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Riven Enthusiasts, Time to stop the nerfs!

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9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

So in the system described though, the riven mods for already powerful weapons would not include power creep inducing stat buffs so it wouldn't be introducing power creep there.

Note that the sentence I stated was conditional, and mentioned that either Riven mods would power creep weapons when strong, or would simply not be worth picking when not, which already encapsulates what you are saying now. My point isn't that Rivens will always power creep the game no matter what, but that if you try to avoid having them contribute power creep, they will cease to be desirable.

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I think I'm now starting to get a better understanding of the underlying point you are wanting to make though which is roughly:

  • All players care about in Warframe is DPS, they are not interested in mods that make a weapon "Interesting" but add inferior DPS.

I think this misrepresents the point on several levels:

  • My claim is that, when given the option between more power and more unique gameplay, most players are incentivized to go for more power, even if it's less fun or unique, as is evidenced by weapon pick rates at large, and by the fact that the game itself pushes for more efficiency in high-end mission types, usually through raw damage. There is a famous quote from a developer that says "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game", a maxim that holds true in Warframe as well.
  • Your statement implicitly assumes that modding for more ammo or the like is "interesting", when this is ultimately only a subjective assessment on your part that is evidently not universally shared.
9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

If this is correct, then we do have some evidence available that can demonstrate where this is not the case.

Before we start looking at some of these examples, I do want to say that any situation where a player is pushing their gear and skills to the limits, every last bit of DPS and optimization will count and will be used 99.9% of the time (the exception here are the players who like to show off how far they go with under-powered gear).

Would you agree though that there is a good portion of Warframe's gameplay where a seasoned player would not be required to push their gear and skills to the limits?

There is no real content in Warframe that "requires" the player to "push their gear and skills to the limits", and the question of requirement is beside the point, as I am talking about incentives here, which are much more salient and powerful. Players may not be required to have the strongest gear, but they are incentivized to do so, because this makes missions easier and quicker. That incentive alone is enough to push players to go for stronger weapons, more damage-heavy mod setups, and so on. Meanwhile, the game generates no real incentive to go for "interesting" stats like max ammo or the like, because mods with those stats tend to perform worse than damage-focused alternatives.

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

In previous examples I demonstrated builds you could only achieve with a riven mod that was adjusting utility stats.

... which people would be unlikely to pick over builds that would focus on damage. Why would people want more ammo when they could just replace that stat with more damage instead?

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The main thing that really separates a riven mod from regular ones is that it allows you to set up to 3 unique stats and optionally 1 curse.  For weapons there's simply nothing like that out there and considering when it comes to utility mods, most are sub-par, to even get remotely close to a similar interesting build, it would take quite a few mod slots that could have otherwise been used to give it a little more punch.

But when you look at current setups, the 3 "unique stats" are all damage and the "curse" is typically negative Impact or Puncture to maximize status procs of a particular type. I don't think the problem is really that utility mods are "sub-par", because if one really wanted there are quite a few mods out there for attack speed, reload speed, ammo, and so on. Even if they were bad, the easier solution would be to just buff those mods, instead of redesigning an entire other modding system to make up for it.

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I'm not saying players don't like dealing damage.. I'm simply saying there are a decent number of scenarios where you don't need to be dealing end-game DPS and have the scope for using something a little more interesting / fun to play with.

And in those scenarios, more utility matters even less, so why would players go for that? Come to think of it, why would players even bother picking a Riven mod specifically for low-end content? Rivens are supposed to be an extra layer of grinding and trading for veterans, they're not a system most other players are concerned with, let alone would want to dedicate themselves to when not touching high-end content.

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

i.e. When I do a sortie, I'll often do the first and maybe second objective using my Karak Wraith + Riven build coz i find it more interesting to use and prefer that gameplay vs a harder hitting weapon. Sadly it's rare that the 3rd sortie mission can be completed easily with weapons like that. Sure it can get the job done but it becomes a labor of love haha, so in that case I'll typically have to sacrifice fun / interesting gameplay for something that is more suitable to end game.
 

Okay, but by your own admission, your choice is so suboptimal that you cannot even reliably complete a Sortie with it, so why on Earth would anyone imitate that? Just because people are technically capable of sacrificing efficiency for personal style/gameplay preference does not mean most or even that many players do it, again as evidenced by the current state of the game. It is this larger set of choices (or lack thereof) that is a problem, one your proposal would not solve.

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Exactly, the current riven system needs to be re-worked it's way too grindy, way to RNG there's just no way it can currently address the clearly stated primary concerns it originally set out to achieve. We need a system that gets rid of that grindy rng aspect so it becomes more viable.

Sure, except at that point we might as well just scrap the Riven mod system entirely and come up with something entirely different, because the system you are proposing here has strictly nothing to do with Rivens. Rivens need to be grindy and RNG because when you strip that, the only thing you have is power creep, and when you strip that away, you have a system that has nothing interesting to offer of its own. Instead of holding onto a system that is clearly broken, it would thus be better to see how we could improve weapon balance and modding independently of Rivens, and see if there's room for some other system to add some genuine extra gameplay after that.

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

This is something we need to hash out further because there are 3 key requirements a successful system would need to manage:

  1. Avoids power creep on already powerful weapons
  2. Enables early game weapons to become viable alternatives to already powerful weapons
  3. Continues to support the notion that gaining MR gives access to more powerful equipment

There is a fundamental contradiction between points 2 and 3, as you cannot make the player feel like a higher-MR weapon is more powerful if you can catch up to it anyway. Moreover, as already mentioned, there is a degree of complication that is not being accounted for here in how players would need to go through the additional steps of finding a Riven mod for their underpowered weapon (and sacrifice a mod slot in the process) just to bring it up to par, when they could instead just pick a stronger weapon and not waste all that time and resources.

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

If you were to put all the weapons in warframe into 2 piles:

  • Already Powerful
    • Would not gain DPS benefits from a riven system that only enables under-powered weapons to become stronger
       
  • Under-powered
    • These weapons will benefit from a riven system that helps under-powered gear deal higher DPS

Which pile of weapons would be bigger? For riven mods to be "as a whole undesirable" it would need to be the majority of weapons sitting in that Already Powerful stack.

That isn't true, since as said before, the very concept of using Riven mods to make weak weapons as strong as strong weapons is not inherently desirable, due to the much simpler and easier alternative of just picking an innately stronger weapon. Thus, Rivens wouldn't be particularly desirable on underpowered weapons (as is already the case), and by your own admission, they wouldn't be desirable on already powerful weapons, so they really would be as a whole undesirable.

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9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Note that the sentence I stated was conditional, and mentioned that either Riven mods would power creep weapons when strong, or would simply not be worth picking when not, which already encapsulates what you are saying now. My point isn't that Rivens will always power creep the game no matter what, but that if you try to avoid having them contribute power creep, they will cease to be desirable.

Based on what you have stated so far, if having more power is the thing that dictates which weapon a player brings to a given mission, then surely the solution here is to level the power cap, or provide a way (such as a mod players can equip) to do this same thing.

If a riven mod on already powerful weapons has no impact to their max DPS, that doesn't mean riven mods on lower tier gear need to also be useless. A riven on low tier gear can still be used to boost it's DPS up to the same levels as that already powerful weapon and not introduce power creep. The only thing that changes in that scenario would be, players now have more options regarding the weapon they want to bring along to a mission.

I'm not going to try and debate how power creep works or that given more power, this is what players will opt for even if it's at the expense of more fun because I 100% agree with that notion. This is what I'm trying to address, removing a means for power creep whilst also enabling weaker weapons to become viable options delivering comparable DPS to the powerful ones.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why would people want more ammo when they could just replace that stat with more damage instead?

I did a little investigation into this to find out if there is demand or not for mods that bring absolutely zero damage benefits to the game vs a mod that undeniably brings substantial DPS benefits. If you look up the current selling price between Primed Heated Charge and Peculiar Growth they're quite similar being only a 5p difference. Why would someone be wanting to pay almost the same plat for a mod that adds 0 DPS to their build vs one that adds significant DPS to a build if there is no demand for mods that can make gameplay more "interesting"?

I get it, interesting gameplay is pretty subjective, to some people it will be making an enemies' head grow really big, to others it's having flowers spawn where they shoot an enemy, to others it's having a normally slow firing rifle work more like an infinite range beam weapon, but in any case, there is clearly some value ascribed to owning a mod that would allow a player to do things like this, even if it were at the expense of DPS.

 

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Rivens need to be grindy and RNG because when you strip that, the only thing you have is power creep, and when you strip that away, you have a system that has nothing interesting to offer of its own. Instead of holding onto a system that is clearly broken, it would thus be better to see how we could improve weapon balance and modding independently of Rivens, and see if there's room for some other system to add some genuine extra gameplay after that.

I don't really understand why a riven mod needs to be part of a grindy RNG system or how RNG adds any value to what riven mods are supposed to be delivering. When you take away RNG you get predictability, and predictability is something that can be easily balanced.. which prevents power creep.

Once you remove power creep away, you have a system that can boost DPS on weapons that better suit your playstyle so they punch at the same level to weapons that are already powerful.

Already powerful weapons don't need that kind of boost from a riven mod so instead they're getting the ability to change how the weapon works in one way or another.. should that be something a player is subjectively more interested in. There are more than just a few players out there interested in mods that change up how their weapon may work as evidenced previously with the example between primed heated charge and peculiar growth.

 

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There is a fundamental contradiction between points 2 and 3, as you cannot make the player feel like a higher-MR weapon is more powerful if you can catch up to it anyway. Moreover, as already mentioned, there is a degree of complication that is not being accounted for here in how players would need to go through the additional steps of finding a Riven mod for their underpowered weapon (and sacrifice a mod slot in the process) just to bring it up to par, when they could instead just pick a stronger weapon and not waste all that time and resources.

I think it's a reasonable argument that players will enjoy the way some specific weapons work more than others (damage aside) and given the DPS playing field could be equalized by a riven mod, it will all boil down to what type of weapon a player enjoys using the most. It's not a sacrificed mod slot, since in this context, no matter how you kit out your already powerful weapon it'll punch at the same DPS to the low tier weapon that has the riven mod in it. It's only a sacrifice if one weapon could outperform the other given it had full use of all those mod slots.

Sure it's not immediately obvious to a new starter that riven mods are how you can bring your favourite weapon up to scratch end game once you reach a high enough MR to equip said riven mod, but that's also part of the whole progression thing. The weapon to a new player feels less powerful than higher MR weapons because... it naturally is weaker than them. Once they get to a high enough level they gain the power of equipping a riven mod onto it so it can be re-used again. This concept is not at odds with the ideology of gaining power through progression.

 

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Thus, Rivens wouldn't be particularly desirable on underpowered weapons (as is already the case), and by your own admission, they wouldn't be desirable on already powerful weapons, so they really would be as a whole undesirable.

To be fair, the context under which I've stated that riven mods are currently unable to make low tier weapons punch at the same DPS to already powerful ones is based on our current riven system. This is why I am saying the current system is broken, because it does not achieve the goals DE set out for it to achieve.

As long as we have all riven mods giving more power to every single weapon regardless of how much DPS it naturally has, it is not going to make riven mods for low tier weapons terribly desirable and I 100% agree with that point. It is this flaw in our current riven system that is causing issues.

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12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Based on what you have stated so far, if having more power is the thing that dictates which weapon a player brings to a given mission, then surely the solution here is to level the power cap, or provide a way (such as a mod players can equip) to do this same thing.

It depends on how you level the power cap, because trying to do so via Riven mods isn't actually going to balance the scales. There are two components at hand here: raw power, but also ease of access, and talking about levelling the power cap only touches upon one of the two factor. So long as there are top-tier weapons that are easier to access than Riven mods, it doesn't matter how well Riven mods will balance out weaker weapons, because players will still consistently go for the innately stronger weapons, as opposed to the much more convoluted, grindy and expensive way of reaching the same degree of strength.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

If a riven mod on already powerful weapons has no impact to their max DPS, that doesn't mean riven mods on lower tier gear need to also be useless. A riven on low tier gear can still be used to boost it's DPS up to the same levels as that already powerful weapon and not introduce power creep. The only thing that changes in that scenario would be, players now have more options regarding the weapon they want to bring along to a mission.

I never said the Riven mod there would be useless, it's just that it'll still almost certainly be grindier, and thus more tedious/expensive to obtain for the desired weaker weapon than a strong weapon of equivalent power (and Rivens are meant to be grindy by design). Thus, if the intent is still to balance weapons, you're offering a way of reaching a level of power that already exists in a more simple and convenient manner.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I'm not going to try and debate how power creep works or that given more power, this is what players will opt for even if it's at the expense of more fun because I 100% agree with that notion. This is what I'm trying to address, removing a means for power creep whilst also enabling weaker weapons to become viable options delivering comparable DPS to the powerful ones.

That is fine, and I can very much sympathize with that, because I too want a game where every weapon is desirable and viable; my point is that Rivens are simply not a good way of going about it, for the reasons mentioned above. At best, they're a band-aid that are unlikely to ever actually fix the problem they claim to solve, and generally trying to bolt on an optional solution to a systemic problem never really works in video games.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I did a little investigation into this to find out if there is demand or not for mods that bring absolutely zero damage benefits to the game vs a mod that undeniably brings substantial DPS benefits. If you look up the current selling price between Primed Heated Charge and Peculiar Growth they're quite similar being only a 5p difference. Why would someone be wanting to pay almost the same plat for a mod that adds 0 DPS to their build vs one that adds significant DPS to a build if there is no demand for mods that can make gameplay more "interesting"?

Because Peculiar mods are specifically valued for their extreme rarity and purely cosmetic value. They're useless mods by design, and are obtained for bragging rights. I don't think this is a particularly wise comparison to make, unless you are trying to tell me that Riven mods as well should be considered pure collector's items with no inherent gameplay value (which, given their relative commonness and randomized, cookie-cutter stats, is not a winning formula for a would-be collector's item).

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I get it, interesting gameplay is pretty subjective, to some people it will be making an enemies' head grow really big, to others it's having flowers spawn where they shoot an enemy, to others it's having a normally slow firing rifle work more like an infinite range beam weapon, but in any case, there is clearly some value ascribed to owning a mod that would allow a player to do things like this, even if it were at the expense of DPS.

This too is an incredibly silly comparison to make, because once again, Peculiar mods don't exist to provide "interesting gameplay", they're there really just for cosmetic value and to advertize the ownership of an exceedingly rare item, and even with that premise few actually sacrifice mod slots for them, at least not for regular play. What you are asking is for people to participate in a grindy, expensive mod system, and sacrifice a mod slot... for cosmetic reasons? Really? How is that a generally sustainable system, let alone worth the complexity and monstrous data storage requirements of Riven mods?

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I don't really understand why a riven mod needs to be part of a grindy RNG system or how RNG adds any value to what riven mods are supposed to be delivering. When you take away RNG you get predictability, and predictability is something that can be easily balanced.. which prevents power creep.

It would prevent power creep if power creep weren't the very intended purpose of the system, is my point. A Riven mod system without RNG is just a pure power creep system, and a Riven mod system without power creep is worth nought. Neither the randomness nor the power creep add value to the game, but they are currently the only real means of making Riven mods desirable to players.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Once you remove power creep away, you have a system that can boost DPS on weapons that better suit your playstyle so they punch at the same level to weapons that are already powerful.

... which people have no real reason to pick up when they could just go for the powerful weapons and skip the Riven mod altogether.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Already powerful weapons don't need that kind of boost from a riven mod so instead they're getting the ability to change how the weapon works in one way or another.. should that be something a player is subjectively more interested in. There are more than just a few players out there interested in mods that change up how their weapon may work as evidenced previously with the example between primed heated charge and peculiar growth.

Except the example you picked up is specious, as Peculiar mods do not alter gameplay and are intentionally supposed to be joke mods. What you are advocating is to turn a significant portion of the Riven system into a literal joke, because apparently there's this handful of players out there who will resist the very real incentive to become more powerful, just so that they could "change up how their weapon may work" through more ammo capacity or whatever (whose capacity to actually alter the weapon's gameplay I question as well).

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I think it's a reasonable argument that players will enjoy the way some specific weapons work more than others (damage aside) and given the DPS playing field could be equalized by a riven mod, it will all boil down to what type of weapon a player enjoys using the most. It's not a sacrificed mod slot, since in this context, no matter how you kit out your already powerful weapon it'll punch at the same DPS to the low tier weapon that has the riven mod in it. It's only a sacrifice if one weapon could outperform the other given it had full use of all those mod slots.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that players prefer some weapons over others on pure gameplay terms, but that doesn't stop the fact that players are incentivized to go for what has the most power and efficiency. Riven mods currently do not give weaker weapons the power they need to compete, and even if they did that power would not be efficient relative to just picking up a weapon that's strong from the get-go. The model you are proposing is critically flawed, and has never been successfully achieved even once under the current system.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Sure it's not immediately obvious to a new starter that riven mods are how you can bring your favourite weapon up to scratch end game once you reach a high enough MR to equip said riven mod, but that's also part of the whole progression thing. The weapon to a new player feels less powerful than higher MR weapons because... it naturally is weaker than them. Once they get to a high enough level they gain the power of equipping a riven mod onto it so it can be re-used again. This concept is not at odds with the ideology of gaining power through progression.

It is, though, because ultimately what you are proposing is a system where everyone ends up at the same level of power anyway, and that end situation carries a lot of baggage tied to structuring the entire game around a difference in power levels that is ultimately fairly short-lived. By the time you've told players that they can have their weapons catch up to the new ones, those players will have already moved on, and even if they did like an older weapon, why stick to it and go through the convoluted process of grinding for a Riven, when they could just go for the innately stronger weapon and achieve the same results?

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

To be fair, the context under which I've stated that riven mods are currently unable to make low tier weapons punch at the same DPS to already powerful ones is based on our current riven system. This is why I am saying the current system is broken, because it does not achieve the goals DE set out for it to achieve.

But that's not what I'm saying, though. I'm pointing out that even in a system where Rivens really did balance out weaker weapons, there would still be no real incentive to go for them, because there would be far easier means of reaching the same degree of power. The only thing you're banking on here is personal preference for unviable weapons, and while I would like weapons to all be made viable, I don't think that desire alone is enough to justify the added inconvenience or expense tied to Rivens, especially as it only rarely if ever has in the past.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

As long as we have all riven mods giving more power to every single weapon regardless of how much DPS it naturally has, it is not going to make riven mods for low tier weapons terribly desirable and I 100% agree with that point. It is this flaw in our current riven system that is causing issues.

Sure, that's a flaw with the current system, but I'm not just talking about current flaws here. I've repeatedly pointed out at this stage that Riven mods are critically, fundamentally flawed by design, and even in a "perfect" situation where they brought all weapons up to the same power level, those problems would still not go away. There is no "perfect" Riven system because the Riven system is fundamentally not conducive to improved gameplay or balance; it's just a ploy to get players to trade more. I suspect this is also why there has never been any clear idea so far on what would constitute a perfect or even just a healthy Riven system, because one such system simply does not exist.

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It depends on how you level the power cap, because trying to do so via Riven mods isn't actually going to balance the scales. There are two components at hand here: raw power, but also ease of access, and talking about levelling the power cap only touches upon one of the two factor. So long as there are top-tier weapons that are easier to access than Riven mods, it doesn't matter how well Riven mods will balance out weaker weapons, because players will still consistently go for the innately stronger weapons, as opposed to the much more convoluted, grindy and expensive way of reaching the same degree of strength.

It might go that way or it might go the other way, without prior examples of cases where DE have done something similar.

For experienced players who have already grinded everything the game has to offer, riven mods provide a way to re-visit old content again so they can use those weapons they really enjoyed but shelved in favour of higher tier gear as they climbed the MR ladder. Riven mods are intended as an end-game system and so for this demographic there is a very strong chance these players will find the little bit of grinding associated with a reworked system worth their while.

For new starter players I am inclined to agree with you that there is a really good chance it would be too much effort to figure out and grind just to keep using their current favourite weapon when they can pick up weapon X off the shelf and have it deal comparable damage.

 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Thus, if the intent is still to balance weapons, you're offering a way of reaching a level of power that already exists in a more simple and convenient manner.

I kind of touched on this above so I won't re-state my position on this bit too much other than saying, I agree for a new starter player that hasn't grinded all the weapons in the game yet, Rivens are definitely not worth their time. As an experienced player that already has every gun in the game, there are older ones that I preferred to use but simply couldn't keep up with current meta. In a reworked system where there is a reduction in RNG so my result is going to be a lot more predictable and balanced, it also means there would be less grind and gamble making it a lot more appealing to veterans.

 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Rivens are simply not a good way of going about it,

The underlying problems are not easy to solve in tandem so a correctly reworked riven system does look to check all the right boxes. It's not meant for early game players, they have natural weapon progression which is far easier and accessible. It provides a way for old gear to hit at a balanced DPS to meta top tier gear for veteran / high MR players. It doesn't introduce power creep on already powerful weapons.

 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

unless you are trying to tell me that Riven mods as well should be considered pure collector's items with no inherent gameplay value (which, given their relative commonness and randomized, cookie-cutter stats, is not a winning formula for a would-be collector's item).

This is actually kind of what I'm trying to get at. If you already own a powerful weapon, what better way to skylark then by using a riven mod to make it do really unconventional things. It'd need some work to really let players make noticeably wacky builds with them, but yeah that's pretty much it. On an already powerful weapon you could opt to sacrifice a little power so the weapon started to do crazy things on level with having it turn enemies heads bigger or spawn flowers where they are shot by crits.

To a lot of players, there wouldn't be that big of a market for this stuff, it's a little niche for sure, I personally haven't felt the need to go after the Peculiar collection of mods just yet. What it does demonstrate though is the demand exists out there for players who like to do silly things with their weapons at the expense of DPS. In that regard it'd be similar to a collectors item that you only bring out for low level missions and put back on the display shelf when not in use. Not all collector's items need to be super rare, quite often in a collection you have a few commons alongside those rare ones and yeah they're less desirable than the rare ones but you still want them to flesh out your collection of wacky "fun mods".

 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except the example you picked up is specious,

This doesn't mean it wouldn't happen or that the example provided was in any way intentionally misleading. It was simply an existing demonstration of where we have mods players have demonstrated interest for that intentionally reduce their DPS so they can do something "interesting".

I will give you that it's all very subjective, and in the grand scheme of things far more likely a player will use that riven to bring a little more utility to the already powerful weapon without sacrificing any DPS rather than trying to create some new frankenstein joke mod.

Either way this isn't the point I'd really like to focus on so happy to simply agree it's subjective at best either way without sufficient data and direct examples to use as a point of reference.

 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is, though, because ultimately what you are proposing is a system where everyone ends up at the same level of power anyway

Well yeah they eventually do once they've unlocked all the gear required to reach that higher MR level necessary to equip their desired riven mod, but this isn't at odds with the principal of power through progression. It's not as though a new starter is going to be able to farm sortie missions for a riven mod, let alone have the MR to equip it. By the time a player reaches sufficient MR to start equipping these riven mods, that seems like they've had to progress quite a bit through the game to access this new found power.

 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

why stick to it and go through the convoluted process of grinding for a Riven, when they could just go for the innately stronger weapon and achieve the same results?

I'm not saying they should or would do this, a new starter is going to keep upgrading like they already have been to the next available top tier weapon out there. Sure they'll remember some of the good ones that suited their personal preferences, but it isn't until they unlock the power of being able to farm and actually use riven mods that this will even be a consideration to them. I think this is exactly how it should be too, we don't want new players missing out on trying all the gear in the game because they found weapon X was their "perfect" gun before at least giving other weapons a go.

Maybe the minimum MR on riven mods could be tweaked to help encourage this power through progression theme more kicking in once a player hits that final MR needed to equip all weapons in the game. I'm open to stuff like that but again this is why we need to look at how rivens can be better reworked, coz it's clear there are things we can do better to make the system achieve the original goal it set out to accomplish.

 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The only thing you're banking on here is personal preference for unviable weapons, and while I would like weapons to all be made viable, I don't think that desire alone is enough to justify the added inconvenience or expense tied to Rivens, especially as it only rarely if ever has in the past.

DE have also invested heavily in this system with their UI, balance passes etc. so I'm not alone in my position that personal preference is a strong enough driver given the system were reworked to be less grindy, more accessible to the correct target demographic and met those other key requirements previously stated; balance, power through progression, reuse of old favourites.

Sadly we aren't preview to whatever data analysis DE used when arriving at their decision to invest in a system like this but it would be surprising if this was just some pie in the sky, "hey lets try this out and see how it goes" idea without any data to back it up, given all the statistics and information they collect about players.

 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I've repeatedly pointed out at this stage that Riven mods are critically, fundamentally flawed by design

The points you have raised certainly highlighted areas where they can be improved. I have repeatedly pointed out why the system is not fundamentally flawed, granted yes we got a little sidetracked drilling into the whole utility and fun factor that ultimately boiled down to being a pretty edge case and very subjective on either side of the fence.

From my perspective, it looks like we are saying a lot of the same things in that:
You will state riven mods do not provide a way for players to gain additional power as they progress through the game, and I will explain how to an early game player they don't and to a veteran player having more options to choose from IS power. There are numerous examples out in the wild reinforcing that notion, "More options is the same as having more power".

You know what gives buyers more power over monopolized markets? More options to choose from.
What gives a soldier going into battle more power? The option to choose a weapon that best suits their combat style.
Any elite sports person more power? being able to use the gear they feel the most comfortable with.. provided it doesn't bring any reductions in performance.

I believe we really are on the same page here, it's just that we have been looking at it from 2 different angles.

Edited by Jax_Cavalera

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12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

It might go that way or it might go the other way, without prior examples of cases where DE have done something similar.

There have been instances in the past where some Riven mods could make certain weapons exceed top-tier options (the Soma Prime was one of the first, as I recall), and even so it didn't boost the pick rates of those weapons by that much, not simply because appropriate Rivens were rare, but also because they were incredibly expensive, and otherwise a hassle to obtain. Even now, you will have weapons of comparable power where some are picked more than others simply due to how more easily they're obtained (the Atomos is seen more often than the Vaykor Marelok, for example, even though both are around equally strong). There are precedents, and beyond that it's a matter of simple common sense.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

For experienced players who have already grinded everything the game has to offer, riven mods provide a way to re-visit old content again so they can use those weapons they really enjoyed but shelved in favour of higher tier gear as they climbed the MR ladder. Riven mods are intended as an end-game system and so for this demographic there is a very strong chance these players will find the little bit of grinding associated with a reworked system worth their while.

Revisit which content, exactly? If experienced players have already ground everything the game has to offer, what are they going to run with these revisited weapons? Why revisit those weapons at all? For sure, one could Riven a weak weapon for a lark and run a few missions before lack of purpose takes over once more, but that's not exactly durable or sustainable.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I kind of touched on this above so I won't re-state my position on this bit too much other than saying, I agree for a new starter player that hasn't grinded all the weapons in the game yet, Rivens are definitely not worth their time. As an experienced player that already has every gun in the game, there are older ones that I preferred to use but simply couldn't keep up with current meta. In a reworked system where there is a reduction in RNG so my result is going to be a lot more predictable and balanced, it also means there would be less grind and gamble making it a lot more appealing to veterans.

... but there would still be more grind than just getting a weapon that's already strong, is my point. Aside from the handful of people who get nostalgic over a very specific underpowered weapon, there isn't really a larger clientele for that kind of thing, which in turn fails to justify such a convoluted additional system, nor when simpler alternatives exist to make all weapons more viable.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The underlying problems are not easy to solve in tandem so a correctly reworked riven system does look to check all the right boxes. It's not meant for early game players, they have natural weapon progression which is far easier and accessible. It provides a way for old gear to hit at a balanced DPS to meta top tier gear for veteran / high MR players. It doesn't introduce power creep on already powerful weapons.

And what would those "right boxes"? Again, all you have mentioned has been addressed already and shown to simply not be enough. One cannot justify the existence of a busted system purely on the hypothetical grounds that some perfect, if radically different system might exist, even if nothing that has been proposed so far fits the bill.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

This is actually kind of what I'm trying to get at. If you already own a powerful weapon, what better way to skylark then by using a riven mod to make it do really unconventional things. It'd need some work to really let players make noticeably wacky builds with them, but yeah that's pretty much it. On an already powerful weapon you could opt to sacrifice a little power so the weapon started to do crazy things on level with having it turn enemies heads bigger or spawn flowers where they are shot by crits.

... which unconventional things? Again, Rivens operate purely on stats by design, and you're not going to be able to change that unless you do away with dispositions and the ability to fine-tune the power on Rivens. Moreover, the "interesting" stats have proven to be shunned time and again on those mods, particularly when the alternative is more power. There is literally no incentive the game creates to go for these wacky builds when the incentive is to build for more power.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

To a lot of players, there wouldn't be that big of a market for this stuff, it's a little niche for sure, I personally haven't felt the need to go after the Peculiar collection of mods just yet. What it does demonstrate though is the demand exists out there for players who like to do silly things with their weapons at the expense of DPS. In that regard it'd be similar to a collectors item that you only bring out for low level missions and put back on the display shelf when not in use. Not all collector's items need to be super rare, quite often in a collection you have a few commons alongside those rare ones and yeah they're less desirable than the rare ones but you still want them to flesh out your collection of wacky "fun mods".

... yes, there is a demand for players who like to do silly things, via mods tailored to do those silly things only. Unless you want to rework Riven mods to be this ultra-niche random generator of silly effects, you are not going to emulate that experience via Riven mods, and given how such mods are not equipped for proper missions, it is unlikely to be something you'd even want to do if you want Rivens to be picked more broadly. By your own admission, though, the demographic you are intending to target here is itself incredibly niche, which once again does not justify a system on the scale and complexity of Riven mods.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

This doesn't mean it wouldn't happen or that the example provided was in any way intentionally misleading. It was simply an existing demonstration of where we have mods players have demonstrated interest for that intentionally reduce their DPS so they can do something "interesting".

It is absolutely misleading, as Peculiar mods are specifically intended to be joke mods, whereas Rivens are evidently not. Claiming that you can make people go for literally useless Riven mods, or Riven mods that may as well be, just because an entirely different class of intentionally useless mods itself has some niche demand, is an obviously shallow comparison, and argumentatively is just grasping at straws.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I will give you that it's all very subjective, and in the grand scheme of things far more likely a player will use that riven to bring a little more utility to the already powerful weapon without sacrificing any DPS rather than trying to create some new frankenstein joke mod.

Or, even more likely, put all of that Riven mod's stats into DPS to maximize its power, and if even that fails to compete with alternatives, abandon the mod entirely. Because again, there are clear examples of this in action, not just among some players, but among the majority of people who in fact use Riven mods.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Well yeah they eventually do once they've unlocked all the gear required to reach that higher MR level necessary to equip their desired riven mod, but this isn't at odds with the principal of power through progression. It's not as though a new starter is going to be able to farm sortie missions for a riven mod, let alone have the MR to equip it. By the time a player reaches sufficient MR to start equipping these riven mods, that seems like they've had to progress quite a bit through the game to access this new found power.

Sorties are unlocked at MR 5, which is fairly early as far as progression goes in Warframe, and if that is the bar you're setting for power progression, it ends incredibly quickly for only a shallow benefit, particularly since ultimately there is no real progression to be had (you still end up fighting mostly the same enemies, only with higher numbers that dampen your damage gains, and you'd be able to Riven a crappy weapon long before reaching the good stuff). Warframe's own progression system is itself not equipped to accommodate the rebalancing you are proposing with Rivens, as players could then easily nullify the entire intent of progression through stronger weapons via an early Riven. You are thus reworking one system as a progression mechanic, and pitting it against an already existing progression system. 

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I'm not saying they should or would do this, a new starter is going to keep upgrading like they already have been to the next available top tier weapon out there. Sure they'll remember some of the good ones that suited their personal preferences, but it isn't until they unlock the power of being able to farm and actually use riven mods that this will even be a consideration to them. I think this is exactly how it should be too, we don't want new players missing out on trying all the gear in the game because they found weapon X was their "perfect" gun before at least giving other weapons a go.

And at the point it would be a consideration to them, it would then already be easier to access stronger weapons instead, at which point there would be no practical use to grinding Rivens. Once again, you are pitting the game's progression systems against each other, where either Rivens are how players progress, or stronger weapons are, but never the two together.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Maybe the minimum MR on riven mods could be tweaked to help encourage this power through progression theme more kicking in once a player hits that final MR needed to equip all weapons in the game. I'm open to stuff like that but again this is why we need to look at how rivens can be better reworked, coz it's clear there are things we can do better to make the system achieve the original goal it set out to accomplish.

But would it actually accomplish those goals, is the question? This has been the entire subject of discussion so far, and based on what's been said, it's not very likely to be the case.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

DE have also invested heavily in this system with their UI, balance passes etc. so I'm not alone in my position that personal preference is a strong enough driver given the system were reworked to be less grindy, more accessible to the correct target demographic and met those other key requirements previously stated; balance, power through progression, reuse of old favourites.

UI improvements make the game better for everyone, not just a niche contingent of players. Balance passes allow underpowered weapons to gather much broader interest, and therefore also benefit everyone. Rivens, by contrast, are niche by design, especially so with the model you're proposing, so continuing to pool massive technical resources on them just for the sake of a tiny number of players isn't exactly going to have that same value for money.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Sadly we aren't preview to whatever data analysis DE used when arriving at their decision to invest in a system like this but it would be surprising if this was just some pie in the sky, "hey lets try this out and see how it goes" idea without any data to back it up, given all the statistics and information they collect about players.

... which lends even less credence to the notion that Rivens were ever truly intended to help with weapon balance. Why then hold onto such an obviously half-baked system?

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The points you have raised certainly highlighted areas where they can be improved. I have repeatedly pointed out why the system is not fundamentally flawed, granted yes we got a little sidetracked drilling into the whole utility and fun factor that ultimately boiled down to being a pretty edge case and very subjective on either side of the fence.

Which areas where they can be improved? Where exactly have you pointed out, let alone repeatedly, why the system is not fundamentally flawed? Your entire line of argumentation so far has been wholly subjective, with you banking on the mere unfounded possibility that some niche of players would take it upon themselves to grind for Riven mods just to make certain weak weapons about as powerful as much more easily farmable strong weapons. More outlandishly still, you've compared Rivens to Peculiar mods, because apparently the existence of rare, deliberately cosmetic-only mods with some value means that apparently there's a demand for procedurally generated stat mods that are useless by design.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

From my perspective, it looks like we are saying a lot of the same things in that:
You will state riven mods do not provide a way for players to gain additional power as they progress through the game, and I will explain how to an early game player they don't and to a veteran player having more options to choose from IS power. There are numerous examples out in the wild reinforcing that notion, "More options is the same as having more power".

This would make sense if those different option covered different strengths and weaknesses, but as it stands, the top tier of weapons covers everything the game asks of weapons. Thus, Riven mods in this respect do not add additional practical options, and thus no additional power. Efficiency is power, and grinding for Rivens is less efficient than farming the best available weapon in the near-totality of cases.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

You know what gives buyers more power over monopolized markets? More options to choose from.

And how would your proposed changes provide that? What good are more options if there's no demand for them?

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

What gives a soldier going into battle more power? The option to choose a weapon that best suits their combat style.

All that choice isn't going to make much of a difference when on the field and locked to a single set. Moreover, we are not strapped for options here, again because our strongest weapons already cover every weapon-based need the game could impose.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Any elite sports person more power? being able to use the gear they feel the most comfortable with.. provided it doesn't bring any reductions in performance.

Which is precisely why players go for the most convenient option at hand, i.e. the strongest weapons around, which they then get comfortable with regardless. Reverting back to a long-abandoned weapon itself requires going through the discomfort of re-learning a different weapon from what one has been using thus far.

12 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I believe we really are on the same page here, it's just that we have been looking at it from 2 different angles.

I fail to see how we could be on the same page here when my central point is that the Riven mod system is fundamentally broken and needs to disappear, and yours is that we need to preserve Riven mods at all costs, if only in name. What you are proposing not only fails to make any tangible promises of sustainability or general appeal, but ultimately does not seem to describe Riven mods at all, as you apparently want much wackier effects, fewer DPS stats, and a completely different method of grinding them. It is precisely this kind of bargaining for the preservation of Riven mods at any cost that compounds my doubts as to the system's viability, as if the system needs to change so drastically as to be barely recognizable, I think the better solution would be to scrap the system first, see what can be improved, and only then consider the possibility of an alternate replacement.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There have been instances in the past where some Riven mods could make certain weapons exceed top-tier options (the Soma Prime was one of the first, as I recall), and even so it didn't boost the pick rates of those weapons by that much, not simply because appropriate Rivens were rare, but also because they were incredibly expensive, and otherwise a hassle to obtain.

Soma Prime is probably not an ideal example considering it's always been a very popular weapon so it's hard to really look at it's usage rating and draw anything conclusive from it not going up even further by a significant value.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

weapons of comparable power where some are picked more than others simply due to how more easily they're obtained (the Atomos is seen more often than the Vaykor Marelok, for example, even though both are around equally strong).

The gameplay between a marelok and atomos are completely different so whilst they may have similar DPS that same observation could equally be proving that more players enjoy using "beam" type weapons over single shot sidearms. It's hard again to draw anything conclusive either way from this kind of thing.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

what are they going to run with these revisited weapons? Why revisit those weapons at all? For sure, one could Riven a weak weapon for a lark and run a few missions before lack of purpose takes over once more, but that's not exactly durable or sustainable.

I agree riven mods aren't going to somehow magically add new content into the game, they might help make it a little more fun to replay for a few runs as you mention, but this is an issue DE need to address in and of itself. I'd consider solving that out of scope for riven mods... nice if it can help a bit, but certainly not a goal they should be expected to achieve on their own.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Aside from the handful of people who get nostalgic over a very specific underpowered weapon, there isn't really a larger clientele for that kind of thing

Without any real data to back that up, it's not something we can really comment on either way. We don't have a workable riven system right now, we have one that encourages power creep and that's surely a more likely reason why we don't see low-tier weapons being picked up vs already powerful ones being made even more powerful.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Or, even more likely, put all of that Riven mod's stats into DPS to maximize its power, and if even that fails to compete with alternatives, abandon the mod entirely. Because again, there are clear examples of this in action, not just among some players, but among the majority of people who in fact use Riven mods.

Only possible if a riven system supports power creep. While we don't have a riven system that prevents power creep, I'm unsure of where we could be drawing any current examples of this in action from.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sorties are unlocked at MR 5, which is fairly early as far as progression goes in Warframe, and if that is the bar you're setting for power progression, it ends incredibly quickly for only a shallow benefit, particularly since ultimately there is no real progression to be had (you still end up fighting mostly the same enemies, only with higher numbers that dampen your damage gains, and you'd be able to Riven a crappy weapon long before reaching the good stuff). Warframe's own progression system is itself not equipped to accommodate the rebalancing you are proposing with Rivens, as players could then easily nullify the entire intent of progression through stronger weapons via an early Riven. You are thus reworking one system as a progression mechanic, and pitting it against an already existing progression system. 

Riven mods aren't meant to be solving game design issues related to warframe's progression system and it doesn't mean we should do nothing about the riven issue just because it can't silver bullet fix everything else in the game. A well built system comes about because it is exactly that, a system of multiple components working together. Rivens are just one piece of the larger puzzle that need to be addressed. You gain access to riven mods as you progress, and they become more relevant as you progress, it isn't a significant aspect of the overall progression system in the game.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Once again, you are pitting the game's progression systems against each other, where either Rivens are how players progress, or stronger weapons are, but never the two together.

Quite the opposite, I'm describing how the synergy between both can contribute to the overall progression system in the game. New players are choosing more obvious roads to gain power, Veteran players are micro-optimizing by adjusting their loadout with gear that better suits their playstyle. Using gear that best suits the way someone approaches a task to increase overall efficiency / performance is nothing new to the gaming world let alone everywhere, it's a time tested proven fact.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But would it actually accomplish those goals, is the question? 

Probably not, using Mastery Rank to try and shoe-horn specific players into using riven mods is unlikely to have any real impact on who uses them. I believe you have made a compelling argument that new starter players will favour simplicity over complexity and it's only once you've mastered everything you can get out of simplicity that you start to drill down into the more complex systems for that meta optimization.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

UI improvements make the game better for everyone, not just a niche contingent of players. Balance passes allow underpowered weapons to gather much broader interest, and therefore also benefit everyone. Rivens, by contrast, are niche by design,

And yet I'm specifically talking about the continuous efforts demonstrated by DE to rework the way re-rolling riven mods works, the user interface for the re-roll screen, and a bunch of other stuff around it such as ongoing disposition adjustments we experience.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

which lends even less credence to the notion that Rivens were ever truly intended to help with weapon balance. Why then hold onto such an obviously half-baked system?

That's the thing, they are constantly tweaking it, even in that video they specifically stated that it will be an on-going thing that changes based on player feedback, disposition changes are proof of this. The issue it sets out to address is a very real and valid one, The underlying concept has the potential to actually accomplish this goal. The current execution needs more tweaking before this can happen.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Which areas where they can be improved? Where exactly have you pointed out, let alone repeatedly, why the system is not fundamentally flawed?

To list a few examples:

On 2019-08-07 at 7:59 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

The mistakes they made are:

  • Blanket stat buffs / nerfs since it makes it difficult to effectively control the balancing of such a system.
    • End game weapons don't need more dmg boosting stats.. but could do with some nice Quality of Life (QOL) boosts.
    • Early game weapons could benefit from both QOL and dmg boosting stats.
  • Heavy dependency on RNG since again it makes it harder to effectively control the balancing of such a system.
    • Are players using stat X because they wanted it, or is it just because they got one or 2 good stats and didn't want to risk going after any others due to the costs involved in re-rolling riven mods?
On 2019-08-10 at 12:57 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

With the current riven system I 100% agree with you. With a reworked system such as:

  • Players can specify the 2-3 buff stats and optional curse stat
  • There are no more Min - Max versions of these stats
  • Number of buffs / curse would be the only thing that would still impact stat strengths
  • DE would be able to adjust core damage boosting stats without also having to change the utility ones on a per weapon basis

I don't understand how a system like the one I described would facilitate power creep.

I can see how it would:

  • Enable old / unpopular weapons to become viable alternatives again.
  • Prevent already powerful weapons becoming even more powerful (avoids power creep).
  • Allow players to create more "interesting" builds for already powerful weapons.
On 2019-08-11 at 11:35 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

This is something we need to hash out further because there are 3 key requirements a successful system would need to manage:

  1. Avoids power creep on already powerful weapons
  2. Enables early game weapons to become viable alternatives to already powerful weapons
  3. Continues to support the notion that gaining MR gives access to more powerful equipment

Examples where I speak to the parts that are good about the concept of rivens:

On 2019-08-09 at 7:08 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

Hmm maybe I haven't explained my position on this properly but essentially I've been trying to say that you can do this and provided a number of weapons I personally use that aren't on the popular list, but thanks to riven mods do exactly this.

On 2019-08-10 at 12:57 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

Subjectively useless; I'm the kind of player that has put 5 forma into my MK1 Braton just to see what kind of builds I can get out of it. I would be the kind of player that would love to see what side-grade builds I can get for already powerful weapons as well. The only players it would be useless to are those seeking to use it to further creep the already powerful nature of that god tier weapon.

On 2019-08-10 at 9:08 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

We could still keep the riven system, but simply remove the RNG component out of more of it (aside from what riven mod you unveil). This would surely eliminate the biggest and probably only true flaw with the current riven system.

Sure my underlying standpoint on some of this has evolved due to the positive nature of this discussion but there we go examples to back up my claim that I have been saying what I said I've been saying.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Your entire line of argumentation so far has been wholly subjective,

This discussion has been primarily subjective, the only things that haven't been subjective are the references to factual evidence I have been providing such as the actual quotes direct from DE staff and reference to well known and established facts such as how the principle of a Monopoly works or how equipment synergy works. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

More outlandishly still,

From my perspective it seemed like a reasonable comparison to make given what little existing non-DPS type mods exist. I guess from your perspective that may seem outlandish and that's fine, you're welcome to your opinion on that.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This would make sense if those different option covered different strengths and weaknesses, but as it stands, the top tier of weapons covers everything the game asks of weapons. Thus, Riven mods in this respect do not add additional practical options, and thus no additional power. Efficiency is power, and grinding for Rivens is less efficient than farming the best available weapon in the near-totality of cases.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Moreover, we are not strapped for options here, again because our strongest weapons already cover every weapon-based need the game could impose.

This is like trying to convince someone that 2 semi-automatic rifles are interchangeable because they're both semi-automatic and hoping they forget about considering the clip size, reload speeds, possible wind-up, zoom, other nuances.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And how would your proposed changes provide that? What good are more options if there's no demand for them?

Current system has no demand for them because of previously stated reasons ... most notably it endorses power creep on already powerful weapons. Fix that and suddenly you have demand.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Which is precisely why players go for the most convenient option at hand,

Convenience is not the same as comfort. You can learn how to play a musical instrument over many years.. and then have someone with more natural talent / synergy to that instrument pick it up and play it to the same level of proficiency in mere months because they are naturally more comfortable playing it.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I fail to see how we could be on the same page here when my central point is that the Riven mod system is fundamentally broken and needs to disappear, and yours is that we need to preserve Riven mods at all costs, if only in name. What you are proposing not only fails to make any tangible promises of sustainability or general appeal, but ultimately does not seem to describe Riven mods at all, as you apparently want much wackier effects, fewer DPS stats, and a completely different method of grinding them. It is precisely this kind of bargaining for the preservation of Riven mods at any cost that compounds my doubts as to the system's viability, as if the system needs to change so drastically as to be barely recognizable, I think the better solution would be to scrap the system first, see what can be improved, and only then consider the possibility of an alternate replacement.

Well this stands to reason, we haven't been able to see eye to eye because your position has been fixed on throwing it out regardless of how minimal the actual changes would need to be to turn it around again. There hasn't been a counter provided by you on how to address the 3 key points I keep bringing up if we just got rid of the riven system, quite likely because you realise it's hard to actually solve all 3 requirements that system set out to achieve.

If you actually compare the differences between the proposed changes and existing system it's a pretty small shift:

  • Players would still farm riven mods the same way they get them now
  • Players would still unveil said riven mods the same way they unveil them now
  • Players would still be farming kuva to change the stats on their riven mods
  • Players would still use riven mods to adjust stats on weapons
  • Players would still be selling and trading riven mods

The only thing that has actually changed here are that it now actually addressed those 3 requirements previously stated. Sure there are other "wackier effects" that could be obtained and I've stated that you are right, making that a focus point isn't a good idea. The method of grinding for rivens is identical where has that changed?

Edited by Jax_Cavalera

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6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Soma Prime is probably not an ideal example considering it's always been a very popular weapon so it's hard to really look at it's usage rating and draw anything conclusive from it not going up even further by a significant value.

That's not really true at the time Rivens were released, though: for sure, the Soma Prime was certainly not the worst weapon around, but wasn't top-tier either around the release of TWW, even if it once was in the game's past. Players quickly realized that Riven dispositions could be abused to make Primes even stronger, and thus the Soma Prime became the original recipient for god Rivens. Despite this, very little changed, because the Riven mod system by design cannot influence the metagame consistently on a large scale, which makes it a poorly-suited balance tool.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The gameplay between a marelok and atomos are completely different so whilst they may have similar DPS that same observation could equally be proving that more players enjoy using "beam" type weapons over single shot sidearms. It's hard again to draw anything conclusive either way from this kind of thing.

But this isn't true at all, as beams have notoriously received complaints for their mechanics, to the point where they needed a rework, whereas hand cannons have not. The Atomos is also specifically recommended in many player guides precisely because it is so easy to obtain. The fact that they have different gameplay has absolutely no relevance to the matter at hand, particularly as the same could be said for virtually any two weapons in an attempt to halt all comparison. There is a difference between a conclusion being difficult to reach due to unforeseen factors, and it being made to seem so with the introduction of red herrings.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I agree riven mods aren't going to somehow magically add new content into the game, they might help make it a little more fun to replay for a few runs as you mention, but this is an issue DE need to address in and of itself. I'd consider solving that out of scope for riven mods... nice if it can help a bit, but certainly not a goal they should be expected to achieve on their own.

If replayability is out of scope of this discussion, why try to attach it to Riven mods? For sure, replayability is a much larger topic of discussion, but my point here is that Rivens are unlikely to make players revisit older weapons, because there is still an added layer of inconvenience tied to making them work, plus there's still the RNG of which weapon the Riven ends up being for, which more often than not might just produce Rivens for weapons one doesn't care about.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Without any real data to back that up, it's not something we can really comment on either way. We don't have a workable riven system right now, we have one that encourages power creep and that's surely a more likely reason why we don't see low-tier weapons being picked up vs already powerful ones being made even more powerful.

But you can see that there isn't, though: you do get requests for older weapons to be made more viable, but rarely do people ever want to commit specifically to a single weak weapon, outside of some rare posts expressing nostalgia for what used to be BiS guns or the like. Moreover, lack of "real data" doesn't seem to have stopped you thus far, as you are not only making the opposite claim to mine here, but are banking on it to support a new Riven system that is itself entirely hypothetical. I don't think it's reasonable to ask to preserve or rework a system as complicated and data-hungry as Riven mods when there is nothing concrete to support that effort, much less when all signs so far seem to point in the opposite direction.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Only possible if a riven system supports power creep. While we don't have a riven system that prevents power creep, I'm unsure of where we could be drawing any current examples of this in action from.

But this isn't true either, what I'm saying is even more applicable in a Riven system that doesn't support power creep: if the power-creepiest version of a Riven you can get fails to add more power than a regular mod, that in turn implies that any other iteration for it will be even weaker, and thus even less worth picking. Thus, such a Riven mod would be unlikely to ever see consistent play at all, as it simply wouldn't be worth the effort.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Riven mods aren't meant to be solving game design issues related to warframe's progression system and it doesn't mean we should do nothing about the riven issue just because it can't silver bullet fix everything else in the game. A well built system comes about because it is exactly that, a system of multiple components working together. Rivens are just one piece of the larger puzzle that need to be addressed. You gain access to riven mods as you progress, and they become more relevant as you progress, it isn't a significant aspect of the overall progression system in the game.

I don't really see how this relates to the discussion at hand: if Riven mods aren't meant to be solving Warframe's progression system, why are you trying to implement them as a progression system? Also, my entire point is that Rivens and MR gates to weapons aren't "a system of multiple components working together", because under your implementation they would be working against each other, as pointed out above.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Quite the opposite, I'm describing how the synergy between both can contribute to the overall progression system in the game. New players are choosing more obvious roads to gain power, Veteran players are micro-optimizing by adjusting their loadout with gear that better suits their playstyle. Using gear that best suits the way someone approaches a task to increase overall efficiency / performance is nothing new to the gaming world let alone everywhere, it's a time tested proven fact.

But that doesn't work when those systems do not follow each other chronologically, and as mentioned already, it is "a time tested proven fact" that our top-tier gear already covers all the variations in efficiency/performance the game asks for. Moreover, your system requires veterans to inconvenience themselves just to revert to gear they'd abandoned or never considered in the first place, so I fail to see how that would contribute to better performance.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Probably not, using Mastery Rank to try and shoe-horn specific players into using riven mods is unlikely to have any real impact on who uses them. I believe you have made a compelling argument that new starter players will favour simplicity over complexity and it's only once you've mastered everything you can get out of simplicity that you start to drill down into the more complex systems for that meta optimization.

I don't think that's the case at all, as I've merely pointed out that your system would cause players to completely bypass either one or the other weapon progression system. If even you admit your proposal wouldn't accomplish its stated goals, what is even the point of it?

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

And yet I'm specifically talking about the continuous efforts demonstrated by DE to rework the way re-rolling riven mods works, the user interface for the re-roll screen, and a bunch of other stuff around it such as ongoing disposition adjustments we experience.

And how big exactly were those re-rolling and UI reworks? How much positive value are we getting from disposition changes? My point remains the same: make changes that benefit everyone, and you will benefit everyone. As a niche system with only limited general appeal, Riven mods thus fail to benefit everyone, and consequently the work put into them specifically also benefits far fewer players by design.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

That's the thing, they are constantly tweaking it, even in that video they specifically stated that it will be an on-going thing that changes based on player feedback, disposition changes are proof of this. The issue it sets out to address is a very real and valid one, The underlying concept has the potential to actually accomplish this goal. The current execution needs more tweaking before this can happen.

Tweaking a half-baked concept is not going to make it fully realized, and that is ultimately one of the biggest problems with the Riven mod system: for all the disposition changes, re-rolling changes, and whatnot, the fundamentals of the system are still poor, and the underlying concept cannot accomplish its stated goals by its very nature. The execution has already been tweaked many times, and hoping for that one tweak more to magically fix everything is wishful thinking, pure and simple.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

To list a few examples:

But all of these points have been addressed. Removing the RNG to Rivens just makes for a pure power creep system, and removing that power creep makes for a system nobody has any incentive to participate in. None of the "improvements" you proposed address these fundamental issues in any way, and not a single one of the quotes you listed explains in any manner why you believe the system isn't fundamentally flawed.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Examples where I speak to the parts that are good about the concept of rivens:

So... which parts about Rivens are good? Removing the RNG from them would make them less bad, but certainly not good, and as I've pointed out already, Rivens by design are poorly-suited to injecting viability into weaker weapons, especially when compared to direct balancing work. Again, we've been over this: there is no incentive for players to grind just to return to older weapons when stronger weapons are far easier to obtain, and when it comes to making weaker weapons viable, Riven mods are neither the only nor even the best way of going about it. The one good aspect to Riven mods you seem to be promoting is an aspect even you admitted above they'd be unlikely to deliver, even under your proposed overhaul, and that can be done better and more easily through simpler changes, let alone an entire additional system.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Sure my underlying standpoint on some of this has evolved due to the positive nature of this discussion but there we go examples to back up my claim that I have been saying what I said I've been saying.

... but what you've been saying has been shown to not work. You can repeat the same thing as many times as you'd like, but if that thing has already been disproven, that's not going to enshrine your claims in some kind of invulnerability, it just makes you go round in circles. As it stands, you have been asked to justify yourself on certain claims, and the only justification you have managed to give has been refuted several posts ago. Even you conceded that your position isn't nearly as strong as how you presented it before, so what then makes you believe any of your quotes still hold?

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

This discussion has been primarily subjective, the only things that haven't been subjective are the references to factual evidence I have been providing such as the actual quotes direct from DE staff and reference to well known and established facts such as how the principle of a Monopoly works or how equipment synergy works.

But this isn't true, as the quotes from DE staff themselves do not cohere with the results of there system, nor do they ever provide any qualitative information on Riven mods in practice, and I have pointed out in very simple terms how incentives work, what the current Riven system has achieved (which you've largely agreed with), and precedents in Warframe's history that lend credence to my claims. Dismissing this entire conversation as subjective is therefore not only blatantly false, but disrespectful.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

From my perspective it seemed like a reasonable comparison to make given what little existing non-DPS type mods exist. I guess from your perspective that may seem outlandish and that's fine, you're welcome to your opinion on that.

But your "perspective" here is based on an obvious misrepresentation of two entirely different classes of mod, is my point. This isn't a clash of subjective opinions, this is you making an obviously poor comparison and me pointing it out. If I made the claim that we should all douse ourselves in gravy and swim in shark-infested waters, purely on the basis that more people are killed by vending machines than by shark attacks, my claim isn't subjectively true from a certain point of view, it's bunk and based on a nonsensical comparison that does not support the stated conclusion.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

This is like trying to convince someone that 2 semi-automatic rifles are interchangeable because they're both semi-automatic and hoping they forget about considering the clip size, reload speeds, possible wind-up, zoom, other nuances.

Or like equating a trash Riven mod to a Peculiar mod because both are comparably useless, but I digress. As it stands, the analogy here is also poor, because it makes the mistake of conflating game requirements with personal preference: it does not matter if you prefer semi-auto rifle A or semi-auto rifle B, if the game simply asks that you have a semi-auto rifle, and A is superior to be, then A dominates, and B becomes superfluous. Not only is this basic propositional logic, this is something one can clearly see through the popularity of certain weapons over others. Thus, bolting on a convoluted system just to let B approach A is unlikely to solve the problem, certainly not when compared to just making A and B about equally strong.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Current system has no demand for them because of previously stated reasons ... most notably it endorses power creep on already powerful weapons. Fix that and suddenly you have demand.

How? Where is this demand magically coming from?

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Convenience is not the same as comfort. You can learn how to play a musical instrument over many years.. and then have someone with more natural talent / synergy to that instrument pick it up and play it to the same level of proficiency in mere months because they are naturally more comfortable playing it.

... how does this relate to the point made, exactly? I'm not talking about different people having different aptitudes for learning here, I'm simply pointing out the obvious fact that it will always be less convenient to learn or re-learn a different weapon compared to using the weapon one is familiar with when trying to achieve the same goal. No matter how you slice it, trying to make weapons viable via Rivens will always ask players to deploy additional and unnecessary efforts towards a redundant objective.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Well this stands to reason, we haven't been able to see eye to eye because your position has been fixed on throwing it out regardless of how minimal the actual changes would need to be to turn it around again.

This is neither true nor fair, and to some extend I believe there's a degree of projection here. My conclusion has been based on an analysis of the Riven system right down to its fundamentals, and the debate I've had with you has only reinforced that conclusion thanks to the additional analysis it provided. By contrast, you have visibly been fixated on preserving Riven mods before this conversation even started, and it's only after the fact that you've thrown around a whole bunch of arguments to try to retroactively justify yourself. In one paragraph, you claim that Rivens should exist as a balancing tool, and in the other, you claim they should exist as a collector's item if they happen to be completely useless. Neither side of that argumentative coin has been justified so far with anything concrete.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

There hasn't been a counter provided by you on how to address the 3 key points I keep bringing up if we just got rid of the riven system, quite likely because you realise it's hard to actually solve all 3 requirements that system set out to achieve.

... which 3 key points, exactly? My stance on weapons is rather simple: I think we should get rid of Rivens and balance weapons directly, because direct balance is easier and more likely to affect everyone, rather than a tiny niche of players. I think MR-based progression should be based on complexity of weapons and the higher rewards they can provide for more difficult play, rather than raw power, and I believe diversity should stem from weapons themselves and a comprehensive rework to the modding system, which even you seem to agree would be necessary even with Rivens in play. The latter is even more reason to get rid of Rivens, because so long as Rivens continue to be a purely stat-based modding system, they will continue to be an obstacle to any sort of more tailored or unique modding scheme, and even basic balancing work done to regular mods would have to then be copied across to Rivens.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

If you actually compare the differences between the proposed changes and existing system it's a pretty small shift:

  • Players would still farm riven mods the same way they get them now
  • Players would still unveil said riven mods the same way they unveil them now
  • Players would still be farming kuva to change the stats on their riven mods

And this is a part that's heavily complained about, so if your proposal makes no difference, what does it actually fix?

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:
  • Players would still use riven mods to adjust stats on weapons

Which can be said of any mod, and thus ultimately says nothing about the thought process behind which stats to mod, or the intent behind equipping certain mods over others. As said above already, if you take out the power creep element, players have no real incentive to use Rivens at all, outside of the niche desire to make an old weapon viable again.

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:
  • Players would still be selling and trading riven mods

For how much? How would this compare to now? Riven mods are currently traded heavily on the promise of power creep (that's the entire premise behind god Rivens), so what guarantees that you'd still have the same kind of trade after that disappears?

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

The only thing that has actually changed here are that it now actually addressed those 3 requirements previously stated. Sure there are other "wackier effects" that could be obtained and I've stated that you are right, making that a focus point isn't a good idea. The method of grinding for rivens is identical where has that changed?

But even you admitted your proposal would be unlikely to address whichever requirements you've set for yourself, so how can you be so sure? I also was referring to the way you wanted players to control the stats on Riven mods, which effectively does change the way players would grind for them (you'd be locking down stats you want instead of going for a complete slot-machine redo with every roll). Why wouldn't you be proposing a change to Riven grinding when Riven grinding is one of its biggest current pain points?

  • Applause 1

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I liked the Riven system a lot.  It was fun and exciting seeing how far u could push weapons.  At this point it seems completely broken. This nerfing every few months makes me not want to waste anytime on them.  At this point I buy cheap unnrolled rivens every once in a while for bad weapons (5/5 dispo) for fun, otherwise I dont bother with them.  I cannot believe people are buying any riven over a few hundred plat that could be ruined at any moment.   

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8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Soma Prime was certainly not the worst weapon around, but wasn't top-tier either around the release of TWW

From the day before TWW was released: 

As can be seen, it was still considered a top-tier weapon by the community at that time.

 

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:
Quote

The gameplay between a marelok and atomos are completely different so whilst they may have similar DPS that same observation could equally be proving that more players enjoy using "beam" type weapons over single shot sidearms. It's hard again to draw anything conclusive either way from this kind of thing.

But this isn't true at all, as beams have notoriously received complaints for their mechanics, to the point where they needed a rework,

This is not true, see examples of people posting praise of beam weapons (again these are very quick searches, you don't have to look far to see that beam weapons are still quite enjoyed).
https://warframe.fandom.com/f/p/3258895044706332160
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/926085-beam-weapons/
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1118494-high-skill-ceiling-weapons-frames-abilities-should-be-better/?do=findComment&comment=10948205

 

But again not the point, the point being attempting to draw anything conclusive is still subjective without a significant dataset only DE would have access to that shows full weapon usage over a timeline.

 

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

because there is still an added layer of inconvenience tied to making them work, plus there's still the RNG of which weapon the Riven ends up being for, which more often than not might just produce Rivens for weapons one doesn't care about.

This is no different different to how we get any other mod in the game. The argument of riven mods being an inconvenience to the point players won't grind for them doesn't hold water as we have a long list of mods in the game that players have been more than happy to grind for with significantly less payoff stats.

 

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Moreover, lack of "real data" doesn't seem to have stopped you thus far,

I could throw shade back but it won't benefit the discussion, needless to say the points i've made have either been backed up by references and facts or I've otherwise conceded on them where it was proven to be too subjective. If we are going to make progress here, there needs to come a point in time where the points I have provided fact and reference to get acknowledged, we can't make progress if both sides are unwilling to give ground when proven to be off point.

 

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But this isn't true either, what I'm saying is even more applicable in a Riven system that doesn't support power creep: if the power-creepiest version of a Riven you can get fails to add more power than a regular mod, that in turn implies that any other iteration for it will be even weaker, and thus even less worth picking. Thus, such a Riven mod would be unlikely to ever see consistent play at all, as it simply wouldn't be worth the effort.

I disagree that it makes what I stated untrue, the current riven system does support power creep. You have said so as well.

I will agree that a correctly working riven system would need to take this into consideration because you are correct, the current system applies the same mod stats to all versions of a weapon. Each version of a weapon should have a unique disposition if DE want players to be able to bring any version of a weapon to end game content.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

why are you trying to implement them as a progression system? Also, my entire point is that Rivens and MR gates to weapons aren't "a system of multiple components working together", because under your implementation they would be working against each other, as pointed out above.

I'm not, if anything it seems this is something you have been pushing for. I'm saying they can be part of the progression system but they are not  on their own a progression system. Also since we previously covered the topic about MR being at odds or not adding the value I was considering it might add, it was agreed to be a moot point and removed from consideration. It's not about the MR it's about the natural progression from a new player to a veteran and what kind of optimisations are left for those players to be making on their builds and loadouts.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But that doesn't work when those systems do not follow each other chronologically,

I'm confident that players chronologically start out as new and eventually become veterans. Do you have examples that prove contrary to this?

 

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

so I fail to see how that would contribute to better performance.

I've provided ample examples of how even the slightest nuance between 2 weapons makes a difference to preferred combat style. I won't dive further on this as it seems we are unable to cover any more ground on this point.

 

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If even you admit your proposal wouldn't accomplish its stated goals, what is even the point of it?

The point is to adjust it so it can accomplish them, that's why it's a proposal.

Look at the end of the day, each post from you has never given ground even when proven it was blatantly clear it needs to and that's unfortunate. I don't believe we are going to arrive at a point where we can simply admit together that we're wanting the same things for the game because it strikes me that you have a very contrary personality. That's not intended as shade either I have a similar personality, and have learnt that if we can't at least admit when we've been pushing a failed viewpoint and pivot to something that works better, we're simply hoping to steamroll other people.

Winning an argument by steamrolling isn't the same thing as actually convincing someone, but for that to happen both people need to at least be open to concede where their original perspective was not quite correct.

Anyway it's been a really good discussion and you have raised quite a lot of very good points that I'll be taking into consideration when I update the proposal again. Thanks for helping to call out the issues with the proposal so a better one can be constructed.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

From the day before TWW was released: 

As can be seen, it was still considered a top-tier weapon by the community at that time.

It was considered the best assault rifle at the time, not a top-tier weapon, as noted itself in the replies, and so because its competitors then were the Stradavar and the Supra. Assault rifles were not good, and still are nowhere near the most powerful weapons now.

Quote

This is not true, see examples of people posting praise of beam weapons (again these are very quick searches, you don't have to look far to see that beam weapons are still quite enjoyed).
https://warframe.fandom.com/f/p/3258895044706332160
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/926085-beam-weapons/
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1118494-high-skill-ceiling-weapons-frames-abilities-should-be-better/?do=findComment&comment=10948205

These all discuss beam weapons after the rework I described. One of the thread OPs even points out how bad beam weapons were before the changes. Did you even read the threads you linked? While you're at it, feel free to look up content creators like Quiette Shy, who themselves comment on the state of beam weapons and corroborate what I've said.

Quote

But again not the point, the point being attempting to draw anything conclusive is still subjective without a significant dataset only DE would have access to that shows full weapon usage over a timeline.

Which makes your own claims as to the invalidity of my comparison meaningless, as they are also completely unfounded. It does not take a "significant dataset" to have at least some idea that the Atomos is more popular than the Vaykor Marelok in the game's current state (you can look up content creators like Brozime that give in-depth explanations), and I fail to see why you are suddenly so concerned with scientific levels of data-backed evidence when you have relied on absolutely none so far to support any of the claims you have produced up until this point.

Quote

This is no different different to how we get any other mod in the game.

False, "any other mod in the game" applies to an entire class of weapons, not just one, and has predictable, preset stats. Riven mods have neither of these advantages, and both are determined by RNG, even in the case where one could lock down the stats one would want.

Quote

The argument of riven mods being an inconvenience to the point players won't grind for them doesn't hold water as we have a long list of mods in the game that players have been more than happy to grind for with significantly less payoff stats.

Because they are static mods with predictable stats that therefore have collector's value as reasonably finite items. Riven mods, on the other hand, are meaningless on their own, as they are procedurally generated. There is no inherent point to collecting any particular Riven mod, because that mod has no identity or intrinsic point of distinction from the other multitude of possible combinations. Once you've filled up on your Riven cap (which, by the way, doesn't exist for proper mods), your Riven collection ends there.

Quote

I could throw shade back but it won't benefit the discussion, needless to say the points i've made have either been backed up by references and facts or I've otherwise conceded on them where it was proven to be too subjective.

But this isn't true at all, and my "shade" referred to your claims that your idealized Riven system would somehow work despite all evidence produced to the contrary. You have relied on zero concrete references, and fewer facts still: where is your proof that your system will work? Where is the "significant dataset" showing that anything you have said so far is reliable? The most you have produced on this post has been links to threads that do not even support your point, and that are in fact so poorly supportive of it that it casts suspicion as to why you would even bother to dress them up as valid evidence in the first place.

Quote

If we are going to make progress here, there needs to come a point in time where the points I have provided fact and reference to get acknowledged, we can't make progress if both sides are unwilling to give ground when proven to be off point.

I agree, so long as we hold to alternative interpretations of facts and reality, we are at an impasse. This is why I find your last few posts particularly alarming, as you've recently been insisting upon this factual basis to your claims, when in practice there is strictly none. I am suspicious about the "evidence" you have produced here because it so evidently fails to support your point that I do not understand why you would even attempt to introduce it here: if we cannot even agree on the very nature of facts, truth, and reality, then one of us is either delusional or attempting to gaslight the other (or both), and that's the end of civil conversation right there.

Quote

I disagree that it makes what I stated untrue, the current riven system does support power creep. You have said so as well.

And where exactly have I claimed the opposite? I merely pointed out that the problem I mentioned would be amplified in a Riven mod system that had no power creep, because it would mean that even the strongest version of a Riven mod one could obtain would, at best, only bring a weapon up to par with weapons that don't need such convoluted efforts. I'm not sure if you understood the point of comparison at this stage.

Quote

I will agree that a correctly working riven system would need to take this into consideration because you are correct, the current system applies the same mod stats to all versions of a weapon. Each version of a weapon should have a unique disposition if DE want players to be able to bring any version of a weapon to end game content.

... which would still not address the problem I pointed out, because what I pointed out would apply to all Riven mods in your system, regardless of which weapon they're on, assuming your system would have no power creep. I'm not sure here whether this is a genuine misunderstanding, or merely an attempt to avoid addressing an uncomfortable point.

Quote

I'm not, if anything it seems this is something you have been pushing for.

This is a lie, as evidenced here:

On 2019-08-11 at 11:25 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

Sure it's not immediately obvious to a new starter that riven mods are how you can bring your favourite weapon up to scratch end game once you reach a high enough MR to equip said riven mod, but that's also part of the whole progression thing. The weapon to a new player feels less powerful than higher MR weapons because... it naturally is weaker than them. Once they get to a high enough level they gain the power of equipping a riven mod onto it so it can be re-used again. This concept is not at odds with the ideology of gaining power through progression.

This is you openly claiming that you intend for Rivens to be a part of the game's progression systems. How exactly do you intend for a system you explicitly want to give weapons more power to not be a part of power progression?

Quote

I'm saying they can be part of the progression system but they are not  on their own a progression system.

Where exactly did I make the claim that you wanted Rivens to be an independent progression system from weapons? You are transparently arguing on semantics here, as nothing you are saying here contradicts in any way the fact I raised that your ideal of Rivens as a method of making progress via older weapons runs counter to the notion of players progress via obtaining new weapons, and so by design.

Quote

Also since we previously covered the topic about MR being at odds or not adding the value I was considering it might add, it was agreed to be a moot point and removed from consideration. It's not about the MR it's about the natural progression from a new player to a veteran and what kind of optimisations are left for those players to be making on their builds and loadouts.

I'm sorry, where did I ever agree that MR as a discussion topic was a moot point? You are flat-out dismissing what you don't want to answer here.

Quote

I'm confident that players chronologically start out as new and eventually become veterans. Do you have examples that prove contrary to this?

I don't, because the statement is self-evident, but how exactly does this relate to the point at hand? What I pointed out was the rather basic fact that players can access Riven mods long before they become veterans, and that if you were to withhold Riven mods until whichever arbitrary endpoint past which players qualify for veteran status, then you might as well kill the system completely, as it would only be used by a niche of a niche. Surely, you realize that it's not a good idea to design such a complex and technologically costly system for only a fraction of the playerbase, one who may not even want to partake in it?

Quote

I've provided ample examples of how even the slightest nuance between 2 weapons makes a difference to preferred combat style. I won't dive further on this as it seems we are unable to cover any more ground on this point.

Such as? Where exactly are these "ample examples", pray tell?

Quote

The point is to adjust it so it can accomplish them, that's why it's a proposal.

Accomplish them how? There seems to be this constant promise of a perfect, idyllic solution to Riven mods, that after three pages of argumentation has never quite seemed to materialize. What is this perfect system, and how does it accomplish your stated goals? Because what you've proposed so far visibly doesn't, and is fraught with critical flaws while failing to address existing ones.

Quote

Look at the end of the day, each post from you has never given ground even when proven it was blatantly clear it needs to and that's unfortunate. I don't believe we are going to arrive at a point where we can simply admit together that we're wanting the same things for the game because it strikes me that you have a very contrary personality. That's not intended as shade either I have a similar personality, and have learnt that if we can't at least admit when we've been pushing a failed viewpoint and pivot to something that works better, we're simply hoping to steamroll other people.

I do think this is shade, because you are blaming me completely for our disagreement in this exchange, and so under the bizarre belief that arguing is a process of quid-pro-quo where if one person says something wrong and concedes because of it, that automatically means the other person did and should too. Perhaps that is why you've made so many claims in your recent posts that you knew right off the bat to be untrue. My position has not changed because you have failed to produce any rational reason for it to do so: the only thing going for your proposal is that you really, really hope it works, and that is simply not good enough.

Moreover, it is hypocritical of you to accuse me of intransigence when you are guilty of the exact same: you have made many specious claims over the course of this argument that you largely corrected once called out, but the fundamental problem with your line of argumentation remains that you are more concerned with preserving Riven mods in whichever shape or form than you are with asking why doing so would be a good, let alone necessary thing. Early on in this argument, you expressed the personal opinion that criticism of Riven mods was inherently unproductive, and that we all just needed to "look at the positive side to the system", a notion with rather disturbing implications that I think only further highlights why we are at an impasse now: you cannot accept any course of action that does not involve preserving Riven mods in some form, and reject any alternative proposal on that premise alone. That is why you chose to argue on an updated Riven system only long after you expressed the desire to preserve Riven mods, and why you have consistently tried to reinterpret my criticism of Riven mods right down to their fundamentals as mere suggestions for improvement. We're not failing to move forward just because I "have a very contrary personality" or whichever bullcrap, we're failing to move forward because your entire premise for this argument is based on wishful thinking and sheer denial, and you refuse to acknowledge this even in the face of contrary evidence and logic.

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Winning an argument by steamrolling isn't the same thing as actually convincing someone, but for that to happen both people need to at least be open to concede where their original perspective was not quite correct.

This fundamentally understands how argumentation works: arguments are not an exchange of concessions, arguments are about sorting what is true from what is not, what is subjective from what can be verified independently. For this, we certainly need common ground, notably a common understanding of what constitutes truth, facts, evidence, and objectivity (which doesn't seem to entirely be the case at this stage in the debate), but that does not mean that I should falsely claim a point of mine to be wrong or moot just because you did so for one of yours. I am not trying to steamroll you here, I have merely made points you have refused to address, and are now deploying monumental efforts towards avoiding to do so any further. If you think you can make me concede my position simply by showering me with specious claims, promptly conceding their debatability, and then expecting me to give up some similar amount of my own out of some strange sense of reciprocity, think again. 

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Anyway it's been a really good discussion and you have raised quite a lot of very good points that I'll be taking into consideration when I update the proposal again. Thanks for helping to call out the issues with the proposal so a better one can be constructed.

This comes across as a tad fake, even a little gaslight-y, when the issues I've pointed out are fundamental issues that would make your system unlikely to accomplish any of its stated goals, issues that are themselves tied to the very nature of Riven mods as a system. My entire point so far, as supported by my arguments, is that the Riven mod system by design cannot accomplish its stated goals, and by even your own admission likely never even tried to. While I can agree that we want many of the same things in the sense that we want a balanced, diverse arsenal of viable weapons, as well as diversity of play and customization, I do not believe your proposed way of achieving this has any real hope of working, because you are working backwards from your conclusion, namely that there has to be some sort of Riven mod system in place to fulfil these objectives, in deliberate ignorance of why that hasn't worked so far, and will not work no matter the amount of tweaks, updates, or improvements. Unless your updated proposal replaces Riven mods with some entirely different modding scheme that has none of the core characteristics of Rivens, or scraps the system outright, you cannot claim with any honesty that you took anything I've said to heart.

Edited by Teridax68
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On 2019-07-06 at 8:52 PM, Descent-of-Damocles said:

What can we do to fix this? (Just any one of these will do)

  1. Cap the minimum dispo so it never drops before 1 dispo. The very core of the problem is 0.5 dispo (meaning half the power of a regular mod) means what it mean. With 2 stats or 3 stats, being so weak, you might as well not use a riven. It takes up a slot, it's bound to weapon, it's not worth the trouble unless you get a 2+1- dmg,ms, where it would then be marginally better than primed elementals. 0.1% near perfect roll to get a small bump in performance, wow... Can you believe that 0.5 of a riven mod times 2 stats to choose from, is not much better than 1.65 of a primed mod?
  2. Make rivens it's own special slot. The kitguns and zaws are going to have it bad. They have a dedicated arcane slot that will make them superior to any non-modular counterpart. They are inherently OP, and so their rivens are just junk soon™. If rivens are their own slot, then there wouldn't be a complaint about dispositions being too low. they become an inherent bonus to whatever the gun was in the first place. We're removing the opportunity cost of possessing a riven that's bounded to a weapon. Your investment is no longer trivialized compared to the normal joe, you just wont have as much of it, which is where I think DE intended it.
  3. Fix bad weapons. You can't honestly think a 1.5 dispo stug with it's glorious 5% 1.5x crit specification and a whopping 0% status chance makes up for anything. We're at a point where good weapons aren't good, they're normal. The bad weapons are just unusable. The disposition thing would have to be kept at a solid 1 dispo for all weapons, and rebalance each weapon's stats accordingly. This is what other games do, they balance the game, not your accounts (and specifically only invested player's accounts would have rivens to be nerfed, so you're basically only screwing over the loyalist of customers at this point). Other game companies don't nerf inventories without compensation, instead, they nerf the global mechanics of the game (to make it grindier and encourage players to purchase boosters and micro transactions with real money)

I don't mind my rivens for strong weapons being nerfed but I do agree with you that it should not be to the point where regular mods will outperform them for less effort. A riven slot or a higher minimum dispo would solve this problem easily.

Another big reason why rivens can't solve bad weapons being bad is the fact that these mods scale based on %base stats meaning they will still be bad even when u have a god roll. At that point why go through all these RNG walls for little return when you can just get a better weapon?

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8 hours ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Rivens need to balanced often not DE's fault cause you have buyer's remorse 

They are 100% responsible for it as they created the system, not the buyers. Currently the system allows buyers to roll for weapon stat buffs that drive power creep on already powerful gear. This system will then wait for enough players to invest into the new top tier powerful weapon (popularity) before it nerfs the effectiveness of the item a (now large) collection of players have invested in.

There are quite a few ways this problem could have been avoided, namely by simply providing players with a selection of fixed weapon stat buffs that would not contribute to power creep on already powerful gear. Then there would be no reason to nerf popular rivens as the system would be pre-balanced out of the gate.

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On 2019-07-06 at 9:52 PM, Descent-of-Damocles said:

This is probably the last time I'm going to play the riven nerf game before I just quit on the next one. It's too stress inducing to play this kuva game, roll something good, get nerfed, start over. Or on the other hand, pay for platinum, trade for riven, get nerfed, riven does worse than 165% primed elemental mod.

To start, lets list the problems with the current system in a clear and short manner:

  1. Bad weapons are not going to benefit from high disposition rivens. 300% of base crit 5, is only a 15% increase to 20%
  2. A nerf to high dispositions makes a huge difference. Shotguns don't reach 100% status chance, vectis prime doesnt reach 1 magazine size.
  3. Snipers are nerfed as a category. They're strong, but hard to use in a horde-shooter close-quarters-combat themed game, but that's not considered in riven disposition criteria.
  4. Aklex and Sicarus got nerfed again. Doesn't literally nobody use them already? Every other gun out performs them already, so it seems bad weapons are still getting nerfed
  5. At 0.5 disposition, primed elementals are already stronger, because 2 stats with 50% strength of a mod is no match for 165% of a primed mod. Unless of course your specific weapon needs an exhausted stat like status chance on shotguns with low base
  6. Why is breaking player inventory more viable than fixing bad weapons that dont fit any useful criteria of the game?
  7. Why is this "internal power rating" not disclosed?
     

Now why is this harmful to the community?

  1. Spent thousands of platinum on that riven? Should have purchased the primed elemental mod instead.
  2. You spent thousands of hours kuva farming for the perfect roll, and now it's irrelevant? Well done.
  3. Your snipers, shotguns and weapons no longer work or feel the same because fire rate, recoil, magazine and IPS are stats you can roll? Get used to the new feel or dont use the riven.
  4. The stug is 1.5 disposition? Better get that 300% critical chance and 150% status chance to make that 5% critical chance go to 20% and 0% status chance go to... 0%? Nvm dont use high dispo rivens for bad weapons.
  5. Your tiberon got nerfed? Better spend forma, plat, and time to get a new replacement gun. And btw, you're going to have to buy a COMPLETELY NEW RIVEN or ROLL YOUR OWN. That's either going to be a couple hundred dollars, or a few hundred hours, your call.
  6. You used to get 100% status on a shotgun for corrosive? Now you'll have to deal with all 4 dual stats so you dilute corrosive with blast, and blast will prone enemies. GL
  7. Vectis prime no longer able to get 1 magazine size? Use depleted reload, it's not like it takes up a slot or anything.
  8. Rubico prime, lanka, and kitguns are killing eidolons? Lets make that a little harder now, (as if chroma nerf wasnt enough. Mirage nerf is next btw, since someone found a way to use mirage as OG chroma and can 1 shot eidolons again).

What can we do to fix this? (Just any one of these will do)

  1. Cap the minimum dispo so it never drops before 1 dispo. The very core of the problem is 0.5 dispo (meaning half the power of a regular mod) means what it mean. With 2 stats or 3 stats, being so weak, you might as well not use a riven. It takes up a slot, it's bound to weapon, it's not worth the trouble unless you get a 2+1- dmg,ms, where it would then be marginally better than primed elementals. 0.1% near perfect roll to get a small bump in performance, wow... Can you believe that 0.5 of a riven mod times 2 stats to choose from, is not much better than 1.65 of a primed mod?
  2. Make rivens it's own special slot. The kitguns and zaws are going to have it bad. They have a dedicated arcane slot that will make them superior to any non-modular counterpart. They are inherently OP, and so their rivens are just junk soon™. If rivens are their own slot, then there wouldn't be a complaint about dispositions being too low. they become an inherent bonus to whatever the gun was in the first place. We're removing the opportunity cost of possessing a riven that's bounded to a weapon. Your investment is no longer trivialized compared to the normal joe, you just wont have as much of it, which is where I think DE intended it.
  3. Fix bad weapons. You can't honestly think a 1.5 dispo stug with it's glorious 5% 1.5x crit specification and a whopping 0% status chance makes up for anything. We're at a point where good weapons aren't good, they're normal. The bad weapons are just unusable. The disposition thing would have to be kept at a solid 1 dispo for all weapons, and rebalance each weapon's stats accordingly. This is what other games do, they balance the game, not your accounts (and specifically only invested player's accounts would have rivens to be nerfed, so you're basically only screwing over the loyalist of customers at this point). Other game companies don't nerf inventories without compensation, instead, they nerf the global mechanics of the game (to make it grindier and encourage players to purchase boosters and micro transactions with real money)

Rivens should be removed all along, and buff weapons on another way like based on your profile rank, so wont affect new players

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10 hours ago, Furappi said:

Rivens should be removed all along, and buff weapons on another way like based on your profile rank, so wont affect new players

I can help you remove ALL your Rivens for free. Contact me in game to do the trade. 

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7 hours ago, George_PPS said:

I can help you remove ALL your Rivens for free. Contact me in game to do the trade. 

haha... funny stuff

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You cannot balance bad weapons with high riven disposition. And nerfing riven disposition for good weapons only aggravate the player base by invalidating effort put to obtain and roll the riven.

The entire riven system needs redesign.

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On 2019-07-06 at 7:52 PM, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Why is this "internal power rating" not disclosed?

Going to just ignore the rest of the post and answer this question.

If by "internal power rating" you mean how they decided to buff and nerf dispos, that is simply weapon usage statistics. If you want that information to be public, hiding that request in this massive complaint thread isn't a good way of going about it.

If you're talking about Riven stat modifiers based on weapon type, I have an excuse to explain how this is done. The following information is based on Semlar's Riven calculator, which I believe to be the most accurate of its kind.

Each weapon type has a static modifier list for every possible stat a Riven can roll. Those numbers can be found here: https://10o.io/rivens/rivencalc.json in the buff table, right after the weapon table.

For each stat, that number is multiplied by the Riven disposition to create a temporary "base" stat. That base stat is then multiplied by another modifier based on the number of bonuses & curses. That table looks a little different based on who implemented the calculations, but I have simplified it here:
Bonus Weights =  { +++, +++-, ++, ++-

0.75, 0.9375, 0.99, 1.2375

}

Curse Weights =   { +++, ++

0.75, 0.495

}

So to recap, we have: base = ( dispo * stat_modifier * count_modifier )

The random variance is basically 10% of the base stat. So var = (base * 0.1); max = base + var; min = base - var;

So there you go. This is how Riven stats are generated. Power ratings are all based on weapon type. This information is public to people who are willing to do a little digging.

I know everyone is salty about the Riven nerfs, but it is what it is. Your Rubico will still kill Eidolons very fast, and Catchmoon Rivens probably deserve to be un-slotable. As someone who pretty much only plays the game for Riven mods, I have accepted that they will get buffed and nerfed a long time ago. You don't have to agree with it, but it is a crucial part of how Riven mods were designed. If it is really destroying your desire to play this game, then I think you are too attached to a small handful of weapons.

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14 hours ago, (XB1)francy x096 said:

some riven are too overpowered and make the game too easy

You do not need to use any Rivens so the game can be more difficult for you only. Better yet, you can even equip just 7 Mods for all items to make it more fun if that’s your thing. 

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On 2019-10-10 at 11:37 AM, swinginman said:

Going to just ignore the rest of the post and answer this question.

If by "internal power rating" you mean how they decided to buff and nerf dispos, that is simply weapon usage statistics. If you want that information to be public, hiding that request in this massive complaint thread isn't a good way of going about it.

If you're talking about Riven stat modifiers based on weapon type, I have an excuse to explain how this is done. The following information is based on Semlar's Riven calculator, which I believe to be the most accurate of its kind.

Each weapon type has a static modifier list for every possible stat a Riven can roll. Those numbers can be found here: https://10o.io/rivens/rivencalc.json in the buff table, right after the weapon table.

For each stat, that number is multiplied by the Riven disposition to create a temporary "base" stat. That base stat is then multiplied by another modifier based on the number of bonuses & curses. That table looks a little different based on who implemented the calculations, but I have simplified it here:
Bonus Weights =  { +++, +++-, ++, ++-

0.75, 0.9375, 0.99, 1.2375

}

Curse Weights =   { +++, ++

0.75, 0.495

}

So to recap, we have: base = ( dispo * stat_modifier * count_modifier )

The random variance is basically 10% of the base stat. So var = (base * 0.1); max = base + var; min = base - var;

So there you go. This is how Riven stats are generated. Power ratings are all based on weapon type. This information is public to people who are willing to do a little digging.

I know everyone is salty about the Riven nerfs, but it is what it is. Your Rubico will still kill Eidolons very fast, and Catchmoon Rivens probably deserve to be un-slotable. As someone who pretty much only plays the game for Riven mods, I have accepted that they will get buffed and nerfed a long time ago. You don't have to agree with it, but it is a crucial part of how Riven mods were designed. If it is really destroying your desire to play this game, then I think you are too attached to a small handful of weapons.

Sorry, thats not what I meant. We already know how the numbers are done. What we DON'T know is their internal discussion on why they nerf weapons besides popularity. This post was way back when they did the Fortuna changes, where an internal discussion was associated to the typical popularity rating when deciding which weapons get buffed and nerfed.

I also agree that rivens are pretty much designed to be a false hope. It's almost a cash grab at this point to stir up plat exchanges when things start to settle. I just think that if DE genuinely wanted to balance their weapons, they'd make actual base changes. Remember, these only effect dedicated players who are rich enough or lucky enough to get good rivens. They make these changes with disregard to facts like: damage, critical chance, multishot and negative is not the only combination possible. Take catchmoon for example, it doesnt do more damage than rubico, but it's innately good because of INFINITE PUNCH THROUGH and INFINITE AMMO and WIDE SWEEPING AoE that clears hallways worth of enemies. What a riven nerf will NOT do is remove that Infinite Punch Through, Infinite Ammo, Wide Sweeping AoE. It even can be built with guaranteed critical hits without rivens. There does not exist a a possible nerf that would make players NOT use the catchmoon. So DE's popularity treatment and balancing the game is a lie. The only thing this does is make you spend more on riven replacements by making your old rivens worthless. That 3k Tiberon, now 500p, that 3k Catchmoon now 1k, that Godly Opticor, that decent opticor... Now replace it with the new Fulmin rivens by spending another 3k, Fulmin nerf, now worth 1.5k. This is called planned obsolescence. Apple does this to their old iphones and ipods via software updates to force their customers to buy new phones and devices. There's absolutely no reason for a game to introduce balance changes by nerfing (NOT THE CONTENT, but) the players inventories. This has become so bad that you'd never find any Akstilleto riven worth buying in the place of Primed Heated Charge, so you get the new Acceltra, get a new riven, and buy more plat to make it happen.

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The single most important factor in making Rivens actually improve bad weapons is to add a value of BASE stat in addition to the increased percentage. Obviously, the existing percentage stats would need to be balanced based off non-trash weapons, but then we'd see actual improvements in the trash stuff, and we could enjoy a slightly less broken system.

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