Void Trace: Let us craft it from trash relics

[Mad5cout]

6 year vet, MR27 here.  There is nothing I hate more than farming void trace to radiant relics for new prime parts.  The RNG is so low on the parts that I always run out even if I am maxed at like 1400 trace when the new gear drops.  Then I get to farm trace for hours.  This is literally the part of the game that I hate the most because the drop rate is so friggen low you have to run at least 5-6 relics just to unlock the one you actually need.  Let's say it takes an average of 3 runs (sometimes it takes one, sometimes eight) to get each part.  That is an average of 15 trash relic runs just to get ONE part.  On average, 11-12 parts drop every prime release, translating to on average 165 trash relic runs to get enough trace to unlock them all. Even if you did ALL of those in 3 min capture runs, that is upwards of 8 hours of real life time running trash relics just to get enough trace to unlock all the parts of a single prime release.

This is a horrible, horrible system.  It makes me want to stop playing the game.

SUGGESTION:  Let us trade/crush/craft trash relics into trace.  The quality of the relic dictates how much you get. 

Then I would actually have a purpose for those 98473509837489 rad relics I have from grind ESO for focus (incidentally, grinding focus is my second most hated part of the game but I will save that for another thread).

[Voltage]

It's already easy enough to get Prime items that you want. I don't think we need to make traces even easier to get.

[Avienas]

49 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It's already easy enough to get Prime items that you want. I don't think we need to make traces even easier to get.

Lets counter that logic with a list of things, especially since you did not give the WHY explanation on why its easy enough to get primes ya want.

1. You have to obtain the specific relic which usually its thanks to bounties that greatly mitigate playing with a 8~12% chance of a specific relic on a roughly 5 minute farm time. Still usually end up with bounty phases Always give only bronze on stage 1 and stages 2~all but the last stage usually tends to be 24~32% chance and last stage the relic tends to be 50% chance, still playing the dice but then your dealing with the reset time every hour-ish or so shuffling the choices, but thats just a minor nuance, especially when a single bounty session in the high level can last as long as 14 minutes as opposed to a 20~25 minute endless mission of 4 to 5 rounds).

Mini-TL;DR; to point 1- Even with easier methods present, your still playing with an extra dice roll just to get the prep work started before you can actually start the actual chase of a specific part.

 

2. 2nd and 3rd type upgraded relics might as well not exist so its either 0 or 100 traces in most scenarios even if the part a person wants is a silver tier one. If you do not run a extended endless mission your only getting a random amount of say 7~13 traces on say a capture or single round endless mission with no real controllable variance besides using a higher tier relic (which kind of defeats the purpose of farming for traces specifically) OR if people flock to your relic which despite it now giving an extra 5 traces per person who votes on yours, your going to need to either have people hungry for forma, hungry for X part or just hungry for rares to make people decide to vote on yours. Even then your only looking at roughly 22~38 traces in the best case scenario for that.

 

3. I could literally run a 12 round excavation fissure and get only roughly 500~600 traces with a smeeta and resource booster(plus of course need a full pre-made team who does not ditch out after 1 or 3 rounds). Some might get lucky and have smeetas proc like a madman with double up resource booster procs, but that is a highly unstable variable to play with. Honestly i would just declare that the gain rate would have to scale up harder cause if a resource booster implies around 14~26 before any bonus scale up is applied. Then the base amount i would of got would of valued around 148~312 traces after resource booster is applied, excluding other effects. It would be nicer if scale up was stronger as you went deeper in waves, especially if say defense targets do not get to scale up in durability also, plus again, most people barely even want to go that long so it could easily take 9 to 14 runs with random players just to get close to enough traces to radiant one relic without a resource booster present. PLUS your still rolling on a rather low chance even after the relic is radiant up to shift the odds a bit more towards the gold part.

 

4. You still need to rely on getting a mob of people every time you want to crack a relic which means between 4 people you need, each with 4 radiants, just for you all to get the best chance of getting that gold mc`guffin item you want or silver in some regard. Which will most likely end up with ATLEAST one of them leaving every round and then you have to fetch a new one. Cant simply have one peace out and you and the rest of the team can keep rolling with your mass stockpile of X relic and NOT care about the fact the odds of rolling that rare one went down with one less person rolling their own dice to hit that lucky % chance window.

 

TL;DR: Void key system may of had faults but you did not have to jump thru fetching X relic, fetch X amount of traces then fetch X amount of people to do a X ritual and pray the part comeths after the ritual is over with, with usually getting X new members to continue yer cult-level of repeating the ritual till you need to go back to steps 1 and/or 2 to continue either on a new relic or the same one. Overall, it would be nice if the system was more favorable to less then 4 man groups or standalone farmers who have plenty of time on hand, had trace gain scale better with deeper waves OR make trace gain more then just thru running fissures(seriously melting extra relics for traces would be the best and quickest way to resolve this, long as they make it a sizable amount of say 20 traces per melt instead of just 3 or 5, even 15 would might be fine.) and maybe have higher MR players get maybe a extra bonus to trace gain if we want to get silly, but most importantly, let a player not have to overly rely on a full group all the time.

P.S. before you say one can easily still farm alone, its not the issue that its impossible to farm alone, its the fact a much better way exists(multiple choices to pick depending on how many players are in your squad aka why ducat farming basically is mandatory to do in public or with a premade in that regard) aka your shooting yourself in the foot if you do it solo(which was not as much of a concern since you just got whatever popped for you in the rotation wrap up, back with the void key system aka you are only dealing with 1 standalone roll, instead of multiple to prepare till you actually roll for the chance of obtaining the specific item).

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Avienas
Small tidy up plus pointing out specific parts.

[Mad5cout]

You would be wrong.

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, Mad5cout said:

SUGGESTION:  Let us trade/crush/craft trash relics into trace.  The quality of the relic dictates how much you get. 

Traces are given to you for spending time cracking the Relics. Relics you spent time farming for, or trading for. None of those suggestions waste your time and are therefore not worth giving you a reward for the time spent.

 

1 hour ago, Mad5cout said:

The RNG is so low on the parts that I always run out even if I am maxed at like 1400 trace when the new gear drops.

If this was easy to hoard a ton of traces and instantly Rad a bunch of Relics from the new PA, the incentive to get the PA goes down.

Edited July 8, 2019 by peterc3

[Mad5cout]

23 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Traces are given to you for spending time cracking the Relics. Relics you spent time farming for, or trading for. None of those suggestions waste your time and are therefore not worth giving you a reward for the time spent.

 

If this was easy to hoard a ton of traces and instantly Rad a bunch of Relics from the new PA, the incentive to get the PA goes down.

Peter I know you have been around forever but 90% of your posting is glancing at a post, reading completely past its meaning, and the crapping all over the idea with absolutely meaningless information.

I am well aware that the CURRENT system is getting traces from cracking relics.  My precise point is that this system sucks and is absolutely a waste of time because of the low payout for the time it takes to crack one.  That is the ever loving point of my post and you somehow feel that redescribing the current S#&$ty system that I just referred to is somehow a valid response to that criticism.  It is quite telling that anyone who has been playing for a while has well over 200 relics just sitting in their inventory.  The balance is off.  Even if they do keep the system, they trace drops need to be increase - literally doubled at a bare minimum.

I am MR 27.  I came into this most recent Prime drop with 1400 trace - currently the maximum a player can horde for a prime release.  I burned through all of it running the new relics in a day and a half and I am still missing 4 pieces, all of which require radiant relics to effectively get.  That is about half of the parts that came out that you need a radiant relic to obtain.

The incentive to buy the Prime Access should be the platinum, exclusive skins/bling, and not farming.  It shouldn't be an excuse to make those of us who do choose to farm have to suffer a horrible system.  Otherwise, Warframe turns into a type of "pay to win" game.  If this type of market system were implemented in a competitive game, the entire steam community would be crapping all over it in the reviews.

Bottom line: Just because you drank the cool-aid and have extremely low expectations does not mean that the rest of us should.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Mad5cout

[GuiJay]

14 minutes ago, Mad5cout said:

I burned through all of it running the new relics in a day and a half and I am still missing 4 pieces, all of which require radiant relics to effectively get.

 

15 minutes ago, Mad5cout said:

The incentive to buy the Prime Access should be the platinum, exclusive skins/bling, and not farming.  It shouldn't be an excuse to make those of us who do choose to farm have to suffer a horrible system.

There is a narrow line to walk between making the farm too easy without enough incentive and too hard with too much punishment. This line falls in different places for different people and will never make everyone happy. That being said I'm getting a vibe of annoyance from your post that you were not able to get all of the new content within a day or two of its release.

The only comparison we can make of the current system is the old void key system where you had to play the drop table with the minuscule drop chances. I would actually need someone with a strong understanding of statistics here to confirm, but I think that a 10% chance (to get the relic) followed by another 10% (to get the rare item) is overall a better chance than a single 2-3% drop.

that being said, I do support, on principle, the idea of being able to generate void traces from relics. However, I would make this a possible reward from missions instead of just being able to "sell" an un-used relic in your orbiter; make void traces an alternative to the drop from a relic so you can choose to either get traces or the relic's reward. If you only get commons, get traces. If you get an uncommon or rare, you can choose that instead.

[Avienas]

49 minutes ago, GuiJay said:

 

There is a narrow line to walk between making the farm too easy without enough incentive and too hard with too much punishment. This line falls in different places for different people and will never make everyone happy. That being said I'm getting a vibe of annoyance from your post that you were not able to get all of the new content within a day or two of its release.

The only comparison we can make of the current system is the old void key system where you had to play the drop table with the minuscule drop chances. I would actually need someone with a strong understanding of statistics here to confirm, but I think that a 10% chance (to get the relic) followed by another 10% (to get the rare item) is overall a better chance than a single 2-3% drop.

that being said, I do support, on principle, the idea of being able to generate void traces from relics. However, I would make this a possible reward from missions instead of just being able to "sell" an un-used relic in your orbiter; make void traces an alternative to the drop from a relic so you can choose to either get traces or the relic's reward. If you only get commons, get traces. If you get an uncommon or rare, you can choose that instead.

Honestly i am not a fan of doing the forum version of the B-slap, but honestly there is a difference between rambling that each player will have a different happy line and just bloody having the system be ENJOYABLE, satisfactory system for the majority of players with only maybe the nitpicking absurd lazies who rather the gold parts be given to them for free as soon as they start playing the game that would likely still be whining like giant babies, without it turning into a tedious mess after the first few tries towards shiny things. I can list multiple times on VARIOUS previous prime releases as early as Valkyr prime if i want to specify when i got really active into new prime hunting, to where i could state how much of a decline the value of prime sets have fell into a mess where people either have to suffer thru a grind to prepare just to make the 2nd grind less painful, suffer a grind to obtain the shinies without spending plat to obtain it but likely take longer then the mass prep work one or suffer thru a grind to prepare a premium of plat likely thru market chat to get their hands on the prime set then having to wait an extra one or few weeks to hope for the circulation value to drop enough to still then spend a decent amount of plat to earn because WTSers will likely always try to jack up the value on you if you aren`t lucky enough to get a hit from your wtbs where someone will haggle with you to get it to a FAIR price. 

Where the farm was a great deal frustrating after every new prime came up and i prepared traces in advance and slowly turned to mass piling syndicate points for relic packs. First time i went full in was with equinox prime with easily many dozens of syndicate medallions to get what might as well of been around 30~50 extra relic packs on top of the 3 syndicates i had max points out and was sitting at around MR26 at the time. Void key system made me feel i was rewarded for my perseverance on dealing with Void/Derelict maps which back then in the MUCH earlier days, felt like the challenge and i could cry in joy as i got my hands on Loki prime as my first ever prime.

 

Void key system had its faults but at least you werent bouncing from a farming map to get X relic, to a premade group to farm X traces to then get another premade group to 4 sword heroic epic crack a relic and hope the egg you broke open had a golden, high quality yolk inside instead of a plain one. Then rinse and repeat it again till you got everything you wanted.

Plus honestly how void relics are opened i feel like needs to be tidied up due to how many times i have run into players like hosts force quitting the game during a relic opening transition, likely cause they were being too slow to pick up reactants despite everyone else taking an extra 2~3 minutes of waiting on them or they did not see a gold goodie so they do not want to `burn` the relic they got (if one can actually save the relic by quitting the game during the part selection phase).

Plus there is the fact some game modes which do not mesh well with fissures (excavation in public namely cause there is always that one low MR player who rushes excavators like a idiot OR mobile defense taking a good deal longer to get done then capture/exterminate/sabotage mission types, but the fissure rotation did not have any other non-endless mission types up, only 3 or 4 mobile defense fissures somehow). I would actually do a comparison to the old alert system to fissures now, where it can be semi-annoying if one wants to do X mission type on X planet with X tier of relics because its the more effective way to say ducat farm or what not.

But seriously in all honesty can all the fissures just be moved back to the void so we can keep perpetual X mission types up, Corrupted Vor can get to enjoy Tenno Skoom company again likely how he did back in the old void key system and we can actually enjoy the challenge of void enemies(plus have all enemies in those mission types drop reactants by default) instead of having to have things like wait on enemies to get corrupted to pick up reactants, instead of getting ticked at another idiotic saryn, map blasting enemies in endless missions before they can flip to that state that can drop reactants?

 

P.S. regulating it to converting relics you crack open immediately into traces would not work and would just be sacrificing the relic to likely gain a small amount of traces unless the amount for hitting that 10th reactant and/or converting that relic is a sizable amount. Because converting 11~12 relics in a row, (where once again, with a resource booster, and a smeeta, and a full premade group, i achieved 500~600 traces roughly on average) would have to end up more then just get bonus traces based on X part and Y refinement then whatever traces you would get by default for hitting that 10th reactant, especially since most people are purposely chasing after gold parts, not trace stock, a radiant relic would have to end up paying out more then 100 traces to even out or your basically sacrificing a relic and 100 traces for even LESS traces, AKA its more tempting to just pick up the bronze/silver part OR the forma BP so you got something instead of leftover dust on your crazy alchemic attempt to create gold out of a fossilized egg.

PLUS likely one of the other reasons why people want to be able to trash relics for something USEFUL is because of how much junk relic stock that has already piled up and will likely pile up still casually, Very sure people would want the ability to go to the recycling center and get some money out of recycling, not spend the same amount of time to open the relics for ducats, just to chase stock for hopefully better odds on more crack open attempts. You would literally just be extending the RNG-sus layers of grind then actually doing any approach towards making improvements at all really.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Avienas

[Mad5cout]

Folks this is pretty simple.  All I am asking for is for the relics to have a parallel system to converting mods to Endo.  This system already is in the game for mods and it works great.  There is no reason relics shouldn't be the same or similar.  I wouldn't even care if the transfer rate were literally 1:1 per intact relic and scaling up to something like 5-6 for a radiant one.  I am not asking to never farm trace again. I am asking for there to some semblance of common sense to the system.

[Mad5cout]

21 hours ago, GuiJay said:

 

There is a narrow line to walk between making the farm too easy without enough incentive and too hard with too much punishment. This line falls in different places for different people and will never make everyone happy. That being said I'm getting a vibe of annoyance from your post that you were not able to get all of the new content within a day or two of its release.

The only comparison we can make of the current system is the old void key system where you had to play the drop table with the minuscule drop chances. I would actually need someone with a strong understanding of statistics here to confirm, but I think that a 10% chance (to get the relic) followed by another 10% (to get the rare item) is overall a better chance than a single 2-3% drop.

that being said, I do support, on principle, the idea of being able to generate void traces from relics. However, I would make this a possible reward from missions instead of just being able to "sell" an un-used relic in your orbiter; make void traces an alternative to the drop from a relic so you can choose to either get traces or the relic's reward. If you only get commons, get traces. If you get an uncommon or rare, you can choose that instead.

I am not asking to get the parts faster.  I am asking for my trace to either last longer or to not take twice as long to farm simply so I can farm the thing I actually want.

In other words, I am sick of the Disneyland farming system.  You know, where you wait in line just to wait line just to wait in line?  It takes about two times as long to farm the relics to unlock a prime than it does to actually farm the relic itself and it takes about four times as long just to farm the trace to radiant that relic to get what you need.

The economy of the whole system is out of whack.  And the result of this imbalance is having 938427590834287590847590 relics in your inventory that not only will you never use but you could never actually get through because of the disproportional drop rates.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Mad5cout

[Avienas]

2 hours ago, Mad5cout said:

In other words, I am sick of the Disneyland farming system.  You know, where you wait in line just to waiting line just to wait in line?  It takes about two times as long to farm the relics to unlock a prime than it does to actually farm the relic itself and it takes about four times as long just to farm the trace to radiant that relic to get what you need.

Well described good sir, basically taking longer to get to the point where you can start to GET ON WITH IT, for the work to actually get the prime part itself.

[Ericlpeterson1369]

Not everyone has hours per day to do the farming required for traces. I have been playing since the march 2014 and the game has come a long way. After many MANY missions I have relics i never really use. I dont want any of the parts from them so they go to waste. "Melting" spare relics to gain traces is not unreasonable. The game is about the grind, but there is a point where the grind becomes absurd and unrealistic. Looking at you sibear (30k cryotic? rediculous.) i farmed for oxium to make zephyr when zephyr cost 600-800 per part to make and drop of oxium, with boosters, came to 1-3 oxium per pickup, and drops 30% or 45% of the time a oxium osprey is taken down. So the relics for void traces is a fair argument, given the fact they majorly boosted the drop rate, and pickup rate, of oxium and lower the requirements to build zephyr. dont let this game turn into the starwars battlefront grind. cause thats what its turning into.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Ericlpeterson1369
new thoughts added

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

Right now you can sell those "trash" relics 1-2p each.  Save up and buy new prime sets or parts. Or you can open the "trash" relics and sell items 5-10p+. And then buy new prime sets or parts. Not really seeing the need to "crush" relics for traces to grind new prime items. Why not argue for a higher trace limit? ?

Same time,  I know most players want immediate results or they want to horde items to sell at high prices during a new prime release. Hmm, maybe that's why there is a trace limit...

[Hobie-wan]

Indeed. Even if you're cracking whatever relics while collecting traces, between that and non fissure missions where you get them you're still piling up relics a lot faster than you can use them. I have hundreds of relics I'll never be able to use including tons of vaulted ones. If I have the prime stuff in them already and I have no desire to sit in trade chat (or post somewhere) to trade them away, they just clutter my relic list when I'm looking for ones I actually want to crack. If I'm on an endless mission it makes picking one slower. Yes there's search, but still.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Jeez, I was about to start the same topic right now. 

Bump, whatever OP says.

 

I have around 1k+ relics that I will never open even if I won't upgrade them. And they keep coming. I'd rather dissolve most of them for traces and play relic missions much more often.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Scar.brother.help.me

[Nitro747]

Just imagine if 100 void traces were among the rewards of the Lua Disruption mission instead of the totally unnecessary, expensive to craft "Lua Lens"? 😮