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Excal Umbra and Excal Prime


Krogothian
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With the new war coming up Excal Umbra can be seen as a direct upgrade to Excal Prime and in this case, it'd be nice to add an Excal Prime skin option to Umbra so that I can still be Excal Prime while being able to howl at sentients.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Or alternatively, just use Excal P with Paracesis.

Except that's also still a downgrade, not only will that cause Excal to not benefit from his passive but prime would still be missing a total of 5 different polarities for sentient fighting and would be less effective at removing the resistance. I'm simply discussing cosmetics because factually, umbra is better than Prime in several ways. I'm not asking for Excal prime to be buffed to be stronger than Umbra, I'm simply asking to show a skin of what I purchased.

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9 minutes ago, Krogothian said:

Except that's also still a downgrade, not only will that cause Excal to not benefit from his passive but prime would still be missing a total of 5 different polarities for sentient fighting and would be less effective at removing the resistance. I'm simply discussing cosmetics because factually, umbra is better than Prime in several ways. I'm not asking for Excal prime to be buffed to be stronger than Umbra, I'm simply asking to show a skin of what I purchased.

Again, use Prime if you want to look like Prime.

Search results show people asking for this for over a year. DE has said nothing on it. If you want to look like Excal Prime, then just use him.

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I understand you, its the same when somoene tells me to use regular excal if i dont like umbras scarf/orokin stuff. I support that excal prime skin should be usable on excal umbra but without the umbral details cause thats too much oroking stuff, or just upgrade prime to be same as umbra in stats, yes the second ability will still be radial blind instead of howl but the stats what matter.

I acctualy looked at the wiki

Edited by AwkwardLazarow
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Just now, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Again, use Prime if you want to look like Prime.

Search results show people asking for this for over a year. DE has said nothing on it. If you want to look like Excal Prime, then just use him.

There hasn't been a strong reason to use Umbra over Prime with the lack of sentient enemies, in the new war we now have a reason and that was not discussed a year ago.

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Just now, Krogothian said:

There hasn't been a strong reason to use Umbra over Prime with the lack of sentient enemies, in the new war we now have a reason and that was not discussed a year ago.

What I mean by the search thing is people have been making posts about using Prime's skin on Umbra for a year now.

And even with New War coming Excal Prime with Paracesis is still a viable option to using Umbra. Radial Blind and hit with sword will get you the same result as Radial Howl.

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Just now, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

What I mean by the search thing is people have been making posts about using Prime's skin on Umbra for a year now.

And even with New War coming Excal Prime with Paracesis is still a viable option to using Umbra. Radial Blind and hit with sword will get you the same result as Radial Howl.

It's literally not a viable alternative unless you're using Excal as a melee frame not only can you not use Paracesis while in exalted blade but the exalted blade would do 82.6% less damage to sentient targets and with Chromatic blade that could be over 100% less with how a gas build double dips. On top of this, it'd have a shorter range and cut the damage another 10%. You're literally suggesting that a ~100% dmg downgrade is nothing.

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As someone who has Excal Prime, he is the ugliest frame in the entire game.  Looks like a drunk who slipped into a crappy fitting cat suit, and someone slapped a Forma on his face.  Its just the worst lol.

I don't see anything wrong with Excal Prime being a skin for Umbra.  However, I have no idea why the hell you would do that to yourself.

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1 minute ago, Klaleara said:

However, I have no idea why the hell you would do that to yourself.

Because he has different tates.

Anyways on another note, Scott suggested once there were plans to introduce a mechanic/lore tie in as to how Primes were effective against Sentients.

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11 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

As someone who has Excal Prime, he is the ugliest frame in the entire game.  Looks like a drunk who slipped into a crappy fitting cat suit, and someone slapped a Forma on his face.  Its just the worst lol.

I don't see anything wrong with Excal Prime being a skin for Umbra.  However, I have no idea why the hell you would do that to yourself.

Basically, I just want this:

661QOQ0.png

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I'm totally down for letting ExcalP wear a scarf, or letting Umbra wear the void-key-helmet, but in what universe is Umbra a direct upgrade to ExcalP?

- Umbra is practically hardwired to ruin stealth gameplay when you go operator
- Umbra automatically disables Exalted Blade whenever you go operator
- Radial Howl is noticeably slower than Radial Blind (although not gamechangingly so like it was during release)
- You do have Umbral Forma if you want their builds to match

 

Really, Umbra's only real upsides in high-leveled gameplay are:

- You can switch to operator in midair without blackscreening from the frame falling into a pit
- Operators don't forcibly return to the warframe when it gets heavily damaged (although neither does ExcalP if he doesn't have his 4 out, since he'll be immune to damage to begin with)
- AoE sentient resistance resets (although you can do this just as fast on any other warframe by spinning the camera with literally a Mote Amp)

The two are sidegrades, and that's fine.

Edited by SortaRandom
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DE has already ruled on the matter. Umbra is not a prime, and is a sidegrade. This, he doesn't get anything particular the prime has, including the use of the prime skin, just like how the prime doesn't get anything Umbra has in particular. This is an old argument that's been settled for over a year now, don't revive it.

Edited by Atsia
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Sadly, yeah, DE did in fact say about this the once. Just once.

Umbra is not a Prime, only Primes get to use Prime Helmets and Skins. Likewise Prime is not an Umbra, and so cannot use the Umbral skin. And since regular Excal is neither a Prime nor an Umbra, that frame can't use either.

You might want it to be different, but nope. No non-Prime can use a Prime skin/helmet, only the Accessories.

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3 hours ago, Atsia said:

DE has already ruled on the matter. Umbra is not a prime, and is a sidegrade. This, he doesn't get anything particular the prime has, including the use of the prime skin, just like how the prime doesn't get anything Umbra has in particular. This is an old argument that's been settled for over a year now, don't revive it.

I'm not reviving it, I don't know if you noticed but circumstances can change and the new war does completely make Prime not a sidegrade. 

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3 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

- You do have Umbral Forma if you want their builds to match

 

 

You have 1 umbral forma, Umbra has 5. I don't know if you noticed but that does not let the build match because 1 is not 5. Umbra used to be a different take on Prime and I could see as a sidegrade but once again, with the new war, that's changed. It's like saying that rhino wasn't changed in over all power when nulifiers were added and it's completely disingenuous. 

Edited by Krogothian
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5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You might want it to be different, but nope. No non-Prime can use a Prime skin/helmet, only the Accessories.

I've always been of the opinion that Excalibur Prime and his weapons should be exempt from this line of thinking, considering how limited they are and it's not just something a player could go and farm for or buy from trade chat

Before Excalibur Umbra existed, there were two Warframe variants. Original, and Prime. Aesthetically, Primes could use the original skins so what madman would use a Prime skin on the objectively-inferior original frame? Prime-for-Prime logic holds true.

And then you get Johnny Big-Energy Umbra on the scene. In lieu of no Vandal or Wraith or Prisma warframes, here's our third variant. And to make things more interesting, it's Excalibur - aka the only Prime warframe that can't be earned. And it's subjectively more powerful than the old Founders exclusive. If you've been playing and paying for years now. if you're a minmaxer, you're kinda forced to use the scarved avenger. But it's not objectively superior.

And now we have the New War, with the focus on Sentients. Chad Umbra has his abilities themed to be the go-to Sentient slayer. Our virgin Excalibur Prime is feeling a bit left out in the cold.

At this point, with no other Umbras on the horizon, and Excalibur Prime as rare as it is, why not let them share cosmetics? True enough, Excal Prime has always been problematic, but that doesn't mean he should be shackled up in the basement never again to see the light of day.

 

Edited by LoopStricken
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2 hours ago, Krogothian said:

I'm not reviving it, I don't know if you noticed but circumstances can change and the new war does completely make Prime not a sidegrade. 

You kinda are, there hasn't been a thread about it in months, at least none that, I've seen. And no, the new war doesn't make Umbra an upgrade, since it's only A) gonna be one single part of the game at large, and B) you have both the option of the Paracesis and your space kid to remove resistances. Umbra having it innate isn't enough to make it objectively better.

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2 minutes ago, Atsia said:

You kinda are, there hasn't been a thread about it in months, at least none that, I've seen. And no, the new war doesn't make Umbra an upgrade, since it's only A) gonna be one single part of the game at large, and B) you have both the option of the Paracesis and your space kid to remove resistances. Umbra having it innate isn't enough to make it objectively better.

You are factually wrong, against sentient targets umbra does not have to drop exalted blade to rip resistances, does not void his passive in using the Paracesis, has more range to than the paracesis and deals at least 100% more damage with exalted blade to sentients. You are literally arguing that founders can't have a cosmetic on a one-off that some of us spent $250 on because Prime is a sidegrade of Umbra and you are 100% entirely wrong, prime is objectively worse and I'm not asking that the frame I once again spent $250 dollars on be better or equivalent but instead just use the cosmetic because it's neat. 

So let's run this down, again, this is literally a request to use the most expensive warframe in the game as a dust collector and look at his likeness in another warframe because I know that my most expensive warframe in the game is objectively worse than a free warframe included in a quest. It is unreasonable to hold DE to making Excal Prime the best Excal possible and I'm not asking for that, I'm literally only asking to look like what I paid for and you're defending that in a game where we have myriads of skins now that it's unreasonable.

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Man, you focus so much on the new war thing to make your point that you're fotgetting some details:

1) DE went out of their way to make Umbra different from Prime to avoid making founders upset, they cemented that further by removing the void passive from umbra using "he's not a prime" as argument, so since he's not a prime, he isn't able to use the prime skin. As simple as that.

2) Umbral forma exists, and even tough we can get one every ~4 months, you can eventually gather enough to make your excalibur prime have your desired full umbra build and perform the same if not better thanks to the lack of self-consciousness.

3) There are no new umbra frames anywhere at sight, amd i'm sure that DE doesn't want every single player to play the new war with excalibur umbra, the umbra formas from nightwave seem more like a preview of these so we can have our favorite frame ready for the new war when it comes.

4) Because of the pointed above, it's likely for umbra formas to become more widely available in the game so you won't have to wait until the end of nightwave season 5 for that fifth umbra forma.

5) the new war isn't here yet, so this post is basically putting a bandage without a scar while weirdly flexing on how long you have been here and the money you spent once 6 years ago.

6) Even tough founder packs were up to $250, excalibur was available on the second cheapest pack at $50 so that's its actual price. The other 200 were for skana prime, lato prime, access to the design council, founder badges, and perhaps some other stuff aside from the freebies that DE has given later down the road.

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42 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Man, you focus so much on the new war thing to make your point that you're fotgetting some details:

1) DE went out of their way to make Umbra different from Prime to avoid making founders upset, they cemented that further by removing the void passive from umbra using "he's not a prime" as argument, so since he's not a prime, he isn't able to use the prime skin. As simple as that.

2) Umbral forma exists, and even tough we can get one every ~4 months, you can eventually gather enough to make your excalibur prime have your desired full umbra build and perform the same if not better thanks to the lack of self-consciousness.

3) There are no new umbra frames anywhere at sight, amd i'm sure that DE doesn't want every single player to play the new war with excalibur umbra, the umbra formas from nightwave seem more like a preview of these so we can have our favorite frame ready for the new war when it comes.

4) Because of the pointed above, it's likely for umbra formas to become more widely available in the game so you won't have to wait until the end of nightwave season 5 for that fifth umbra forma.

5) the new war isn't here yet, so this post is basically putting a bandage without a scar while weirdly flexing on how long you have been here and the money you spent once 6 years ago.

6) Even tough founder packs were up to $250, excalibur was available on the second cheapest pack at $50 so that's its actual price. The other 200 were for skana prime, lato prime, access to the design council, founder badges, and perhaps some other stuff aside from the freebies that DE has given later down the road.

1) Yeah, make it look different than base Excal for the most part. Let's be honest, Excal Prime is EXTREMELY close to excal, like so close if I swap his helm to base excal you really have to look to notice.

2) Your solution for wanting a small cosmetic is to not even the power between the two but to simply imply I'm just not working hard enough to obtain 20 months worth of farming. Nice.

3) Yes, becasue Excal Umbra is a 1-off to please people complaining about Excal Prime, I don't mind, I don't even mind him being stronger, just want to use a skin.

4) It can be as likely as it wants; doesn't change the fact that right now you can only have 1/5th the required forma and you still can't shred resistance so, why? 

5) Yep, why I am trying to get DE to look at it before they release.... oh, I get it, you're just upset that I have excal prime. lol

6) Yeah, the most expensive warframe in the game and was an investment that allowed the game to more comfortably make it out of beta and pay the staff. 

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5 hours ago, LoopStricken said:

I've always been of the opinion that Excalibur Prime and his weapons should be exempt from this line of thinking, considering how limited they are and it's not just something a player could go and farm for or buy from trade chat

Well, I for one am incredibly proud of the ethical stand DE have shown on this; Excal Prime is exclusive, they said it would be exclusive forever, not some kind of timed exclusive, and they have stuck to that for six years.

I'm actually proud to see that a developer on a free-to-play game (where it's all about getting the money in using micro-transactions) has deliberately taken one of the things that would gain them incredible amounts of money completely off the table. It makes me trust them as a company over the scumbags out there like EA and Epic.

5 hours ago, LoopStricken said:

And then you get Johnny Big-Energy Umbra on the scene.

And they explained exactly why he's a variant in the Quest, even going so far as to explain exactly what warframes are so as to help with that explanation.

DE have confirmed there will be more Umbral frames, not every frame will have an Umbral variant, it will be fairly exclusive and usually story-driven, while every frame must have a Prime because the Primes are how they were created.

Excal Umbra is the apparent go-to for sentient related things, but of course he would be. Every player in the game is given an Umbra Excal for free, just for playing the quest, along with the sword that's built for the same thing. You just get them. That's what he's for. DE would not make Sentients the focus without giving all players at least one way of dealing with them. It's why Operators for all that they're limited, allow every single Warframe to be able to kill Sentients quickly when they haven't spec'd for them.

Meanwhile because he's free, because you get him for playing and for taking on further content, why in the heck would he alone have the added function of de-exclusive-ising the exclusive content? You or others may have Excal Prime, but he's never going to be available to anyone else, and letting Umbra be a bypass for that is just bypassing that whole exclusivity.

Why should a free frame give you access to exclusive paid content? Especially when there was actually a brief time in Umbra's history where Excal Prime and he could actually interchange accessories and DE deliberately patched that function out.

I don't make the rules, here, but I do know them and know why they exist. Non-Prime frames do not get access to Prime helmets and skins, Umbra has been deliberately patched so as to confirm that he is not a Prime, ergo the answer is no.

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5 hours ago, Krogothian said:

You are factually wrong, against sentient targets umbra does not have to drop exalted blade to rip resistances, does not void his passive in using the Paracesis, has more range to than the paracesis and deals at least 100% more damage with exalted blade to sentients.

And Sentients are such a niche portion of the total content in the game that even with the new war coming, having the innate effect is not enough to make it a complete upgrade. It's at best a minor advantage that base Excal and the Prime can easily work around with the main form of removing resistances, your operator (which also negates your argument about Exalted blade since going into spoiler mode doesn't stop the ability, actually an advantage it has over Umbra).

 

5 hours ago, Krogothian said:

You are literally arguing that founders can't have a cosmetic on a one-off that some of us spent $250 on because Prime is a sidegrade of Umbra and you are 100% entirely wrong, prime is objectively worse and I'm not asking that the frame I once again spent $250 dollars on be better or equivalent but instead just use the cosmetic because it's neat. 

I'm saying that it won't happen because DE has said "Umbra is not a Prime". That means he has to deal with same limitations as every other non-prime, and thus doesn't get to use any of the Prime stuff, cosmetics and everything else.

5 hours ago, Krogothian said:

So let's run this down, again, this is literally a request to use the most expensive warframe in the game as a dust collector and look at his likeness in another warframe because I know that my most expensive warframe in the game is objectively worse than a free warframe included in a quest.

But he really isn't, The sentient stuff is too niche to matter, and his passive can be argued to be a detriment. Nothing makes Umbra an objectively better choice when everything he does, we already did just fine before he came, and him having it innately doesn't invalidate anything completely.

 

5 hours ago, Krogothian said:

It is unreasonable to hold DE to making Excal Prime the best Excal possible and I'm not asking for that, I'm literally only asking to look like what I paid for and you're defending that in a game where we have myriads of skins now that it's unreasonable.

It is when it's something that pretty much been already said no to be DE until proven otherwise.

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