Revenant desperately needs some speeding up...

[selig_fay]

il y a 2 minutes, nslay a dit :

Well, that's not how it works with those two enemies. Though it would explain the Orokin Sentry behavior I observe. Try it.

It works for all the damage that you get. Be a thousand enemies.Simply for game time flies imperceptibly and 12 seconds - only a moment.

Edited July 12, 2019 by zhellon

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, zhellon said:

It works for all the damage that you get. Be a thousand enemies.Simply for game time flies imperceptibly and 12 seconds - only a moment.

Then maybe it's a bug with Exploiter/armed Grineer drop ships because you are definitely stripped of Mesmer Skin stacks very quickly when confronted by them (far quicker than 12 seconds). But definitely sounds plausible for the Orokin Sentries.  The easiest way to reproduce what I observe is to fly around Temple of Profit and look for the wandering Exploiter, activate Mesmer Skin, and then watch it remove 6 stacks with each of its burst of 6 consecutive shots. There is definitely no 2 second delay between lost stacks.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That right there is what we call an oxymoron. Tho only in the context of which you’re saying it.

While Mesmer Skin is always stuck with the same number of charges, all other tank abilities with a form of resource are able to scale to take more damage before being depleted. And I’m going to go out on a limb and say that 99% of the time they’re going to protect you for far more than 18 hits. As for it’s recast. It’s slow, it’s unbearably slow and it leaves you vulnerable to get shot. Now there are was to remedy that. Natural talent and Rolling guard. But why does Revenant require two mods to fix issues with Mesmer Skin that no other tank frame suffers from? Chroma doesn’t lose his buffs when recasting vex armor and Nezha has the AOE best proc stun when warding halo runs out. It can’t all be justified by the 100% damage reduction. Because the only place that’s really necessary in is facing off against enemies that no normal player is going to face because 2 hour Endurance runs are no more rewarding that doing two 1 hour endurance runs. And there are a few frames that can perform a similar feat but also provide far more beneficial functionality than Revenant. So ultimately, Mesmer Skin existing the way it does in the game right now has no justification for its existence. It’s just a bad tank ability. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

The scalability is not particularly strong at all. If you talk to anyone who plays against high level enemies they'd straight up tell you that iron skin is terrible. Nezhas is only slightly better because you're capable of making use of arcanes and mods that require you to take damage. Both iron skin and Halo are merely second bars of health that have zero modifiers to them so damage at high level can shred them easily. 

Chromas vex armor is also not amazing on its own because it like any other armor based tank are still very vulnerable to status procs. Chroma requires adaptation to be a decent tank at high level. And by your own wording having to use mods to patch up something makes it bad. 

As I've mentioned before revenant can't die with mesmer skin up. There are no other abilities in the game like this. Furthermore none of the tanks you've mentioned thus far have damage reduction. Which is the most important thing to have if you're talking about tanking. The best armor tank in the game is inaros and even he will crumple before revenant because he's vulnerable to status. (granted you can eek more out of him with negation swarm and adaptation but reee using mods is bad.) 

The only other frame in this game that can be considered an equal in tanking compared to revenant is hyldrin. As she has shield gating and is immune to status procs lethality when she has overshields.

Finally as I've mentioned already the enthrall mechanic allows you to abuse enemies in ways other cc frames can't. Revenant doesn't add a lot of team value unlike hyldrin. Which is a downside. 

But again. He's not trash. You just don't like him. 

[G0D5peed]

Ah revenant... the new wukong. I’m sure there is a balance thanos meme to be made here 

[nslay]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The only other frame in this game that can be considered an equal in tanking compared to revenant is hyldrin. As she has shield gating and is immune to status procs lethality when she has overshields. 

The recent ranking of tanks thread by F00l placed Nidus at #1 and Revenant at #2. I just got Nidus this week so I don't know much about him. Do you have any insight why Nidus would outrank Revenant as a tank?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Furthermore none of the tanks you've mentioned thus far have damage reduction.

Warding Halo: 90% DR

Parasitic Link: 90% DR

Iron Skin: technically 100% DR until it runs out. I know it’s not true 100% DR so don’t go accusing me of believing it is.

Vex Armor and Ice Ward: I don’t want to do Armor->DR calculations so let’s just say 70-80% DR.

Shattershield: 90% DR

Garas 2: 90% DR

Mirage Night Eclipse: 90% DR

Desolate Hands: 90% DR

Now I don’t know about you, but all those abilities look like they have damage reduction to me.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

The recent ranking of tanks thread by F00l placed Nidus at #1 and Revenant at #2. I just got Nidus this week so I don't know much about him. Do you have any insight why Nidus would outrank Revenant as a tank?

Without seeing the thread myself and the criteria involved in judging I can only guess. 

But I'd assume it's because nidus can take advantage of things that require him to take damage via his link ability which also makes him status immune. On top of his stacks making him invulnerable whenever he takes lethal damage.

But also probably taking into consideration that mesmer skin is technically hard countered by beam weapons and some other special cases where they rip multiple charges at once. 

I do not recall if it is possible for Nidus to kill himself with self damage with stacks up or not. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

12 minutes ago, nslay said:

The recent ranking of tanks thread by F00l placed Nidus at #1 and Revenant at #2. I just got Nidus this week so I don't know much about him. Do you have any insight why Nidus would outrank Revenant as a tank?

Parasitic Link + Adaptation + stupid amount of armor + Undying passive. Nidus Does Not Die.

Edited July 12, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[nslay]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Parasitic Link + Adaptation + stupid amount of armor + Undying passive. Nidus Does Not Die.

Cool, I will give that a try... Well, if I ever get Adaptation. It'll drop some day...

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Warding Halo: 90% DR

Parasitic Link: 90% DR

Iron Skin: technically 100% DR until it runs out. I know it’s not true 100% DR so don’t go accusing me of believing it is.

Vex Armor and Ice Ward: I don’t want to do Armor->DR calculations so let’s just say 70-80% DR.

Shattershield: 90% DR

Garas 2: 90% DR

Mirage Night Eclipse: 90% DR

Desolate Hands: 90% DR

Now I don’t know about you, but all those abilities look like they have damage reduction to me.

Of the abilities you listed desolate hands, shatter shield, splinter storm, and mirages night buff are DR. The rest use armor to give effective DR. But what I am speaking of is abilities that reduce the damage before taking into account the rest of the equation. 

A good example is wukongs new defy versus splinter storm. Wukongs max 1500 armor is equivalent to (Iirc) 75-80% DR. But he dies quicker with just that compared to gara with only splinter storm up. So yes to repeat again armor tanks like the three I mentioned are not as tanky as people believe on their own without the help of mods like adaptation.

[nslay]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

But also probably taking into consideration that mesmer skin is technically hard countered by beam weapons and some other special cases where they rip multiple charges at once.  

I can't think of any enemies with beam weapons. The ones that scare me most are armed Grineer drop ships and Phase 1 Exploiter Orb. They have high fire rate and are 100% accurate. They strip stacks fast! Strangely, the Orokin Sentries and Ospreys with laser repeaters seem to be gated by Mesmer Skin despite their high fire rate.

[DeadVoid118]

I actually love Revenant's current abilities. I do agree he needs casting times to be quicker, but his abilities aren't crap. His invincibility is unrivaled at higher levels, his CC can do a lot to throw off aggression and works well in interception at higher levels when immediate murder isn't incredibly easy. I do think Reave needs to be buffed, since it's only use is scaling damage which Magus Lockdown can easily do better. If you're using Reave for healing, you're dead at higher levels and there's not much of a point. Dance Macabre could do with a nerf to that energy drain.

I like playing Revenant as is. Anyone who thinks he's crap probably either doesn't understand how to play him or doesn't like the playstyle, which is fine but go play a different frame then.

22 minutes ago, nslay said:

The recent ranking of tanks thread by F00l placed Nidus at #1 and Revenant at #2. I just got Nidus this week so I don't know much about him. Do you have any insight why Nidus would outrank Revenant as a tank?

Nidus potentially outranks Revenant in terms of tanking because A) Nidus has the ability to revive himself and B) Revenant's mesmer stacks can go away too fast and/or take a bit to refresh, making you vulnerable for that duration. In a game where a single shot can kill, that time is important. Personally, I find Revenant to be the better tank simply because Nidus will eventually lose to high levels (though, granted, those levels are very high), while Revenant's overall tanking ability isn't too reliant on enemy level not being ridiculous.

[nslay]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

A good example is wukongs new defy versus splinter storm. Wukongs max 1500 armor is equivalent to (Iirc) 75-80% DR. But he dies quicker with just that compared to gara with only splinter storm up. So yes to repeat again armor tanks like the three I mentioned are not as tanky as people believe on their own without the help of mods like adaptation. 

To be fair, I really feel Revenant's Adaptation is Natural Talent. It significantly reduces that moment of vulnerability when he recasts Mesmer Skin. I view Natural Talent as a defense mod to justify slotting it! But I guess there was a time I didn't use Natural Talent and he worked fine. But 2 seconds of vulnerability can be scary!

[DeadVoid118]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Of the abilities you listed desolate hands, shatter shield, splinter storm, and mirages night buff are DR. The rest use armor to give effective DR. But what I am speaking of is abilities that reduce the damage before taking into account the rest of the equation. 

A good example is wukongs new defy versus splinter storm. Wukongs max 1500 armor is equivalent to (Iirc) 75-80% DR. But he dies quicker with just that compared to gara with only splinter storm up. So yes to repeat again armor tanks like the three I mentioned are not as tanky as people believe on their own without the help of mods like adaptation.

Parasitic Link does not use armor, and neither does Warding Halo, at least to reduce damage. The only way they 'use' armor is that their duration would be based off your armor, but that doesn't mean they're less effective in reducing damage, just that they last not as long at higher levels (Parasitic link relies on enemies though, so really that's only true for Warding Halo which calculates its ehp from your frame's armor).

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

14 minutes ago, nslay said:

I can't think of any enemies with beam weapons. The ones that scare me most are armed Grineer drop ships and Phase 1 Exploiter Orb. They have high fire rate and are 100% accurate. They strip stacks fast! Strangely, the Orokin Sentries and Ospreys with laser repeaters seem to be gated by Mesmer Skin despite their high fire rate.

I can't name them off the top of my head but there are some. But really any attack that is coded to hit you with multiple ticks of damage from a single contact with you is what counters mesmer skin. 

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

To be fair, I really feel Revenant's Adaptation is Natural Talent. It significantly reduces that moment of vulnerability when he recasts Mesmer Skin. I view Natural Talent as a defense mod to justify slotting it! But I guess there was a time I didn't use Natural Talent and he worked fine. But 2 seconds of vulnerability can be scary!

I currently use natural talent. If I was only caring for mesmer skin I'd sub it out for rolling guard as the 3 seconds of invulnerability from that is more than enough to protect a cast of mesmer skin. But because I use all of his abilities natural talent is far more beneficial for me.

4 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

Parasitic Link does not use armor, and neither does Warding Halo, at least to reduce damage. The only way they 'use' armor is that their duration would be based off your armor, but that doesn't mean they're less effective in reducing damage, just that they last not as long at higher levels (Parasitic link relies on enemies though, so really that's only true for Warding Halo which calculates its ehp from your frame's armor).

When I say armor tanks I'm referring to anything that helps you survive while taking damage but it doesn't give you true damage reduction. In niduses case his link effectively gives him 90% DR just like armor but without using actual armor as a stat. 

I hope I wasn't confusing with this explanation. 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I'll keep saying this until he gets reworked:  Rev is mediocre.  Enthrall is his biggest handicap and until that ability is scrapped or reworked he will continue to wallow in the hellish nightmare of mediocrity.

[Azvalk]

il y a 23 minutes, (XB1)Thy Divinity a dit :

I'll keep saying this until he gets reworked:  Rev is mediocre.  Enthrall is his biggest handicap and until that ability is scrapped or reworked he will continue to wallow in the hellish nightmare of mediocrity.

  <.< it's me and my Revenant.

I'm usually a very serious user of the forum, but there, I'm sorry, I have to laugh, without argument !!
( And proud of it xD )

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

50 minutes ago, Azvalk said:

  <.< it's me and my Revenant.

I'm usually a very serious user of the forum, but there, I'm sorry, I have to laugh, without argument !!
( And proud of it xD )

Hey, laugh away.

While I'm sure there are those who will attempt to convince others to bask in the glory of his 'hidden' overpowered nature, the rest of us already know the score.  I've previously stated that Rev may seem broken while in solo missions....like every other frame in the game, so let's explore his team functionality:

Enthrall brings zero viability or synergy to any team that I can think of, unless the other players are either trolling or new to the game.  With the current state of the game, death is the best CC.  No one in their right mind is going to let ANY enemies survive, enthralled or otherwise.  Hell, I still see people shooting at Nekros' shadows ffs.  

Mesmer Skin is overrated.  Is it a good ability?  Hell yes.  will it enable Rev to compete with Iron Skin, Vex Armor, or anything Inaros?  Not even close.  If anything, all it really does is provide a small CC to a team, in which we've already gone over how much CC is valued these days.  What?  You said you get a free Enthrall cast on enemies stunned by Mesmer Skin?  Cool!  Wait, where did all the enemies go?  Blasted teammates!

Reave....just no.  The distance is determined by duration, which based upon the opinion of these wonderful Rev mains have provided, means less Mesmer skin stacks.  But wait!  It's useful for restoring large amounts of shields and health, non?  Mais oui!  Then again, you kind of need enemies to be enthralled for those large restores.  Drat, your squadmates killed those thralls already!  That damned Enthrall again.  I know, I'll just use it to get around faster using-

Danse Macabre.  And burn through all your energy.  Especially considering your efficiency and duration are more than likely compromised in favor of those Mesmer stacks.  Which by the way, you run out of very quickly by enemies at higher levels who don't instantly melt the moment you get started.  This ability is the other least useful because your team usually is packing enough firepower to put a hole in the world anyway.  Looks pretty though.  Even if the damage does need time to ramp up because of the nature of the ability.

 

In all, he's probably used best in solo, but there are far, far better solo frames out there that require less micromanagement and are far more efficient than Revenant.  Average is not bad, and neither is he.  Enthrall must be tossed if this frame is going to be anything other than middle of the pack.

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by (XB1)Thy Divinity

[nslay]

These kinds of criticisms are often not supported by experience either because the situations are unrealistic,   some lack of imagination of how you can use his skills in a variety scenarios, or just that the criticism is completely orthogonal to his usage. An example of the last point is your critique about Reave and duration... Err, what? What in the world are you talking about?

Good criticisms I've heard:

Reave heals but players have nearly 100% uptime on Mesmer Skin. This doesn't make a lot of sense.

What's the point of his depleted shield passive or overshields when he has Mesmer Skin up most of the time?

Why does Danse Macabre destroy Thrall pillars?

Danse Macabre returns damage Revenant takes but he has Mesmer Skin up which prevents damage to Revenant.

 

Learn-to-Play Revenant criticisms I've heard:

Enthrall is useless in multiplayer because allies can kill the Thralls.

Mesmer Skin is bad because you are vulnerable when you recast it.

Mesmer Skin charges are bad because I think that enemies will hit Revenant too frequently to have any sort of uptime with Mesmer Skin.

Danse Macabre eats too much energy.

 

"What are you talking about?" criticisms I've heard:

Reave distance is based on ability duration.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

6 minutes ago, nslay said:

These kinds of criticisms are often not supported by experience either because the situations are unrealistic,   some lack of imagination of how you can use his skills in a variety scenarios, or just that the criticism is completely orthogonal to his usage. An example of the last point is your critique about Reave and duration... Err, what? What in the world are you talking about?

Good criticisms I've heard:

Reave heals but players have nearly 100% uptime on Mesmer Skin. This doesn't make a lot of sense.

What's the point of his depleted shield passive or overshields when he has Mesmer Skin up most of the time?

Why does Danse Macabre destroy Thrall pillars?

Danse Macabre returns damage Revenant takes but he has Mesmer Skin up which prevents damage to Revenant.

 

Learn-to-Play Revenant criticisms I've heard:

Enthrall is useless in multiplayer because allies can kill the Thralls.

Mesmer Skin is bad because you are vulnerable when you recast it.

Mesmer Skin charges are bad because I think that enemies will hit Revenant too frequently to have any sort of uptime with Mesmer Skin.

Danse Macabre eats too much energy.

 

"What are you talking about?" criticisms I've heard:

Reave distance is based on ability duration.

Reave

English

Edit

Comments Share

---

 

	ENERGY 50 KEY 3	Reave Dash through enemies as a wall of Sentient energy, leeching shields and health from any encountered, enhanced for thralls. Energy Cost (Danse Macabre active): 25	Strength:2% / 4% / 6% / 8% (hitpoints drain/restore) 10% / 20% / 30% / 40% (thrall hitpoints drain/restore)
			Duration:0.25 / 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 s (duration)
			Range:3 / 4 / 5 / 6 m (current width)
			Misc:1 (Mesmer Skin ally buff charge)

• Info
• Augment
• Tips & Tricks
• Maximization

 

• Revenant transforms into a torrent of Sentient energy that surges forward for 0.25 / 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 second. While traveling in energy form, Revenant is intangible, invulnerable to damage and protected against new Status Effects, as he pushes an energy current with a width of 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 meters. Reave can be manually cancelled by pressing the ability key again (default 3 ) during the dash.
  • Dash duration is affected by Ability Duration.
  • Casting speed is affected by  Natural Talent and  Speed Drift.
  • Current width is affected by Ability Range.
• Enemies passing through the energy current are drained 2% / 4% / 6% / 8% of their maximum Shields and Health, while Revenant restores 2% / 4% / 6% / 8% of his maximum shields and health from each enemy leeched; all active status effects on Revenant are also transferred to enemies he passes through.
  • Drain/restore percentages are affected by Ability Strength.
  • Does not restore shield points to Revenant if enemies do not possess shields.
  • Hitpoints from enemies can be drained and restored to Revenant multiple times, if enemies pass through the same instance of Reave.
• Ability Synergy:
  • Reave's shield and health drain/restore percentages increase 5 times (10% / 20% / 30% / 40% by default) against Enthralled enemies.
  • While Mesmer Skin is active, Reave restores 1 charge per thrall that Revenant passes through, up to the full charge count.
  • While Mesmer Skin is active, allies such as Warframes and Companions that pass through Reave's current will gain a Mesmer Skin buff with 1 charge that lasts until used.
  • Can be cast for 50% reduced energy cost and cancelled at any time during Danse Macabre. Casting speed becomes instantaneous and allows limited steering with the movement keys during the dash.
• During Reave, Revenant continuously dashes toward the direction of the aiming reticle.
  • While grounded, Revenant can freely change his dash direction.
  • While airborne, Revenant cannot change directions until he makes contact with a horizontal surface.
• Casting Reave is a full body animation that interrupts standard movement and other actions, with exception to Danse Macabre.
• Revenant visually becomes translucent and enveloped in Sentient energy during the dash.
• Sentient energy cloak, energy current, and particle trails are affected by Revenant's chosen Warframe energy color.

[nslay]

Yeah, and? You understand why you use, Reave right?

[nslay]

You use Reave to kill hard-to-kill enemies. You mod it with ability strength in mind. Nobody cares about Reave's distance. That's why your criticism makes no sense... Because nobody ever really cares how far Reave goes.

[m0b1us1]

10 hours ago, zhellon said:

You can use your 1 and enemies will not shoot at you at all. And you can upgrade your stacks by passing through the slaves. Even the nidus has no such invulnerability. You can generally use 2 once per mission and not worry about it.

1 is a soft cc and enemies can still shoot you. Thralls do not taunt. Nidus's passive gives him complete invincibility if he has at least 15 stacks and drops to 0 hp. He becomes completely invincible for a couple of seconds and can quickly and easily regain stacks at higher levels. So yes he has that as well on top of DR, innate hp regen, and the ability to cc with maggots. 

[selig_fay]

il y a 2 minutes, m0b1us1 a dit :

Thralls do not taunt.

Why do you always throw unverified facts?

Révélation

 

Révélation

 

 

[m0b1us1]

8 hours ago, nslay said:

It's not an issue because you almost never get hit when you do this. Yes, you could get hit still. Does it really happen in practice? No!

Your position is like "Well, you could still get hit even though you almost certainly won't, so therefore it's a problem." If you want to play Revenant most effectively I am telling you from experience that this is how you do it. Do it this way and it will work wonders. Most enemies do not have good fire accuracy. If they did, Mesmer Skin would be terrible. Now if you're moving in the air, there is very little chance you take any hit. This use of Mesmer Skin works very well in practice.

You are still missing the point. If there is a flaw big enough to warrant a specific playstyle, then it is infact a flaw. 

If you are claiming that "cast in air" is a solution, then it has to be a solution to a problem. Like I said before, in general gameplay you can usually recast it whenever. However in far longer gameplay like 3hr survival and more, you have to start using stealth or death gate mechanics. Also you will still run into this issue if you are facing a constantly leveling growing number of enemies. I don't think you have been in that kind of scenario yet. I'm talking far more than 40m arb.