Proposed Rework | Rivens and Kuva

[Klokwerkaos]

15 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

So I sit in a fairly similar position to you on this point, I too have a lot of powerful rivens for various weapons, some meta some low tier whatever. I am happy grinding though for a bit of kuva here and there and also buying the occasional riven mod. That being said, my preference is to avoid DE having to keep nerfing certain riven mods into the ground simply due to the current system enabling power creep on already powerful gear. 

Getting rid of the RNG will allow DE to cap specific stats on a riven mod for individual weapons so players can either gain a little utility on already powerful weapons thanks to a riven mod, or they can boost the power of low tier weapons up to match the output on already powerful weapons if they enjoy the gameplay provided by a lower tier weapon (once it is punching at the same DPS to already powerful high tier ones).

i'm not sure this is practical for a few reasons... gimmick weapons will always break this kind of mold, since utility massively affects flat dps in some instances.  as we all know, paper dps is fundamentally useless otherwise everyone would use the euphona prime and tomb finger.

getting everything even or "balanced" isn't necessarily ideal.  getting everything viable and giving each weapon a fun reason to use, is far more practical, easier to do, and better for the health of the game.

frankly though, it's actually good some stuff gets nerfed with rivens for the economy, for new players, and for old players.

for the economy because it keeps people engaged, for new players because if gives them more opportunity, and for old players because it causes us to rethink and redo strategies every six months or so, if we care about what top meta is, which you really don't have to because even a nerf to a beast weapon means very little except in rare cases like the kohm where it depends on 1 stat to be at a minimum viability.

otherwise, we get bored using the same gear and never engaging any new possibilities and eventually just quit for six months to a year to come back and see what's new, and if that's functionally nothing,  it means we're gone in a week or less once we built all the stuff we missed and leveled it.

[WoodedSkate89]

On 2019-07-11 at 4:23 PM, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

0 replies, 5h. It really makes me think about what the hell this community prioritizes, no jokes.

No it's just that this subject has been argued to death already, and the exact same points have been made every time.

DE have already said why they don't wanna do any of these suggestions.

The fact that you can get these godly, insane, unfair rivens makes the grind fair.

[WoodedSkate89]

Obviously everyone wants godly rivens more. But if you think about it in the longterm. The market would be in shambles.

It's the economics supply and price rules. As the supply of a product goes up, the price will go down as there will be more people offering that product and constantly trying to outdo eachother. Rivens that used to cost 1.5k plat could go down considerably.

Plus if everyone has godly damage, multishot, critical chance or critical damage rivens there would be a lot more nerfs

[Jax_Cavalera]

8 hours ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Obviously everyone wants godly rivens more. But if you think about it in the longterm. The market would be in shambles.

It's the economics supply and price rules. As the supply of a product goes up, the price will go down as there will be more people offering that product and constantly trying to outdo eachother. Rivens that used to cost 1.5k plat could go down considerably.

Plus if everyone has godly damage, multishot, critical chance or critical damage rivens there would be a lot more nerfs

I'm not sure that you are fully across what this post is about. One of the core priorities is to prevent power creep derived from riven mods (something we currently have happening) Doing that will remove the need for DE to constantly nerf. Personally I'm not comfortable with someone being able to charge 1.5k plat for a mod in a free to play game. That's essentiall a single mod selling for about 75AUD.

The fact that this stuff is happening should be ringing alarm bells to DE that the system is terribly broken when a single mod is selling for more than the cost of a lot of AAA games on the market. Imagine buying an entire game and then having half the content removed from it post sale.

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

i'm not sure this is practical for a few reasons... gimmick weapons will always break this kind of mold, since utility massively affects flat dps in some instances.  as we all know, paper dps is fundamentally useless otherwise everyone would use the euphona prime and tomb finger.

For sure, not every player will enjoy or have a good affinity with a weapon's suited playing style, being able to tweak how that weapon works with utility stats costs a mod slot on the weapon and that results in reduction of actual damage modifications, so depending on the stats a player would select for that riven mod, it will always have the potential to reach the same DPS in a different way.  If DE notice certain utility on a given weapon is selected quite a lot due to it driving some unforseen power creep, they can simply reduce the max that particular stat combination yields on that specific problem riven mod. (something that with an RNG based system is difficult / impossible to do)

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

frankly though, it's actually good some stuff gets nerfed with rivens for the economy, for new players, and for old players.

I agree that change and a dynamic economy can be good drivers of player retention if done correctly, and believe that directing this towards players who have just spent a sizable wad of cash on your game to purchase said riven mods, is likely to result in more player departures than it retains, biting the hand that feeds would be a suitable way to describe it.

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

otherwise, we get bored using the same gear and never engaging any new possibilities and eventually just quit for six months to a year to come back and see what's new, and if that's functionally nothing,  it means we're gone in a week or less once we built all the stuff we missed and leveled it.

This is a really good point you raise, I have been making lots of posts over the years with ideas on how DE can better deal with this specific problem. Currently their primary method of addressing it is to simply release new One-Off content like that dog days thing, which we played to get our rewards then "eh.. glad that's over" once we got them.

They need to focus on creating more systems in game that allow players to create new content for other players to enjoy. I'm just not sure that riven mods are the right platform to help drive a solution to that problem.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

7 hours ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

The fact that you can get these godly, insane, unfair rivens makes the grind fair.

That is a VERY simple view of the subject. 

More power = more farm, right? 

WHEN YOU NEED IT. You don't need rivens for end-game content (and endurance runs are not end-game content), their prices are not fair, the farm involved is not fair.

[Test-995]

9 hours ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Obviously everyone wants godly rivens more. But if you think about it in the longterm. The market would be in shambles.

It's the economics supply and price rules. As the supply of a product goes up, the price will go down as there will be more people offering that product and constantly trying to outdo eachother. Rivens that used to cost 1.5k plat could go down considerably.

Plus if everyone has godly damage, multishot, critical chance or critical damage rivens there would be a lot more nerfs

So Riven price Broke? 

Huh, that's just a good thing for us commoners, and it doesn't bring more nerfs, because they are already doing it.

[WoodedSkate89]

4 hours ago, Test-995 said:

So Riven price Broke? 

Huh, that's just a good thing for us commoners, and it doesn't bring more nerfs, because they are already doing it.

If everyone has access to these godly rivens, they're gonna be nerfed.

If most MR15+ players had some damage, multishot riven. It would be OP

[WoodedSkate89]

7 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

That is a VERY simple view of the subject. 

More power = more farm, right? 

WHEN YOU NEED IT. You don't need rivens for end-game content (and endurance runs are not end-game content), their prices are not fair, the farm involved is not fair.

I actually agree. But this subject has been argued to death and it seems very unlikely this will change.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I think rivens are a pain to balance the game with, in their current implementation. They do not achieve the goal of making weak weapons contenders with top tier weapons.

They DO achieve the goal of giving vets something "worth" doing, if they want to min/max.
They DO achieve the goal of driving plat sales (at least some, while others just trade for plat, the plat had to be bought at some point.)
They are arguably Warframe's version of a loot box, except you can't buy them directly from DE with cash, rolling them costs an in-game currency rather than premium, and those 2 factors are what keeps them both safe and combined with the potential power they grant, on the edge of stupid.

Rivens should be custom built by DE, several versions of selections of stats, designed for each weapon, specifically to counter the weaknesses or boost a stat that is needed to make that weapon relevant in higher tier content, competitive with other top tier weapons. They can still have variable stats in a range, that you roll to improve or change the version of the mod that you got. This would more accurately fulfill the design goal of Rivens, IMO. (It would be easier to balance, too, since they'd know the combinations of potential mods, and the range they can have... thus the highest potential stats a Riven can have, thus the highest potential damage a weapon can have... If they want to keep using the disposition system, they can manually set the 5 levels of the stats at each disposition ahead of time, and modify any of those levels independently.)

 

[str4dlin]

En 11/7/2019 a las 18:30, (XB1)dude1286 dijo:

The community no longer prioritizes late game systems because the players that about such things are mostly gone playing other games. The current community only wants to nerf equipment and make things easier and quicker to obtain, not have challenging and rewarding content.

OT, any change to Rivens that give players more control would be welcome, they are the closest thing to end game rewards that we have.

The closest opinion of what I am thinking about the actual forum status. Really it is sad. I ve posted suggestions time ago like names in loadouts, that were implemented. And some others.. Everything I post now is discussed wthout arguments just by people that have not idea what they are saying and going out of the topic just to "show how clever they are". I ve found the real contributive community in this forum has gone or is hidden under the floor. And I find it normal because I ve passed some headaches trying to discuss with "walls" until the point I negate to myself post something or try to contribute..

Sad history really. What it was - what it is now. Sad really sad history.

[Klokwerkaos]

19 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

I'm not sure that you are fully across what this post is about. One of the core priorities is to prevent power creep derived from riven mods (something we currently have happening) Doing that will remove the need for DE to constantly nerf. Personally I'm not comfortable with someone being able to charge 1.5k plat for a mod in a free to play game. That's essentiall a single mod selling for about 75AUD.

The fact that this stuff is happening should be ringing alarm bells to DE that the system is terribly broken when a single mod is selling for more than the cost of a lot of AAA games on the market. Imagine buying an entire game and then having half the content removed from it post sale.

For sure, not every player will enjoy or have a good affinity with a weapon's suited playing style, being able to tweak how that weapon works with utility stats costs a mod slot on the weapon and that results in reduction of actual damage modifications, so depending on the stats a player would select for that riven mod, it will always have the potential to reach the same DPS in a different way.  If DE notice certain utility on a given weapon is selected quite a lot due to it driving some unforseen power creep, they can simply reduce the max that particular stat combination yields on that specific problem riven mod. (something that with an RNG based system is difficult / impossible to do)

I agree that change and a dynamic economy can be good drivers of player retention if done correctly, and believe that directing this towards players who have just spent a sizable wad of cash on your game to purchase said riven mods, is likely to result in more player departures than it retains, biting the hand that feeds would be a suitable way to describe it.

This is a really good point you raise, I have been making lots of posts over the years with ideas on how DE can better deal with this specific problem. Currently their primary method of addressing it is to simply release new One-Off content like that dog days thing, which we played to get our rewards then "eh.. glad that's over" once we got them.

They need to focus on creating more systems in game that allow players to create new content for other players to enjoy. I'm just not sure that riven mods are the right platform to help drive a solution to that problem.

I have some proposed solutions.  mostly in the nature of centering raids around the notion of enemies having appropriate responses to our abilities and high gear levels other than instant death.

that would create a challenging content that wouldn't drastically alter the base game economy, nor fundamentally destroy the flow of the base game, but would provide challenge to higher tier players and be aspirational content that de is missing.  then you slap some unique rewards pools that don't affect the base game.  this creates a new experience on a different tier, gate it properly and the end.

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-08-18 at 11:38 PM, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Rivens should be custom built by DE, several versions of selections of stats, designed for each weapon, specifically to counter the weaknesses or boost a stat that is needed to make that weapon relevant in higher tier content, competitive with other top tier weapons. They can still have variable stats in a range, that you roll to improve or change the version of the mod that you got. This would more accurately fulfill the design goal of Rivens, IMO. (It would be easier to balance, too, since they'd know the combinations of potential mods, and the range they can have... thus the highest potential stats a Riven can have, thus the highest potential damage a weapon can have... If they want to keep using the disposition system, they can manually set the 5 levels of the stats at each disposition ahead of time, and modify any of those levels independently.)

I really like the idea of players being able to choose their own stat combinations since it feels more like "anything is possible". That being said, if need be I'd settle for a system where

• A player unveils the riven mod and is shown a list of stat combination presets to choose from (as set out and balanced  by DE)
• If the player wants to change their stat combo preset, they pay the kuva fee (same as current costs when re-rolling, probably same screen almost) they select a new stat combo preset and apply it

Done just like that.

Players can still transmute riven mods etc.

With a system like this, it simplifies the whole process a lot further. DE are unlikely to find balancing issues with stat combo presets they designed. By having them as fixed stat combos and not a min/max RNG, it helps cut down on the kuva grind and emphasises the main selling point to any riven mod is the weapon it is for.

The real challenge with all this would be how to deal with already existing riven mods out in the wild? The only way I can think of that going down would be where all riven mods are unequipped off their weapons and when a player goes to add the unequipped riven mod, they get to choose the initial stat combo preset.

 

On 2019-08-19 at 12:47 AM, str4dlin said:

Everything I post now is discussed wthout arguments just by people that have not idea what they are saying and going out of the topic just to "show how clever they are". I ve found the real contributive community in this forum has gone or is hidden under the floor.

All we can do is try our best right, as can be seen in a thread like this one, there are a lot of people still out there that contribute and want to see the game continue to grow and improve.

 

21 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I have some proposed solutions.  mostly in the nature of centering raids around the notion of enemies having appropriate responses to our abilities and high gear levels other than instant death.

that would create a challenging content that wouldn't drastically alter the base game economy, nor fundamentally destroy the flow of the base game, but would provide challenge to higher tier players and be aspirational content that de is missing.  then you slap some unique rewards pools that don't affect the base game.  this creates a new experience on a different tier, gate it properly and the end.

That would be really cool to see, right now I think it's pretty cheap that enemies don't actually combat a warframe ability, they either suffer at the hands of it, or they completely bypass it / disable it. I picture things like in DBZ where they have those power beam struggles the whole ying/yang so a water type ability / weapon is pushed back by a fire or heat type ability and you need to re-cast to keep a "power meter": up and overcome the enemy.. it could work using a pulse system so you have to get the right timing etc to counter their outputs... anyway getting a bit off topic but it's a great concept you raise for sure.

Even if we had a system like described in the Opening Post or at the top of this specific post, I believe the riven mods would still be a valuable commodity to players wanting to use specific weapons.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Small bump => I have reworked and updated the Opening Post with new artwork that helps to demonstrate the feedback on how the riven / kuva system can be improved.