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Twistedsparkle

The zhuge prime

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On 2019-07-13 at 6:39 PM, Oreades said:

The problem with the self damage is that while it is fine for AoE weapons ..... the Zhuge was NEVER an AoE weapon. The Zhuge Prime just magically became an AoE weapon with no method for opting in/out. If it has been an alt fire mechanic, not a huge issue but it wasn't. 

Additionally the problem with the enemy getting hit with the arrow and exploding later after running towards the player is in part a problem with the fact that the Zhuge Prime splits it's base damage between the initial impact and the explosion. If the Arrow was doing the full damage in all likelihood the enemy would have been dead before they would have had a chance to run the arrow back to you. Not so much a timing on the explosion issue. 

As said Im ok with self dmg on AOE weapons. On the explosion delay I fully agree with you, you'll most of the time miss a 1s worth of explosive dmg, which if you have high fire rate could be a lot of dmg.

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On 2019-07-13 at 10:51 PM, ShadowFel said:

While I'm generally alright with self damage weapons, the idea of uncontrollable delayed explosions combined with self damage has done very poorly so far in this game.  When that happened to Tonkor, Tonkor's usage vanished.  Stug is very widely disliked.  High fire rate self damage weapons have similarly been either unpopular, or quickly changed to not deal self damage.  The recent Cyanex comes to mind.  So I do not understand why the combination of high fire rate, delayed explosions, and self damage were all combined on this weapon. 

The delay mechanic is incredibly stupid. Self dmg I can easily deal with, but not with suicide bombers.

On 2019-07-13 at 10:51 PM, ShadowFel said:

The reload passive is also awful, since it essentially punishes the muscle memory many players have to reload when there's a slight lull in the action.  I agree with a base reload of 1.5 and a different sort of bonus for reloading from empty. 

It could be a simple passive, like inate ammo mutation For 15s or even recoil reduction.

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Le 14/07/2019 à 01:22, xMarvin732 a dit :

The one thing i am confused about the Self damage is, why is it that only Zhuge prime has it and not Zhuge aswell??
it was causing so much confusion because i ended up suddenly dying as a normal Nova with a Zhuge Prime almost everytime in Void when i used it.

Because prime weapons may have additional or different mechanics, that's how they're designed. It's not confusing, it's just basically how DE is designing the game so at this point your only option is to deal with it.

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Maybe you should stop run and shoot with a weapon not designed to be used this way then, especially with explosive bolts. Tbh it's really hard to die thanks to these if you know what you're doing, the AoE range is really low and you also may survive the damage. There's no problem with Zhuge's AoE, the only issue so far is how some players are playing.

Maybe you should try a Penta for a few days, i can assure you it'll help to not die anymore because of your shots - it's nowhere near as weak as Zhuge self damages and projectiles also have less range - it's a good training.

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As a balancing mechanic in Warframe, I believe self-damage is a mistake. Your weapon should not be a bigger threat than the enemies you're fighting - that just feels bad. Zhuge Prime is mechanically themed to have delayed explosive crossbow bolts. I like the idea. Since changing or removing the explosive delay would be changing the intended theme, I think we'd be better off saying the self-damage should go away, and it's not like we're dealing with Lenz-size AoE here, it's a lot smaller.

I don't have anything to add about the damage being split between the initial hit and the explosion - seems like y'all have covered the problem with it already.

I'd be down for a reload speed increase as well.

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1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

Maybe you should stop run and shoot with a weapon not designed to be used this way then, especially with explosive bolts.

Maybe there shouldn't a balance mechanic that makes your weapon a bigger threat to you than the enemies you're trying to kill with it. If warframe was actually a hard game that would be one thing, but since DE has designed the game to be largely stat fighting, having weapons that can kill the user feels very out-of-place. Hell, if the self-damage was just did marginal damage and didn't insta-kill most frames that would be okay too. And there are exceptions like the Lenz where they did a great job visually showing the AoE range and giving it immense power to justify the self-damage, but for the most part the community really hates self-damage.

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Le 10/07/2019 à 06:44, Oreades a dit :

Just move the explosive/Self damage from the Primary to a Secondary Fire mechanic.

THIS !

With this, I could actually start enjoy this weapon, and it would be more logical. Right now, making the arrows explode shortly after impact is a bad design choice... hell, even as strong is the AOE on the ennemies, it's not necessary on low to medium levels, a valid build can kill anyone before the projectiles detonates... And to much risky on high levels, since you will most likely find yourself bathing in hordes of grunts ; which means they will jump at you, kamikaze style !

At this point, I would even be ok to have a secondary fire mode that allows you to shot 6 big projectiles / powerfull arrows with such mechanic ( on 30 ammo, 5 consummed per shot ), and even shoot slower than the regular bow... as long as I can safely move forward with a preimary mode, plunge into action, and finishing what's left with my faithfull Skiajati !  I'll even dare to say that, right now ?! LENZ is safer than this thing.

EDIT : Also, this is absoloutely possible to implant on the weapon... they did such for Cernos prime, allowing it to shoot vertically or horizontally.

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exactly, and because of the delayed explosion youre discouraged from moving forward while shooting which slows down killing enemies. if the self damage just didnt one shot you it wouldnt be as bad and it just feels awkward since this weapon really isnt anywhere near as strong as most of the other primed (even non primed) primary weapons that dont kill you faster than it kills enemies. they took a weapon with super low reward and gave it the highest risk of any weapon in the game without really buffing it. 

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The only explenation that cross my mind in therm of design and gameplay... is that it was the actual ONLY WAY to kill Wukong in game. X'D

But joke aside, i sincerely hope that DE will read the feedbacks on this prime, and bring an alternate firemode. keep the best of the two worlds, just to make them colide against one another.

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balance wise this thing should have some of the highest damage output in the game. i was always ok with the tigris having basically the most per shot damage because it has the drawback if having to reload after 2 shots and losing damage over a range. zhuge prime has to deal with both projectile speed/travel time and a self damage mechanic that is better at killing yourself than the other self damage weapons. imo arguably the most functional drawbacks on a weapon when it doesnt really excel in any other areas and doesnt even compete with top teir weapons that have little to no functional  drawbacks.

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if they dont want to remove self damage they should atleast buff the weapon to compete with other primaries that dont have any drawbacks like self damage. the combination of having to deal with projectile travel time and delayed explosions that one shot you makes it one if the least "usable" weapons in the game giving it the highest risk with no real reward. thats why in almost every game the shotguns, grenade/rocket launchers and projectile weapons like bows always do the most damage, to make up for its obvious drawbacks.

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I'm actually kinda curious what inspired the delayed explosion. I've heard of explosives being strapped to arrows, but more for tactical use instead of offensive use.

Back to the main topic: Really they should just make the explosion instant, seeing as how most players aren't going to do the mental work to wait for the explosion to go off to see if they can save a bolt for the kill. The self damage is also kinda foolish as this is a crossbow, not a launcher. You wouldn't treat an RPG like a rifle, and vice versa.

As for the reload passive, it'd be nice if the reload got progressively faster as the the magazine dwindled down. I'm guessing the passive was inspired to give the illusion that the bolts in the magazine are heavy, but the mag itself is light; so why not go a step further and add dynamic weight measurement?

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Not sure if anyone else was bothered by this but the flight speed on the Zhuge Prime is slower. It makes sense that the arrows don't fly as fast and have more arc (since they would be a little more heavy from the explosive) so I personally have to use a flight speed mod otherwise I find myself missing a lot of shots.

Another problem with the weapon is that punch through is arguably a bad thing because even if the arrow hits an enemy and goes through them it doesn't count as impact therefore the explosion is never triggered I don't think. Because of that, the arrow flies through the enemies, hits a wall and then explodes. If DE really insists on keeping the explosion delay they need to make it so that when the arrow hits anything it starts the explosion delay even if the arrow goes right through the enemy. However, even with all of it's downsides, the Zhuge Prime is still a pretty fun weapon to use.

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On 2019-07-15 at 10:08 AM, 000l000 said:

it's just basically how DE is designing the game so at this point your only option is to deal with it.

Or...just hear me out here...you could always post feedback saying "I don't like this mechanic, this is why, please fix this." Because the Feedback section of the forms exist for a reason. 

That being said, I'm really disappointed in this delayed fuse explosive bolt mechanic and the overall nerfs to flight speed, reload speed, and Puncture damage. It not only robs the weapon type of its status as a decent, all-around "stealth weapon", but It can also effectively turn melee-only units that charge you into suicide bombers (as other players have noted) if you're not careful. You really don't want to have a melee unit suddenly get in your face after it's just been liberally coated with Zhuge P bolts. The detonation of all those bolts will more likely than not kill you.

The art design for the Zhuge Prime is friggin' gorgeous and I was so ready to throw real money at it, but frankly this arbitrary change is a total deal-breaker for me. I'll be honest - I was looking forward to Zhuge P enjoying a bit extra overall damage (still Puncture heavy) and perhaps some added crit over the Zhuge. Now if the explosive bolts were an alt fire thing, I'd be ok with that because at least then it would be an option.

Until DE decides to change the Zhuge P into something less suicidal, I'm sticking with my old, reliable user-friendly and stealthy Zhuge. 

 

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The weapon is labeled as alarming but is supposed to be labeled silent? The original is silent and it makes sense, but with the prime version the bolts explode which makes noise. Yet firing the weapon is actually silent like the base weapon, this is proven by using Ivara's cloak which breaks if firing non-silent weapon. The Zhuge prime does not break Ivara's cloak. Now going off the main topic, if you look at the Lenz, it's also a alarming weapon, when using Cloak, firing the Lenz breaks cloak, I assume because the hidden mechanic is that the arrow shot with Lenz are charged and basically 'blast' out of the Lenz or is the Lenz actually also silent.

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Tell that to Ballistica Prime, also silent but the ghosts alert the enemy... Honestly it's like we can't have a stealth crossbow. Like they've made a gag and point out of it lmao

I assume it's silent until the explosion. Better than nothing imo.

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oh BS, the self damage is total BS and  a complete turn off for most everyone I've chatted with about it.  All like myself thought they could build this into pretty nice weapon till we hit the damage point of instant kill and realized it's no weapon you want in a hectic fight. oh wait a sec that's what this game is all about , those hectic battles we love, so basically it'll be a dust collector.  And seriously do you know how rare it is for someone to actually kill themselves with a crossbow?  No shortage of them killing others on accident but killing themselves is almost unheard of.  So why did they implement it in the game?  And even more to absurdity of this issue is there is a mod to deal with this issue [cautious shot]  but sorry you can't use it in the Zhuge, it's only for " Unique" weapons. Well a dam crossbow that will more than likely kill the user at least once every time used sounds pretty unique to me. But wait, it keeps going.  You can however install that mod in your Ignis Wraith, a weapon that I have never even herd rumor of hurting the operator.     WWWWW      TTTTTTTTTT        FFFFFFFF.     

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On 2019-07-11 at 11:25 AM, jmthebigman said:

Start at 8:15 for a general build without riven
13:30 with a riven
NOT MY VIDEO

I dare you to use the same exact build on the Komorex.

I DARE YOU.

Chances are, you might be able to see the big issue that i'm trying to transmit. Komorex (MR8) does so much better and with less ammo spent than Zhuge Prime (MR14) + without having delayed explosives +++ being able to get even more damage out due to combo counter. Don't even get me started on Amprex.

So yeah, i'm still hoping DE fixes this. After their big weapon rebalance patch and adjusting most weapons to their MR requirement in terms of power, i can't see how Zhuge Prime's lack of power with additional risk to kill yourself can ever be intended.

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We all share the same passion when it comes to self damage weapons, as much as we love their undeniable aoe power there are times where the mechanic isn't justified, Zhuge would be one of them. Now, just to be clear I love the unique mechanic but there are things that need to be addressed. First of all, the arrows will explode roughly a second after they come in contact with the ground/or enemy, why was this a good idea? Now, I cannot be the only individual here where I've accidently stepped over my misplaced arrow on the ground or even having an enemy full on pelt their way to my vulnerable corpse covered in a minefield of Zhuge arrows? The bottom line is its now even "easier" to get yourself killed, the mechanic feels more like a downside than an upgrade which is a HUGE shame. So to fix this my recommendations would be to either: 

A. Remove the self damage completely 

B. The arrows will immediately explode upon contact

Secondly the reload... Now now I know you can cut the reload in half by emptying the magazine sure, but is it honestly too much to ask that we have the reload reduced without the unnecessary hassle? Many people reload on the fly, I cannot be the only one. 

This isn't a huge request but I guarantee a lot of people will back it up. I'd be overjoyed to see this change. Zhuge prime deserves some love ♥️

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C) Keep both with a primary fire that does full damage without explosions and a secondary fire that splits the damage with explosions, that preferably explode without a delay. 

 

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Self Damage has always been a controversial idea in this game. A lot of people (myself included) would see it as an improvement to abolish it entirely. I think that could be comfortably done without breaking...Warframe. A game where everything is already bonkers insane. Most people would probably just see it as some minor QoL really.

But that's not exactly the point I'm trying to make about the Zhuge. Self Damage really has no justification for existing except for serving as some sort of balancing factor. So, if your weapon has this big AoE explosion, some would argue that the Self Damage serves as a drawback to balance it out.

But, the Zhuge doesn't have a big AoE explosion. It's like, tiny. So, this honestly just reads as overbalancing. What's worse, the delay on the explosion makes it to where you can kill yourself just by running forward after you've already shot the weapon at a safe distance.  I imagine someone was just like "hey we're giving it an AoE effect, so it should have self damage too" without really thinking through if that was justified in this case.

The Zhuge Prime is more akin to Staticor or Tombfinger than Zarr or Penta. And the Staticor and Tombfinger don't have Self Damage, so why does this thing need it? Overall, Zhuge Prime just seems like a weak, inconvenient version of the Staticor that isn't worth using because it's ruined by its gimmick. I think that's the thought process that will go through a lot of players heads when they consider ever equipping Zhuge Prime again after leveling.

It reminds me of how the Cernos Prime was Dead-On-Arrival to the game, and everyone knew it was just because the gimmick was bad. And if the gimmick was done well, then people may actually want to use it. And eventually its gimmick got changed to something that actually makes sense, and now it's totally usable. When is Zhuge Prime going the get the Cernos treatment? (Sooner rather than later ideally)

Don't get me wrong, I think Prime weapons need to have special mechanics to stay interesting. It's just as puzzling to me when DE puts super forgettable Primes into the game with absolutely nothing special about them, aside from occasional Power Creep. But if people give valid reasons for why the gimmick is bad, then change it.

This is my request to remove the Self Damage from this weapon, please.

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Self dmg isnt that big of a problem in my opinion, the problem comes from its delayed explosion, which turns basically any melee unit into a suicide bomber. Completely removing that will easily fix the weapon. One other thing would be to remove its gimmicky passive and just make the 1.5s reload be its base reload duration, since now it only punishes players for playing smart. 

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9 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

Self dmg isnt that big of a problem in my opinion, the problem comes from its delayed explosion, which turns basically any melee unit into a suicide bomber. Completely removing that will easily fix the weapon. One other thing would be to remove its gimmicky passive and just make the 1.5s reload be its base reload duration, since now it only punishes players for playing smart. 

I hear you and get where you're coming from. The explosion delay is the added bit of ridiculousness, for sure. But I still strongly feel the weapon having Self Damage doesn't really pass the logical-thought-process test.

For example, most Warframes can be modded now to where you can be survivable against enemies if you pay attention to what you're doing. Great, that sounds like good game mechanics right? But then, why would I equip a weapon that would make me the single greatest threat to myself on the battlefield? (when there are better weapon options anyway)

Especially because it really only takes one minor mistake to kill myself, immediately. Because the amount of damage weapons deal and the amount of eHP Warframes have is really disproportionately against our favor. Even with eHP modding taken into account.

So it just doesn't pass the logic test to bring the instant kamikaze death machine and become the biggest threat to yourself in the whole game when that's totally unnecessary.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

I hear you and get where you're coming from. The explosion delay is the added bit of ridiculousness, for sure. But I still strongly feel the weapon having Self Damage doesn't really pass the logical-thought-process test.

For example, most Warframes can be modded now to where you can be survivable against enemies if you pay attention to what you're doing. Great, that sounds like good game mechanics right? But then, why would I equip a weapon that would make me the single greatest threat to myself on the battlefield? (when there are better weapon options anyway)

Especially because it really only takes one minor mistake to kill myself, immediately. Because the amount of damage weapons deal and the amount of eHP Warframes have is really disproportionately against our favor. Even with eHP modding taken into account.

So it just doesn't pass the logic test to bring the instant kamikaze death machine and become the biggest threat to yourself in the whole game when that's totally unnecessary.

That has to do with self dmg in general, which has to be taken a second look at. Im not opposed to the Idea of weapon with AOE capabilities having self dmg, as long as its balanced. A good way to balance this would be to introduce self dmg health gates, like you cant deal more than 50% of your hp as self dmg in one go. But when it comes to the zhuge prime combined with a riven (+CC +DMG) I've only killed myself once or twice, though that might just be me because I naturally aim glide when using self dmg weapons like it and the phantasma.

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