[SPOILERS] [SPECULATION] Duviri Paradox

[Curtharv]

Duviri Paradox trailer dropped in TennoLive and it was a massive reveal, this should be alot of new content for us to explore eventually but,
what got me thinking the most is the adult version of the operator that appears in it.
I went ahead and re-read the Zariman Ten Zero related lore on the wiki until i came across this line on the Ember Prime codex entry

Quote

 

The old woman gestured for the officer to take Kaleen away. The meeting was over. When Kaleen reached the door she twisted out of his grip and shot back, 'Why would you do that? Why did you put children on a military ship?'

'We didn't. That would violate procedure.'

 

That means that Zariman Ten Zero shouldn't have had any children on it. But if that was the case, where did all the children all come from?
Looking at Duviri Paradox trailer its quite obvious that an adult version of our operators exists somewhere or in some shape or form.
In that case, what if all the children of Zariman Ten Zero are actually the missing crew.

But that leaves a hole in the story as so far the story from the children's side is that the adults started going crazy.
But if we look at it from the crew's side random people would become children at random losing their memories of what they once were.
Its quite obvious that they would have tried all they could to try and do something about it getting more and more desperate as more people were affected, resulting in appearing as crazed in front of the children and in the end even becoming so.

So moving on, what would the man in the wall be? Well, one idea I have is that he is the adult, Every Tenno has their own "Man in the wall" and Rell's was unique due to his aggressiveness, its possible he was killed or consumed or even possessed as in the trailer the adult was clearly in peril until our operator assisted him.

[iLightning13]

1 hour ago, Curtharv said:

its quite obvious that an adult version of our operators exists

My guess is simply an alternate reality. The first name for the expansion was 'Planes of Duviri', as opposed to a Plain, like the Eidolon Plains.

That'd imply it's in a different plane of reality. One where the Orokin were never destroyed, perhaps. Maybe some of the Tenno even served them under this new regime, with the adult version of ourselves being one who turned away from the empire - a Duviri, maybe. The Dax in the trailer was a full robot. That makes me think that the Orokin went full Skynet and completely cyberised themselves - OR the Sentients did it for them (though the Dax looks more like Orokin tech than Sentient tech).

2 hours ago, Curtharv said:

In that case, what if all the children of Zariman Ten Zero are actually the missing crew.

As for the plot twist with the Zariman children being the crew, I think it'd be a cool twist but I don't really expect it. I think that the incident was simply orchestrated by Ballas or some other figure, who wanted to investigate the nature of the Void. Also, it'd feel a lot like a retcon if we completely mis-remembered our father talking to us on the Ten Zero: "There's something out there, kiddo."

2 hours ago, Curtharv said:

So moving on, what would the man in the wall be?

I think that 'The Man in the Wall' is simply the personification of the Void. The Void, as we know it, is the space between realities; which is why we can likely transfer our consciousness across to the Duviri Plane to our old selves. A bit like walls, if you would. The Man is likely just the being that either moves through that space; or is that space. Before we laid Rell to rest, he was preventing the Man from appearing to all the other Tenno. Afterwards, he began to appear. Because of that, I don't think we all have our own, individual Wally. Because Tenno effectively draw Void energy through them to not age and fight etc, I think that doing so allows Wally to enter us - either as the Void or an entity moving through/controlling it; though Rell was there to act like a filter for it when he was alive; taking it all on for himself.

[Loza03]

On ‎2019‎-‎07‎-‎07 at 9:09 AM, Curtharv said:

That means that Zariman Ten Zero shouldn't have had any children on it. But if that was the case, where did all the children all come from?
Looking at Duviri Paradox trailer its quite obvious that an adult version of our operators exists somewhere or in some shape or form.
In that case, what if all the children of Zariman Ten Zero are actually the missing crew.

There's two ways to look at that.

We wouldn't put children on a military ship, where there were no children on the ship.

or they wouldn't put children on a military ship. The Zariman 10-0 was a Colonisation project, held in secret, and the people sent to investigate were told it was a military vessel to cover up the mistake early. 

[(XBOX)UpgradeAcorn989]

On 2019-07-09 at 7:17 AM, Loza03 said:

or they wouldn't put children on a military ship. The Zariman 10-0 was a Colonisation project, held in secret, and the people sent to investigate were told it was a military vessel to cover up the mistake early. 

well that certainly put a new perspective on the situation

[Lost_Cartographer]

On 2019-07-11 at 2:14 PM, (XB1)UpgradeAcorn989 said:

well that certainly put a new perspective on the situation

But remember there's no mention of the Zariman 10-0 being a colonization ship.  That's fanon that spread far and wide and most people keep taking it as fact.  We KNOW it's a military ship that was to make an experimental jump from Saturn to the "outer gates," and until someone comes forth with proof it was ever otherwise, we have to assume it was only ever a military ship running an experiment on non-rail FTL travel.

What we do know are that the Tenno remember mind-warped, fera; adults, but Kaleen found them aboard the Zariman once it returned to normal space years later with no trace of the adults having ever been on board.

It stands to reason that the void ripped the ship into two identical copies once it sent one half - the half with the children on board - back to normal space.  WHERE the children then come from is a mystery.

Given that the Tenno are literally hopping in and out of host bodies, I've got reason to believe the adults losing their minds and turning animalistic and the birth of the child-like Tenno are directly linked.  Also supporting the theory - Rhino's codex, which features a feral proto-Rhino up until a Tenno transfers into the body and takes control.  They never necessarily needed the transference chair to use transference.

[Loza03]

21 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

But remember there's no mention of the Zariman 10-0 being a colonization ship.  That's fanon that spread far and wide and most people keep taking it as fact.  We KNOW it's a military ship that was to make an experimental jump from Saturn to the "outer gates," and until someone comes forth with proof it was ever otherwise, we have to assume it was only ever a military ship running an experiment on non-rail FTL travel.

What we do know are that the Tenno remember mind-warped, fera; adults, but Kaleen found them aboard the Zariman once it returned to normal space years later with no trace of the adults having ever been on board.

It stands to reason that the void ripped the ship into two identical copies once it sent one half - the half with the children on board - back to normal space.  WHERE the children then come from is a mystery.

Given that the Tenno are literally hopping in and out of host bodies, I've got reason to believe the adults losing their minds and turning animalistic and the birth of the child-like Tenno are directly linked.  Also supporting the theory - Rhino's codex, which features a feral proto-Rhino up until a Tenno transfers into the body and takes control.  They never necessarily needed the transference chair to use transference.

There are two problems with this: the first is that the Tenno have memories of not just being on the Zariman, but specifically being schooled on the Zariman, about Tau, which is unlikely to happen if they were military adults, especially if they weren't going to Tau. From the Second Dream:

Quote

Operator: A jumble of words, numbers... I must have known everything about Tau. Our teacher loved when I corrected her.

It is highly unlikely that they would possess memories of events that wouldn't happen to military adults.

 

The second is the Sentients. The Sentients were terraformers heading to Tau, and were in fact, building a Rail for the Orokin to get there - so no non-rail FTL experiment.

From the Detron Crewmen Synthesis imprint:

Quote

I tried to catch my breath and speak, “The crossing to the Tau system is perilous. Adaptation and replication are the only way a terraforming journey can be made. They will build an interstellar rail as they travel, they will adapt to the host planet and prepare it for our arrival. They will save you.”

There's also, of course, Natah's dialogue about the roles her mother and Hunhow played, being for construction and terraforming. They were Von Neumann terraforming machines, that gained Sentience and turned on their creators, becoming a species (albeit an inorganic one) in their own right.

 

With this in mind, there is multiple pieces of evidence that the Orokin were moving to terraform Tau and colonise it, and that the Zariman was going to Tau. From that evidence, it's perfectly reasonably to conclude that it was a colonisation ship.  As I previously pointed out, it's possible this was kept a secret, and the military ship element is just a façade, especially since it's never brought up again, IIRC.

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Loza03

[Lost_Cartographer]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

There are two problems with this: the first is that the Tenno have memories of not just being on the Zariman, but specifically being schooled on the Zariman, about Tau, which is unlikely to happen if they were military adults, especially if they weren't going to Tau. From the Second Dream:

It is highly unlikely that they would possess memories of events that wouldn't happen to military adults.

Your mistake right here is assuming all memories are accurate and were from time spent aboard the Zariman.  That there was no fabrication of memories or misleading the Tenno's hazy memory to believe one thing over another.  Certainly, the Lotus wasn't there to take account of events upon the Zariman's return, yet she is filling in the blanks for us.  Speaking of the Lotus, even in that moment in time while speaking with us at the end of the second dream, was still just fulfilling her programming set by Ballas.  Hence her sudden abandonment of the Tenno upon his revealing himself, and her little speech while marching to murder the ropalolyst.  Until proven in the Duviri Paradox (if it ever is) there is no mention of it being a colony ship, and it would be ridiculous to send a colony ship on a maiden voyage by a means never tested to begin with.  I know the Orokin did not value human life at all, but they weren't recklessly stupid either, and there's no logic in keeping a colony ship making the first trip to the Tau system classified intel regardless.  That's the kind of publicity that would cast the Orokin in a positive light and would be a historical achievement for humanity as a whole.

But sure, the Zariman 10-0 was a black-ops colony vessel making an interstellar trip using technology never before live tested in the field.  That makes total sense.

[Loza03]

14 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Your mistake right here is assuming all memories are accurate and were from time spent aboard the Zariman.  That there was no fabrication of memories or misleading the Tenno's hazy memory to believe one thing over another. 

Alone, yes, this wouldn't be good enough evidence. But with the knowledge that the Sentients were terraforming Tau explicitly for colonisation? Well, those two bits of information match up, better than the older fragment that's also of suspect accuracy. Specifically considering the Orokin who, as I pointed out, made a statement that can just as easily be taken as 'it wasn't a military ship'. That's two points in favour and only a very shakey one against.

17 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Certainly, the Lotus wasn't there to take account of events upon the Zariman's return, yet she is filling in the blanks for us.

Everything Lotus says was already given in the flashbacks or other sources - in other words, things that are perfectly reasonable for her to know considering her age. Those being that Tenno have superpowers, that the Zariman had a void-jump accident and was lost for years, that Margulis saved them (since Lotus was involved in the Tenno project after the fact, this is definitely, this is likely something she'd find out even without the espionage), that Margulis developed Transference to give the Tenno surrogate bodies and that the Tenno served the Orokin.

By contrast, we are the ones providing details nobody but us should know. What we did aboard the Zariman, our feelings about ourselves, about Margulis and why our Tenno is individually motivated to fight. We are the ones filling in the blanks, not Lotus.

25 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Speaking of the Lotus, even in that moment in time while speaking with us at the end of the second dream, was still just fulfilling her programming set by Ballas.  Hence her sudden abandonment of the Tenno upon his revealing himself, and her little speech while marching to murder the ropalolyst. 

If Ballas set Lotus's programming, how come he was so surprised in Chimera that she turned from 'Margulis 2.0' to 'Natah' after supposedly removing it? Surely, if he was involved in that project, he'd be more aware than most that she was under a reprogrammed state. Yet he explicitly says that he saw 'a lover' in Lotus - that he saw Margulis in her, and genuinely considered Lotus a possible replacement. If he was aware that it was the reprogramming doing that - and he would be even without being the one to do the hacking, he's one of the Council of Seven as shown again by the Detron Crewman imprint as well as being a conspirator in the plot - and he wanted to keep Margulis, why would he remove the reprogramming?

Unless there was no reprogramming, at least by the Orokin. That instead the Sentients have convinced the Lotus, through direct manipulation or through good-old-fashioned gaslighting and other forms of abuse, that before she was brainwashed, and now she's free. If she's brainwashed into thinking she was brainwashed before, that would have the same result - her telling us that she was reprogrammed but now she's not.

30 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Until proven in the Duviri Paradox (if it ever is) there is no mention of it being a colony ship, and it would be ridiculous to send a colony ship on a maiden voyage by a means never tested to begin with.  I know the Orokin did not value human life at all, but they weren't recklessly stupid either

The Sentients were building a Solar Rail on the way. So, yes, the means were tested, at least to the standards the Orokin would care about. All the others work, why should this one be any different? That's most likely how they thought.

31 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

and there's no logic in keeping a colony ship making the first trip to the Tau system classified intel regardless.  That's the kind of publicity that would cast the Orokin in a positive light and would be a historical achievement for humanity as a whole.

Simple - the means to get to Tau was easily accessible since it was using a solar rail, the primary system used by most space-faring people in the Empire. It's not like a rocket trip today where everyone knows you need to be highly trained - it's like if the governments of the world just announced there was a completely free new country full of bountiful resources, clean air and lots of jobs, that you could access this wonderland by hopping in your car and driving there. There would be a mass exodus, and obviously that would lead to Anarchy in the new system since there was no Orokin infrastructure. The rebels that the Orokin engineered for their amusement could become a legitimate threat if they got a foothold in a system with no Orokin and a whole solar system's worth of fresh resources, and even then, it is more difficult to establish Orokin control in a system where everyone's already staked their claim.

Plus, of course, even if they were mostly sure it was safe, enough to send a colony ship, it might still fail, or the Colonists might revolt in a similar manner to above, which would spoil the infallibility of the Orokin gods - making them 'bleed'. So they kept it hush-hush, until presumably there was fresh Orokin infrastructure to move into in the new civilisation.

[BloodRavenCap]

I like and hate at the same time the way Warframe's story is presented. Yeah, it's very intriguing unravelling everything as it comes along, but then you start to see those little cracks and holes - and you don't know were they left there intentionally, so developers could answer some of the questions later by presenting answers as a SURPRISE TWIST, or it's just the result of cutting corners in the story department, so that's why plot feels so disjointed and strange. I remember Steve saying that he wanted to rework story, so it would be more tight and would progress more naturally, with less blanks between quests, but still, we'll see what 'new player experience' will bring us.

I really like your idea that Operators were adults before, it would be more of a soft retcon, because that way more people would stay satisfied. I, personally, don't like children Operators at all and would prefer them to grow between the quests. Still, one thing really bothered me for a long time - what really was Zariman 10-0. As it was discussed, we don't know for sure, was it a military or a colonisation ship. And that bothers me more than it should.

Would love if one day we would see all the details ourselves in gameplay, not just from snippets of texts.

Also, I've seen this fan chronology one time, it said that Orokin were planning on executing Tenno after their victory over Sentients. I thought everyone started hating Tenno after they killed the Orokin on that parade?

[GF-110]

Have a theory but didn't believe it was enough to start a whole new thread when a Duviri Paradox thread already exists.

I was having a discussion with my wife about Nora Night. Why does she have information about everything that goes on in the galaxy? Why the special interest to base her entire broadcast to Tenno 'Dreamers'? Why can no one seem to track down the origin of her broadcasts?

What if the Nightwave Broadcasts were coming from the Zariman 10-0 out in the void? And what if Nora was just a grown up Operator telling stories of things that had already happened?

Just a thought I believed worth sharing

[Loza03]

22 minutes ago, GF-110 said:

Have a theory but didn't believe it was enough to start a whole new thread when a Duviri Paradox thread already exists.

I was having a discussion with my wife about Nora Night. Why does she have information about everything that goes on in the galaxy? Why the special interest to base her entire broadcast to Tenno 'Dreamers'? Why can no one seem to track down the origin of her broadcasts?

What if the Nightwave Broadcasts were coming from the Zariman 10-0 out in the void? And what if Nora was just a grown up Operator telling stories of things that had already happened?

Just a thought I believed worth sharing

That... actually makes some degree of sense...

We don't know much about Nora that's for sure, but one of the few things we do is that she's not big on romance. And that the only person she loved had two known traits. First: "Face of an angel, morals of a chainsaw." We might not be that pretty out-of-game, but in universe Tenno aren't that bad looking - plus, 'angel' is a descriptor used with our Tenno by their mother. And of course - we sure know a lot about chainsaw morals.

The other is "But damn he looked good in a suit." This line, whilst funny, has always stuck out to me... the Warframe universe has suits? But the Tenno do wear a sort of suit - transference suits.

 

This is heavily on the 'crazy' end of the theory crafting, but not far enough to be impossible. Stranger things have happened in fiction - one of Steven Universe's twists springs to mind.