Universal Weapon handling Buff (like reload speed) with weapon use and/or a paragon system/MR Progression Tiers

[Maka.Bones]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is not "snobby" to point out that you visibly aren't making an effort to listen to the feedback people are giving on your thread, and are instead trying to deflect criticism towards some part of your post that doesn't even answer it. The fact that you seem to have had this problem with virtually every single person you have replied to on this thread (I'm not even the only person you're accusing of snobbery) suggests the problem may lie with you, not the entire rest of the forums. If facing disagreement causes you to dismiss others and question their character right off the bat, what are you even doing on an internet forum?

Btw, yes it is snobby when the only feedback you guys have to say is basically what amounts to  "no you're wrong, stop asking for that, it's a bad idea" or "i don't like your idea" but  you're saying it with long & embellished paragraphs. it's also snobby to be using "embellished" words to just simply call someone "dumb and annoying" (silly, and fastidious) 

Just say that instead, if that's what you mean. It's much shorter, straight to the point, and saves us both a lot of time 🙂

 

You do want faster reload, but the other guys don't want it. Ok cool, you and I have common ground. If we can come up with a good suggestion for DE then i don't necessarily need it to be *my* specific suggestion, or to directly be attached to MR (i just thought skill-development would be a cool concept). If you come up with a better idea than I did, then i'll support it--that easy. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Birdframe_Prime]

52 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

No, you disagree because i'm not making a point you want to see or that you like. Not because it's wrong or moot. You also need to stop the snobby tone of voice. 

Don't try to tell me why I disagree with you. I've explained why I disagree with you. If you can't take basic criticism on your ideas, you're in the wrong place.

Your answer to 'it makes no sense from a game-play mechanical point of view, nor does it make sense for the end-goal of stopping players from nuking' is 'stop being snobby' and 'you just don't like what I'm saying'.

Great arguments. Especially when you literally counter yourself saying

53 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

And perhaps Nukes exist because some players also enjoy them. Let others have things they enjoy. 

Your original point was this, and I do quote you because you seem to have forgotten:

6 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

It makes it hard to reward "skillful gunplay" if you're slowed down by your ability to reload, and it encourages more "nuke to win" playstyles instead.

When you're trying to stop nukes being rewarded, your answer is 'scrap long reloads' and that just doesn't do what you think it does.

Besides the fact that it won't stop nuke behaviour, you literally then go on to say 'players enjoy nukes, let them have them'.

Outside of that, reloads are there to balance gun play, not to affect abilities, so you're not even in the right ball-park there.

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

I wouldn't have such a blast whenever I get an infinite ammo "void" buff

And you do understand why this is a time-limited buff, right? Or does that basic concept escape you as well?

It's a limited buff you can only get at random as a reward for completing an objective in mission because it's a powerful buff that makes the game easier. The reloads are there because they're supposed to balance the weapon game play, and the releasing of those limitations literally unbalances it as a buff.

You just want something because you don't understand why you can't have it in the first place, with no actual idea of why it's not already yours, and why anyone would even want to keep it from you and only let you have it sparingly. It's the point-of-view of a four year old who hasn't learned that you can't have something you want just because you want it.

I'll stop being snobby when you stop being bratty.

[Maka.Bones]

15 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Don't try to tell me why I disagree with you. I've explained why I disagree with you. If you can't take basic criticism on your ideas, you're in the wrong place.

Your answer to 'it makes no sense from a game-play mechanical point of view, nor does it make sense for the end-goal of stopping players from nuking' is 'stop being snobby' and 'you just don't like what I'm saying'.

Great arguments. Especially when you literally counter yourself saying

Your original point was this, and I do quote you because you seem to have forgotten:

When you're trying to stop nukes being rewarded, your answer is 'scrap long reloads' and that just doesn't do what you think it does.

Besides the fact that it won't stop nuke behaviour, you literally then go on to say 'players enjoy nukes, let them have them'.

Outside of that, reloads are there to balance gun play, not to affect abilities, so you're not even in the right ball-park there.

And you do understand why this is a time-limited buff, right? Or does that basic concept escape you as well?

It's a limited buff you can only get at random as a reward for completing an objective in mission because it's a powerful buff that makes the game easier. The reloads are there because they're supposed to balance the weapon game play, and the releasing of those limitations literally unbalances it as a buff.

You just want something because you don't understand why you can't have it in the first place, with no actual idea of why it's not already yours, and why anyone would even want to keep it from you and only let you have it sparingly. It's the point-of-view of a four year old who hasn't learned that you can't have something you want just because you want it.

I'll stop being snobby when you stop being bratty.

Lol well at least you're a fun retort. 

No. you had my main point wrong; you removed a key part of it. It's in the main article, and it's this: 

"If  this game was more of a tactical shooter again (sorta like doom, or MH) then slower reloads would make more sense.  For hordes  though, it makes a little less sense. It makes it hard to reward "skillful gunplay" if you're slowed down by your ability to reload, and it encourages more "nuke to win" playstyles instead. "

While I don't personally enjoy the nuke playstyle, I don't want to take it away from others who do enjoy it (unlike yourself, like that kid who wants the parents to take the toy away from their sibling because they also can't have fun with it)

Instead of removing nukes like you suggested, i'd prefer to just have more flexibility with my gunplay. Yes it would increase the DPS, and that's kind of the point. I don't need my gun to do ALL the damage; there are plenty of mods and powers for that already. What i'd like is for weapons to have less reload speed. I'd prefer more all-around weapon flexibility.

What exactly is wrong with that? Your argument for "breaking the dps in the game" is moot because nuke abilities already exist, and already break the dps in the game, and they're what i'm trying to compete with.... Without taking them away from players who enjoy them. 

I can't agree with your perspective, because it comes from the bias that you want those nukes removed. Meanwhile I just want a better way to compete against them (tougher enemies, better weapon action/flexibility) so that I'm not taking something away from others, but I can still enjoy in the fun. 

My Corinth build is unconventional, but I can still manage to keep up with the rest of the group in terms of DPS. That's because I have a riven with reload speed. However, it's not exactly practical to get reload speed on *every single weapon* when there's not much we can do about controlling these rolls (it's also not practical or ideal to expect someone to get a riven for every single weapon they enjoy)

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

Which I just added, because everyone kept making the same comments about "realism" 

... which merely confirms the criticism that was made of your post. Were you expecting a different result?

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

How is that from realism? Like you realize that anything posted here on the forums, won't make it into the game until like 1-2 years from now? By then, I'd hope that warframe would be "advanced" enough, so I fail to see how it would be silly or fastidious

Most of the suggestions made here do not require the standards for game design and technology to leap another generation to be even worth considering. I also explained pretty clearly why you were arguing from realism already in the post you are responding to, so answering with sheer denial at best signals you are unequipped to receive any further clarification, and at worst indicates you simply do not want to have an honest debate to begin with.

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

(unlike your comments... by the way, that's exactly how you're being snobby)

... snobby how? Even you admitted your proposals are highly unrealistic, and as pointed out already, you're demanding this extremely advanced tech update (while advocating absolute simplicity too, btw) just to shorten reload animations, which so tiny a problem as to be a non-issue. I fail to see what would be snobbish about pointing out the ridiculousness of such a request. 

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

How exactly would it be "an order of magnitude" more complicated? It's literally just a script that would increase reload speed by 1% = to MR value

So first off, you don't seem to understand what scripts are, as scripts are simply commands that are typically designed to automate the execution of tasks on a large scale. Launching a script to reduce all weapon reload times by X% would thus be simple, and would leave no traces other than the consequences of its changes. By contrast, adding this new system you are proposing wouldn't simply be executing a script, it would be changing the game's design, and adding a whole new factor tied to an existing system. Because your proposal would include this whole new layer of complexity and scaling, it would in fact be an order of magnitude more complicated than simply changing reload times by some set amount.

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

And as far as having "plenty enough mods and frame abilities" Please make a list of the plethora of these abilities and mods... Because I literally just posted a picture of all the reload-related mods in the game, and I can only think of two warframe abilities that affect reload speeds.

Sure:

• For mods we have:
  • Quickdraw and its Primed variant.
  • Fast Hands and its Primed variant.
  • Depleted Reload.
  • Tactical Pump.
  • Chilling Reload.
  • Stunning Speed.
  • Seeking Fury.
  • Tactical Reload.
  • Lock and Load.
  • Eject Magazine
• So most guns have at least three ways of reducing reloads. On top of this, for frame abilities we have:
  • Chroma's Elemental Ward (35% reload speed bonus unmodded, affects allies).
  • Harrow's Penance (70% reload speed bonus unmodded).
  • Mesa's Marksman's Dexterity (25% bonus reload speed for one-handed sidearms).
  • Volt's Speed (17% reload speed bonus unmodded, affects allies).

So yeah, there are options.

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

The second dream is locked behind MR progression. A lot more content than you've realized, is locked behind MR progression (even if it's just by virtue of having to level up the gear you need, like amps or better weapons)

... it requires Mastery Rank 3. That is less than the requirement for Sorties, and if you haven't naturally reached MR 3 by the time you completed the Neptune junction, something's fishy. Meanwhile, the game does not ask players to be MR 27, or MR 20, or even MR 16 to unlock all of its content. The highest MR gate is MR 15 for the Aklex Prime, meaning you could play less than a third of all the game's MR-providing content and still be able to access everything Warframe has to offer. Meanwhile, you're proposing to add on a layer of permanent combat buffs that would go way past that.

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

That's part of game progression.

Power creep is not by any stretch the only means of marking progression, and Warframe has gone by providing progression just fine without giving higher-MR players more combat bonuses.

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

I see your point about "incentivizing purchases" but then what do you call the perks we already get with a higher MR?

... not combat bonuses? You may gain more Standing per day and be able to make more trades, but ultimately player MR has no bearing on how powerful they are within a mission past a certain point, certainly not in ways lower-MR players can achieve as well.

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

But hey sure, don't tie this with MR, propose another alternative instead.

... I already did?

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

If your entire proposal is to just flip a switch between new players and regular Warframe, then you'd need another system that would either operate off of a single MR threshold, or function based on some other trigger.

"Some other trigger" here being as simple as completing a junction or finishing a quest. Again, this is assuming one wants to give newer and more experienced players different reload speeds, which I heavily disagree with.

33 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Btw, yes it is snobby when the only feedback you guys have to say is basically what amounts to  "no you're wrong, stop asking for that, it's a bad idea" or "i don't like your idea"

Just say that instead, if that's what you mean. It's much shorter, straight to the point, and saves us both a lot of time 🙂

This is perhaps the most immature reply I have ever seen on this forum. If all you're hearing from the many criticisms people have given to you, including detailed explanations of their position that you yourself have responded to, is that people are just snobs who have some grudge against you or what you're suggesting, then you are quite literally incapable of handling criticism. It is massively dishonest on your part, not to mention disrespectful, to make this claim literally right after you engage in complex enough discussion of arguments I've made to be able to categorically refute the fact that my entire criticism boils down to "I don't like your idea".

We have clashed before on these very same grounds, but really, you need to start taking a good, hard look at your behavior on here, because it is in no way acceptable: putting aside how unsavory it is of you to double, let alone triple post on threads when you could simply edit your prior responses and take up less space, you are demonstrably attempting to dominate conversation and talk over everyone else, particularly the ones who disagree with what you have to say. When it does come to addressing disagreement, you immediately leap to accusations of character and attribution of negative intention, as if nobody could possibly disagree with you on good faith. You're not just stifling productive conversation, you are actively throttling every discussion you are participating it while warping it around you. It's not even about the topic of conversation anymore, it's just the Maka.Bones show 24/7 so long as you're around, and that is not okay. I am visibly not the only one telling you this, either, and unless you change and give others room to speak, it's only going to be a matter of time until people cotton on and stop giving you the oxygen of attention.

[Maka.Bones]

35 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So first off, you don't seem to understand what scripts are, as scripts are simply commands that are typically designed to automate the execution of tasks on a large scale. Launching a script to reduce all weapon reload times by X% would thus be simple, and would leave no traces other than the consequences of its changes. By contrast, adding this new system you are proposing wouldn't simply be executing a script, it would be changing the game's design, and adding a whole new factor tied to an existing system. Because your proposal would include this whole new layer of complexity and scaling, it would in fact be an order of magnitude more complicated than simply changing reload times by some set amount.

Scripts are literally a line of code. 

But I can understand your point on how adding something that changes a game dynamic is more complicated, than just changing the values within existing scripts. 

35 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Quote

And as far as having "plenty enough mods and frame abilities" Please make a list of the plethora of these abilities and mods... Because I literally just posted a picture of all the reload-related mods in the game, and I can only think of two warframe abilities that affect reload speeds.

Sure:

• For mods we have:
  • Quickdraw and its Primed variant.
  • Fast Hands and its Primed variant.
  • Depleted Reload.
  • Tactical Pump.
  • Chilling Reload.
  • Stunning Speed.
  • Seeking Fury.
  • Tactical Reload.
  • Lock and Load.
  • Eject Magazine
• So most guns have at least three ways of reducing reloads. On top of this, for frame abilities we have:
  • Chroma's Elemental Ward (35% reload speed bonus unmodded, affects allies).
  • Harrow's Penance (70% reload speed bonus unmodded).
  • Mesa's Marksman's Dexterity (25% bonus reload speed for one-handed sidearms).
  • Volt's Speed (17% reload speed bonus unmodded, affects allies).

So yeah, there are options.

Ignore all of the mods which "reload while holstered" they're just a gimmick. You can't practically rely on that while being surrounded by enemies, or in a fast-progression mission/map.  (it would remove 3/10 so it would leave 7)

But even when you include those, we only have 10 total mods.... Only one of them works on regular rifles. ONLY ONE

meanwhile we have 30-50 damage-related mods for each weapon category.... but only 1-3 reload mods.  That isn't "plenty" that's "scarce"

35 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

Btw, yes it is snobby when the only feedback you guys have to say is basically what amounts to  "no you're wrong, stop asking for that, it's a bad idea" or "i don't like your idea"

Just say that instead, if that's what you mean. It's much shorter, straight to the point, and saves us both a lot of time 🙂

This is perhaps the most immature reply I have ever seen on this forum. If all you're hearing from the many criticisms people have given to you, including detailed explanations of their position that you yourself have responded to, is that people are just snobs who have some grudge against you or what you're suggesting, then you are quite literally incapable of handling criticism. It is massively dishonest on your part, not to mention disrespectful, to make this claim literally right after you engage in complex enough discussion of arguments I've made to be able to categorically refute the fact that my entire criticism boils down to "I don't like your idea".

We have clashed before on these very same grounds, but really, you need to start taking a good, hard look at your behavior on here, because it is in no way acceptable: putting aside how unsavory it is of you to double, let alone triple post on threads when you could simply edit your prior responses and take up less space, you are demonstrably attempting to dominate conversation and talk over everyone else, particularly the ones who disagree with what you have to say. When it does come to addressing disagreement, you immediately leap to accusations of character and attribution of negative intention, as if nobody could possibly disagree with you on good faith. You're not just stifling productive conversation, you are actively throttling every discussion you are participating it while warping it around you. It's not even about the topic of conversation anymore, it's just the Maka.Bones show 24/7 so long as you're around, and that is not okay. I am visibly not the only one telling you this, either, and unless you change and give others room to speak, it's only going to be a matter of time until people cotton on and stop giving you the oxygen of attention.

What's this even supposed to be? You're missing the point of what I said there. Please get to the point, and stop with the embellishments or the extra "fluff"

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

29 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Quote

But hey sure, don't tie this with MR, propose another alternative instead.

... I already did?

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If your entire proposal is to just flip a switch between new players and regular Warframe, then you'd need another system that would either operate off of a single MR threshold, or function based on some other trigger.

"Some other trigger" here being as simple as completing a junction or finishing a quest. Again, this is assuming one wants to give newer and more experienced players different reload speeds, which I heavily disagree with.

My comment was actually already in agreement with *your* proposal of an alternate to MR.

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yes it would increase the DPS, and that's kind of the point. I don't need my gun to do ALL the damage; there are plenty of mods and powers for that already. What i'd like is for weapons to have less reload speed. 

What exactly is wrong with that? Your argument for "breaking the dps in the game" isn't valid (it's moot) because nuke abilities already break the dps in the game, and they're what i'm trying to compete with.... Without taking them away from players who enjoy them. 

The argument I have against it is that the weapons are balanced with their reloads. Both Primary and Secondary weapons were all literally only updated for their DPS including reload speed adjustments in many cases, for the beginning of 2018, it is not a mechanic that you're going to remove just because you think that you want a boost to your gunplay style.

Of course my argument is valid, because the weapons aren't related to the Abilities in terms of balanced damage. The weapons are balanced against the weapons. That's why I was pointing out that the point you had about rewarding nuke-to-win didn't matter: because the weapons wouldn't have any affect on the nuke-to-win game play at all. That would still exist.

But if you really want me to address the first half of your tl;dr section, here's the answer;

You're prefacing the entire point with 'If this game was a more tactical shooter' which is the most biased point of view you could have chosen, trying to say that reloads don't make sense in a horde-based shooter is like trying to say that the nukes don't have a place.

In fact, it's kind of funny that you even bring up Doom as one of these, because aside from the double-barrel shotguns, every other weapon in the game doesn't have a reload. You just pick up ammo and keep firing. So your choice of example for a 'tactical' shooter, might want to be narrowed a bit.

In every horde-based shooter around your weapons have limitations. Whether it's ammo, fire rate, area of effect or even just overheating mechanics on some of them causing you to have a cool down for over-using it.

In Warframe, that limitation on your weapons is a combination of the base stats, their supplemental effects, and how much you can't fire them in the form of a the triple stats of fire rate, magazine size and reload.

Taking away the reload would just cause DE to balance the weapons on something different, like the fire rate and magazine size. So you would take a weapon with 3 second reload and adjust it to reload in 1 second, but to balance that, DE would now change it so you have only a half of the magazine size, and fire it slightly faster, meaning you reload 3 times as often. You would spend just as much time reloading, and instead you would be complaining that the magazine size was too small.

Without modding for one stat or the other, you would have a net-zero result.

Again, DE balances weapons based on other weapons, not based on what a Warframe can do overall, because while one Warframe might have a nuke that negates much of the need for a weapon in the first place, another Warframe may have an ability that only functions at its best when combined with weapons, or it might have abilities that are all related to buffs/debuffs/team support and so on and their weapons may be their primary source of damage. The frames vary so much that the only thing that weapons can be balanced against is themselves.

So yeah, I still say your argument is moot, because of those two key points:

1. It wouldn't make the weapons better, DE would just rebalance them so they annoy you with more frequent reloads so you spend exactly the same amount of time reloading as now.

2. It wouldn't have the effect of making weapons any more or any less viable choices for use in this horde-based game, because they aren't balanced against the other game functions, only against DE's weapon power rankings.

You wouldn't change anything with this, the game would stay the same and you would be left just as disappointed in gun-play.

[Maka.Bones]

22 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The argument I have against it is that the weapons are balanced with their reloads. Both Primary and Secondary weapons were all literally only updated for their DPS including reload speed adjustments in many cases, for the beginning of 2018, it is not a mechanic that you're going to remove just because you think that you want a boost to your gunplay style.

Of course my argument is valid, because the weapons aren't related to the Abilities in terms of balanced damage. The weapons are balanced against the weapons. That's why I was pointing out that the point you had about rewarding nuke-to-win didn't matter: because the weapons wouldn't have any affect on the nuke-to-win game play at all. That would still exist.

But if you really want me to address the first half of your tl;dr section, here's the answer;

You're prefacing the entire point with 'If this game was a more tactical shooter' which is the most biased point of view you could have chosen, trying to say that reloads don't make sense in a horde-based shooter is like trying to say that the nukes don't have a place.

In fact, it's kind of funny that you even bring up Doom as one of these, because aside from the double-barrel shotguns, every other weapon in the game doesn't have a reload. You just pick up ammo and keep firing. So your choice of example for a 'tactical' shooter, might want to be narrowed a bit.

In every horde-based shooter around your weapons have limitations. Whether it's ammo, fire rate, area of effect or even just overheating mechanics on some of them causing you to have a cool down for over-using it.

In Warframe, that limitation on your weapons is a combination of the base stats, their supplemental effects, and how much you can't fire them in the form of a the triple stats of fire rate, magazine size and reload.

Taking away the reload would just cause DE to balance the weapons on something different, like the fire rate and magazine size. So you would take a weapon with 3 second reload and adjust it to reload in 1 second, but to balance that, DE would now change it so you have only a half of the magazine size, and fire it slightly faster, meaning you reload 3 times as often. You would spend just as much time reloading, and instead you would be complaining that the magazine size was too small.

Without modding for one stat or the other, you would have a net-zero result.

Again, DE balances weapons based on other weapons, not based on what a Warframe can do overall, because while one Warframe might have a nuke that negates much of the need for a weapon in the first place, another Warframe may have an ability that only functions at its best when combined with weapons, or it might have abilities that are all related to buffs/debuffs/team support and so on and their weapons may be their primary source of damage. The frames vary so much that the only thing that weapons can be balanced against is themselves.

So yeah, I still say your argument is moot, because of those two key points:

1. It wouldn't make the weapons better, DE would just rebalance them so they annoy you with more frequent reloads so you spend exactly the same amount of time reloading as now.

2. It wouldn't have the effect of making weapons any more or any less viable choices for use in this horde-based game, because they aren't balanced against the other game functions, only against DE's weapon power rankings.

You wouldn't change anything with this, the game would stay the same and you would be left just as disappointed in gun-play.

Ok I see what you're explaining now. You're considering weapons as their own separate system, meanwhile I'm just considering a "kills per second" ratio, or the "total damage/kills" at the end of the game. 

Can't DE/game mechanics consider abilities *AND* weapons as the same tool for the sake of level progression? I.E. they both enable the player to progress through the content. 

Edit: Also, attaching a "global reload speed"  (or better weapon handling/action) to a form of game/skill progression, would tie in with the existing game-scaling. So I still don't see why they would need to "re-balance" weapons in another way

Your example with doom not having a reload speed (MH does btw) misses the point i'm making. But it also makes me wonder even more why they would add long reloads to a hordes game, meanwhile they're inexistent in doom. Did unreal tournament have long reloads? It's been so long since I played it, that I can't remember x.x

I'm gonna sleep, so i'll reply tomorrow. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

33 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Scripts are literally a line of code. 

Practically anything in a coding environment is "a line of code". It is about as descriptive a statement as calling any physical object "a bunch of atoms", and as such does not do a good job of conveying any understanding of the subject of discussion.

Quote

Remove all of the mods which "reload while holstered" they're just a gimmick. You can't practically rely on that while being surrounded by enemies.  (it would remove 3/10 so it would leave 7)

Sure, but those mods still exist, and you can in fact rely on them thanks to the extra two weapons at your disposal, surrounded or otherwise.

Quote

But even when you include those, we only have 10 total mods.... Only one of them works on regular rifles. ONLY ONE

And accelerates reload speeds by 55%. This is also putting aside Arcane Momentum, an Arcane that speeds up reloads on snipers and is especially popular in Eidolon hunts. Which non-assault, non-sniper rifles have problems with their reload times, exactly?

Quote

meanwhile we have 30-50 damage-related mods for each weapon category.... but only 1-3 reload mods.  That isn't "plenty" that's "scarce"

Damage is a much broader mechanic than reloading, and the game is oversaturated with damage mods. Asking for just as bloated a selection of reload mods to match this isn't really going to make your request look any more reasonable.

Quote

What's this even supposed to be?

The truth. Your attitude is obnoxious and does not make people want to engage in polite conversation with you, as can be seen with not just mine, but several other people's replies. Do you really think you're behaving properly on here? If so, why do so many people seem to take issue with the way you post?

32 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

My comment, was actually already in agreement with *your* proposal of an alternate to MR.

It was, but then put the onus of supplementing an alternative solution onto me, when I already had done so, as noted in the quote. You don't get to start an argument just because you believed I didn't read some part of your post, when you clearly don't seem to pay much attention to others' posts.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Teridax68

[Birdframe_Prime]

42 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Can't DE/game mechanics consider abilities *AND* weapons as the same tool for the sake of level progression? I.E. they both enable the player to progress through the content.

I don't think they can, to be fair. Abilities vary so vastly, as I mentioned.

If you look at a Zephyr, with three abilities that do nothing/minimal effect to enemies and one ability that does affect the enemies, but only damages based on your weapons, and compare her to a Nova where two of her abilities deal damage that's boosted by weapons, and then compare that to a Harrow with absolutely zero damage from abilities and massive boosting to weapons and mechanics revolving around weapons...

And then compare those to a Nidus, a Saryn, an Octavia...

It just doesn't equate. Abilities are just too different from frame to frame.

42 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Also, attaching a "global reload speed" to MR would tie in with the existing game-scaling

What game scaling with MR?

MR literally only has the weakest of utility possible, DE have been on record saying that MR doesn't matter and shouldn't matter to game play at all. You get higher caps on standing gain, you get bonus Capacity on frames and weapons at rank 0, but no total bonus, just starting, and you get more trades in a day.

Tying an actual game play boosting, damage boosting, mechanic to our MR would be a ridiculous step at this stage.

Try this instead:

During a DevStream question, Scott and Steve both said that the things they would do over on the modding system are the high percentage base damage mods. They would have not put in things like Serration, Hornet Strike and so on, and would have made the weapons themselves scale up their base damage on the rank from 0-30.

The reason they didn't do this, is they didn't want a weapon you picked up to perform any differently when it wasn't modded. No mods, no difference. It's the same principle as they had for the Prime frames versus the regular frames. Yes, minor stat increases to make the base frame a little more desirable, and to prevent it being a skin-change, but the abilities and game play of the frames would be no different given no modding or even the same modding.

If they were to go back and do this, instead, remove all of the mods like Serration that add only base damage, then this would automatically free up a mod slot for more utility or supplementals, or elementals. This would easily free up space for reload mods in the system and the basic modding result would give us better weapons overall.

But trying to say that simply reducing reload speed across the board would solve the problems you want to solve?

That's kind of weird, man. Just weird.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Birdframe_Prime

[Test-995]

What if we can shoot the bullets all the times even in the ground combat?

Yeah, that's great, fissure buff is definitely a best part of the game.

So give me infinite magazines for every weapon, fissure buffs as passive!

Also i don't like something important to scale with MR, since MR isn't a thing that meant to be grind (you won't get any performance benefit from it beyond MR15, also do noted that it is stupidly painful to grind)

[Steel_Rook]

Eh. Some weapons have slow reloads, it's part of the game. Frankly, I feel Warframe can use a few more "machinegun" type weapons with exceptionally large magazines but very lengthy reloads. Asking to reduce reload speeds across the board unilaterally is not reasonable as far as I'm concerned. Not only does that undermine a legitimate gameplay and balance mechanic, it also fails to account for what happens to weapons with already fast reload times, like the Viper. Once you push reload down far enough, it becomes faster than your ability to pick a target and sight in on it, effectively giving you an infinite magazine (up until you run out of ammo). I've already seen this happen with Payday 2's "Fast Pull" magazines making small-magazine rifles feel more consistent than LMGs with 200 rounds in the box.

In fact, I'd go the opposite way. Rather than marginalising what few weapon handling and behaviour mechanics we do have in Warframe, I'd rather lean into them harder. Make accuracy mean something, make recoil more prominent such that people would need to learn to manage it, make magazine size and reload speed more central to how a weapon feels. Weapon performance in Warframe already leans too far into just min/maxing behind-the-scenes stats while most weapons end up handling the same. Drawing a starker distinction between fast-reloading and slow-reloading weapons is not a bad thing.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

I agree with OP. As someone who has done competitive shooting, the reload times have always annoyed me.   And I also agree that progress in reloading should be preserved if interrupted. If I already did the animation of removing the spent magazine, whyTF would I have to do it again because I dodged an attack before putting a fresh magazine in?

 

[Steel_Rook]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

I agree with OP. As someone who has done competitive shooting, the reload times have always annoyed me.   And I also agree that progress in reloading should be preserved if interrupted. If I already did the animation of removing the spent magazine, whyTF would I have to do it again because I dodged an attack before putting a fresh magazine in?

This I agree with, though that would also require that your weapon's ammo is voided at the start of a reload. I suspect this is more of a technical limitation, since inserting breaks in what seems like a monolithic reload animation might be a bit more work. I definitely agree with preserving progress if interrupted, though, especially for longer reloads.

I'm not sure how well your experience in competitive shooting applies to Warframe, though. Have you done competitive shooting with belt-fed LMGs and Pirate cannons? Because a lot of the gear our Warframes use has weird and complicated reload mechanisms.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

 

I'm not sure how well your experience in competitive shooting applies to Warframe, though. Have you done competitive shooting with belt-fed LMGs and Pirate cannons? Because a lot of the gear our Warframes use has weird and complicated reload mechanisms. 

Hah, not many belt fed or blunderbuss competitions but the majority of weapons in WF are magazine or battery style.  The pirate cannon actually already preserves reload  - you can load one shot into the zarr and shoot it immediately, or if interrupted you pick up where you left off.  In any event, I'm sure if there were belt or blunder competitions people would find ways to speed up the process and/or preserve progress.

 

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

4 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

My comment, was actually already in agreement with *your* proposal of an alternate to MR.

It was, but then put the onus of supplementing an alternative solution onto me, when I already had done so, as noted in the quote. You don't get to start an argument just because you believed I didn't read some part of your post, when you clearly don't seem to pay much attention to others' posts.

Lol you even think i'm trying to argue, while i'm saying that I was agreeing with your suggestion

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The truth. Your attitude is obnoxious and does not make people want to engage in polite conversation with you, as can be seen with not just mine, but several other people's replies. Do you really think you're behaving properly on here? If so, why do so many people seem to take issue with the way you post?

Then leave? why are you still here, commenting? lol I never asked you to come, not am I making you 

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But trying to say that simply reducing reload speed across the board would solve the problems you want to solve?

That's kind of weird, man. Just weird.

How is it weird, when it's literally the issue I've been repeatedly having? lol

And earlier you said you don't think DE can buff something without "balancing" it somehow else. So is your entire argument is just based on the assumption that DE will later nerf something else...? 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Lol you even think i'm trying to argue, while i'm saying that I was agreeing with your suggestion

You clearly are, though. Which part of your post has not been trying to argue?

2 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Then leave? why are you still here, commenting? lol I never asked you to come, not am I making you 

So first off, my first comment on this thread did not even address you, it was just an aside directed at someone else who had been criticizing your thread, though that certainly posed no impediment to you jumping on that minor remark I made regarding your thread to start this argument. Second... leave what? You are the problem here, and me getting out of your way isn't going to stop anything. You don't get to dictate to others when they get to talk on a public forum, nor do you get to force them out just because you don't personally like them. It would do everyone good if you improved your behavior, and started listening to criticism.

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Eh. Some weapons have slow reloads, it's part of the game. Frankly, I feel Warframe can use a few more "machinegun" type weapons with exceptionally large magazines but very lengthy reloads. Asking to reduce reload speeds across the board unilaterally is not reasonable as far as I'm concerned. Not only does that undermine a legitimate gameplay and balance mechanic, it also fails to account for what happens to weapons with already fast reload times, like the Viper. Once you push reload down far enough, it becomes faster than your ability to pick a target and sight in on it, effectively giving you an infinite magazine (up until you run out of ammo). I've already seen this happen with Payday 2's "Fast Pull" magazines making small-magazine rifles feel more consistent than LMGs with 200 rounds in the box.

In fact, I'd go the opposite way. Rather than marginalising what few weapon handling and behaviour mechanics we do have in Warframe, I'd rather lean into them harder. Make accuracy mean something, make recoil more prominent such that people would need to learn to manage it, make magazine size and reload speed more central to how a weapon feels. Weapon performance in Warframe already leans too far into just min/maxing behind-the-scenes stats while most weapons end up handling the same. Drawing a starker distinction between fast-reloading and slow-reloading weapons is not a bad thing.

I mean... Yeah if we had *actual* LMG type weapons, then sure why not? (Though i think archwing guns fall into that category type somewhat) But that's sort of my point; these long reloads don't really make sense for non-LMG types. I'm mostly talking about weapons like the soma, Aklex Prime, or the Strun Wraith btw. They're magazine fed, or manually fed with shells (which should't take that long unless they're just jamming... i mean sure those body parts could get stuck in there sometimes but that's not an actual game mechanic atm lol)

However if the game took a more "tactical shooter approach" then yeah, I'd also appreciate leaning more into weapon performance/skill. It would be cool if warframe had a skill-based system, similar to borderlands which improves stats slightly based on how much you use the weapon. 

Edit: I wouldn't mind voiding part of the magazine--if we reload before the magazine is completely empty--as long as we had faster reloads, and our reload progress was also saved. It would make sense to lose a few rounds of the amo we withdrew by preemptively reloading. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You clearly are, though. Which part of your post has not been trying to argue?

So first off, my first comment on this thread did not even address you, it was just an aside directed at someone else who had been criticizing your thread, though that certainly posed no impediment to you jumping on that minor remark I made regarding your thread to start this argument. Second... leave what? You are the problem here, and me getting out of your way isn't going to stop anything. You don't get to dictate to others when they get to talk on a public forum, nor do you get to force them out just because you don't personally like them. It would do everyone good if you improved your behavior, and started listening to criticism.

The part where I said "But hey sure, don't tie this with MR, propose another alternative instead.".... That wasn't a statement saying that you needed to propose another alternative; I was implying that I wasn't holding you back from making new suggestions, like you already had. 

You already said I'm annoying and people don't like talking to me, so why are you still here talking to me? Please leave already; I'm the one who started this post, so of course I would be dominantly active here. I don't go and jump into other people's posts just to tell them they're annoying though lol

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

26 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

The part where I said "But hey sure, don't tie this with MR, propose another alternative instead."

And which as noted already, is itself confrontational in how it demands alternative solutions on my part, and also disrespectful in how it asks for answers that had already been provided. Don't pretend you weren't just trying to continue the argument.

26 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

You already said I'm annoying and people don't like talking to me, so why are you still here talking to me? Please leave already; I'm the one who started this post, so of course I would be dominantly active here. I don't go and jump into other people's posts just to tell them they're annoying though lol

Except you have and you do: you're not pleasant to talk to because you try to dominate discussion regardless of which thread you're in, not just you're own threads, and you turn any conversation into an argument and cast aspersions upon other people's character at the slightest disagreement. There is a difference between being "dominantly active" and intentionally double- and triple-posting just to make your own posts take up more space, a crass tactic you have employed on other threads, and not just your own. I am still talking to you because you have continued to argue: if you didn't want to have an argument, you should not have picked one to begin with, let alone multiple one-on-one arguments with the majority of people who came to your thread, and if you want to stop having arguments... stop prolonging the argument.

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

Hah, not many belt fed or blunderbuss competitions but the majority of weapons in WF are magazine or battery style.  The pirate cannon actually already preserves reload  - you can load one shot into the zarr and shoot it immediately, or if interrupted you pick up where you left off.  In any event, I'm sure if there were belt or blunder competitions people would find ways to speed up the process and/or preserve progress.

Granted, I was being facetious 🙂 I was more trying to highlight how weird some of the reload animations can be in Warframe, though you're right in that a lot of them are just basic magazine swaps. Honestly, I wish we had a few more complex, more elaborate reload animations, featuring more manipulation of individual weapon parts. One of the reasons a lot of weapon reloads feel as slow as they is because the reload isn't particularly complex, your Warframe is just executing it in slow motion. Reloading the Supra, for instance, involves just yanking a top-mounted magazine and replacing it. That has no business taking 3 full seconds, but it does because "balance." The Supra is clearly intended to have LMG-style balance, so 180-round magazine and a 3-second reload.

Now compare this to a generic LMG reload from The Division which takes nearly 6 seconds. That reload features opening the top, cycling the charging handle, removing the belt, placing a new belt, closing the top and cycling the charging handle again. Yes, it's agonisingly slow, but at least it makes sense given how many things your character has to do. Warframe doesn't have reload animations quite that long, but it also doesn't have reload animations even remotely that complex. And it really should. If a weapon is going to have a long reload, make it look complex enough to take that long.

Plus, it's a missed opportunity. We have these weird alien nonsense guns... Yet all you need to reload them is yank one small bit and stick in another. Make the animations weird, have us replace large sections of the gun, have it collapse so we can pull out interior pieces, have some kind of complex mechanism requiring us to slide a cam out through crooked groove, etc. Even something as simple as Titanfall had more interesting reloads on the Titan weapons, such as the 40mm grenade launcher rotating a rail into the attached ammo box, then mechanically pulling the ammo belt out of it to load into the side of the gun. And yet here's my Battacor reloading essentially by my Warframe slapping the pistol grip...

 

48 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I mean... Yeah if we had *actual* LMG type weapons, then sure why not? (Though i think archwing guns fall into that category type somewhat) But that's sort of my point; these long reloads don't really make sense for non-LMG types. I'm mostly talking about weapons like the soma, Aklex Prime, or the Strun Wraith btw. They're magazine fed, or manually fed with shells (which should't take that long unless they're just jamming... i mean sure those body parts could get stuck in there sometimes but that's not an actual game mechanic atm lol)

While that's true in terms of visuals (as I covered above), we do have quite a few weapons which fit into an LMG role. The Soma, actually, is one of them. I also count the Gorgon, the Supra and the Tenora at the very least in the same LMG category. They're all characterised by having large magazines, somewhat poor accuracy and rate of fire spool-up, with the Tenora additionally having "regressive aim spread," i.e. growing more accurate the longer you fire. All of these weapons encourage you to fire them in long, continuous bursts, which naturally leads to large magazines and slow reloads.

As to the Strun (and the Corinth), we're looking at per-shell reloads. Personally, I'd like to see more of those, rather than few, as it's an interesting mechanic. It leads to generally substantially slow full reloads, but with the ability to reload partially and interrupt your reload to fire. It's a decent tradeoff, in my experience. The Aklex Prime is a separate issue. All of the Akimbo secondaries are balanced with substantially longer reloads and substantially worse accuracy in order to not completely replace their respective single versions. The Aklex, for example, has double the magazine size of the Lex and substantially higher fire rate (high enough that I didn't bother with a rate of fire mod on the former, but did on the latter), in return for worse accuracy and a slower reload. Again - double the magazine, double the reload. And even then Akimbo weapons still typically work better than their single counterparts anyway.

Point being, weapons tend to be balanced for reload and magazine size reasonably well, against each other at least. Their visuals don't always match the intended design, such as the Aklex Prime having a very basic reload animation just played slowly. Mind you, I'm not saying ALL of them are well-balanced, just that there are balance considerations in place already. Some of these weapons are intended to be slow to reload as a tradeoff for their other strengths. I mean, most of the weapons you mentions are already REALLY powerful, so the slower reloads are there to offset their overall good performance.

[Maka.Bones]

20 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And which as noted already, is itself confrontational in how it demands alternative solutions on my part, and also disrespectful in how it asks for answers that had already been provided. Don't pretend you weren't just trying to continue the argument.

Except you have and you do: you're not pleasant to talk to because you try to dominate discussion regardless of which thread you're in, not just you're own threads, and you turn any conversation into an argument and cast aspersions upon other people's character at the slightest disagreement. There is a difference between being "dominantly active" and intentionally double- and triple-posting just to make your own posts take up more space, a crass tactic you have employed on other threads, and not just your own. I am still talking to you because you have continued to argue: if you didn't want to have an argument, you should not have picked one to begin with, let alone multiple one-on-one arguments with the majority of people who came to your thread, and if you want to stop having arguments... stop prolonging the argument.

I'm not pretending anything. I even added it to the original post, to have it linked to some sort of story/quest progression as an alternative. I even agreed that if it's actually easier to change all reload values, then i wouldn't be opposed to that either. How is that continuing to prolong an argument?

Spoiler

You seem to have some sort of vendetta against me, where regardless of what I say you'll think that I'm trying to argue or you imagine I'm having the worst intentions possible. Instead of asking me what I mean/want, you go ahead and assume what i'm doing or what my intents are--even after I've literally been clarifying them to you. I've literally been telling you that I was agreeing with you. I WAS AGREEING WITH YOU, AND ENCOURAGING FURTHER ALTERNATE SUGGESTIONS. 

Now In regards to the rest of what you've said:

I've literally only been "dominant in 2 posts that I didn't create myself; the melee megathread (because someone started comparing DE to EA and people were defending him) and the wisp megathread, which I already backed off after you said I was being overwhelming/annoying.  Only two. If you go to my "activity" you would be able to see many other posts in which i've commented in without being "dominant"

This is my post however. So i'm kind of supposed to be active on here, and if you don't like that you can leave. So far you haven't been saying anything related to weapon-action, or weapon handling. Since you're getting off-topic, I suggest you leave, unless you have anymore ideas you'd like to contribute. 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

38 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

How is it weird, when it's literally the issue I've been repeatedly having?

Good morning.

Also, the solution is weird, not the issue. Your issue is that you're finding guns to not be as enjoyable as you think they should be because you don't like reloading.

The answer to that is actually 'well yeah, that does suck for you, but you're not going to change that, because it's a balance mechanic for weapons'.

My suggestion was to shift what you're looking at, turn that problem around and look at it from another side, where it would be easy to use those reload mods if you freed up a slot in the way I suggested (the way that DESteve suggested).

You're never going to stop DE from balancing their weapons for DPS by using the combination of magazine size, fire rate and reload times. That's something you have to give up on. But if you were to suggest removing some of the mods that we find 'essential', (like base damage, because reload isn't considered one of the 'essential' mods), you could argue that the modding space would be actually able to have more utility and less focus on damage boosting.

49 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

So is your entire argument is just based on the assumption that DE will later nerf something else...?

Kind of yes, kind of no. My argument is based on the fact that, because DE have already gone and set their balance using reload speed as part of this, you're not going to be able to remove that without them stopping you from getting higher DPS by nerfing the other stats.

Like a see-saw, you lower the reload to make it better, they make the other stuff worse to compensate.

They want a weapon to have a specific damage per second, with specific capabilities to mod for better. So if they were to comply with your idea and make reload speed reduced across the board, then they would make sure that the DPS of weapons stayed the same in a way that's equally annoying.

Let's do a little theory;

If DE want a weapon to have 1000 DPS, they could make it only fire 1 round that deals 1000 damage, and takes the rest of 1 second to reload. Like a bolt-action. They could make it deal 500 per shot, like the Tigris Duplex Auto, and take the rest of the second to reload.

If, however, they wanted it to have 1000 DPS as a magazine-fed rifle, what they could also do is have a magazine of 10, where every bullet deals 500 damage each at a rate of 3 per second which clears the magazine in 3.3 seconds and then has a reload speed of 1.7 seconds, so the total time you've spent firing all the bullets and reloading adds up to 5 seconds, and you've dealt 1000 damage per second over time.

And the same is true for longer reloads. You have a 3 second reload on something, it's likely because the DPS is throttled by it, because the actual damage the bullets deal out while you empty the magazine is higher than the DPS they want you to achieve, so you need to spend 3 seconds between magazines to achieve that specific average DPS.

That's why the site warframe-builder has a stat for Burst as well as Sustained damage. The Sustain, the DPS, is what DE are balancing, not the Burst.

A weapon like the Exergis has an immense Burst damage, because of the single-shot nature, but because it has a reload speed that's quite high, it then specifically lowers the DPS capable to what DE actually wants it to have.

So, long-story-short.

If you reduce the reload time, DE will definitely balance back, they will definitely nerf the weapons in some other way to compensate. They will balance the DPS.

They want the DPS that these weapons have, and they want the reload speed to be part of it, you're not going to change that.

[Maka.Bones]

9 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

While that's true in terms of visuals (as I covered above), we do have quite a few weapons which fit into an LMG role. The Soma, actually, is one of them. I also count the Gorgon, the Supra and the Tenora at the very least in the same LMG category. They're all characterised by having large magazines, somewhat poor accuracy and rate of fire spool-up, with the Tenora additionally having "regressive aim spread," i.e. growing more accurate the longer you fire. All of these weapons encourage you to fire them in long, continuous bursts, which naturally leads to large magazines and slow reloads.

I always saw the soma as an "AK" or an "AR" which does actually validate your claim. However an AR or an AK doesn't take 3s to reload (like the soma does). I see your point though, and I stand corrected in terms of weapon classification. 

 

12 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

As to the Strun (and the Corinth), we're looking at per-shell reloads. Personally, I'd like to see more of those, rather than few, as it's an interesting mechanic. It leads to generally substantially slow full reloads, but with the ability to reload partially and interrupt your reload to fire. It's a decent tradeoff, in my experience. The Aklex Prime is a separate issue. All of the Akimbo secondaries are balanced with substantially longer reloads and substantially worse accuracy in order to not completely replace their respective single versions. The Aklex, for example, has double the magazine size of the Lex and substantially higher fire rate (high enough that I didn't bother with a rate of fire mod on the former, but did on the latter), in return for worse accuracy and a slower reload. Again - double the magazine, double the reload. And even then Akimbo weapons still typically work better than their single counterparts anyway.

Dude yes, I love per-shell reloads. However the strun is another weapon that takes unrealistically long to reload (5s) 

14 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Point being, weapons tend to be balanced for reload and magazine size reasonably well, against each other at least. Their visuals don't always match the intended design, such as the Aklex Prime having a very basic reload animation just played slowly. Mind you, I'm not saying ALL of them are well-balanced, just that there are balance considerations in place already. Some of these weapons are intended to be slow to reload as a tradeoff for their other strengths. I mean, most of the weapons you mentions are already REALLY powerful, so the slower reloads are there to offset their overall good performance.

I understand your point of Balancing stats with the weapons. However, that falls through when considering this is becoming a "hordes shooter" not a strategic shooter.... which is why I suggested better weapon handling, with increased use/MR/progression. Seriously, as the game keeps advancing /missions prolong, they keep throwing more and more enemies... that's why so many people resort to "nuke" abilities rather than skillful gunplay (which is the first point I make). So those balancing stats don't really hold up to the game, if they don't enable a means to actually play more skillfully while keeping up with the flow of enemies.