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The zhuge prime

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On 2019-07-25 at 10:08 AM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Dont shoot self dmg weapons point blank. Basically... Aim. Basically... Dont play in a way that is bad. Play good.

Sure, i'll stop using bad weapon.

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49 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Sure, i'll stop using bad weapon.

Exactly. People are acting like the self damage forces people to play the game better. Not really.

Instead it just incentives avoiding those weapons. (unless people are weirdly okay with inadvertently committing suicide) Thus, ruining those weapons.

And self damage evasion tactics (like bullet jumping, double jumping, aim gliding, never getting to attack at close range) aren't necessarily superior gameplay. It's just stuff that slows you down, but you have to do it anyways. And not everyone finds it fun to tiptoe around death. (and it doesn't always work in the unpredictable nature of the game)

Does anybody actually think that self damage weapons are well represented by player usage?

Most Veterans are probably savvy enough to recognize the better alternatives. And new players are busy trying to get stuff done and learn the game. Most of them probably put self damage weapons away the moment they realize it represents a threat to them.

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Posted (edited)

If I'm being completely honest, I haven't had any problems w/ self damage on zhuge prime. And no, I'm not trying to say I'm "so amazing at the game that I just know how to avoid it and the rest of you should just get good", I'm saying that, as someone who used the zhuge a lot and now uses the zhuge prime just as frequently, I've never rly had much of an issue w/ it dealing self damage. Sure there'll be the ocassional door catching the arrows or something similar, but the zhuge is a crossbow not a melee weapon. I'd agree if it was on a shotgun or something(and I do agree that the concept of self damage in warframe is questionable), but from what I've heard vs. what I've experienced in game, it seems to me like everyone's been severely overexaggerating things simply because it's the newest self-damaging weapon and another example to use in proving their point. Again, I'm not supporting or refuting self-damage as a whole, I'm just saying that everyone seems to be over-reacting to the zhuge prime in particular.

Edited by sonpanth

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I'm not a fan of the explosive arrows, but given that they spread status, i think the self damage is an ok trade-off...... except for the delay. The fcking delay. That thing completely destroys any chance of using the weapon.

If things happen to be weak enough to die from the arrow, then any sort of AoE will kill them, making the explosion useless. If the enemies are strong enough to actually get hit by the explosion, then we have a serious issue, where players are spreading live bombs on mobile targets that usually tends to move near us. It makes it impossible to use the weapon properly, because you must keep an eye on every single enemy you shoot in other avoid getting self-blasted if we happen to move near them, or, even more funnier, they going kamikaze on us.

Remove the delay. It will make the weapon FAR more usable, without taking away the danger, but removing the randomness that punish players for doing nothing wrong.

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7 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

Remove the delay. It will make the weapon FAR more usable, without taking away the danger, but removing the randomness that punish players for doing nothing wrong.

I spent a few days using it and had no issues with the delay (Sorties/ESO/Arbitrations). I don’t think I even got hit by the explosion more than a few times, certainly never killed. I have just been left wondering if this is all, or at least mostly, user fault.

  • I don’t think removing the delay will make the weapon more usable. A short delay allows for enemies to converge on where the arrow is. I have certainly used Zakti to shoot the ground, killing groups of enemies before. It works reasonably well in some missions.

My preference would be to keep the delay. I would much rather loose the self-damage than the delay. But I don’t think it is necessary to remove either.

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Just now, krc473 said:

 My preference would be to keep the delay. I would much rather loose the self-damage than the delay. But I don’t think it is necessary to remove either.

the self damage will never go away. DE put it in the tonkor when it didn't have it, i don't see a reason they would do different here.

That being said, no delay means full control on the explosion. Thats huge. Shooting a charging enemy and not killing it with the arrows means instant death with squishy frames. I main rhino, with iron shrapnel for good measure, i will most likely never die from the arrows, that doesn't change the fact that having to recast all the time because that sht keeps blowing up near me when i shoot charging things is freaking anoying. I don't want to think how it would feel with non-tanky frames.

More control for the player is allways good, and random punishing mechanics are allways bad. There is no good reason to keep the delay.

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15 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Sure, i'll stop using bad weapon.

Your choice... Which is the basis for DE. People can play the way they want. If you don't like self dmg weapons, dont play with em.

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9 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Your choice... Which is the basis for DE. People can play the way they want. If you don't like self dmg weapons, dont play with em.

I'm saying we have no reason to use those weapons maybe except aesthetics, not to say it's not viable, but i don't really think it's balanced.

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So... don't have much time because im at the hospital, just saw this thread and was like...

"Let me guess, this is an issue with the self harm of the weapon, and six pages of people trying desperately to defend the least popular physic in the game?"

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4 hours ago, Test-995 said:

I'm saying we have no reason to use those weapons maybe except aesthetics, not to say it's not viable, but i don't really think it's balanced.

To be fair, their are builds for Ivara that can make use of them... Empowering quiver which increases crit damage works well with anything that has high crit and crit multiplier and the "atracker" arrow means you can drop a lot of talons and bring everything into one place and blow them all up.... but yeah basically they're trash. Except on spy missions with those drones that sound the alarm if anything attacks them, talons can instantly destroy them...................and you...

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I don't have as much of an issue with the self-damage as most other people seem to, and I think that removing the delay would actually make it worse.

That said, my issue with Zhuge Prime is that damage-wise, it ultimately performs worse than Astilla, which is a very similar weapon that's 4 mastery ranks behind and also lacks self damage.

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There are dozens of weapons that can clear a hallway of sortie or arbitration level enemies in a fraction of a second (without any risk of self damage).

The idea that a weapon like the Zhuge Prime needs self-damage as a "trade-off" because otherwise it'd be too good is incredibly silly.

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On 2019-07-30 at 11:18 PM, Test-995 said:

I'm saying we have no reason to use those weapons maybe except aesthetics, not to say it's not viable, but i don't really think it's balanced.

Define "we" because i disagree. I love self dmg weapons. Secura penta with or without the augment is extremely good. Ogris with or without... Very very good. Zhuge prime, is exceptional... I would only change the explosion delay... But its not needed.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-08-02 at 10:58 PM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Define "we" because i disagree. I love self dmg weapons. Secura penta with or without the augment is extremely good. Ogris with or without... Very very good. Zhuge prime, is exceptional... I would only change the explosion delay... But its not needed.

Can't forget about the Zarr. That thing is a blast to run around with

 

Pun not intended

Edited by sonpanth
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its ridiculous that they gave the zhuge prime less base damage then added self damage on top of that.

self damage should be reserved for EXTREMELY high dmg weapons.

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