Last post wins

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Unfortunately I have played DMC yet but I herd its similar to Bayonetta. The combat warframe had with melee I loves obviously not the side combos but if fixed up right it would of been great.

Bayonetta is effectively what DMC would have become in a different timeline. Bayo was directed by Hideki Kamiya, who directed the first DMC game, but not the sequels, which with the exception of most of 2 and the Reboot, were handled by Hideaki Itsuno. Kamiya has gone on record saying that Bayonetta is how he would have developed and evolved DMC going forward, had Capcom not gone behind his back and started developing DMC2 without his knowledge.

So, Bayonetta has a lot of similarities, but a lot of core differences. So the fundamentals are the same but how they wind up manifesting can be dramatically different. It's pretty hard to put into words. Needless to say, there's a reason people get very, uh... passionate about the comparison. It's like comparing Marvel to DC.

[xombob89]

On 2020-12-04 at 12:06 PM, Yrkul said:

Hello, little mouse...

Oh, umh... 

[Loza03]

Damnit I spent too much time mulling over a post complaining it'd been over 24 hours since the last one.

[Yrkul]

7 hours ago, xombob89 said:

Oh, umh... 

Damn you, Inaros! I'll get you! Next time!

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

1 hour ago, Yrkul said:

Damn you, Inaros! I'll get you! Next time!

Exit, Sandman?

[vanaukas]

Me viewing all those old threads unlocked waiting for their Nekros:

[DeMonkey]

On 2020-12-04 at 3:33 AM, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

Did I just read dark souls was ..... button mashing......?

Yes, whilst also stating a preference for games like Bayonetta which is... not button mashing, apparently.

I'm so glad I'm not human, I can't be embarrassed by such comments.

[xombob89]

Me and my clanmates watching another update wasted on archwings, railjack and mechs

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Yes, whilst also stating a preference for games like Bayonetta which is... not button mashing, apparently.

I'm so glad I'm not human, I can't be embarrassed by such comments.

Interestingly, Bayonetta, despite being developed at the same time as Demon Souls and thus being incredibly unlikely to have been influenced by it, almost feels like it takes cues from the sub-genre souls created and puts a character action spin on it, not dissimilar to how Vanquish would (intentionally) do something similar for Cover Shooters a year later.

It's got a light/heavy attack system, focuses more on rolling and punishing than traditional action games and features at least somewhat Gothic setting in Vigrid, albeit nowhere less bleak in order to suit the tone Bayo goes for.

Interesting case of video game co-evolution.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

12 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Yes, whilst also stating a preference for games like Bayonetta which is... not button mashing, apparently.

I'm so glad I'm not human, I can't be embarrassed by such comments.

i gave up my humanity ages ago im glad i dont identify with lesser beings 

[Yrkul]

4 hours ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

i gave up my humanity ages ago im glad i dont identify with lesser beings 

Nothing wrong with a bit of misanthropy...

And speaking of misanthropy, I'm binging on Jake Munro right now. :D

 

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

i gave up my humanity ages ago im glad i dont identify with lesser beings 

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-12-04 at 2:15 PM, Loza03 said:

Bayonetta is effectively what DMC would have become in a different timeline. Bayo was directed by Hideki Kamiya, who directed the first DMC game, but not the sequels, which with the exception of most of 2 and the Reboot, were handled by Hideaki Itsuno. Kamiya has gone on record saying that Bayonetta is how he would have developed and evolved DMC going forward, had Capcom not gone behind his back and started developing DMC2 without his knowledge.

So, Bayonetta has a lot of similarities, but a lot of core differences. So the fundamentals are the same but how they wind up manifesting can be dramatically different. It's pretty hard to put into words. Needless to say, there's a reason people get very, uh... passionate about the comparison. It's like comparing Marvel to DC.

The developers just need to start making more game like that I know platinum Games has something in the works, give bloody dark souls a damn brake now it`s been 8 years now. Bring Ninja Gaiden and Metal Gear: Rising Revengance back, games like those are fun as heck.

[Yrkul]

Insomnia hit again for the third night in a row, and I'm now in sleep deprived ferret mode. The world is moving in slow motion, and everything is a bit funny by default. I'm going to crash at some point, and I can't wait. I'm too jittery to even do my dishes. But at least I got my shopping done before too many people showed up at the store.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

give bloody dark souls a damn brake now it`s been 8 years now. Bring Metal Gear: Rising Revengance back,

You are, without a doubt, one of the silliest people on the forum. Give Dark Souls a break, give us more Metal Gear?

"Dark Souls is just Button Mashing" says someone requesting more Revengeance? 

You are an unbelievable spanner. If any game series should take a break of the ones here, it's the Metal Gear franchise, having released so many games it's hard to tell which is an original and which is a remake, over the course of 31 years, whilst Dark Souls as a series has released 4 games over 9 years (2009-2018).

Do you even think about anything that you post?

Edited December 7, 2020 by DeMonkey

[Loza03]

52 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You are, without a doubt, one of the silliest people on the forum. Give Dark Souls a break, give us more Metal Gear?

"Dark Souls is just Button Mashing" says someone requesting more Revengeance? 

You are an unbelievable spanner. If any game series should take a break of the ones here, it's the Metal Gear franchise, having released so many games it's hard to tell which is an original and which is a remake, over the course of 31 years, whilst Dark Souls as a series has released 4 games over 9 years (2009-2018).

Do you even think about anything that you post?

Rising was a very different game to the normal metal gear series, so asking for more revengance specifically is not a silly question.

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Rising was a very different game to the normal metal gear series, so asking for more revengance specifically is not a silly question.

But asserting that Fromsoft should give Dark Souls a break, a series that has 4 games total and hasn't had a new release in 4 years is incredibly silly.

Suggesting that company A giving their game series a break (when a new game hasn't been developed in 4 years) will cause unrelated company B to increase production is incredibly silly.

Are Fromsoft milking the franchise and somehow denying other developers the ability to create their own hack and slash games? Did I miss that memo?

Fast paced hack and slash games are still being made, soulslikes are even compatible with them, as they have stated that they enjoy Darksiders, where the gameplay of the third game is very similar to that of a souls game whilst apparently still retaining the not-button mashing gameplay that they claim to like. Developers will make whatever they want to make, it doesn't have to align with what we want them to make.

This is absolute thoughtless drivel.

Edited December 7, 2020 by DeMonkey

[Aldain]

As an Armored Core fan, I can assert that they are a bit too drunk on the Dark (Souls) side.

But my situation is a bit more niche.

Spoiler

Come on Fromsoft, remember that you have another franchise already, it has been an entire console generation with no Armored Core game.

 

[Loza03]

12 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

But asserting that Fromsoft should give Dark Souls a break, a series that has 4 games total and hasn't had a new release in 4 years is incredibly silly.

Suggesting that company A giving their game series a break (when a new game hasn't been developed in 4 years) will cause unrelated company B to increase production is incredibly silly.

Are Fromsoft milking the franchise and somehow denying other developers the ability to create their own hack and slash games? Did I miss that memo?

Fast paced hack and slash games are still being made, soulslikes are even compatible with them, as they have stated that they enjoy Darksiders, where the gameplay of the third game is very similar to that of a souls game whilst apparently still retaining the not-button mashing gameplay that they claim to like. Developers will make whatever they want to make, it doesn't have to align with what we want them to make.

This is absolute thoughtless drivel.

I took it as them directing it towards the gaming landscape as a whole. DMC-style action games (also called Character Action) have always been fairly light on the ground, but even existing franchises in it have looked more towards the slower-paced side of things. Consider God of War or Darksiders taking steps away from their character action roots, if not explicitly towards soulslike (GoW takes more cues from Last of Us it seems), which means stepping away from the elements that they enjoy. Character action is still comparitively rare - Devil May Cry 5 is the only big release that I can think of recently, with Bayo 3 on the horizon... somewhere?

 

The idea that Soulslike is button-mashing is definitely nonsense though. Both are perfectly valid types of action game. But there's really nothing wrong with saying "I wish that more games in this sub-genre were being made".

[Aldain]

25 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

But there's really nothing wrong with saying "I wish that more games in this sub-genre were being made".

-coughmechgamescough-

...Sorry, the cold weather finally got here and I've got a bit of a cold.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Darksiders taking steps away from their character action roots

On the other hand I personally found Darksiders 3 to be noticeably more action oriented than, say, Darksiders 1, not less than. Darksiders 1, due to it's age, is rather clunky. Darksiders 3 by comparison is quite fluid, which makes the action more fluid and enjoyable.

I guess I need you to clarify where the line is that determines whether a game is "character action" or just "action" enough, and why that can't work alongside souls-like gameplay.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

But there's really nothing wrong with saying "I wish that more games in this sub-genre were being made".

With that, no. With what was actually said, yes.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I guess I need you to clarify where the line is that determines whether a game is "character action" or just "action" enough, and why that can't work alongside souls-like gameplay.

My personal (unprompted) definition is basically games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta, games focused on one fighting style (well technically several in recent DMC games) and using the system in a fashion with mechanics that wouldn't be out of place in a fighting game (long combos, juggling an enemy for a solid minute, etc.), Metal Gear Rising is similar to this but more grounded and focused on precision cuts and well timed guarding, but has several of the similar traits, especially in boss design. There's also this "weightlessness" to the characters, being able to cancel out of almost anything into almost anything else.

The reason why this clashes with Souls-like is mostly due to two things, one being most Souls-like games (with the exception of maybe Sekiro) are very focused on the player being very heavy and slow, usually with a very limited moveset and have "evade or die" design due to the increased frailty of the player. Add in Souls-like games having a small margin for error in fights (due to that frailty) and you have another clash with all but usually the hardest or "bragging rights" difficulty of Character action games, most of the time you can take a few hits.

Standard action titles run a much wider gamut, but character action is usually more narrow due to the specifics of the control and core design, kind of like the difference between an action platformer and a Metroidvania (or ugh, Search Action as they call them now, hate that term). Souls-like would actually be a sub-genre of action technically, but the traits of Souls-like games tend to clash with other action titles, hence why there's a sub-genre. My personal understanding of sub-genres is when something is unique enough to have a specific design philosophy that is at odds with more common examples in the core genre it stems from, of course I'm just rambling now, pay me no heed.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

On the other hand I personally found Darksiders 3 to be noticeably more action oriented than, say, Darksiders 1, not less than. Darksiders 1, due to it's age, is rather clunky. Darksiders 3 by comparison is quite fluid, which makes the action more fluid and enjoyable.

I guess I need you to clarify where the line is that determines whether a game is "character action" or just "action" enough, and why that can't work alongside souls-like gameplay.

The line is no doubt fuzzy due to the nature of sub-genres (Character Action itself evolved from Horror after all) to the point where the argument has been made there should be no distinction (albeit, that was in regards to criticism in a 'You can't compare them' sense that's all-too-familiar around here), but I would argue that's why it's a sub-genres. Like how Resident Evil 4 and Vanquish are third person shooters - directed by the same person, in fact - but you'd be hard pressed to suggest they touch on the same gameplay appeal. But when you get down to brass tacks there's not mechanically a vast amount of difference. Vanquish has the boost, Rezzy 4 has tank controls but they share a lot of the same blood as it were. Same deal for 'character action' and 'Soulslike'

Generally speaking, character action games tend to try have the player as leading and defining the flow of combat. DMC gives players a lot of ways to keep individual enemies permanently stunned and a lot of its higher-end gameplay puts emphasis on doing exactly that in the most outlandish ways possible. Bayonetta has dodging and using Witch Time on large, slow enemies you can cartwheel circles around whilst keeping up a constant offence and Revengence's parry system rewards you for charging headfirst into an enemy's attack. Soulslike tends to have a rhythm that the enemy sets. Sometimes quite literally. This comes from the idea that it's meant to inspire a 'struggle' rather than just pure empowerment. The enemy sets the pace of the battle and much of a Soulslike is getting in tune with that pace. So in that respect, there's a degree of mutual exclusivity because what they're meant to evoke run somewhat counter to each other.

[Aldain]

...I think I finally blew a gasket and snapped at somebody.

Kind of out of character for me, but god damn does it feel good to release a bit of pressure from the valves.

[Yrkul]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

...I think I finally blew a gasket and snapped at somebody.

Kind of out of character for me, but god damn does it feel good to release a bit of pressure from the valves.

I can recommend peacefully protesting...

/straightface