Universal Weapon handling Buff (like reload speed) with weapon use and/or a paragon system/MR Progression Tiers

[Maka.Bones]

55 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Good morning.

Also, the solution is weird, not the issue. Your issue is that you're finding guns to not be as enjoyable as you think they should be because you don't like reloading.

The answer to that is actually 'well yeah, that does suck for you, but you're not going to change that, because it's a balance mechanic for weapons'.

Good morning! 😄

Lol i mean i guess that's true hahahaha. I prefer a weird solution than just outright more damage. 

55 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

My suggestion was to shift what you're looking at, turn that problem around and look at it from another side, where it would be easy to use those reload mods if you freed up a slot in the way I suggested (the way that DESteve suggested).

I've already considered mods, it's just that we're limited by the lack of them--it would be nice if they introduced more mods like  chilling reload, across all weapon types. Also "new mods" is already something they keep throwing at the game, and it doesn't exactly add a new interesting dynamic. Which is why I came up with a "weird" solution.... yes I'm a "weird" person, but it's boring to simply keep using mods for every problem we have. 

We only have so many mod slots, and some weapons need the damage optimization to keep up with "late game" enemies. So while I can mod to shoot them in the head, I can't keep up with the flow-rate of enemy spawns without using "nukes"....

The "flow-rate" issue is addressed by two things

1) attack speed (which we already have really good mods for, but could still benefit from a larger variety)

and

2) Reload speed (which we're lacking in)

I chose to target reloading, because adding more attack speed would simply redirect the choke-point of the "flow of battle" towards slow reloading. Also because wisp is now a very popular choice of warframe, which gives us a more abundant source of attack speed buffs with more people playing her--but it further makes reloading the slow choke-point of a good battle-flow. 

 

If we ignore the target, Flow in battle is always determined from the individual by 4 things:

1) Damage/Impact (self explanatory)

2) Speed (Attack speed/fire rate)

3) Persistence/supplies (Magazine size/ammo capacity... how many attacks/rounds you hit the enemy with, energy capacity, maintaining the melee multiplier)

4) Recovery (Reload speed, energy regen, the animation delay between melee attacks or stance maneuvers, losing the combo multiplier but building it up quickly due to increased reach)

Edit: Actually it's 5 things, since "accessibility/detection" is required for any of these (like reach, weapon range, projectile speed)

Right now "recovery" is the weaker/unbalanced link. And most of these are related to "weapon handling" which will always be the weakest link, if sufficient damage is present. 

55 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

They want the DPS that these weapons have, and they want the reload speed to be part of it, you're not going to change that.

That's why I'm making this post, asking DE to change it, with consideration to the current flow-rate of enemy spawns and how players are solving their problems by nuking everything. 
Players will continue to find whatever is the easiest gimmick, even if you keep removing them. The better solution would be to continue with hardened enemies, but also provide more variety & diversity with strategies to overcome those enemies. 

I'd prefer more strategic gunplay, or more specialized/controlled melee; better weapon-action is directly related to that.  That's the point of this post.... to ask for that. 

This isn't the first post i've made, with a suggestion that would affect/influence better weapon handling. I'm just trying to give them different ideas to pick from. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

8 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'm not pretending anything. I even added it to the original post, to have it linked to some sort of story/quest progression as an alternative. I even agreed that if it's actually easier to change all reload values, then i wouldn't be opposed to that either. How is that continuing to prolong an argument?

It's you continuing to prolong an argument when your response to me pointing out the solutions I had given out already was to completely ignore the actual proposition made in conversation, and instead purely focus on taking offense to me having done exactly what you had asked me to do. How exactly did you expect your reply to go down?

Quote

11 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

 

  Hide contents

You seem to have some sort of vendetta against me, where regardless of what I say you'll think that I'm trying to argue or you imagine I'm having the worst intentions possible. Instead of asking me what I mean/want, you go ahead and assume what i'm doing or what my intents are--even after I've literally been clarifying them to you. I've literally been telling you that I was agreeing with you. I WAS AGREEING WITH YOU, AND ENCOURAGING FURTHER ALTERNATE SUGGESTIONS. 

 

And if that were true, you'd have simply picked up on the suggestions I made, and we could be discussing those instead, or have concluded the discussion. Instead, as noted above, you decided to turn it into yet another argument. Accusing me of having "some sort of vendetta" against you when it was you, not me who decided to address the other, is utterly childish, and is made all the more ridiculous by the fact that I'm not the only person here pointing out what's wrong with your behavior.

Quote

11 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I've literally only been "dominant in 2 posts that I didn't create myself; the melee megathread (because someone started comparing DE to EA and people were defending him) and the wisp megathread, which I already backed off after you said I was being overwhelming/annoying.  Only two. If you go to my "activity" you would be able to see many other posts in which i've commented in without being "dominant"

Which were already two threads too many, especially considering how they were megathreads designed to receive posts from a very large number of people, not a very large number of posts from yourself exclusively. Visibly, you haven't learned a thing from those instances, as noted by your posts on here, or even those two megathreads where you've still continued to post in profusely. It also took only a cursory look through your post history to see that this problem behavior is far less contained than you claimed, with several more threads in which your posts dominate, featuring a whole lot more spam posts to boot (e.g. The Soma Solution, or that one thread you posted that is literally just a triple post). Looking through, the reception to your posts is generally not all that warm either.

Quote

11 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

This is my post however. So i'm kind of supposed to be active on here, and if you don't like that you can leave.

There is a difference between being active on a thread, and being so desperate to stake out one's territory that you're ready to crap out double- or triple-posts when there is literally no reason to do so. Moreover, being the thread OP does not require you to be dominant on your own thread, and trying to dominate in the way you have kills productive conversation, as has visibly happened here already with you staking out individual arguments with every poster instead of letting others talk with each other.

Quote

11 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

So far you haven't been saying anything related to weapon-action, or weapon handling. Since you're getting off-topic, I suggest you leave, unless you have anymore ideas you'd like to contribute. 

 

But this is a blatant lie, as I have in fact brought up from my very first post here the question of reload speed as one out of many balance levers in a gun's DPS. You are visibly just looking for excuses at this point, particularly as your own replies have been off-topic and intentionally abandoned the topic at hand just to get personal. In this particular case, despite my bringing up the suggestion of a single MR level to make the switch you'd be asking for on multiple occasions, you've utterly refused to discuss this at all, and deliberately ignored said suggestion for the sake of continuing this argument. Beyond this, it is difficult to discuss the topic of reload speed in much greater detail, because you seem to be relying on this bizarre assumption that Warframe just turns into an entirely different game at some stage, when it has the same spawn algorithm overall, and its large enemy numbers occur mainly in specific locations and mission types. 

[Maka.Bones]

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Beyond this, it is difficult to discuss the topic of reload speed in much greater detail, because you seem to be relying on this bizarre assumption that Warframe just turns into an entirely different game at some stage, when it has the same spawn algorithm overall, and its large enemy numbers occur mainly in specific locations and mission types. 

Ok, that's actually a good point.  But this game doesn't have many "strategic shooter" stages, except for spy vaults or "exterminate" missions, or boss fights... the rest of them are pretty much all horde stages.

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

despite my bringing up the suggestion of a single MR level to make the switch you'd be asking for on multiple occasions, you've utterly refused to discuss this at all, and deliberately ignored said suggestion for the sake of continuing this argument.

No, I already added this to the main post.... like 5 posts ago.  Look:

"Or it could be tied to game/quest progression" Like you suggested originally suggested, to not tie into "Mastery rank" as to not make players feel forced to make purchases.... THAT'S WHY I KEEP TELLING YOU THAT I'VE BEEN AGREEING WITH YOU even when you insist that i'm trying to argue. 

Here I even added the "unlocked when we reach a fixed mastery rank" 

No I'm not ignoring your suggestion; I was listening to your rationale about making players feel forced to make purchases for progression. I keep trying to tell you that I agreed that it was a good idea to have it more tied to progression outside of MR, and I was encouraging more/new ideas.  Why do you keep thinking that I'm trying to argue with you, even after I keep telling you that I was trying to agree with you? I literally cannot make it any more clear. So if you keep assuming I'm trying to argue, even after i've literally explicitly told you that I agreed with you, and after i've asked you to leave since you don't enjoy talking to me, then i'm honestly just going to ignore your comments from here on. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Ok, that's actually a good point.  But this game doesn't have many "strategic shooter" stages, except for spy vaults or "exterminate" missions, or boss fights... the rest of them are pretty much all horde stages.

In that case, why not just increase all reload speeds, if the problem is just that they feel too slow? I agree that Warframe's shooting isn't particularly tactical or refined, though arguably the problem doesn't come from enemy distributions, so much as our overall balance that causes us to obliterate enemies at virtually any level, which has pushed DE over time to just throw more enemies our way, including more special enemies with immunities, resistances, or caps to our power.

2 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

No, I already added this to the main post.... like 5 posts ago.  Look:

Then why did you not bring that up in conversation? That is the point I am making: you plagiarizing my solution in an edit to your OP was done without bringing that up in our argument at the time when it would have been most critical; instead you simply chose to dwell on the antagonism in our posts. When I say "well I actually did give this solution you asked for, it's right here" upon your imperative request, and your answer to that is "don't contradict me"... how does that enable any sort of productive discussion? How does that in any way touch upon the suggestion I proposed?

[Maka.Bones]

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

In that case, why not just increase all reload speeds, if the problem is just that they feel too slow? I agree that Warframe's shooting isn't particularly tactical or refined, though arguably the problem doesn't come from enemy distributions, so much as our overall balance that causes us to obliterate enemies at virtually any level, which has pushed DE over time to just throw more enemies our way, including more special enemies with immunities, resistances, or caps to our power.

Then why did you not bring that up in conversation? That is the point I am making: you plagiarizing my solution in an edit to your OP was done without bringing that up in our argument at the time when it would have been most critical; instead you simply chose to dwell on the antagonism in our posts. When I say "well I actually did give this solution you asked for, it's right here" upon your imperative request, and your answer to that is "don't contradict me"... how does that enable any sort of productive discussion? How does that in any way touch upon the suggestion I proposed?

AAAAAGHHHHHHHH (Arnold schwarzenegger noises) I LITERALLY TOLD YOU THREE TIMES THAT I ALREADY ADDED IT.  What do you mean that i'm plagarazing it? Do you want credit? Want me to mention you on there? 

I have literally been telling you this entire time that I agreed with you, and I told you three literal times that I already added it, but you were too focused on calling an annoying and rude antagonizing person.  

Edit: Also, I didn't just outright suggest to outright change all reload speeds because of the "weapon balancing" the other players keep bringing up. I mean i'm not opposed to the idea of flat out decreasing reload speed/improving weapon action, but introducing it as a reward tied to game-progression of some sort seems more balanced than outright reducing reload speeds. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

I understand your point of Balancing stats with the weapons. However, that falls through when considering this is becoming a "hordes shooter" not a strategic shooter.... which is why I suggested better weapon handling, with increased use/MR/progression. Seriously, as the game keeps advancing /missions prolong, they keep throwing more and more enemies... that's why so many people resort to "nuke" abilities rather than skillful gunplay (which is the first point I make). So those balancing stats don't really hold up to the game, if they don't enable a means to actually play more skillfully while keeping up with the flow of enemies. 

While I've not been around long enough to know how the game has progressed, I tend to find weapons like the Strun Wraith and the Corinth to work pretty well, albeit I've modded both of them with some amount of punch-through. Warframe is a horde shooter, no doubt, but even at its worst it doesn't actually have all that many enemies. Unlike most horde shooters, it also offers a fair few disproportionately bullet-spongey "boss" enemies such the Nox, the Bursa, the Ambulas and others. What this means is that unlike games such as Payday 2, where you have 30 people in-screen pretty much constantly, with a cap of 100+ on the map at the same time. The game works closer to something like WH40K: Space Marine, where Slugga Boyz and other cannon fodder make up the bulk of what you kill but there are still a fair few Nobz running around.

The reason I bring up Space Marine is because my "best" build for that game is a Lascannon Devastator, i.e. a heavy with a sniper rifle. A sniper rifle which holds 26 rounds and picks up 4 rounds per ammo box. Granted, that's along with judicious use of my Bolt Pistol and my Hulk Hogan Big Boot to deal with weaker enemies, because wasting a Lascannon shot on a Slugga Boy is heresy, but my point stands. Because when Nobz start spawning in duplicate and triplicate, the Plasma Cannons and Heavy Bolters start to strggle while the Assaults and Tacs scatter to the winds. And especially once the "Bonus Wave" starts and Chaos Heretics start spawning in their dozens, eating 200 Heavy Bolter rounds to put down but dying from a few as 3 Lascannon headshots, that's where the gun starts to really pull its weight.

Now, Warframe isn't Space Marine, obviously. However, it does feature a similar mechanic. I've been doing a fair few Grineer Survival missions just levelling up random Warframes (turns out Loki is a lot of fun), and it's the Bombards, Heavy Gunners and ESPECIALLY the Noxes which really trip me up. I don't have my Inaros, I can't just stand in place and trade damage with a Scorch. Mostly, I survive on killing Lancers before they can get good shots on me. Thing is, I'm also levelling up new weapons. So when level 60 Bombards and Heavy Gunners turn up, I can't really kill those very quickly. I either have to keep pulling back or start leaning into my abilities a lot more. Or, alternately, I can pull out an "elephant gun" if I happened to bring one. Those would be the likes of the Ribico, the Lanka, the Opricor Vandal, etc. While those might not be great for dealing with hordes, they're good for dealing with individual tough enemies.

While it isn't explicit, Warframe does seem to follow a similar design to the many L4D clones. That is to say, there's a distinct line between "Commons" you can generally kill pretty easily and "Specials" who spawn more rarely but offer a genuine threat beyond drowning you in bodies. And like in L4D, they are the enemies who make carrying a typically useless Sniper Rifle actually worth it. Maybe that's not the case if you have overpowered min/maxed weapons with all of the Rivens and all of the damage buffs, but I'm mostly playing solo and going through my list of weapons for MR. That's the experience I've had, in general but also over the last few days in particular replaying Selkie on Sedna.

[Maka.Bones]

12 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

While I've not been around long enough to know how the game has progressed, I tend to find weapons like the Strun Wraith and the Corinth to work pretty well, albeit I've modded both of them with some amount of punch-through. Warframe is a horde shooter, no doubt, but even at its worst it doesn't actually have all that many enemies. Unlike most horde shooters, it also offers a fair few disproportionately bullet-spongey "boss" enemies such the Nox, the Bursa, the Ambulas and others. What this means is that unlike games such as Payday 2, where you have 30 people in-screen pretty much constantly, with a cap of 100+ on the map at the same time. The game works closer to something like WH40K: Space Marine, where Slugga Boyz and other cannon fodder make up the bulk of what you kill but there are still a fair few Nobz running around.

The reason I bring up Space Marine is because my "best" build for that game is a Lascannon Devastator, i.e. a heavy with a sniper rifle. A sniper rifle which holds 26 rounds and picks up 4 rounds per ammo box. Granted, that's along with judicious use of my Bolt Pistol and my Hulk Hogan Big Boot to deal with weaker enemies, because wasting a Lascannon shot on a Slugga Boy is heresy, but my point stands. Because when Nobz start spawning in duplicate and triplicate, the Plasma Cannons and Heavy Bolters start to strggle while the Assaults and Tacs scatter to the winds. And especially once the "Bonus Wave" starts and Chaos Heretics start spawning in their dozens, eating 200 Heavy Bolter rounds to put down but dying from a few as 3 Lascannon headshots, that's where the gun starts to really pull its weight.

Now, Warframe isn't Space Marine, obviously. However, it does feature a similar mechanic. I've been doing a fair few Grineer Survival missions just levelling up random Warframes (turns out Loki is a lot of fun), and it's the Bombards, Heavy Gunners and ESPECIALLY the Noxes which really trip me up. I don't have my Inaros, I can't just stand in place and trade damage with a Scorch. Mostly, I survive on killing Lancers before they can get good shots on me. Thing is, I'm also levelling up new weapons. So when level 60 Bombards and Heavy Gunners turn up, I can't really kill those very quickly. I either have to keep pulling back or start leaning into my abilities a lot more. Or, alternately, I can pull out an "elephant gun" if I happened to bring one. Those would be the likes of the Ribico, the Lanka, the Opricor Vandal, etc. While those might not be great for dealing with hordes, they're good for dealing with individual tough enemies.

While it isn't explicit, Warframe does seem to follow a similar design to the many L4D clones. That is to say, there's a distinct line between "Commons" you can generally kill pretty easily and "Specials" who spawn more rarely but offer a genuine threat beyond drowning you in bodies. And like in L4D, they are the enemies who make carrying a typically useless Sniper Rifle actually worth it. Maybe that's not the case if you have overpowered min/maxed weapons with all of the Rivens and all of the damage buffs, but I'm mostly playing solo and going through my list of weapons for MR. That's the experience I've had, in general but also over the last few days in particular replaying Selkie on Sedna.

Ok, this is all a really good argument/perspective. You do make a good case, and I actually don't have a sufficient/strong counterpoint. 

I appreciate how you made an illustration with 40K, and then brought back that case with the concept of a "light gun" and a "heavy gun" since I can understand that dynamic.You're right, and I also already do that with my current setup to some extent.

I still think it would be nice to have some sort of weapon customization/improvement beyond mods though; what do you think about that?

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

59 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

AAAAAGHHHHHHHH (Arnold schwarzenegger noises) I LITERALLY TOLD YOU THREE TIMES THAT I ALREADY ADDED IT.  What do you mean that i'm plagarazing it? Do you want credit? Want me to mention you on there?

Screaming in cringy references does nothing to disguise the fact that your response is completely beside the point: you did tell me you added my suggestion... much later in the argument, and long after the point where you had made the conspicuous choice to perpetuate it, rather than discuss the suggestion itself. Even here, you fail to talk about the actual solution put forth. This is not an argument for you to challenge, it is a basic statement of fact. You can claim that your intentions were different, but that does not change the facts of what you did.

59 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Edit: Also, I didn't just outright suggest to outright change all reload speeds because of the "weapon balancing" the other players keep bringing up. I mean i'm not opposed to the idea of flat out decreasing reload speed/improving weapon action, but introducing it as a reward tied to game-progression of some sort seems more balanced than outright reducing reload speeds. 

How so? Why would it be more balanced when it would imbalance reload speeds across MR ranges?

[(XBOX)RPColten]

This has been an interesting thread to read through. I don't have much to say that @Birdframe_Prime has not already said. They made some solid points.

On a personal anecdotal level, I've only had one point of contention with Warframes reloading and that was with the Sobek and it's four second timer, mostly since the weapons potential DPS didn't seem high enough to demand such an extended reload time. DE clearly felt the same since they have lowered the time.

Other than that, reloads have felt pretty natural for the games balance. When it felt like something detrimental, I knew I could use other tools/systems to suppliment the reloads whether it's using Warframe abilities to stun enemies for an opening to disengage or to use parkour movement to back-off and find cover.

E: 100% disagreed on the idea of having some 'universal' handling/reload buff to weapons. Player character power in Warframe should mostly be defined by the immediate tools and systems we have available, not by what content we have completed, let alone our Mastery Rank (Which has thus far been largely unimportant and insubstantial past rank 5 10). The exception to this being the Focus Schools, however even those require us to specifically choose and upgrade specific paths and are not overly general or universal. The Madurai school does tap into weapon damage so the door is open to discuss another school (Naramon possibly) having a node that increases 'weapon handling'. I haven't really invested in any schools aside from Vazarin and Unairu, so maybe weapon handling isn't even a good fit to begin with.

E2: In complete 20/20 hindsight vision, I realize how wrong it is to say that Mastery rank is unimportant past rank 5. I was so focused on the hard content locked behind it that I completely ignored the fact that a majority of the weapons in the game require +5 ranks, with a majority sitting in the 6-9 range. No Frame requires a rank higher than 8 as well, with four primes sitting at Rank 8.

Edited July 18, 2019 by (XB1)RPColten
errors, additions

[Maka.Bones]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

This has been an interesting thread to read through. I don't have much to say that @Birdframe_Prime has not already said. They made some solid points.

On a personal anecdotal level, I've only had one point of contention with Warframes reloading and that was with the Sobek and it's four second timer, mostly since the weapons potential DPS didn't seem high enough to demand such an extended reload time. DE clearly felt the same since they have lowered the time.

Other than that, reloads have felt pretty natural for the games balance. When it felt like something detrimental, I knew I could use other tools/systems to suppliment the reloads whether it's using Warframe abilities to stun enemies for an opening to disengage or to use parkour movement to back-off and find cover.

E: 100% disagreed on the idea of having some 'universal' handling/reload buff to weapons. Player character power in Warframe should mostly be defined by the immediate tools and systems we have available, not by what content we have completed, let alone our Mastery Rank (Which has thus far been largely unimportant and insubstantial past rank 5). The exception to this being the Focus Schools, however even those require us to specifically choose and upgrade specific paths and are not overly general or universal. The Madurai school does tap into weapon damage so the door is open to discuss another school (Naramon possibly) having a node that increases 'weapon handling'. I haven't really invested in any schools aside from Vazarin and Unairu, so maybe weapon handling isn't even a good fit to begin with.

I appreciate your feedback, though saying "MR has been irrelevant past MR5" sounds like a reason why we *should* start incorporating it more into the game

I like your idea about using focus schools though. That's a really good idea I hadn't considered, so thank you!

Edited July 18, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[(XBOX)RPColten]

Offtopic. large comment so saving space:

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

though saying "MR has been irrelevant past MR5" sounds like a reason why we *should* start incorporating it more into the game

I should probably revise my comment, since in hindsight I realise how false it actually is. I apologize.

Mastery Rank, past rank 5, is largely unimportant in that it does not lock the player out of doing anything content-oriented. 5 is the prerequisite for completing the War Within which in turn allows access to everything else. It does however have a pronounced effect on the inventory and arsenal capabilities of the player, so my original comment : (Which has thus far been largely unimportant and insubstantial past rank 5), should actually read more like : (Which has thus far been largely unimportant and insubstantial past rank 10)

Weaponry ranks are fairly substantial, so my comment was out of line with what is actually going on. Rivens also require at minimum rank 8 and go up to a potential of 16, so that alone is another factor. I basically said one thing but that thing was wrong. Sorry.

 

That being said, in terms of incorporating Mastery Rank into the game more, I would disagree. I think having it tied into the game in the manner that it is has been a great benefit. There should be reasons for the player to want to increase their rank, such as greater access to items, but it also should not be something that promotes a feeling where the player feels they need to increase it. I bring up a similar thread of discussion with a friend I play the game with. She's rank 12, and I'm 26, and she'll often comment how she feels her rank is so low compared to mine (She's right. I'm technically twice her rank), at which I will reply with the likes of: "I guess, except the rank is pointless past 16. I only got this high because I wanted to use the various items that gave XP. I never felt like I needed to get ranked up, it just happened. It doesn't give me anything substantial, it's kind of just there. I wouldn't worry about it. You're pretty much at the ceiling anyways."

In that rambling, essentially I'm saying that the Mastery system should avoid becoming a system that players might feel obligated to grind through, because it is a tremendous grind (Whether or not you make use of clever quick-leveling systems, it's still a lot of items.). The fact that it does not directly correlate into any combat systems is a tremendous boon. It's peacock feathers. It's flashy colours to show off, but ultimately doesn't mean much, and that is exactly why it's good. A player won't look at someone who is MR 23 or 25 and go "I need that rank!" only to see what it takes and be immediately turned away.

It's mostly anecdotal and subjective, but it's my take anyway.

 

MR is tied into the game enough as it is: (Officially, it is tied to weapon/frame access, Riven access, Relay access, story access, Syndicate Standing Gain Cap, Trading Cap, Void Trace storage cap, Extractor Cap, Focus Gain Cap, starting mod capacity).

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by (XB1)RPColten
condensed

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Ok, this is all a really good argument/perspective. You do make a good case, and I actually don't have a sufficient/strong counterpoint. I appreciate how you made an illustration with 40K, and then brought back that case with the concept of a "light gun" and a "heavy gun" since I can understand that dynamic.You're right, and I also already do that with my current setup to some extent.

Happy to accommodate, and thank you for considering it fairly.

 

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I still think it would be nice to have some sort of weapon customization/improvement beyond mods though; what do you think about that? 

I don't actually have a problem with it - not ideologically anyway. While the threat of power creep is ever-present, Warframe does lack the kind of "skill build" component as might be found in your average RPG. That is to say, we don't really have much in the way of buffs attached to US the players. Most if not all of our buffs come from individual gear pieces. As a counterpoint, take something like Payday 2. That game gives the player 120 skill points and a selection of skill trees to spend those points on. I might choose to build for extra ammo capacity, extra ammo pick-up, body armour penetration and headshot damage for bodyshots. Another player might choose to build for armour max bonuses, armour recovery bonuses, resistance to flashbangs and the ability to wear a special super-heavy armour suit.

Warframe kinda-sorta has something like that in the form of Focus Schools, but those are are a mish-mash of character-wide and Operator-specific buffs. For instance, I use Unairu which doesn't actually DO much to my Inaros, but it does cause him to reflect some damage back. Consequently, the easiest way to get Grineer out of mounted Turrets is to let them shoot me until they kill themselves from reflected damage. Because Inaros. To a point you can also argue that your Warframe choice serves the same purpose. A Harrow player would have faster-firing weapons, a Chroma player would deal more damage, etc., but that's about it. There really isn't a good way to "build for ammo" or "build for armour" or "build for damage" across the board, beyond just tweaking individual item builds.

So no, I would not be opposed to some kind of account-wide progression, something similar to The Division 2's "Mastery" system. The problem, though, is that the best system for that IS Focus. At this point, I'm starting to believe that Operators need to be pulled entirely out of the Focus system, given their own "mod" equivalent for Operator abilities and Amps, and the Focus Tree system redesigned as a general character/Operator/Warframe/Weapon/stat boost system. That's unlikely to happen, though the Duviri Paradox does seem to suggest changes might be coming. You never know.

[Maka.Bones]

6 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Offtopic. large comment so saving space:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I should probably revise my comment, since in hindsight I realise how false it actually is. I apologize.

Mastery Rank, past rank 5, is largely unimportant in that it does not lock the player out of doing anything content-oriented. 5 is the prerequisite for completing the War Within which in turn allows access to everything else. It does however have a pronounced effect on the inventory and arsenal capabilities of the player, so my original comment : (Which has thus far been largely unimportant and insubstantial past rank 5), should actually read more like : (Which has thus far been largely unimportant and insubstantial past rank 10)

Weaponry ranks are fairly substantial, so my comment was out of line with what is actually going on. Rivens also require at minimum rank 8 and go up to a potential of 16, so that alone is another factor. I basically said one thing but that thing was wrong. Sorry.

 

That being said, in terms of incorporating Mastery Rank into the game more, I would disagree. I think having it tied into the game in the manner that it is has been a great benefit. There should be reasons for the player to want to increase their rank, such as greater access to items, but it also should not be something that promotes a feeling where the player feels they need to increase it. I bring up a similar thread of discussion with a friend I play the game with. She's rank 12, and I'm 26, and she'll often comment how she feels her rank is so low compared to mine (She's right. I'm technically twice her rank), at which I will reply with the likes of: "I guess, except the rank is pointless past 16. I only got this high because I wanted to use the various items that gave XP. I never felt like I needed to get ranked up, it just happened. It doesn't give me anything substantial, it's kind of just there. I wouldn't worry about it. You're pretty much at the ceiling anyways."

In that rambling, essentially I'm saying that the Mastery system should avoid becoming a system that players might feel obligated to grind through, because it is a tremendous grind (Whether or not you make use of clever quick-leveling systems, it's still a lot of items.). The fact that it does not directly correlate into any combat systems is a tremendous boon. It's peacock feathers. It's flashy colours to show off, but ultimately doesn't mean much, and that is exactly why it's good. A player won't look at someone who is MR 23 or 25 and go "I need that rank!" only to see what it takes and be immediately turned away.

It's mostly anecdotal and subjective, but it's my take anyway.

 

MR is tied into the game enough as it is: (Officially, it is tied to weapon/frame access, Riven access, Relay access, story access, Syndicate Standing Gain Cap, Trading Cap, Void Trace storage cap, Extractor Cap, Focus Gain Cap, starting mod capacity).

 

 

 

Yeah that's honestly why I enjoyed/appreciated your idea of making it more related to focus trees, instead of MR.  I'd personally prefer some sort of weapon skill progression though. 

Thank you for the feedback!

[Maka.Bones]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

I agree with OP. As someone who has done competitive shooting, the reload times have always annoyed me.   And I also agree that progress in reloading should be preserved if interrupted. If I already did the animation of removing the spent magazine, whyTF would I have to do it again because I dodged an attack before putting a fresh magazine in?

 

Thank you!

It's nice to see that I'm not the only person who thinks the reload speeds feel pretty slow, or that weapons should at least keep their reload progress. 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

23 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

And you're assuming that I hate it? first of all, that's not related to weapon reload. Secondly I wasn't complaining about getting hooked or getting back up. I was complaining about reload speeds, and how you have to start all over whenever a reload gets interrupted. Thirdly, maybe stick to the subject and stop being so belittling or assuming that I hate the game. 

Yes I know about mods, timmy. 

Edit: MY bad, maybe I should call you "oh great and wise one" instead of "timmy"

I think his point is, your idea is decent but not something that should prioritized by DE. There are so many ways to deal with reloading that it doesnt feel necessary to take resources away from other things that DE could be working on just to give us slightly increased reload speeds. 

 

To be honest i like having slow reload speeds as it gives us the option to have something to make up for the negative. Like the mod blind rage, you can use the negative as an excuse to make something else really powerful! 

Edited July 19, 2019 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

17 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

(i just thought skill-development would be a cool concept)

Oh well yes, this idea is 100% okay with me! More experimentation with builds 💙

[Tiltskillet]

I seems to me like there are three problems that need to be fixed relating to reload speed.  And it'd be better to fix them first before looking at a top-down change like the one proposed in the OP.

The first one is the easiest:  I don't mind reload as implemented for the most part in this game, but some weapons clearly don't have a great relationship between reload / magazine / RoF.  In some cases, that's made up for somewhere else--for instance, by lots of burst damage, or a gimmick.  In other cases, it just seems like the weapon is screwed for no reason.  An example near and dear to my heart would be the Argonak in auto-mode.

The second one is more complicated, but I don't think it should be too daunting for DE:  review the current reload mods and boost them significantly in most cases.  (And do the same for magazine mods too, as it's really two sides of the same coin.)    And add a few more new mods. There are some weapons I'd seriously consider adding a reload mod to if it just had a bigger impact for the opportunity cost of giving up a mod with a more direct contribution to damage.

The third one is closely connected to the second, but a lot bigger than any reload issue on its own:  figure out how to either add mod slots or free up mod slots without...much...power creep.   Probably a huge undertaking, but has the potential for even larger dividends.

edit:  To sort of bring it back to the OP..,  It'd need to address a lot more than reload, but I'd enjoy a paragon style system in this game if it were done right.  It could be it's own thing, or an extension of Focus--just applying as much or more to frames and weapons as to operators.  I don't see this as needing to be tied to MR, but it could be.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Tiltskillet

[Steel_Rook]

8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

The third one is closely connected to the second, but a lot bigger than any reload issue on its own:  figure out how to either add mod slots or free up mod slots without...much...power creep.   Probably a huge undertaking, but has the potential for even larger dividends.

This is off-topic, but I'm still a fan of breaking mod slots into types and limiting what goes into each type. That way, you could have a few slots reserved for "handling" mods such as magazine capacity, reload, accuracy, stability, rate of fire, projectile flight speed, damage falloff, ammo pick-up, etc. The rest of the slots could either hold everything else, or you could have a few "offensive" slots reserved for damage, crit, status, procs and so on, while a few more reserved for support mods, though I can't think of any off the top of my head (support is mostly rolled into Status). If you want to be fancy, you could even give different weapons a different amount of each type of mod slot to further push them into their own niches.

I doubt that's going to happen as it would massively reduce (redundant) build variety and probably end up nerfing min/maxed performance, but it really is the only way weapon handling mods are ever going to be worth using over just slapping on more damage and maybe just picking a different weapon. That's basically what the Exilus slot is for - to equip mods which would otherwise be too S#&$ to use in place of something better. I certainly wouldn't be using Master Thief if I could slap Vitality in its place.

[Maka.Bones]

11 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

I think his point is, your idea is decent but not something that should prioritized by DE. There are so many ways to deal with reloading that it doesnt feel necessary to take resources away from other things that DE could be working on just to give us slightly increased reload speeds. 

 

To be honest i like having slow reload speeds as it gives us the option to have something to make up for the negative. Like the mod blind rage, you can use the negative as an excuse to make something else really powerful! 

Thanks for the explanation 👍

But why would you need an negative, as an excuse to make something else powerful? Lol

It's a weapon. The damage is already supposed to be powerful, as a given. That's pretty much the point of a weapon. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

The third one is closely connected to the second, but a lot bigger than any reload issue on its own:  figure out how to either add mod slots or free up mod slots without...much...power creep.   Probably a huge undertaking, but has the potential for even larger dividends.

This is off-topic, but I'm still a fan of breaking mod slots into types and limiting what goes into each type. That way, you could have a few slots reserved for "handling" mods such as magazine capacity, reload, accuracy, stability, rate of fire, projectile flight speed, damage falloff, ammo pick-up, etc. The rest of the slots could either hold everything else, or you could have a few "offensive" slots reserved for damage, crit, status, procs and so on, while a few more reserved for support mods, though I can't think of any off the top of my head (support is mostly rolled into Status). If you want to be fancy, you could even give different weapons a different amount of each type of mod slot to further push them into their own niches.

I doubt that's going to happen as it would massively reduce (redundant) build variety and probably end up nerfing min/maxed performance, but it really is the only way weapon handling mods are ever going to be worth using over just slapping on more damage and maybe just picking a different weapon. That's basically what the Exilus slot is for - to equip mods which would otherwise be too S#&$ to use in place of something better. I certainly wouldn't be using Master Thief if I could slap Vitality in its place

I actually made a separate post altogether, about letting us combine our own mods in the future. 

 

Gonna hide the rest in a "spoiler" to reduce space 

Spoiler

Mostly "single stat" utility & damage mods. I honestly don't see why the game needs any negative to excuse a positive, when you're reaching a certain degree of game progression. If everything is going to die, why should we be restricted from using our favorite weapons, because we're forced to pick between reload speed, fire rate, magazine size, and damage?

Take the Corinth for example... It's a weaker one of the shotguns even though it's lovely. But it really needs both fire rate, and reload speed (and if needs a lot of both). It also needs a lot of damage buff because even though it has plenty crit, the shotgun crit mods aren't strong enough. So I had to buy a riven mod, to get the stats I needed as compensation. While I love the riven, and I wouldn't trade it, I really don't enjoy it being at the mercy of stat changes. I just want to have a system that I know I can rely on, even when it changes. Currently rivens aren't like that; they're just a "free in-game lottery" of sorts that honestly require too much time for me to invest in. 

I honestly dislike most of the "popular" weapons simply because they have poor handling action, and I also don't want to just use a "meme cannon" to immediately kill everything (plasmor/opticor/catchmoon) because I personally don't enjoy that (I don't want to take those options away from others, but if I kill everything too fast then It just feels a waiting game to me). Though sometimes it honestly feels like those are the only practical options we have. Either nuke with abilities, or use a meme cannon, because other weapons struggle from a poor handling & damage relationship.

I want to eliminate threats fast, without necessarily killing everyone in the room/hallway/path.

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Screaming in cringy references does nothing to disguise the fact that your response is completely beside the point: you did tell me you added my suggestion... much later in the argument, and long after the point where you had made the conspicuous choice to perpetuate it, rather than discuss the suggestion itself. Even here, you fail to talk about the actual solution put forth. This is not an argument for you to challenge, it is a basic statement of fact. You can claim that your intentions were different, but that does not change the facts of what you did

First of all:

Spoiler

there's nothing cringey about Arnold Schwartznegger. The man is a legend, and makes for hilarious vines/memes. 

Secondly:

Yeah you're right. It doesn't change the facts of what I did. 

I did agree, literally on the first page of this forum (before you started insulting me)

I did discuss it with you (but you focused on insulting me)

I did tell you I was going to add it, when I said "sure why not" 

 

This is exactly what I said, and it's the very bottom comment of the first page:

 

"That's part of game progression. I see your point about "incentivizing purchases" but then what do you call the perks we already get with a higher MR? But hey sure, don't tie this with MR, propose another alternative instead. If it's really as easy as you said to lower all the weapon reload speeds, sure that's fine then. They're the ones who need to do the work, so I'm sure they'll do whatever is most efficient. (Even if it's ignoring this post lol)"

 

That was me, already agreeing with your different approach. Now please stop assuming or projecting the worst you imagine onto me. I believe you've been misunderstanding me, so I'm kindly asking you to stop one last time. 

 

Now why would it be more imbalanced to flat out reduce reload speeds? I believe @Birdframe_Prime already explained that argument. You can read their posts 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

~~snip~~

Yeah I can agree with you. 

While birdframe_prime has a good point about DE wanting to rebalance the weapons in some other way, there are definitely weapons that don't currently follow any "balanced" sort of format or existing damage/handling relationship. 

 

As far as needing to buff reload mods, even just more diversity would help. Rifles (non-snipers) literally have only one reload mod. There's absolutely no versatility about it lol. 

And about needing more mod-space, yeah I made another thread (before I started this one) about adding an option to combine mods, into one (or fitting two mods into one slot).  Like a single-stat utility, and a single-stat damage mod. 

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

I removed the idea of scaling it directly with MR progression, since there was a lot of feedback and good counterpoints against it. 

I changed the main direction to be more like a weapon use progression like borderlands, or alternatively  "paragon system" of a sorts. Or skill/talent progression system.

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Tiltskillet]

13 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

This is off-topic, but I'm still a fan of breaking mod slots into types and limiting what goes into each type. That way, you could have a few slots reserved for "handling" mods such as magazine capacity, reload, accuracy, stability, rate of fire, projectile flight speed, damage falloff, ammo pick-up, etc. The rest of the slots could either hold everything else, or you could have a few "offensive" slots reserved for damage, crit, status, procs and so on, while a few more reserved for support mods, though I can't think of any off the top of my head (support is mostly rolled into Status). If you want to be fancy, you could even give different weapons a different amount of each type of mod slot to further push them into their own niches.

I doubt that's going to happen as it would massively reduce (redundant) build variety and probably end up nerfing min/maxed performance, but it really is the only way weapon handling mods are ever going to be worth using over just slapping on more damage and maybe just picking a different weapon. That's basically what the Exilus slot is for - to equip mods which would otherwise be too S#&$ to use in place of something better. I certainly wouldn't be using Master Thief if I could slap Vitality in its place.

I like that approach a lot, especially if it was combined with eliminating Serration, etc., and baking some amount of it into base stats and enemy ehp. And I'm not sure about it reducing build diversity, except theoretically.  We do have lots of theoretical diversity now, but not quite enough practical.  The only thing really ameliorating that now is the fact that most content is so easy, people can, pretty much, build any way they want and still roll through it. 

But...it is hard for me to fathom how  to breaking up multiple slots into different functions would overlay on top of the polarity/forma system.   I mean, we have soft slot specializations already, and then this large aspect of the game devoted to eliminating those specializations.

Definitely deserves its own thread though.

[Teridax68]

54 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I did agree, literally on the first page of this forum (before you started insulting me)

This is a blatant lie, as your first post in this thread addressing me was in pure disagreement with the side comment I had made, which you'd picked to start this argument.

54 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I did discuss it with you (but you focused on insulting me)

This is another blatant lie, as I pointed to the very post you made demonstrating that you had made strictly no effort to discuss the suggestion I had put forth. Even now, you're not even trying to do so.

54 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I did tell you I was going to add it, when I said "sure why not" 

The only recorded instance of "sure, why not" ever made in this thread was in your reply to Steel_Rook, while discussing another entirely separate matter. It is only when challenged on your contrarian behavior that you claimed to have pasted my suggestion into your thread OP, and until that point you gave no such indication in your responses to me. Your claim here is thus yet another easily provable lie.

54 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

This is exactly what I said, and it's the very bottom comment of the first page:

 

"That's part of game progression. I see your point about "incentivizing purchases" but then what do you call the perks we already get with a higher MR? But hey sure, don't tie this with MR, propose another alternative instead. If it's really as easy as you said to lower all the weapon reload speeds, sure that's fine then. They're the ones who need to do the work, so I'm sure they'll do whatever is most efficient. (Even if it's ignoring this post lol)"

The very quote you listed shows you were still in argument mode when you said that, defeating your entire point. In this respect, this makes my own reply:

On 2019-07-18 at 11:50 AM, Teridax68 said:

... I already did?

"Some other trigger" here being as simple as completing a junction or finishing a quest. Again, this is assuming one wants to give newer and more experienced players different reload speeds, which I heavily disagree with.

All the more innocuous. Note how my response simply lists the suggestion I made and immediately tries to shift discussion on the matter in order to try to steer the debate into more productive territory, instead of making any demands and expecting someone else to put in the effort. The problem with this isn't just that you didn't bother to discuss productively then, you still don't seem willing to now, as you appear to be much more interested in talking about your own person, namely when it comes to saving face, than talking about any design topic in Warframe.

54 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Now please stop assuming or projecting the worst you imagine onto me. I believe you've been misunderstanding me, so I'm kindly asking you to stop one last time. 

You don't get to say this when you have been assuming the worst of people who've criticized you on this thread, and projecting your own antagonism onto others (it is in fact what landed you in this argument). What I'm pointing out here is also not really a matter of interpretation: you have said and done things that aren't great, including this absolute monstrosity of a quintuple post you just plopped onto your own thread (who does that? Why would you even do that?), you have made claims that are demonstrably untrue, and you have made visible attempts to shift the blame for your actions onto others, such as by accusing others of assuming the worst of you when you have been criticized at length by multiple people on this very thread for doing the same. If you don't want to be "misunderstood", you need to take steps to improve your behavior. Perhaps start by limiting your replies to one post at a time, for crying out loud, instead of the above multi-post pileups, as this is a forum, and not a chat server.