Embolist Riven Nerf, why?

[SlothserveSodium]

Why would you nerf the embolist's riven disposition? I have a god riven for it and it's still incredibly difficult to make it viable for sorties. This riven did NOT need a nerf. It's a terrible weapon. lol please fix this soon

Edited July 10, 2019 by SlothserveSodium

[birdobash]

Riven dispositions are based off of weapon popularity not power (although normally it does correlate with each other). So perhaps more people have been using the embolyst recently than normal?

[TeaHawk]

It's due to some dudes using that weapon more. I have the exact same problem — they nerfed my lovely viper riven (already really weak weapon). I assume some dudes are using viper more. Please, stop. I suggest you all stop using viper simultaneously. Take some meta staticor/kitguns, guys. You don't need viper. Move along.

[TaylorsContraction]

Yeah the viper and embolist riven nerfs were odd. My gueds is they nerfed them because their negative values could go too low... Or something...

[Marvelous_A]

The disposition changes are probably generated using a program. There could be a rise in weapon usage because of whatever reason (coincidence, most likely) and the program decided it could use a nerf.

[TeaHawk]

2 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Yeah the viper and embolist riven nerfs were odd. My gueds is they nerfed them because their negative values could go too low... Or something...

That does not make any sense.

[Mr.SpookSpook]

Both Embolist and Viper nerfs were uncalled for and dumb. 

[binioslaw]

18 hours ago, Mr.SpookSpook said:

Both Embolist and Viper nerfs were uncalled for and dumb. 

Tetra and Aklex also made me scratch my head.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2019-07-10 at 6:17 AM, Marvelous_A said:

The disposition changes are probably generated using a program. There could be a rise in weapon usage because of whatever reason (coincidence, most likely) and the program decided it could use a nerf.

That’s an incredibly flawed system. Because their are some weapon like Lanka and Rubico that are needed for something like Eidolon hunts. Why should we be punished for being forced into using certain weapons for certain things?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2019-07-10 at 12:17 PM, Marvelous_A said:

The disposition changes are probably generated using a program. There could be a rise in weapon usage because of whatever reason (coincidence, most likely) and the program decided it could use a nerf

They aren't. The devs look at the stats for weapon playtime, but they don't always follow it. For instance the Mara Detron can still get a riven that gives it 100% status, but it shouldn't by pure popularity (everyone who has one has used it a lot).

On 2019-07-10 at 6:00 AM, SlothserveSodium said:

Why would you nerf the embolist's riven disposition

Because people are playing it more. I'm not sure why, but maybe because Lezar recently did a build video on it and it is a good proc spreader.

On 2019-07-10 at 7:54 AM, TeaHawk said:

they nerfed my lovely viper riven

Now that one is a mystery. The viper sucks. The viper wraith sucks. More people must be using it.

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That’s an incredibly flawed system. Because their are some weapon like Lanka and Rubico that are needed for something like Eidolon hunts. Why should we be punished for being forced into using certain weapons for certain things

Because they work just fine against Eidolons without rivens, which is what DE want. They're already meta, even if you dislike both (and I do hate the Lanka) you have to take one of them for Eidolon hunting, and that gets boring.

DE want rivens to make some other weapon Eidolon hunt viable, so you're the only player using that gun because you have a riven for it that makes it better than the Rubico/Lanka hegemony.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

3 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

DE want rivens to make some other weapon Eidolon hunt viable, so you're the only player using that gun because you have a riven for it that makes it better than the Rubico/Lanka hegemony.

While this sounds excellent in theory, it is impossible in practice due to the way Eidolons work and the way mods work.

Put simply, there are no weapons, other than Lanka/Rubico/Fulmin, that have good enough base stats and damage types to be Eidolon viable with or without a riven (with the only prior exception being the Opticor before its numerous riven nerfs). This is because Eidolons are status immune, have very high health and armor, and are very vulnerable to radiation damage. Thus, a high-damage, high-crit weapon with radiation (or elements to combine to radiation) is the only viable option, and Lanka/Fulmin fulfill the damage and damage type requirements while having enough crit, and the Rubico fulfills the Damage and Crit requirements while having enough room to build for radiation.

DE would either have to change how mods work, change how riven mods work, or change how Eidolons work in order for that to change. Even if we get another weapon that is Eidolon viable, that will just be adding a new weapon to the meta, not changing the meta.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

15 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Thus, a high-damage, high-crit weapon with radiation (or elements to combine to radiation) is the only viable option

There are plenty of other weapons that do high crit damage, a riven with crit + electric or heat (or both) is all they need.

15 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

(with the only prior exception being the Opticor before its numerous riven nerfs).

The Opticor has always sucked against Eidolons due to how its AoE is applied. It only does them a tiny fraction of its damage. I'm not sure whether that's a bug or deliberate, but I think the Battacor has the same issues.

15 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Put simply, there are no weapons, other than Lanka/Rubico/Fulmin, that have good enough base stats and damage types to be Eidolon viable with or without a riven

I'd disagree. I've seen other viable weapons, even some secondaries. With the right buffs the  archgun Velocitus can be incredibly effective too.

15 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

. Even if we get another weapon that is Eidolon viable, that will just be adding a new weapon to the meta, not changing the meta

Yeah, I don't think rivens can break the meta, critically though they shouldn't enforce it. Rivens should be near useless on any weapon that's already meta because otherwise that weapon becomes the only option. 

For instance, suppose the Rubico had a riven dispo of 5. It would instantly become the only Eidolon hunter, and you'd need a riven to keep up. A riven that costs 1000's of plat if you're not extremely lucky.

That's what DE want to avoid. Rivens go from fun extra that make random unpopular weapons viable to required build components locked behind harsh RNG or lots of plat. 

Any weapon that looks like it's getting to that place they're going to nerfhammer that riven every time.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yeah, I don't think rivens can break the meta, critically though they shouldn't enforce it. Rivens should be near useless on any weapon that's already meta because otherwise that weapon becomes the only option. 

For instance, suppose the Rubico had a riven dispo of 5. It would instantly become the only Eidolon hunter, and you'd need a riven to keep up. A riven that costs 1000's of plat if you're not extremely lucky. 

That's what DE want to avoid. Rivens go from fun extra that make random unpopular weapons viable to required build components locked behind harsh RNG or lots of plat.

The problem I have is that Lanka is not exactly useful outside of eidolons, so I used a riven to patch up its problems against normal content (100% crit at minimum zoom, faster fire rate, etc.), which makes it amazing for eidolons, but actually useful in most other content as well.

Now, to keep it from becoming the only thing for eidolons, they have completely ruined any chance of me using it for anything but eidolons (and the Raptor boss fight, but that's still pretty limited). Which is both ironic and sad.

As I said, the problem is with the Eidolon mechanics. Not the players, not the weapons, and not even the rivens. The Eidolons themselves (or more accurately, the way DE created them) are to blame for the current situation DE is in when it comes to rivens. Any weapon that is good for niche content but bad at general content will have its rivens nerfed due to the niche content and then lose any chance of being good at general content.

Now the Rubico I can understand, as its zoom mechanic just increases crit damage, and therefor doesn't affect it as badly as the Lanka, and it is semi-auto and hit-scan, to other things that put it above the Lanka in terms of general content. And the Fulmin is good at general content, both due to its shotgun-like mechanics and its mode-switching.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

6 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The problem I have is that Lanka is not exactly useful outside of eidolons, so I used a riven to patch up its problems against normal content (100% crit at minimum zoom, faster fire rate, etc.), which makes it amazing for eidolons, but actually useful in most other content as well.

Yeah, the Lanka is hard MR fodder in every other context. It just happens to be the only crit sniper with the right base damage type.

6 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Now, to keep it from becoming the only thing for eidolons, they have completely ruined any chance of me using it for anything but eidolons

Er. Yeah. I'm not sure of how to fix that. Improving the Lanka enough to make it generally useful would make it a painfully fixed meta for Eidolon, balancing it for Eidolon makes it useless for anything else. 

I think the latter is probably their only option: killing one weapon is better than creating a concrete meta that requires a riven.

6 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Any weapon that is good for niche content but bad at general content will have its rivens nerfed due to the niche content and then lose any chance of being good at general content

Yes, because a niche meta is still a meta. Everything in Warframe is niche - there is no loadout that works best everywhere. I mean, I never have enough loadout slots - here I need Gara, there I want Nekros, that needs an Ignis here but it's useless there, Saryn owns at ESO but can't hurt Eidolons, and so on.

Rivens exist to get people to use unused weapons. Sometimes you get something like the Tiberion Prime or the Opticor Vandal that ends up game breaking, but don't spend your plat: they're always gonna fix that.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Everything in Warframe is niche...

Rivens exist to get people to use unused weapons.

These two statements, taken together, explain why rivens have become nothing more than a cash grab on the part of DE: Everything is niche, so if something can be used, it will be used, and if it can't be used, no amount of extra mod power will fix that.

The few exceptions are things like the Kohm, where a riven can be used to make up for shortcomings in the game mechanics, and melee, where +range and +slide crit can make almost any weapon good. Any other time, the weapon either has stats that are good on their own, and therefore are used both with and without rivens, which lowers their disposition; or the weapon has bad stats, and no amount of multiplicative modding can fix that.

Personally, I think the only way Rivens could become what they were intended is if their stats were heavily reduced, while being turned into post-modding additive values. Something along the lines of +50% crit/status/damage/+100% crit damage after mods for 5/5 disposition, down to +10% crit/damage/+25% status/+50% crit damage for 1/5 disposition. This would allow weak weapons to catch up, while providing minimal bonuses to strong weapons, and also be better at shoring up a weapon's weak points instead of further bolstering its strong points.

However, that would take a lot of work, and I don't see DE doing that right now. I still think DE shouldn't have been so secretive about rivens prior to release, as they could have received feedback pointing out the broken system they wound up creating. However, that time is past, and we are stuck with what we have.