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Twistedsparkle

The zhuge prime

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Making the explosive bolts secondary fire sounds like a good idea. Some people actually like to play solo, take their time and use stealth.

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Sigh... I can respond to grandiose claims and fake news without having to give an opinion on certain matters.

It's neither a "grandiose claim" or "fake news". It's just someone else's opinion which you don't like. And both of us are trying to prove our opinion is better than the other.

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Just now, Marvelous_A said:

It's neither a "grandiose claim" or "fake news". It's just someone else's opinion which you don't like. And both of us are trying to prove our opinion is better than the other.

 

9 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

now we are getting a primed grenade launcher

Fake news.

9 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

no one asked for

Grandiose claim.

9 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

unacceptable

Bit of both.

I'm not trying to convince you my opinion is better, I'm trying to convince you to actually express your opinion as your opinion. You did not.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

There we go. We've gone from grand statements and speaking for the community to personal preference. Much better.

See above ^.

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Maybe DE wanted something unique with this crossbow. Maybe they didn't have time to make the explosives an alternate fire due to tennocon. The weapon has a decreased ammo max with bolts that can potentially kill you, with a reload passive. All these factors force you to play a certain way. When using a crossbow you don't expect it to potentially kill you. For a launcher yeah it makes sense, but a crossbow?! An alternate fire would easily fix this. 

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6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

Fake news.

Grandiose claim.

Bit of both.

I'm not trying to convince you my opinion is better, I'm trying to convince you to actually express your opinion as your opinion. You did not.

See above ^.

And at the end of they day self-damaging on Zhuge Prime still sucks and is unwanted. 

11e8zh.jpg

If you didn't like this opinion you might as well just say you are wrong instead of acting high and lecturing somebody else how to use forum and write reply in your way.

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Just now, Marvelous_A said:

If you didn't like this opinion you might as well just say you are wrong

What sort of logic is that?

1 minute ago, Marvelous_A said:

lecturing somebody else how to use forum in your way.

Expecting someone to express their opinion as their opinion isn't "how to use the forum my way", it's just common decency.

"I find the current state of the Zhuge Prime to be unacceptable, as applying the explosion to an alt fire hurts absolutely no one" is a fine comment.

"The current state of the Zhuge Prime is unacceptable, no one wanted it like this" makes you sound pretentious.

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49 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

What sort of logic is that?

Expecting someone to express their opinion as their opinion isn't "how to use the forum my way", it's just common decency.

"I find the current state of the Zhuge Prime to be unacceptable, as applying the explosion to an alt fire hurts absolutely no one" is a fine comment.

"The current state of the Zhuge Prime is unacceptable, no one wanted it like this" makes you sound pretentious.

Whatever you like. Instead of saying how it not sucks it seems you are more interested on how a person should write an academic essay on a forum.

And I'm focusing more on how I despise this whatever abomination they call it a crossbow. And I don't care if it looks a fine comment to someone who's not me.

I mean like when you say "hey you just can't speak like you are the whole community", while you are not wrong it's a way to express opinion nonetheless. 

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12 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Instead of saying how it not sucks it seems you are more interested on how a person should write an academic essay on a forum.

Absolutely, I'm very invested in people being able to present their opinions in a constructive manner.

13 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

And I don't care if it looks a fine comment to someone who's not me.

You should, since last I checked every single member of the development team isn't you.

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5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Absolutely, I'm very invested in people being able to present their opinions in a constructive manner.

You should, since last I checked every single member of the development team isn't you.

You just dedicated your time on someone who isn't according to you.

But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Anyway, I'm just gonna sit here and wait for the change. Last time it took a year for DE to realize blowing yourself up sucks even for grenade launcher and made the change, I think it will probably take more time for them to make a change on a prime crossbow.

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I don't think I've enjoyed a weapon as much ever in my Warframe life. It even works great with Heavy Caliber because any missed shots aren't completely wasted.

If you don't want to die out of self damage all you need to do is not aim to a close space where there's no enemies, and even then you can use Melee.

This crossbow is great, and I hope DE does NOT change it. It would be a shame.

EDIT: Though I must ask, why not remove the self damage aspect if people don't enjoy it and "lore it up" as the explosion being comprised out of Void energy? 👀

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So i was VERY looking forward to the Zhuge Prime exploding after a few milliseconds upon hitting. I was looking at the weaker stats compared to standard Zhuge and i was like "Ok well yeah, some sacrifices have to be made if you wanna give this extra punch in form of explosions."

But there's one sad truth:

unknown.png

Looking at this here, you probably expecting 10% less damage on a hit compared to Zhuge right? Except, the Prime has probably a part of it's damage added as an explosion which ends up having more damage than Zhuge in the end. Well, wrong.

Both weapons unmodded to the test, this is Zhuge (100 base dmg):

Spoiler

unknown.png?width=267&height=473

And this is Zhuge Prime (90 base dmg):

Spoiler

unknown.png

and this is Zhuge Prime with the explosion: 

Spoiler

unknown.png

 

Damage seems split? Why? Maybe this is an error and belongs to the bug report? I don't know but i feel the need to announce it any way.

These are tonkors stats, notice how it shows that the impact of the grenade deals 75 puncture but the explosion itself is 650:

unknown.png

Meanwhile Zhuge Prime's stats are completely misleading, implying that each shot deals as much impact, puncture and slash:

unknown.png

I dearly hope that this is an error. Mistakes happen. But if it's not, then i'd really like to know what the mindset was behind giving a barely used primary rifle a prime version (which is usually an upgrade over the standard in every case) that seems worse or sidegrade at best, compared to the standard. The Zhuge not only does more damage, but it also doesn't kill yourself since the Prime comes with self damage. And it also requires 4 less mastery ranks. Very disappointed. I was more expecting something like 90 damage + (whatever% AoE damage).

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If you have played this game for long, you will know this is intended. They will hopefully only change it to tonkor-type as you mentioned after many players' complained.

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1 minute ago, kyori said:

If you have played this game for long, you will know this is intended. They will hopefully only change it to tonkor-type as you mentioned after many players' complained.

Still doesn't fix it being arguably worse than Zhuge.

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My zhuge prime finished building today and after putting a catalyst in it i could put in enough mods so that only one modslot is left which means excluding a rivenmod which i do not have a majority of the zhuge primes potential has already been tapped... and i found it struggling to kill tusk enemies on the plains which is almost unheard of for decent almost fully modded primed primary weapons to do, So i cant help but see this as some kind of bug.

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Il y a 1 heure, IceColdHawk a dit :

Still doesn't fix it being arguably worse than Zhuge.

Hopefully they'll fix it like the Spira Prime (remember the original version? It had less dps than the standard for no gain at all). 

Unless it's a bug. I don't think they would intentionally release a prime worse than its regular variant... 

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Just now, Autongnosis said:

Hopefully they'll fix it like the Spira Prime (remember the original version? It had less dps than the standard for no gain at all). 

Unless it's a bug. I don't think they would intentionally release a prime worse than its regular variant... 

I really want to agree with this but they released sicarus prime worse then the sicarus and it took them a couple of years to fix that one still atleast it did get fixed eventualy so hopefully Zhuge prime gets the treatment is deserves.

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il y a 26 minutes, ErinaAlda a dit :

I really want to agree with this but they released sicarus prime worse then the sicarus and it took them a couple of years to fix that one still atleast it did get fixed eventualy so hopefully Zhuge prime gets the treatment is deserves.

Well no technically the sicarus prime was better than the sicarus, it was just the sicarus itself sucked donkey balls and the prime was very marginally better... 

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7 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

There is a very good reason for this!

It's an arguably terrible reason.

Quote

This is a big problem, and Impact and Puncture need more ultraviolence too or we need to make all weapons Slash weapons.

Sort of agreed. Slash needs to NOT arbitrarily ignore armor to inflict bleed procs. Bleed should only come into play once armor has been depleted and the player is doing damage directly to health.

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Because Slash is meta.

It's meta for a bad reason: It's too good in comparison to Puncture and Impact and that's due to arbitrary mechanics. Slash needs to be nerfed / tweaked so that it plays well with other damage types.

Quote

DE as a developer embraces meta shaped by players, not the other way around.

In my opinion, that's a really terrible way to balance a game.

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I don't understand why so many people are arguing against removing the self damage. If this weapon was good enough to compete with other top tier primed weapons i would be totally down with it killing you i like weapons with strengths and weaknesses thats why im ok with the tigris doing the most damage, it has its obvious drawbacks (that are still nowhere near as bad as delayed self damage explosions.) 

As it stands this is a side grade to a mediocre weapon at best that now requires you to not move forward while killing enemies which lowers both the speed you can kill enemies and how fast you can progress through the level because the explosion is delayed which is a big part of warframe, always moving forward and killing enemies. Every crossbow in the game is already on the lower side of dps for primarys combined with having to deal with projectile speed making it harder to land shots and now the one that seems like it might almost have comparable damage (still doesn't really) to other powerful primary weapons... it kills you. They have all the drawbacks without having positive trade offs to make them worth using over other weapons like the tigris or almost any other prime rifle/bow.

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Waaaait so the damage of the Zhuge Prime is split between the base impact of the arrow and the delayed explosion? 

So the explosion isn't even an added "bonus" it's required to get the base damage out of your crossbow? 

 

I keep thinking it's not possible but it keeps getting worse and worse..... in fact it reminds me of a robot chicken sketch 

"I have altered the Zhuge, pray I do not alter it any further" 

Spoiler

 

We've reached clown shoes people, clown shoes..... Is there a crying emote because I loved the Zhuge so much and I was so looking forward to the Zhuge Prime. Didn't care about Wuking, the Nikandi(?), it was just "OMG! Zhuge Prime!!!!" and now it's "Oh.... emm..... gee......... zhuge prime......" with a full on Excalibur face.

 

Edit:

Whelp instead of eating breakfast I doodled this Excalibur with an Excalibur face looking at the Zhuge Prime along with a bonus derpy Kavat. Look at the Foundry, the poor thing is so confused. 

Excalizhuge.jpg

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Wow that is so much worse than i originally even thought it was... so this is a downgrade to an already bad/mediocre weapon that also is set up perfectly to kill you if you move forward while shooting. i think they should change it so the explosion heals you instead of hurting you if you can be within range while it damages an enemy, with the dps it can do it still wouldn't be op it would be slightly worse than the furis with the life steal mod and still nobody uses that thing lol.

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DE, It would be nice if the Zhuge prime had different fire mods,a non-explosive silent mod for stealth and the explosive one (Keep the self-damage and buff the damage it deals, that seems pretty weak)

Maybe make it half the reload time to switch, like you are changing the type of bolts. 

 

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Part of the problem with the damage being weak, is that the explosive damage apparently isn't "bonus" it's factored into the total damage of the weapons. So from what I've heard instead of hitting for 90 damage with the projectile and then whatever the explosion does it's hitting for more like 45 damage with the projectile and then the other 45 comes from the explosion. 

So if you're using punchthrough to increase your effective DPS you're actually cutting your effective DPS in half because the explosion is happening somewhere else and that's half your weapons damage.

They just changed too many mechanics on the Zhuge Prime. 

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The ips balanced in favor of more slash, more slash dmg means more slash procs, and slash procs mean more true dmg. From what i've tested, initial hit deals ~60% total dmg, and delayed explosive deals ~40% total dmg. The dmg inflicted is in a 3m aoe dealing damage of its own status and crit chance. Which effectively double dips into overall dmg potential. I don't 100% agree on dmg splitting, but i can understand why it would be somewhat necessary. 

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7 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

It's an arguably terrible reason.

Well I was joking regarding the importance of a reason that was basically just "aesthetics of giblets".

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