a rare corpus tech.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Teridax68]

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Increases reload speen to the point it works like a semi auto at maybe the cost of dmg per shot a little.

So... turn those weapons into pistols? Why go through the trouble of doing that when pistols exist?

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Exactly the current riven system is broken and needs to be improved.

But it's not a problem with Rivens I'm mentioning, it's a problem with those weapons: if a weapon is unusably poor, it shouldn't need a rare RNG mod just to stand a chance, particularly since in practice that expectation hasn't panned out well.

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Because either:
1. You can

But by your own admission you can't, so is that really the problem of the Riven system?

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

2. You prefer the way the weapon handles.. just needs more dmg as it has a desirable reload, fire rate, etc already.

This I can fully sympathize with, but again, why not simply buff the weapon directly to bring it up to par? Would it not be far simpler and easier to choose from a selection of approximately equally powerful weapons, than to ask for players to either grind or buy an unreliable mod, and use up a mod slot, to do the same?

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

In dynamic mission types you start getting more of the harder mobs / different enemy types example: corpus survival eventually becomes rail moas and nullifier type units but usually starts with a crewmen and moas.. plus a rare corpus tech.

Yes, but you also get those rarer enemy types in static mission types of higher levels: in level 50+ missions, for example, you will typically find more Nullifiers, Combas, and Scrambuses out on the field, even if they're much rarer in Star Chart content.

[Jax_Cavalera]

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

why not simply buff the weapon directly to bring it up to par? Would it not be far simpler and easier to choose from a selection of approximately equally powerful weapons, than to ask for players to either grind or buy an unreliable mod, and use up a mod slot, to do the same?

Yes 100% it would seem to be way more straight forward from our perspective without access to the underlying source code. As a developer I get requests from design and product to tweak this or that or to just make it do X as that seems more straight forward and "simple" from their perspective. Unfortunately, in some cases the work required to re-architecture the entire system would be so time expensive that it outweighs any benefits the change would bring. In those cases, using a different "dev easier" way to achieve the same outcome becomes preferable simply so the requested feature can at least be delivered in some form to the users before a given deadline.

Things getting like this aren't a single person's fault either it can be any number of reasons including but not limited to:

• Change in project lead on a feature
• Bugfixes getting priority over a feature
• Lack of time dedicated to testing
• Missing requirements tacked on after the fact
• Lazy development standards
• Missing or vague design specifications
• etc.

End of the day all we can do is take it at face value that for whatever reason it was decided that Rivens were going to be a preferable way to introduce that capability into the game. And now we also know that the way it was implemented has some pretty big issues that need to be addressed.
 

35 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So... turn those weapons into pistols? Why go through the trouble of doing that when pistols exist?

Because the pistols may not look as cool (subjectively) as the alternative or the player has already equipped a different type of secondary weapon slot and this might be for a primary weapon. I'm sure there would be other reasons as well those are just 2 that popped into my head as I'm typing.

 

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But by your own admission you can't, so is that really the problem of the Riven system?

Hmm maybe I haven't explained my position on this properly but essentially I've been trying to say that you can do this and provided a number of weapons I personally use that aren't on the popular list, but thanks to riven mods do exactly this.

What I'm also saying though is that for high end weapons, they can't just boost all stats across the board or it would completely break what little balance the game has right now so all they can do with our current riven system is nerf all riven stats on the mod.

I believe having boosted utility stats would be a fun and fairly harmless thing to do.. it wouldn't boost dmg too much more.. but would allow for the weapon to side-grade and work in different ways than how it normally works right now depending on how that were implemented.

 

42 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, but you also get those rarer enemy types in static mission types of higher levels: in level 50+ missions, for example, you will typically find more Nullifiers, Combas, and Scrambuses out on the field, even if they're much rarer in Star Chart content.

That's true actually, in full disclosure I forgot about those so...

Spoiler

I will switch to human form if something unexpected like that or stalker etc. .comes at me in a mission usually

Completely off topic, I just want to say I am really enjoying the discussion and greatly appreciate that we are able to objectively look at the points being raised without any shade being thrown, so thank you 🙂

 

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Yes 100% it would seem to be way more straight forward from our perspective without access to the underlying source code. As a developer I get requests from design and product to tweak this or that or to just make it do X as that seems more straight forward and "simple" from their perspective. Unfortunately, in some cases the work required to re-architecture the entire system would be so time expensive that it outweighs any benefits the change would bring.

But we really are talking numbers changes here, not deeper coding. I'm not asking to redesign older weapons here, even though that'd be nice, I'm just asking to raise some numbers, lower others, and so on, just like DE has done on many occasions before (including that one balance pass that affected hundreds of weapons). Unless some developer did something so exceptionally stupid as to hard-code such basic values as damage numbers, reload speeds, etc. on all of those weapons, I don't quite see what would be the coding conundrum behind the request to buff them.

1 minute ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Because the pistols may not look as cool (subjectively) as the alternative or the player has already equipped a different type of secondary weapon slot and this might be for a primary weapon. I'm sure there would be other reasons as well those are just 2 that popped into my head as I'm typing.

I can sympathize with wanting a certain aesthetic, but in the end, your choice of weapon carries its tradeoffs regardless: a Lanka is unlikely to ever turn into an assault rifle, or a Daikyu into a semiautomatic pistol, or a Stug into a beam weapon. When bringing a weapon ill-suited for dealing with hordes into a horde mode, the fundamental problem lies with the choice of weapon, not with the lack of mod options to turn any one weapon into any other weapon. Even in a system where Riven mods were perfectly balanced, how much attack speed, increased ammo, and lessened damage would one even need to make a sniper rifle horde-viable? Is it even possible?

1 minute ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Hmm maybe I haven't explained my position on this properly but essentially I've been trying to say that you can do this and provided a number of weapons I personally use that aren't on the popular list, but thanks to riven mods do exactly this.

Okay, but Riven mods only fill up a gap that is artificially created there and need not exist. Effectively, DE have invented both the problem and the solution here: low-MR weapons have no intrinsic need to be weak, particularly as enemies balanced around those levels can themselves be adjusted. Going back to the point made above, requiring a heavily RNG-based mod just to bring a weapon up to par is not something most players are into, particularly since Rivens are typically only used to make strong weapons stronger, or turn niche weapons ultra-strong with just the right stat combinations.

1 minute ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

What I'm also saying though is that for high end weapons, they can't just boost all stats across the board or it would completely break what little balance the game has right now so all they can do with our current riven system is nerf all riven stats on the mod.

But I'm not talking about buffing high end weapons here, only the underperforming ones. Again, we have Riven dispositions, so DE themselves know just how popular each weapon is, and thus have a pretty clear idea on how much power each underperforming weapon would need to be allotted to start doing well. 

1 minute ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I believe having boosted utility stats would be a fun and fairly harmless thing to do.. it wouldn't boost dmg too much more.. but would allow for the weapon to side-grade and work in different ways than how it normally works right now depending on how that were implemented.

Sure, it would be fun and harmless, but in the current state of the game, also largely useless. Again, utility stats aren't desirable on most weapons, and modding as it currently exists is specifically geared towards upgrading, not side-grading. This is why I keep bringing up the fact that the problem here lies beyond Riven mods, because if one were to just change Riven mods to offer less damage and more utility, it would run the risk of players abandoning Rivens entirely for more DPS-oriented mods instead. 

1 minute ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Completely off topic, I just want to say I am really enjoying the discussion and greatly appreciate that we are able to objectively look at the points being raised without any shade being thrown, so thank you 🙂

My pleasure, and thank you as well! I wish there were more debates like this, honestly, all too often I see people taking differences in opinion personally, even in conversations they're not a part of, and in many cases it seems there's more of an interest in shutting down or derailing conversation than continuing it, usually because one of the participants is afraid of what might come out of a productive exchange (e.g. when discussing the balance of a frame). Polite, respectful exchanges of opinion are a breath of fresh air, and I'm glad that that's been the tone set on this thread. 

[Jax_Cavalera]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Unless some developer did something so exceptionally stupid as to hard-code such basic values as damage numbers, reload speeds, etc. on all of those weapons, I don't quite see what would be the coding conundrum behind the request to buff them.

It might have been the case, sounds like you've seen your own fair share of code like this too xD.  The other possibility here (and one I really hope isn't the truth) ..perhaps there really was nothing more than a really strong financial incentive to use Rivens vs simply adjusting weapon stats.

I did a bit more digging around to just find out the origin behind it: 

[DE]Steve states, "Our goal whether you agree with it or not... is to give new life to old stuff"
[DE]Rebecca states, "Rivens are only ever going to be balanced within rivens, It's not like we're going to change the core release of weapons around these"

So it seems they were never really wanting to allow for players to come up with new gameplay on existing powerful weapons, they just wanted to enable players a way to re-use that old gear. I agree with that underlying goal and also agree the current system seems to have missed the mark a bit. They do mention briefly that Rivens came about as an idea due to Mastery where-in as you gain mastery, those old weapons are replaced with newer, more powerful ones.

With the above in mind, I would think it's fairly safe to speculate they never wanted those starting tiers of weapons to be powerful initially but do want a player that's mastered them to have a way of breathing new life back into them again.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

When bringing a weapon ill-suited for dealing with hordes into a horde mode, the fundamental problem lies with the choice of weapon, not with the lack of mod options to turn any one weapon into any other weapon.

That's a valid point, and seems to align with what DE's intentions are with riven mods. I suppose it's more just me getting over excited about that becoming a possibility as well depending on how things were re-worked.. but considering the above I'd say fairly unlikely 🙂

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

This is why I keep bringing up the fact that the problem here lies beyond Riven mods, because if one were to just change Riven mods to offer less damage and more utility, it would run the risk of players abandoning Rivens entirely for more DPS-oriented mods instead. 

The problem is with the way our riven system works at the moment. The way it needs to work is more like:

DE boost the damage output a riven enables those less popular weapons to deliver so they can punch at a weight similar to the already popular ones, then players would have more weapons to choose from when deciding what they wanted to bring to a mission. They wouldn't need to sacrifice personal preference in gameplay or cosmetic style just to keep up with their squadmates or go the distance solo like they could with current meta.

If current god tier weapons received no real buffs in dmg from riven mods but did enable players to side-grade.. then for those who want to get experimental they could and for the rest.. well just use whatever gun you like the most because a correctly functioning riven system should enable this to boil down to choice only .. not which weapon objectively does the most dmg full stop.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Polite, respectful exchanges of opinion are a breath of fresh air, and I'm glad that that's been the tone set on this thread.

So much this 🙂

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera
updated wording a little

[Peter]

Rivens: from endgame content to salt machine.

 

tI would really appreciate if DE read that kind of thread.

[(XBOX)XxLeeRobsxX]

A weapon which is overrated deserves to hve low numbers cuz of how many ppl r using tht weapon

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

people knew rivens would change and yet they still complain about them. You really dont have that right as it was clearly stated upon release the dispo would change from time to time and DE does not care about the people complaininf obout their OP rivens getting nerfed. I have some rivens that got nerfed but they are still killing more then effectivley enough and I never needed them in the first place so why do others care so much? Consider the fact that they are optional and were always meant to change and move on people, DE is not going to stop changing the dispositions and the sooner people accept that simple fact...

[Teridax68]

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

It might have been the case, sounds like you've seen your own fair share of code like this too xD.  The other possibility here (and one I really hope isn't the truth) ..perhaps there really was nothing more than a really strong financial incentive to use Rivens vs simply adjusting weapon stats.

I honestly believe the latter would be more true than the former, as while I have seen my fair share of coding horrors, I highly doubt a seasoned developer like Digital Extremes would ever hard-code weapon stats or make them difficult in any way to change. However, I think the actual idea behind our current balance may be a little less cynical, in the sense that DE simply wanted to instil a sense of progression by making us access increasingly stronger weapons as we increased in MR. Of course, there is a bit of a business component there in that it also dangles more powerful weapons for us to buy with plat, as an alternative to grinding towards the necessary MR gate, but power progression in and of itself is a common system layered into games, with Warframe being no exception (though I do question its implementation in-game nonetheless).

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

[DE]Steve states, "Our goal whether you agree with it or not... is to give new life to old stuff"
[DE]Rebecca states, "Rivens are only ever going to be balanced within rivens, It's not like we're going to change the core release of weapons around these"

So it seems they were never really wanting to allow for players to come up with new gameplay on existing powerful weapons, they just wanted to enable players a way to re-use that old gear. I agree with that underlying goal and also agree the current system seems to have missed the mark a bit. They do mention briefly that Rivens came about as an idea due to Mastery where-in as you gain mastery, those old weapons are replaced with newer, more powerful ones.

With the above in mind, I would think it's fairly safe to speculate they never wanted those starting tiers of weapons to be powerful initially but do want a player that's mastered them to have a way of breathing new life back into them again.

Which simply brings us back to the original point that the existence of Rivens has not only failed to address the balance of older weapons, but is in fact an obstacle to healthy weapon balance: without Rivens, there would be no alternative means of balancing weapons, and so DE would have more pressure to readjust stats on underperforming weapons directly, yet currently the expectation is for us to bring those bad weapons up to par through a convoluted and highly randomized system, which is by design poorly-equipped to fulfil any balancing function. Thus, if the only gameplay reason for the existence of Rivens is to balance weapons, I'd much rather get rid of Rivens entirely and do the balance work directly, particularly since we have statistics for how much weapons would need to become balanced.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The problem is with the way our riven system works at the moment. The way it needs to work is more like:

DE boost the damage output a riven enables those less popular weapons to deliver so they can punch at a weight similar to the already popular ones, then players would have more weapons to choose from when deciding what they wanted to bring to a mission. They wouldn't need to sacrifice personal preference in gameplay or cosmetic style just to keep up with their squadmates or go the distance solo like they could with current meta.

If current god tier weapons received no real buffs in dmg from riven mods but did enable players to side-grade.. then for those who want to get experimental they could and for the rest.. well just use whatever gun you like the most because a correctly functioning riven system should enable this to boil down to choice only .. not which weapon objectively does the most dmg full stop.

Okay, but again, the problem comes with "side-grading" in a system that is focused entirely on upgrading. Sacrificing a mod slot just to side-grade a weapon effectively equates to downgrading it in comparison to other upgrade options at hand, and I fail to see why most players would want to do so, especially when top-tier weapons rarely lack in magazine size, ammo capacity, or reload speed.

[Jax_Cavalera]

26 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

DE simply wanted to instill a sense of progression by making us access increasingly stronger weapons as we increased in MR.

26 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'd much rather get rid of Rivens entirely and do the balance work directly, particularly since we have statistics for how much weapons would need to become balanced.

I can see value in what DE are trying to achieve there and believe if we don't have rivens, we will need some other system to fill in that same gap as there is certainly something to be said about getting stronger and having access to more powerful equipment a you progress in a game. Players also should have the ability to retrofit their older less powerful gear with a means of bringing it up to par again.

We could still keep the riven system, but simply remove the RNG component out of more of it (aside from what riven mod you unveil). This would surely eliminate the biggest and probably only true flaw with the current riven system.

 

26 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but again, the problem comes with "side-grading" in a system that is focused entirely on upgrading. Sacrificing a mod slot just to side-grade a weapon effectively equates to downgrading it in comparison to other upgrade options at hand, and I fail to see why most players would want to do so, especially when top-tier weapons rarely lack in magazine size, ammo capacity, or reload speed.

Exactly, so for already powerful weapons those rivens in the eyes of some players would be considered a downgrade and not worth installing. This is a good thing, and for players that want to see the more interesting; side-grades, they still have that option to install the riven mod.

In the video I linked, they touch on this point where they essentially state, "Rivens are still going to be interesting for [the already powerful] weapons... We aren't going to exclude them, but because they are already so far ahead in the usage stats and dominating the game, they aren't as strong with rivens". Which should align with everything we are saying right?

Edited August 9, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I can see value in what DE are trying to achieve there and believe if we don't have rivens, we will need some other system to fill in that same gap as there is certainly something to be said about getting stronger and having access to more powerful equipment. Players also should have the ability to retrofit their older less powerful gear with a means of bringing it up to par again.

We could still keep the riven system, but simply remove the RNG component out of more of it (aside from what riven mod you unveil). This would surely eliminate the biggest and probably only true flaw with the current riven system.

But a Riven system without any RNG is just straight-up reliable power creep, which is why it is unlikely to ever happen. This is one of the reasons why I think Rivens are fundamentally unworkable, because when you take away their biggest inconvenience, the only thing left is an uninspired, half-baked mod system that only gives more raw power, rather than any sort of interesting choice. Whatever DE's idea is for low-MR weapons, Riven mods are unlikely to ever successfully bring them up to par by their very nature.

Quote

Exactly, so for already powerful weapons those rivens in the eyes of some players would be considered a downgrade and not worth installing. This is a good thing, and for players that want to see the more interesting; side-grades, they still have that option to install the riven mod.

But why is this a good thing? Why is it ever a good idea to intentionally make a mod useless?

Quote

In the video I linked, they touch on this point where they essentially state, "Rivens are still going to be interesting for [the already powerful] weapons... We aren't going to exclude them, but because they are already so far ahead in the usage stats and dominating the game, they aren't as strong with rivens". Which should align with everything we are saying right?

Not entirely, because not being as strong with Rivens does not equate to Rivens not being usable at all on them, and that's the fundamental problem: so long as high-end weapons can make use of Riven mods over regular mods, that's going to power creep the game, and the only alternative would be to make those mods undesirable, which isn't good for Rivens or the market around them. In general, the Riven mod system is full of design dilemmas where neither option is satisfying, because the system is itself fundamentally flawed.

[Jax_Cavalera]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But a Riven system without any RNG is just straight-up reliable power creep, which is why it is unlikely to ever happen. This is one of the reasons why I think Rivens are fundamentally unworkable, because when you take away their biggest inconvenience, the only thing left is an uninspired, half-baked mod system that only gives more raw power, rather than any sort of interesting choice. Whatever DE's idea is for low-MR weapons, Riven mods are unlikely to ever successfully bring them up to par by their very nature.

With the current riven system I 100% agree with you. With a reworked system such as:

• Players can specify the 2-3 buff stats and optional curse stat
• There are no more Min - Max versions of these stats
• Number of buffs / curse would be the only thing that would still impact stat strengths
• DE would be able to adjust core damage boosting stats without also having to change the utility ones on a per weapon basis

I don't understand how a system like the one I described would facilitate power creep.

I can see how it would:

• Enable old / unpopular weapons to become viable alternatives again.
• Prevent already powerful weapons becoming even more powerful (avoids power creep).
• Allow players to create more "interesting" builds for already powerful weapons.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But why is this a good thing? Why is it ever a good idea to intentionally make a mod useless?

Subjectively useless; I'm the kind of player that has put 5 forma into my MK1 Braton just to see what kind of builds I can get out of it. I would be the kind of player that would love to see what side-grade builds I can get for already powerful weapons as well. The only players it would be useless to are those seeking to use it to further creep the already powerful nature of that god tier weapon.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Not entirely, because not being as strong with Rivens does not equate to Rivens not being usable at all on them, and that's the fundamental problem: so long as high-end weapons can make use of Riven mods over regular mods, that's going to power creep the game, and the only alternative would be to make those mods undesirable, which isn't good for Rivens or the market around them.

Hmm my interpretation of that statement Steve makes where he says, "Rivens are still going to be interesting" isn't that they really intended on making them facilitate additional power creep but more so that it would allow players using them to get more interesting builds from that type of riven mod. I agree the way it's working right now.. sadly it missed that mark and we can see that it has introduced power creep into already powerful weapons.. this is something that needs to be addressed.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Teridax68]

8 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

With the current riven system I 100% agree with you. With a reworked system such as:

• Players can specify the 2-3 buff stats and optional curse stat
• There are no more Min - Max versions of these stats
• Number of buffs / curse would be the only thing that would still impact stat strengths
• DE would be able to adjust core damage boosting stats without also having to change the utility ones on a per weapon basis

I don't understand how a system like the one I described would facilitate power creep.

Simple, players would just go for damage, multishot, and crit/status. If those stats are still worth picking on Rivens, then Rivens will continue to power creep the game, and if those stats get nerfed to the point where alternative mods are equal or better in power, then there would be no reason to pick Rivens at all. Because all Riven mods do is offer more of the same stats we typically use, they are doomed to either power creep our weapons or not be worth picking at all, with no middle ground.

8 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I can see how it would:

• Enable old / unpopular weapons to become viable alternatives again.
• Prevent already powerful weapons becoming even more powerful (avoids power creep).
• Allow players to create more "interesting" builds for already powerful weapons.

How would this enable more interesting builds? It just gives players the stats they're already looking for now, and even on older weapons it just gives them some mandatory amount of stats and uses up a mod slot just to bring them up to par with regular weapons, which is itself a reason why band-aid augments tend to not go down well either. In neither case are Riven mods as a system truly justified.

8 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Subjectively useless; I'm the kind of player that has put 5 forma into my MK1 Braton just to see what kind of builds I can get out of it. I would be the kind of player that would love to see what side-grade builds I can get for already powerful weapons as well. The only players it would be useless to are those seeking to use it to further creep the already powerful nature of that god tier weapon.

Which happens to be the majority of the playerbase, which the game by design drives to push for more efficiency and power as part of its progression. The existence of one player who insists upon carrying their MK1-Braton into late-game missions does not invalidate the fact that there are a ton of underpowered weapons that see little to no play, not even with Riven mods, and that will continue to see no play until they are balanced, because nobody's going to put time and effort into a grindy mod system when they could just pick a top-tier weapon and deal top-tier damage right away.

8 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Hmm my interpretation of that statement Steve makes where he says, "Rivens are still going to be interesting" isn't that they really intended on making them facilitate additional power creep but more so that it would allow players using them to get more interesting builds from that type of riven mod. I agree the way it's working right now.. sadly it missed that mark and we can see that it has introduced power creep into already powerful weapons.. this is something that needs to be addressed.

Addressed how, though? Buffing utility stats isn't going to do anything, and nerfing damage stats is simply going to make Riven mods as a whole undesirable. Given their fundamental design, Riven mods cannot have their problems fixed without inducing even worse problems, or invalidating the system altogether.

[Jax_Cavalera]

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If those stats are still worth picking on Rivens, then Rivens will continue to power creep the game, and if those stats get nerfed to the point where alternative mods are equal or better in power, then there would be no reason to pick Rivens at all. Because all Riven mods do is offer more of the same stats we typically use, they are doomed to either power creep our weapons or not be worth picking at all, with no middle ground.

So in the system described though, the riven mods for already powerful weapons would not include power creep inducing stat buffs so it wouldn't be introducing power creep there. I think I'm now starting to get a better understanding of the underlying point you are wanting to make though which is roughly:

• All players care about in Warframe is DPS, they are not interested in mods that make a weapon "Interesting" but add inferior DPS.

If this is correct, then we do have some evidence available that can demonstrate where this is not the case.

Before we start looking at some of these examples, I do want to say that any situation where a player is pushing their gear and skills to the limits, every last bit of DPS and optimization will count and will be used 99.9% of the time (the exception here are the players who like to show off how far they go with under-powered gear).

Would you agree though that there is a good portion of Warframe's gameplay where a seasoned player would not be required to push their gear and skills to the limits?
 

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How would this enable more interesting builds? It just gives players the stats they're already looking for now

In previous examples I demonstrated builds you could only achieve with a riven mod that was adjusting utility stats.

The main thing that really separates a riven mod from regular ones is that it allows you to set up to 3 unique stats and optionally 1 curse.  For weapons there's simply nothing like that out there and considering when it comes to utility mods, most are sub-par, to even get remotely close to a similar interesting build, it would take quite a few mod slots that could have otherwise been used to give it a little more punch. I'm not saying players don't like dealing damage.. I'm simply saying there are a decent number of scenarios where you don't need to be dealing end-game DPS and have the scope for using something a little more interesting / fun to play with.

i.e. When I do a sortie, I'll often do the first and maybe second objective using my Karak Wraith + Riven build coz i find it more interesting to use and prefer that gameplay vs a harder hitting weapon. Sadly it's rare that the 3rd sortie mission can be completed easily with weapons like that. Sure it can get the job done but it becomes a labor of love haha, so in that case I'll typically have to sacrifice fun / interesting gameplay for something that is more suitable to end game.
 

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

because nobody's going to put time and effort into a grindy mod system when they could just pick a top-tier weapon and deal top-tier damage right away.

Exactly, the current riven system needs to be re-worked it's way too grindy, way to RNG there's just no way it can currently address the clearly stated primary concerns it originally set out to achieve. We need a system that gets rid of that grindy rng aspect so it becomes more viable.
 

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Addressed how, though? Buffing utility stats isn't going to do anything, and nerfing damage stats is simply going to make Riven mods as a whole undesirable.

This is something we need to hash out further because there are 3 key requirements a successful system would need to manage:

1. Avoids power creep on already powerful weapons
2. Enables early game weapons to become viable alternatives to already powerful weapons
3. Continues to support the notion that gaining MR gives access to more powerful equipment

If you were to put all the weapons in warframe into 2 piles:

• Already Powerful
  • Would not gain DPS benefits from a riven system that only enables under-powered weapons to become stronger
     
• Under-powered
  • These weapons will benefit from a riven system that helps under-powered gear deal higher DPS

Which pile of weapons would be bigger? For riven mods to be "as a whole undesirable" it would need to be the majority of weapons sitting in that Already Powerful stack.