Removeing alerts was a terrible idea

[Tinklzs]

2 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

I have a few questions.

1. Do these extended alerts have set start times and durations?

2. Why gate off all but a handful of these Alerts at a time? Why not just let everyone see everything?

3. If the answer to 1 is no, how are the replacement Alerts chosen, if not by RNG?

4. I upgraded my PC last year, and had a couple of problems. My water cooler didn't work properly, and my PSU I ordered online shorted out after a couple months. In both cases, I had to wait a week for my first opportunity to go to the shops to get my replacements. Say I was low on Nitain and potatoes again, and must use any means available to acquire more of them. Now, say my PC was once again unavailable to me for what ever reason for about a week. What am I missing out on, and how do I get them back?

Well crap, I think I just discovered another axe in my closet. The thing seems to go on forever.

 

I like your axe grinding analogy, gives a good chuckle.

1. I've noticed most Gift of the Lotus missions start around 3pm -6pm EST, so I figure it would work around that schedule. Everyday you'd get a nitain mission, and 2-3 times a month potato/forma (just like old alerts). The durations would be for those who don't have much time to be on. Nothing we can do about players that are overly busy or have random things happen in real life. 

2. Originally I thought of them being challenge type alerts, (think nightmare alerts but actually challenging) but my thought process shifted mid-way through the thought and I never corrected myself. So ignore that bit on 'limited amount showing, 3-5" etc.

3. The ones with goodie-goodies (forma, potatoes, nitain) would be on a pre-determined schedule. 1 nitain mission (giving an amount not sure how much or little) per day, and 1 potato mission every 1-2 weeks. Again, just like old alerts.  If we add the other variety (helmets, credits/endo) I think the helms should be ones that you can current get in the 'nightwave store', that way it doesn't suck as much if you miss out on it.  The credits would be bumped up to a minimum of 30k and endo bumped up to 600-800ish, to help newbies get their basic mods leveled a bit faster without being a 'new meta of farming endo'. And it's an appealing amount for vets, so they might be enticed to help new players out there for a decent reward.

4. I mentioned it a bit in #1, but random stuff like that DE can't be held responsible for, and shouldn't be expected to, and because of that shouldn't limit helpful creativity just because misfortune happened to someone and they missed an event.

 

 

I think the old alerts by themselves were a bad idea for those who don't have too much time to play. And I think nightwave is bad in it's own way because it has the 'I'm being forced to do this" mentality, the fear of losing out on something. Whether you believe it or not, it's a psychological and it's real, just look at WoW and 25 dailies cap for that.  

I think finding a balance for both is a decent medium, and the potential for things like dark sectors could also be brought up. Possibly having arbitration style (rotates every hour) unique missions that start you at level 40s-60s and work their way up, having you fight corrupted enemies or whatever for Simaris as a way for him to get research. 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Tinklzs

[KnossosTNC]

57 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

I like your axe grinding analogy, gives a good chuckle.

1. I've noticed most Gift of the Lotus missions start around 3pm -6pm EST, so I figure it would work around that schedule. Everyday you'd get a nitain mission, and 2-3 times a month potato/forma (just like old alerts). The durations would be for those who don't have much time to be on. Nothing we can do about players that are overly busy or have random things happen in real life. 

2. Originally I thought of them being challenge type alerts, (think nightmare alerts but actually challenging) but my thought process shifted mid-way through the thought and I never corrected myself. So ignore that bit on 'limited amount showing, 3-5" etc.

3. The ones with goodie-goodies (forma, potatoes, nitain) would be on a pre-determined schedule. 1 nitain mission (giving an amount not sure how much or little) per day, and 1 potato mission every 1-2 weeks. Again, just like old alerts.  If we add the other variety (helmets, credits/endo) I think the helms should be ones that you can current get in the 'nightwave store', that way it doesn't suck as much if you miss out on it.  The credits would be bumped up to a minimum of 30k and endo bumped up to 600-800ish, to help newbies get their basic mods leveled a bit faster without being a 'new meta of farming endo'. And it's an appealing amount for vets, so they might be enticed to help new players out there for a decent reward.

4. I mentioned it a bit in #1, but random stuff like that DE can't be held responsible for, and shouldn't be expected to, and because of that shouldn't limit helpful creativity just because misfortune happened to someone and they missed an event.

 

 

I think the old alerts by themselves were a bad idea for those who don't have too much time to play. And I think nightwave is bad in it's own way because it has the 'I'm being forced to do this" mentality, the fear of losing out on something. Whether you believe it or not, it's a psychological and it's real, just look at WoW and 25 dailies cap for that.  

I think finding a balance for both is a decent medium, and the potential for things like dark sectors could also be brought up. Possibly having arbitration style (rotates every hour) unique missions that start you at level 40s-60s and work their way up, having you fight corrupted enemies or whatever for Simaris as a way for him to get research.

I am satisfied with your answers on 2 and 3. As for your "s*** happens" answers for 1 and 4, my scenario in question 4 was a comparative "smell test" for your proposal - a smell test Nightwave passed with flying colours, especially with the catch-up mechanic of Season 2. I consider your "s*** happens" answers as concession that it fails this test.

Now, you could come back and say "doesn't that apply to Nightwave as well if, say, someone would be indisposed for longer than a week?" Which would be true. I consider Nightwave to be a flawed step in the right direction. I posted earlier in this thread an idea I've cooked up with Tellakey of acts rewarding two different currencies for buying normal and seasonal items, allowing people to buy what they want, when they want. I think that idea has potential.

Which brings me to something I've touched on before in another thread back in Season 1; why Alerts as it was cannot coexist with Nightwave. Nightwave's stated objective was to eliminate the RNG snooze-and-lose. As my "smell test" scenario demonstrated, Nightwave has at least partially succeeded at this, while RNG snooze-and-lose would still be in effect, albeit to a lesser degree than old Alerts, in your proposal. Alerts would subvert the objective of Nightwave; as you conceded in your "s*** happens" answers, I would still be missing out on a whole bunch of things in the scenario. This is why they cannot coexist, so long as they draw from the same rewards pool, even if it's just Nitain and potatoes, and operate on different time cycles, i.e. Nightwave operates on a weekly cycle, while Alerts operate on much shorter cycles. Either one of these has to go in order for them to coexist.

I therefore encourage you to keep working on your proposal.

Edited July 13, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[Tinklzs]

8 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

I am satisfied with your answers on 2 and 3. As for your "s*** happens" answers for 1 and 4, my scenario in question 4 was a comparative "smell test" for your proposal - a smell test Nightwave passed with flying colours, especially with the catch-up mechanic of Season 2. I consider your "s*** happens" answers as concession that it fails this test.

Now, you could come back and say "doesn't that apply to Nightwave as well if, say, someone would be indisposed for longer than a week?" Which would be true. I consider Nightwave to be a flawed step in the right direction. I posted earlier in this thread an idea I've cooked up with Tellakey of acts rewarding two different currencies for buying normal and seasonal items, allowing people to buy what they want, when they want. I think that idea has potential.

Which brings me to something I've touched on before in another thread back in Season 1; why Alerts as it was cannot coexist with Nightwave. Nightwave's stated objective was to eliminate the RNG snooze-and-lose. As my "smell test" scenario demonstrated, Nightwave has at least partially succeeded at this, while RNG snooze-and-lose would still be in effect, albeit to a lesser degree than old Alerts, in your proposal. Alerts would subvert the objective of Nightwave; as you conceded in your "s*** happens" answers, I would still be missing out on a whole bunch of things in the scenario. This is why they cannot coexist, so long as they draw from the same rewards pool, even if it's just Nitain and potatoes, and operate on different time cycles, i.e. Nightwave operates on a weekly cycle, while Alerts operate on much shorter cycles. Either one of these has to go in order for them to coexist.

I therefore encourage you to keep working on your proposal.

Possibly shifting alerts to a more newbie focus then? Credits/Endo mainly (same quantities I mentioned before, 30k credits and 600 endo minimum) alongside some 'common' (but rare to them) resources, as an example 800 plastids, or 1000 polymer. etc.  Help new players out, without making a new farming meta for old players?

 

Alerts, kind of by definition, can't really be the same timeframe as nightwave. By original design they're supposed to be sporadic events.  If you increase the amount of time they're available too far, then it just makes everything a cluttered mess as you have 50+ alerts waiting for you, if you missed a few days. 

I think one of the biggest things psychologically that players didn't transition well from alerts to nightwave, was because the general amount of rewards that you couldget while playing, if you play every day a few hours a day (or more), was much higher with alerts than it is with nightwave. I know nightwave was to help with 'don't want to miss it' consequence of the alert system, but I can't shake the feeling of missing out on something by throwing away the alert system.

So, if you don't like the idea of having an alert system that fits the timeframe of invasions, what do you think of invasions, then?  Because the timeframe I proposed is roughly (depending on the popularity of that invasion) the timeframe invasions typically have.   Personally, I think they're a neat idea, but they need some polish. I think Fortuna bounties have made them a bit obsolete (since fortuna rotates between Fieldrons, DIs, and MMs every 2 hours). Leaving the only purpose for invasions is weapon part collecting and normal Mesa farming. 

 

[KnossosTNC]

55 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

Possibly shifting alerts to a more newbie focus then? Credits/Endo mainly (same quantities I mentioned before, 30k credits and 600 endo minimum) alongside some 'common' (but rare to them) resources, as an example 800 plastids, or 1000 polymer. etc.  Help new players out, without making a new farming meta for old players?

 

Alerts, kind of by definition, can't really be the same timeframe as nightwave. By original design they're supposed to be sporadic events.  If you increase the amount of time they're available too far, then it just makes everything a cluttered mess as you have 50+ alerts waiting for you, if you missed a few days. 

I think one of the biggest things psychologically that players didn't transition well from alerts to nightwave, was because the general amount of rewards that you couldget while playing, if you play every day a few hours a day (or more), was much higher with alerts than it is with nightwave. I know nightwave was to help with 'don't want to miss it' consequence of the alert system, but I can't shake the feeling of missing out on something by throwing away the alert system.

So, if you don't like the idea of having an alert system that fits the timeframe of invasions, what do you think of invasions, then?  Because the timeframe I proposed is roughly (depending on the popularity of that invasion) the timeframe invasions typically have.   Personally, I think they're a neat idea, but they need some polish. I think Fortuna bounties have made them a bit obsolete (since fortuna rotates between Fieldrons, DIs, and MMs every 2 hours). Leaving the only purpose for invasions is weapon part collecting and normal Mesa farming. 

 

Like I said, keep working on it. Same rewards pool and different time cycles - one of these has to go in order for Nightwave and Alerts to coexist.

And as for Invasions, I was actually thinking about that mere days into Season 1. I would love for DE to set their sights on Invasions next. It has many problems, chief among which is you eventually get to a point where there is no reason to even play them any more.

[Tinklzs]

9 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Like I said, keep working on it. Same rewards pool and different time cycles - one of these has to go in order for Nightwave and Alerts to coexist.

And as for Invasions, I was actually thinking about that mere days into Season 1. I would love for DE to set their sights on Invasions next. It has many problems, chief among which is you eventually get to a point where there is no reason to even play them any more.

I think I'm done on this topic.

You say that it's one or the other, however condemn time frame due to outside inconveniences and the other because of similar rewards.

The other reason is, even if I put more time and effort in trying to make it better, no guarentee that DE will even add it, let alone look at it.

So, it was a neat discussion - I still think that alerts/nightwave can co-exist, but DE needs to take that step, and they need to make invasions relevant again. Hopefully empyrean can make that a thing, with massive impactful spacebattles that add something not only to the lore but the star chart.

[KnossosTNC]

1 hour ago, Tinklzs said:

You say that it's one or the other, however condemn time frame due to outside inconveniences and the other because of similar rewards.

All I did was demonstrated one clear and objective superiority of Nightwave over Alerts; the elimination of RNG snooze-and-lose. I have also demonstrated how reimplementing Alerts without major changes to it would subvert that superiority. As you conceded, in my scenario, I would be missing a whole bunch of stuff I wouldn't have otherwise if it was just Nightwave alone. This is why they cannot coexist.

Anyway, yeah, good discussion.

Edited July 13, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[PY-R0]

17 hours ago, KroneVanguard said:

I have a question:

Today I started the game. There was the 150 jumps challenge. I went with Ember Prime to E Gate in single player, killed the 60 (if I remember) enemies pretty fast, than I stopped in the large area near the extraction point and started to jump until I completed the challenge. Is this fun for you? Is this better than an alert? Then I quitted. 😐

For me it's not even a video game, it's a joke. "What a yoke!" 😄

Well, if you played in a public squad you'd see that we usually don't use stairs, we Bullet Jump. I've done 2 Exterminate missions to fill other challenges and I filled the jumping one naturally, without thinking about it.

So you choose, if you want to stand in place and jump, or if you want to shoot some enemies while jumping around. Your call.

[Luciole77]

i agree...remove alerts was a big mistake!

[beercritch]

its another one of those topics.

 

I have to say I really dont get it. The old alert system I never used unless I happened to be online when a nitain mission popped up. Its was little more than a place holder for stuff i didnt want.

Nightwave has had some teething problems. I accept that. But you pick and chose your your missions to get the stuff you want and the stuff you need. But you dont have a 1 hr window 4 times a day for your nitain. you can be much more relaxed about it and pick what mission you fancy to get the specific requirements. You can make it as easy or as hard as you want. I think its a great introduction into the game. I usually end up doing all the missions in a week and I quite enjoy having a task to complete.

My lad is just starting out on his warframe journey and he has only known nightwave. He too thinks its great. He knows his limits and is nowhere near being in a position to do all the missions in a specific week, but he does what he can and earns a few feebies a few slots and credits to spend in the shop for auras, nitain and cosmetics.  He completely accepts and understands that unlike me he just does what he can and gets what he can out of it, and what he misses now will come around again in the future

Whats not to like????

[KroneVanguard]

2 hours ago, PY-R0 said:

Well, if you played in a public squad you'd see that we usually don't use stairs, we Bullet Jump. I've done 2 Exterminate missions to fill other challenges and I filled the jumping one naturally, without thinking about it.

So you choose, if you want to stand in place and jump, or if you want to shoot some enemies while jumping around. Your call.

I'm not a great fan of parkour in general. I'm from games like Gears of War for example or Dark Sector to stay on topic, where you go straight, shooting enemies or rolling around. Jumping is perfectly fine but I've never been 100% comfortable with it. I didn't make in time to complete this challenge in series 1 so I decided to do a mission just for it and solve the problem and then continue to play my own way as usual. I Think they added this challenge for players like me to exhort them in doing different maneuvers and explore the mobility of the Warframes. It's always the same: try this, try that... This is Nightwave and this is why I don't like it. 😐

[ADM-Ntek]

i liked Alerts for the quick action and yes the money. and i can already hear people say "for the money woot" play index play dark sector. my answer to that is no i don't like those so i wont. people say nightwave is so much better cause you can pick your rewards. took a look at the list my reaction was meh don't care about any of it. potatoes i have a sack full. nitane don't need i mean you only need 207 total. helmets snore have most of those already. the only thing i do care about is that damn Umbral forma the rest meh.