The Duviri Paradox

[(NSW)UltPumpkinPie]

So the trailer for the Duviri Paradox really threw a wrench into the works for what I thought was lore and the storyline and in the few hours since TennoLive I haven't been able to stop thinking about it but in that time, I think it figured out what the real story/timeline is or at least is leading towards and what's going to happen in that future release.

Basically, the idea is that the timeline is twisted. We know that chornologicaly, history looks like this: The Zariman gets lost in void, comes back, Margulis puts the Tenno into the second dream, the old war happens, Tenno dismantle empire and vanish until present day.

But what I think really happens to the Tenno themselves is this: Zariman gets lost in the void, comes back, Margulis puts the Tenno into the second dream. These same Tenno wake up in present time with no memories of what happened between the two parts of the timeline because It. Hasn't. Happened. To. Them. Yet. 

It's after waking up in present day that we go back in time and dismantle the orokin empire. After that who knows? Probably we go back to present day and things continue like 'normal'? whatever that ends up being. This is of course assuming that this new faction is going to be the orokin themselves which we technically haven't seen yet. Also I don't really know quite how the old war/new war falls into this but that could also be apart of the altered timeline, because all this time tomfoolery happens cause of the void and the sentients traveled through it too.

Finally, there is the possibility of us ending up along multiple places at the same chronological time because of re-entering this 'time break' multiple times (would explain the part with the tigris) and all of this would explain why the Tenno never aged even though it seemed (to me at least) that the old war lasted for hundreds of years. 

TLDR; some time tomfoolery happens and our Tenno doesn't remember the old war because it hasn't actually happened to them yet. 

Edit: some typos fixed. I'll probably need to fix more, too

Edited July 7, 2019 by (NSW)UltPumpkinPie

[BGamer18]

Do you think that the skeleton horse like thing is an orokin creation or something else unknown? The guy riding on it kind of resembled a Dax is why I am asking.

[BGamer18]

Also... great speculation btw

[(NSW)UltPumpkinPie]

24 minutes ago, BGamer18 said:

Do you think that the skeleton horse like thing is an orokin creation or something else unknown? The guy riding on it kind of resembled a Dax is why I am asking.

That's what I'm thinking is the case. As soon as I saw that guy's hat I, too, thought Dax. There's also an image you can see in the fade out or whatever that was shown in a previous devstream (I think?) That reminded me of Ballas and the Dax which is what brought all the pieces together for me. 

[BGamer18]

1 minute ago, (NSW)UltPumpkinPie said:

That's what I'm thinking is the case. As soon as I saw that guy's hat I, too, thought Dax. There's also an image you can see in the fade out or whatever that was shown in a previous devstream (I think?) That reminded me of Ballas and the Dax which is what brought all the pieces together for me. 

Ok thanks so i'm not crazy lol. The main thing that kind of confuses me is that this trailer seems to more fitted for a lore oriented quest rather than a trailer that is tied into an open world. I am aware of the fact that DE has said they are not showing off the new open world (for now) but never the less I am still confused about how this could possibly tie its self into an open world. This trailer seems as if it may be more directed towards the evolution of the operator and maybe just warframe lore in general. The reason why I say it may be at the least geared towards the evolution of operator is because of the description of the trailer on youtube. If you didn't notice it already the description says "Tenno, it’s time to grow up." which leads me to believe that The Duviri Paradox may not be an open world related thing but possibly either another prologue or quest of sorts. I believe that the Plains of Duviri (the name of the new open world) and The Duviri Paradox may be two separate things. I can't tell if they will be released at the same time but I have supported my claim above regardless.

[Aesthier]

58 minutes ago, BGamer18 said:

Do you think that the skeleton horse like thing is an orokin creation or something else unknown? The guy riding on it kind of resembled a Dax is why I am asking.

And here I thought it was handed out as an opportunity for meme creation.

 

[BGamer18]

Just now, Aesthier said:

And here I thought it was handed out as an opportunity for meme creation.

 

Absolute masterpiece 

[Oreades]

Hmm I just assumed that it was going to mean that we somehow created the Void or directly caused the accident on the Zariman that lead to us being Tenno in the first place. 

But the disjointed timeline whoozle is kinda more interesting. If that is the case it kinda makes me wish that they had gone with the Duviri Paradox first and then gone with The Old War instead of going with The New War. 

Cause now (again if that is the case and it well could be) if they go with The Old War at some point it's going to feel kinda samey to a point. 

 

Tho all things considered they NAILED the Sentient design for The New War ❤️

Edited July 7, 2019 by Oreades

[Illuminaut]

There's some clear 'what you do in the past translates to the future' time wizardry going on in the trailer, especially with the Tigris that gets stashed by the younger Operator and picked up by the older. Also going by the scenery there's plenty of Void energy swirling about. So maybe this next open world area is somewhere in the Void?

[(NSW)UltPumpkinPie]

7 hours ago, Illuminaut said:

There's some clear 'what you do in the past translates to the future' time wizardry going on in the trailer, especially with the Tigris that gets stashed by the younger Operator and picked up by the older. Also going by the scenery there's plenty of Void energy swirling about. So maybe this next open world area is somewhere in the Void?

You are so right, even the name 'paradox' indicates that something like that is going on and I've seen some people on Tumblr talking about other ways to approach the paradox with alternative futures intertwined with the past  but it does all seem to point to something happening with time being messed with.

While my ideas are mostly formed around my answering questions and filling existing plot holes in response to what might happen with this reveal, it does leave the question of what that means gameplay wise and I'm glad you and @BGamer18 brought it up.

@BGamer18

9 hours ago, BGamer18 said:

Ok thanks so i'm not crazy lol. The main thing that kind of confuses me is that this trailer seems to more fitted for a lore oriented quest rather than a trailer that is tied into an open world. I am aware of the fact that DE has said they are not showing off the new open world (for now) but never the less I am still confused about how this could possibly tie its self into an open world. This trailer seems as if it may be more directed towards the evolution of the operator and maybe just warframe lore in general. The reason why I say it may be at the least geared towards the evolution of operator is because of the description of the trailer on youtube. If you didn't notice it already the description says "Tenno, it’s time to grow up." which leads me to believe that The Duviri Paradox may not be an open world related thing but possibly either another prologue or quest of sorts. I believe that the Plains of Duviri (the name of the new open world) and The Duviri Paradox may be two separate things. I can't tell if they will be released at the same time but I have supported my claim above regardless.

I hadn't read the description when I made the first post, but it does do us that favor of reminding us about gameplay implications and I really curious about what's up with the tenno aging or not and there's a few different ways it could go.

Also, I really like this idea of this trailer being the start to a new open world (the plains of Duviri) and like @Illuminaut said, it would be cool if this plains place took place in the void and the reveal itself does seem like it would be a cinematic quest that leads into that and gives us our "here's what's going on" for getting started with that area and possibly (hopefully) tie it into what already exists. As well as giving us the possibility of even more time wizardry or time tomfoolery. Maybe even some time shenanigans if we're lucky! 

Regardless, I'm loving what you folks are bringing to the table and I really love this new puzzle DE has giving us on top of the mountain of goodies coming up and I'm so excited. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by (NSW)UltPumpkinPie
typo fix

[(NSW)UltPumpkinPie]

10 hours ago, Oreades said:

Hmm I just assumed that it was going to mean that we somehow created the Void or directly caused the accident on the Zariman that lead to us being Tenno in the first place. 

But the disjointed timeline whoozle is kinda more interesting. If that is the case it kinda makes me wish that they had gone with the Duviri Paradox first and then gone with The Old War instead of going with The New War. 

Cause now (again if that is the case and it well could be) if they go with The Old War at some point it's going to feel kinda samey to a point. 

 

Tho all things considered they NAILED the Sentient design for The New War ❤️

The idea of the tenno creating the Zariman accident is an interesting one. I've always thought it had something to do with the man in the wall but the mask that was paradox trailer  reminded me of him because he's called "the indifference" and then we saw the mask was on a Tenno so maybe we'll find out more about Wally and how he relates to us (maybe he's a different form of us?)

There is also some practically to how we think the releases are planned. I don't know if you watched their art panel but they show a lot of old and new concept art for the new war and talked alot about how long it took to make it into something that's a playable tileset. I don't know how the creative process works with DE and how they plan their story but it's possible that this influenced things with deciding which parts of the story to release and when.

As for the the old war new war thing, I'd like to point out that the logo changes between the two and while that may seem like a cool thing to do to show the return of the sentients, it's possible they might do something with the new war and the old war at the same time because of the juxtaposition. Maybe the 'update' isn't "the new war" so much as it is "the old/new war"

What I think is most likely think is going to happen is that the new war is going to be released and we are going to find out a lot about the old war through the new war that isn't going to make a lot of sense because of the Duviri Paradox and that gets release after to explain it and open us up to the new area 'the plains of duviri' 

Good good stuff all around

[Kaotyke]

10 hours ago, Aesthier said:

And here I thought it was handed out as an opportunity for meme creation.

 

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)UltPumpkinPie said:

As for the the old war new war thing, I'd like to point out that the logo changes between the two and while that may seem like a cool thing to do to show the return of the sentients, it's possible they might do something with the new war and the old war at the same time because of the juxtaposition. Maybe the 'update' isn't "the new war" so much as it is "the old/new war"

What I think is most likely think is going to happen is that the new war is going to be released and we are going to find out a lot about the old war through the new war that isn't going to make a lot of sense because of the Duviri Paradox and that gets release after to explain it and open us up to the new area 'the plains of duviri' 

Good good stuff all around

Hmmm for whatever reason I hadn't considered them folding the Old/New war into each other. But like you point out thematically speaking that could explain the txt transition in the marketing advertising for the content as a sorta silent nod to what's coming and an "OMG they'd been hinting at it the whole time and we just didn't know it" moment. I had kinda wondered if there was significance to the additional letters that rotate through the "Old" and "New" but I was always too lazy to try to figure out what if anything they could be. 

Pushing both the Old and New war at the same time would solve the feeling of "we've done this already" if they where to separate them into two self contained events.

 

[Mints]

I wouldn't be too quick to try to rationalize any part of the Void. The first thing anyone needs to remember about the Void is that it is a non-place composed of paradox. Its name is Nothingness, Emptiness, Non-Existence; and yet it is Something, Occupied, and Tangible. Alive/Dead, Past/Future, Good/Evil, etc. are all meaningless dichotomies in the Void. We could be seeing a past, present, or future that never was but could come to be. Maybe the opposite: The past, present, and future that is and will come to pass if we don't change something. The Void's chaotic nature precludes us from ever drawing logical conclusions and trying to do so is a one way road to madness.

What I have noticed: The Horseman's first charge may have been to establish the Operator's identity. That means its first reaction was not overt lethal aggression. This implies some kind of intelligence and ulterior motive other than violence. Whatever that ulterior motive is it quickly disappeared the moment that the Horseman figured out who the Operator is. Despite being of the Void the Operators are clearly not welcome in this place.

If I had to commit to a wild guess as to the nature of the Duviri Paradox it is this: This Void is the Underworld. If one is pulled into the Void they should be very dead, and yet we are not. Instead of being dead we are aged. But running through all this stuff in my head makes me wonder: If we woke up from the Second Dream then what was the First?

Edited July 7, 2019 by Mints

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

All I know is I hope they make it so you really feel unease in stepping out into that landscape...since I am really looking forward to Death Stranding's weird survival horror aspect...Having another landscape to jump to that hits that vibe won't bother me a bit..

 

The sad part though as excited as I am for it..I'm not... since I know I'm most likely facing another long batch of various syndicate farms to max out in order to get at whatever new boss fight awaits...

Edited July 7, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[LupoDWolf]

So, no one talks ho buttlerflies seen to be the only other thing in the place, the 'past' operator dissolves in butterflies, etc

[BGamer18]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

All I know is I hope they make it so you really feel unease in stepping out into that landscape...since I am really looking forward to Death Stranding's weird survival horror aspect...Having another landscape to jump to that hits that vibe won't bother me a bit..

@(PS4)FriendSharkey I know what you mean when your talking about the "unease". When I watched that trailer live I got chills from watching it. I really hope they can keep that same vibe for whatever is to come out of this in the future.

[KarvenSlash]

Im surprise no one   talk about the diviri parts , my friends and i  where talking about it and  it somehow close to  a other latin word that interestingly had the following  meaning's 

to have or keep from someone to owe something, to be under obligation to and for something to be bound, in duty bound to do something; "I ought", "I must", "I should"

Its funny but it does fit the theme of maybe us causing something to set the timeline in motion, as we owe our power tot he void demon what i love even more is the under obligation what  if  we are the one who causes the void demon to affect the adult  and  well cause everything that had to happen to happen effectively creating a Paradox.

 

As for the Dax because  if you look at is katana its very very much  the same as  dax one even is way of holding it is almost the same as when dax   was holding it toward us, but the whole skeletal and  how he is made  really make em Think of  Nidus deluxe for some reason its just a bit similar, Which funny enough nidus  mean's: 

a place where something originates, develops, or is located

which yet again fit the thematic but  yeah im just throwing ideas 

[BGamer18]

1 hour ago, LupoDWolf said:

So, no one talks ho buttlerflies seen to be the only other thing in the place, the 'past' operator dissolves in butterflies, etc

@LupoDWolf I saw that in the trailer but to be completely honest I have no clue what to actually make of it. The only idea I can think of is that it may be foreshadowing some kind of butterfly effect. The butterfly effect is  "the phenomenon whereby a minute localized change in a complex system can have large effects elsewhere.". I can personally see something like that working in this kind of setting that we have been presented with in the trailer especially since we do see our past self at some point in the trailer.

[BGamer18]

6 minutes ago, KarvenSlash said:

it somehow close to  a other latin word that interestingly had the following  meaning's 

to have or keep from someone to owe something, to be under obligation to and for something to be bound, in duty bound to do something; "I ought", "I must", "I should"

Its funny but it does fit the theme of maybe us causing something to set the timeline in motion, as we owe our power tot he void demon what i love even more is the under obligation what  if  we are the one who causes the void demon to affect the adult  and  well cause everything that had to happen to happen effectively creating a Paradox.

@KarvenSlash This is a great piece of speculation and oddly enough I can see how it would kind of fit into this story for some weird reason

[iLightning13]

It's probably just a different reality. Cephalon Cy says "tears across five dimensions". If they were implying it is time travel, it would say four (x, y, z, time) but as it's five it's probably something else. Remember that Quill Onnko has already confirmed the existence of multiple worlds in the Warframe universe.

Also, the Dax-bot looks completely different from current Orokin creations. They make fancily decorated, very solid things. Compared to that, the Dax even more ornate than the Orokin designs. That makes me think that the Orokin are still alive in this reality, meaning the Tenno didn't kill them.

Finally, our alternate reality Tenno wears a 'Duviri' mask that's in all the marketing. The Dax-bot is hostile to him. That makes me think that a portion of the Tenno still want to dismantle the Orokin Empire, and are fighting back under the name Duviri while the ones who still serve the Orokin call themselves Tenno.

That's just my interpretation. I would be surprised if they decided to do time travel, as we already know a lot of the events of the Old War. If they switched to a different reality, there would be loads of ways they could go with it and it would be less predictable from a story standpoint.

It may be a mixture of both as well. The alternate reality idea doesn't account for the word 'Paradox' in the title. Perhaps there's a time traveller who interferes, causing the Tenno to stay their hand against the Orokin so the Collapse doesn't happen. Maybe even Wally, as he hasn't had a huge effect on the plot as of yet.

[GrimDelta]

What if the man in the wall is actual us? AKA the older us.

When entering the void the time split..a part remained there and a part became the Tenno as we all know.

I dunno but i believe that we will finally know what is with the Man in the Wall. 

There is also the possibility that during the long sleep, the minds of tenno were stuck there.

 

[(PSN)ImTheOx]

The Tenno in the video is probably the Duviri leader. 

He used to be a Tenno, now he is the duviri guy that sits in that golden chair. 

[(XBOX)VEN3REUM]

I just wanted to talk a little about the older tenno not being able to use his abilities. It would be very cool if, when unable to escape a void storm in Railjack missions, the void pulled these two dimensions together; where the tenno had lost their ability to transfer to a Warframe, and ours.

This would be an interesting opportunity for a gameplay style many have been asking for. 

Upon arriving in this limbo we have no tools and no ability to defend ourselves. In my opinion, this creates a 'battle royal' feel where you must scrounge around and find random weapons from your inventory in the void pools. 

I think this would also give players a reason to collect and level as many weapons as possible to give yourself a greater chance of a pool having a weapon hidden in it. 

Your task is then to traverse the void plane ('plane' as in dimensional plane of existence) and make it to the crashed Zarimon TenZero to make it back to our current plane. 

I also just wanted to point out the parallel between the 5 schools we have and the 5 different void clouds we have to choose from when in 'hyperspace'. Perhaps this will give players a reason to gain standing in all focus trees as we won't know which cloud is associated with which tree. And upon entering a cloud you only have the abilities of that tree (if any) to work with while looking for weapons to defend yourself. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by (XB1)VEN3REUM

[LupoDWolf]

5 hours ago, iLightning13 said:

I Remember that Quill Onnko has already confirmed the existence of multiple worlds in the Warframe universe.

 

I think this is a form of referencing the loose canon with all players being the main character so far

Edited July 7, 2019 by LupoDWolf