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Twistedsparkle

The zhuge prime

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3 hours ago, MJ12 said:

That's not balance. That's just creating a higher skill floor for launchers, by which I mean you're drastically increasing the minimum level of competence necessary to get enjoyment out of the weapon. Generally the goal for videogame balance is to create relatively low skill floors but relatively high skill ceilings so new players can enjoy the game right from the start and players feel like they're meaningfully improving in skill over time. High skill floors are generally bad, because first impressions are super important and even if something with a high skill floor becomes fun and worthwhile over time as you improve, a high skill floor makes for awful first impressions. And right now launchers are basically the worst of all possible worlds-they don't actually have much higher skill ceilings than other weapons and they have much higher skill floors for you to have fun and contribute with them. This is probably why they're actually rarely used weapons as their Riven dispositions reflect.

And again, there is literally nothing that the implementation of self-damage in Warframe does that couldn't be done better by removing self-damage entirely and making it so that explosives don't detonate if you would be in the blast radius. The exact same result would occur-you wouldn't be able to fire point-blank. The only change would be that it would feel better for everyone, because the people who are defending self damage now claim that they are never affected by it because they "play good" and therefore nothing changes for them, while the people who find it annoying, frustrating, or offputting will actually have a weapon with handling forgiving enough that they'll be more willing to put in the time to learn how to fire launchers and what their handling characteristics are because, again, the weapon still will be basically useless if you try to fire it point-blank but at least this way the result is that you don't do any damage and have to try again, which is what Warframe can and should expect from you screwing up a shot. Again, even assuming for the sake of argument that being able to point-blank everything would make launchers overpowered (which I don't think is clearly true given how powerful melee weapons are in the game and how melee weapons can easily sweep larger radii than launchers) removing self-damage and having minimum arming distances would actually retain the weapon's 'balance' by keeping the same skill ceiling and the exact same proficiency requirements (because the higher your skill level, the fewer whiffed shots you make and the higher your DPS, so you want to learn the characteristics of the weapon and not miss shots by landing them too close to yourself anyhow) while reducing the skill floor (because whiffed shots won't kill you, but force you to aim again).

Exactly, play good.

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The Zhuge prime is one of the worst prime weapons to date honestly, unless you have a tiven which should not be be a factor ever in a weapons viability to be fair. What I would do about is is instant explosions, faster travel time, more damage, lower riven Disposition, and remove self damage is possible among other things to make it worthwhile. Some might say this is a bit much but it just feels to weak even with multiple forma compared to presious releases and that needs to be fkxed so it is on par with them...

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On 2019-07-24 at 7:00 PM, vaarnaaarne said:

Well the key thing there I feel is that the best AoE weapons never had self-damage to begin with. Something like Ogris can't even begin to compete with say Ignis Wraith or Staticor. Zhuge Prime is another good example of why self-damage has never worked out: There is no extraordinary benefit to justify the extraordinary drawback, it just isn't powerful enough for that. Self-damage is entirely a net negative for the weapon, like it is for almost every self-damage weapon.

The only worth while self damage weapons worth the risk are the Zarr and Lenz is were all being honest here. I say remove it on all but those I mentioned because they are stfong enough to warrant it...

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5 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Exactly, play good.

This literally isn't a response or rebuttal to anything I said.

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On 2019-07-25 at 11:39 PM, IceColdHawk said:

Both have AoE. Both can kill yourself. Except one of them can justify having self damage while also having a purpose. I'm still struggling to find out what the purpose of Zhuge Prime is. Getting enemies dead for the MR it requires seems definitely not on the list.

I do think that MR and cost requirements should play a role of how performing a weapon can be. Doesn't hurt for Warframe to give players further incentives to progress. Though that's besides the topic.

Some lower mr weapons have the beter quirks etc but if youd make em do garbage dmg just cause its low or lower Mr would hurt the game.

 

Im doing just fine stripping armor or nuking groups.
Ok given, I got a pretty much perfect riven with CC/CD/flight speed and -puncture

So far I know ZP fires faster and better for stripping and you dont have the zoom.

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Bruh, I already sold my zhuge prime for 5000 credits. Could care less about this weapon, I haven't had such a hard time leveling a weapon ( as in killing with it ) some I was Mr 2 with barely any mods. This gun is so bad it has a hard time killing enemies in invasions, low level bounties, forget armored units. Stack slash and toxin procs and wait. I spent more time reloading this gun than firing it, I'm done, back to all my other bad ass guns that don't require a bazillion utility mods.

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If they stopped the delayed explosion and just made it explode on contact like the Astilla, a lot less complaints would appear.

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1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

If they stopped the delayed explosion and just made it explode on contact like the Astilla, a lot less complaints would appear.

No. I would still complain about the embarassing damage.

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Just now, IceColdHawk said:

No. I would still complain about the embarassing damage.

I did say a lot less, not all.

A lot of self damage complaints would disappear since everyone would use it like they use Concealed Explosives Hikou.

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18 hours ago, Ikusias said:

The 1,5 -2 second delay is enough for most enemy units to close the gap in most tiles

If that statement is true, it's also long enough for us to widen the gap tenfold.

Positioning, awareness, and mobility are all aspects of "playing well".

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33 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

If that statement is true, it's also long enough for us to widen the gap tenfold.

Positioning, awareness, and mobility are all aspects of "playing well".

Having actually tried the Zhuge Prime, I would just say, the delay is plain stupid. It is not like an explosive gun without a delay does not require positioning, awareness and mobility. I may not be having any issues with the self damage since I am quite used to playing with a Lenz (was a Lenz fanatic for a period of time when it first came out) and the Zhuge is chickenfeet compared to close range Lenz use (because the damage is so much less), but this makes it quite a fun killing weapon for most.

I don't think people want to play Warframe to remember where exactly they shot the 30 odd bolts in the whole magazine just so they don't end up taking themselves out in a chain of small explosions. It may not be the hardest thing in the world to do, but it is of great detriment to QoL.

9 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Exactly, play good.

Remembering a couple of metrics for an explosive gun isn't exactly playing good, it's just tedium. It's not really any skill if you are used to it and pretty braindead.

Trying to pass off "oh I avoided explosions" as playing good is ... not quite playing good. Any smart player would just use a gun without the tedium (Staticor and co).

A "good" player isn't just about "I can 360 noscope" but also "I took the right gun". Meme =/= good. The Zhuge Prime does not exist in isolation. It is compared to all other guns. Picking a choice that makes your own life hard doesn't make you a good player.

 

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The lenz has a pair of advantages over the zhuge delayed explosion that make it an actually good launcher:

- visibilty of the area of effect

- cold proc to prevent enemies and users from leaving the area

- a lot of knockback on direct hits that guarantee that the target and the explosion remain were they land

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7 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

The lenz has a pair of advantages over the zhuge delayed explosion that make it an actually good launcher:

- visibilty of the area of effect

- cold proc to prevent enemies and users from leaving the area

- a lot of knockback on direct hits that guarantee that the target and the explosion remain were they land

You may want to state the cold proc preventing the users from leaving the area is a detriment.

Yes, the Zhuge P doesn't have this and I rolled out of the blast radius of my arrows a lot today when ranking it. It's something that can make the Lenz dangerous if you are careless, and the Zhuge is more forgiving than that by a lot.

But the rest is valid.

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Penta is in a category of its own regarding stupid self damage: it's own inert grenades bouncing around in a non-euclidean manner can and will murder you, usually by headshotting

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This thread really wasn't meant to be as heated as it has gotten just recently. But I guess that's because I didn't expect people to be so in love with self damage, for some reason. Of course as always, you are allowed to just love self damage if you want. But I'm sorry, I can't understand that.

There have been so many Cons against it mentioned. But the sum of the Pros of self damage so far is that it makes you play the game better (debatable), under threat of death. Fun.

However, I will say that if self damage were reworked (reasonably) then I would be okay with that. If you guys have been paying attention, it's the instant self-kills part this that really presents the problem here. The weapon damage Math is so stacked against you to ensure that you die on a minor mistake. Someone mentioned that it might be a good idea to have a self-damage gating mechanic to make sure you don't kill yourself. So for example, if you were to make a mistake, then it could only damage a percentage of your health. That may be a good compromise.

But in the case of the Zhuge Prime, there is a delay on the explosion, which makes you more likely to die in a variety of ways. And, it fires so many projectiles so quickly. Those are just extra chances to die. Self damage is just really bad on this weapon in particular.

I remember a while back when Limbo could still freeze projectiles in time. I advocated to change that (eventually it did change). But before then, people talked about how it shouldn't change. Or they talked about how Limbo would just break the game if that restriction wasn't there.

It has been nearly a year since that change happened, and does anybody care now? Good change happened, and the game just moved on. Same thing happened with people who were against UniVac. And a number of other changes. Some people just defend the Status Quo.

If self damage were to change (or just go away) I'm sure people would just move on and forget about it. It would just be that annoying thing that used to exist in the game.

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6 hours ago, 000l000 said:

The explosion happens only 1sec on impacting a surface, if someone dies because of that he's most certainly shooting at really short range, which is - once again - stupid gameplay.

The two most popular things in Warframe is "Ignis Wraith" and "complaining about anything all day long" - perhaps some people here should keep using an Ignis and stop complaining about a weapon category they definitely can't handle. Penta can't shoot much far away and is way more deadly than Zhuge, still people aren't whining because they're killing themselves with it.

Zhuge can shoot at long range so if one is dying that's for one single reason, he's shooting at way too short range - and that's not DE's concern if people are dumb at this point.

If you read my posts, you will realize I have no issues with the explosion and don't care about the self damage. It is simply that the "Delay to explosion" mechanic is dumb from a whole gameplay perspective (especially for a gun where crits are essentially coin flips, so you can't decide how many bullets to fire). The closest comparison is actually a Concealed Explosives Hikou, which definitely is way less tedious to use. The Zhuge Prime's delay to explosion is an overall stupid mechanic which can easily be switched to a contact fuse.

Also, Penta is mostly fixed with Napalm Grenades that gives it a contact fuse. It's much harder to kill yourself with Penta after using that unless your squadmates are being total trolls and purposefully putting frost bubbles and such in your face.

The problem with the Zhuge Prime is that it generates a lot of unnecessary tedium in a stupid attempt to be gimmicky.

 

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I think DE implements self-damage in much the same way as they implement protracted casting animations: it's not really done as a balancing factor, because there is no consistency to the balancing of affected frames or weapons; it's mostly done either arbitrarily or following some weird system the developers have set for themselves. In the case of self-damage specifically, it's typically given to any weapon that produces some sort of AoE, regardless of the latter's size or damage. It never works, and the Zhuge Prime is particularly poorly-suited for self-damage due to the detonation delay and tiny, poorly visible explosion (as opposed to the Lenz, whose explosion radius is at least clearly visible). There are ultimately no real arguments to be made in favor of self-damage, particularly when the people pushing for it are visibly only doing so because they are desperate to convince someone, anyone, that they are Good At The GameTM, in a game known for being trivially easy at most levels. One could remove self-damage safely from the Zhuge Prime, even all self-damaging weapons, and the game would be only the better for it.

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On 2019-07-11 at 1:06 AM, IceColdHawk said:

Sadly, yes. I was also hyped about the Prime since i kinda liked the normal version already. And when i playtested Zhuge Prime, despite the self damage since it doesn't bother me too much personally, i had lots of fun. It felt like a great weapon. Though through all the leveling i was wondering why my damage numbers seemed so low. I had them way higher in memory when i leveled my standard Zhuge and the difference seemed more than just 10% less base damage. So i headed to the simulacrum and found out the disappointment of the month...

I'm aware that it can proc status quite a bit easier due to each shot, practically hitting twice. But the damage seems lacking for a prime upgrade over the Zhuge. I'd be happier if DE just released a whole new crossbow instead which comes with a built-in thunderbolt instead of making a whole new weapon and labelling it as "Zhuge Prime". It feels like Opticor Vandal all over again 😕

Yeah i know, way less powerful than the vanilla Zhuge...This weapon is melting heavily armoured enemies like a breeze, and it doesn't even need a lot of ammo since it's dealing really nice area damages.

Zhuge prime is perfectly fine, only players literally suck. It also could be built as a pure bleeding machine since as opposed to vanilla Zhuge, its prime version is dealing a lot of slash damage. I've tried a viral+slash and it works perfectly fine too.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think DE implements self-damage in much the same way as they implement protracted casting animations: it's not really done as a balancing factor, because there is no consistency to the balancing of affected frames or weapons; it's mostly done either arbitrarily or following some weird system the developers have set for themselves. In the case of self-damage specifically, it's typically given to any weapon that produces some sort of AoE, regardless of the latter's size or damage. It never works, and the Zhuge Prime is particularly poorly-suited for self-damage due to the detonation delay and tiny, poorly visible explosion (as opposed to the Lenz, whose explosion radius is at least clearly visible). There are ultimately no real arguments to be made in favor of self-damage, particularly when the people pushing for it are visibly only doing so because they are desperate to convince someone, anyone, that they are Good At The GameTM, in a game known for being trivially easy at most levels. One could remove self-damage safely from the Zhuge Prime, even all self-damaging weapons, and the game would be only the better for it.

The implementation of self-damage seems like it's basically "if this weapon shoots explosives it does self-damage" when designing weapons, regardless of whether that self-damage renders the weapon unusable or frustrating, which is why so many weapons have had to have self-damage reduced (Zarr, Kulstar, Tonkor) or even completely removed (Cyanex, Staticor). 

And I think it's extremely interesting that whenever the topic of self-damage comes up, the people who claim that other players should "git gud" and stop "playing bad" never suggest that the skill ceiling of launchers should be raised. No, it's always about keeping the skill floor to have fun with launchers as high as possible. It's never about "give us tools so we can show off how good we are," it's always about lecturing people who find instant death self-damage radii frustrating about how they're bad at the game. It's a very myopic and self-serving understanding of 'skill' that ignores that 'unforgiving' is not the same as 'difficult' and in fact 'unforgiving' mechanics are often not actually difficult, because the worse you make a certain negative outcome (how unforgiving it is) the easier it must be to avoid (how difficult it is) unless you want to lead to absurd levels of frustration.

If you actually, in good faith, wanted avoiding self-damage to be a sign of skill, you would probably want to make self-damage pretty forgiving but also difficult to avoid, so you can put in the necessary practice to avoid it, then show off with how you're firing your Kulstar or Zarr near point-blank and somehow never hitting yourself because you know exactly how the bomblets spawn and how they angle off of impact surfaces or whatever. Yet every self-damager in this thread never considers being able to fire danger close as a possible mark of skill, instead just dismissing it as 'playing dumb.' Which is funny because I think the highest-skill self-damaging weapons I've played with in videogames are the ones which explicitly invite you to fire them at very close range in certain situations and part of the skill is knowing when to use them danger-close because that's something to keep in mind, and makes the decision of whether to shoot or not shoot more complex.

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3 minutes ago, --Q--ualityContent said:

I have to say, for the amount of buffs that Zhuge Prime takes fairly long...

+1

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The biggest problem with self-damage: You are more dangerous to yourself than enemies are.

We're dealing with years of power creep here. What a silly idea to try to balance weapons with massive self-damage. Of course players will instantly kill themselves with fully modded weapons. Is it really that hard to put a hard or soft cap on the mechanic itself? Where are DE's priorities on this? We can't even get gates to help with this, despite them being a very popular idea and well-argued mechanic as well. We got a failed solution implemented as a farm (Cautious Shot), instead of implementing a proper solution. Now we've got it on a fresh new prime weapon that slows the game down for any point-to-point mission. DE needs to stop messing around and sort out whatever internal force is keeping this failed system going.

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23 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Yeah i know, way less powerful than the vanilla Zhuge... This thread and all of Zhuge prime threads about self damage are a joke, whining is definitely the only feedback people are able to deliver these days. This weapon is melting heavily armoured enemies like a breeze, and it doesn't even need a lot of ammo since it's dealing really nice area damages.

Zhuge prime is perfectly fine, only players literally suck. It also could be built as a pure bleeding machine since as opposed to vanilla Zhuge, its prime version is dealing a lot of slash damage. I've tried a viral+slash and it works perfectly fine too.

Nice cat's eye you have there that is totally not faking the damage output :crylaugh:. Know what, have fun with your toy. I'll be sitting here with guns in the meantime until DE finally fixes Zhuge Prime to be worth the MR14 requirement.

 

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I'm a Revenant main and avid Lenz enthusiast self damage is not really an issue for me, My problem with the Zhuge prime is it doesn't pack the oomph it should you shoot the targets they lose some hp and then the bolts explode for the remainder of the damage that was not dealt in the initial hit, you may of been able to melt those heavygunners with cat buffs but I'm used to weapons that don't need cat buffs to turn heavy gunners into paste you can say players suck if you really want too and if you like Zhuge prime power to you but to me its a member of the Ballistica club.

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37 minutes ago, ErinaAlda said:

[...] to me its a member of the Ballistica club.

I put Zhuge Prime with (normal) Snipetron with the 3.0 reload time. That reload speed kills it further. Snipetron can also use Arcane Momentum...

I feel the damage is quite underwhelming for MR 14, especially given the MR requirements of Catchmoon, Pyrana Prime, Tiberon Prime, Rubico Prime, Vectis Prime, Prisma Grinlok, Telos Boltor and basically any other upgraded primary that does substantial damage. Crossbows are quite under-powered in general with the 2.83s reload on Attica and 2.5s reload on Zhuge and decent damage. The Attica is only fun for me because of the 1.42 Riven disposition. I have used Zhuge with good Riven Mods at one point. It definitely kills enemies, and Attica/Zhuge are not that bad, but they still feel sluggish to me. I was expecting Zhuge Prime to look at that factor, but I have to say it made it worse. It would be awesome to see a good crossbow that can compete with other automatic weapons. I prefer taking Cernos Prime or other interesting bows over a crossbow like Zhuge Prime.

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