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Universal Weapon handling Buff (like reload speed) with weapon use and/or a paragon system/MR Progression Tiers


Maka.Bones
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13 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I like that approach a lot, especially if it was combined with eliminating Serration, etc., and baking some amount of it into base stats and enemy ehp. And I'm not sure about it reducing build diversity, except theoretically.  We do have lots of theoretical diversity now, but not quite enough practical.  The only thing really ameliorating that now is the fact that most content is so easy, people can, pretty much, build any way they want and still roll through it. 

Well, you don't necessarily have to eliminate Serration under this proposed system. You could instead have one or two dedicated Base Damage slots which could hold Serration, Heavy Calibre, Split Chamber and pretty much any other damage/multishot mod. Then, exclude base damage and multishot mods from all other slots entirely. Yes, in practice you're still going to get most people slotting Serration in "the Serration slot," probably. However, imagine a version of Heavy Calibre which boosts damage by 220%, but also debuffs accuracy by 55% as it does now. In some cases, you may want to fill the Serration slot with that, instead of the actual Serration mod. Sometimes you may want two damage boosting mods, sometimes you may want a damage boost and a multishot mod. The beauty of breaking mod slots into types is this gives you an extra tool with which to make mods mutually exclusive, which in my experience leads to more choice in the long run. Picking just ONE base damage/multishot mod is a harder choice to make over just stacking all of them.

 

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

But...it is hard for me to fathom how  to breaking up multiple slots into different functions would overlay on top of the polarity/forma system.   I mean, we have soft slot specializations already, and then this large aspect of the game devoted to eliminating those specializations.

There are a couple of issues with using Polarity for "slot typing." For one, not all mods of the same "kind" share the same polarity. Famously, the basic Cold Damage mod is of a different ploarity than Heat, Toxic and Electric damage mods. Additionally, all the Element/Status mods are of a different polarity altogether. For another thing, every slot can be of every polarity, meaning there's no real restriction on having only a one or two polarities capable of holding Serration and its ilk. And even if there were, players could just equip mods in unpolarised slots anyway. Polarity is a time and resource sink, rather than a proper balance tool, thus it doesn't quite serve the same role. That's why I brought up the Exilus mod, along with the Aura Mod. That's the kind of limitations I'm personally looking for.

 

22 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Definitely deserves its own thread though.

That's fair enough, and I don't disagree 🙂 We've had a few of those in recent times, and they've been mostly a lot of fun, albeit controversial.

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3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

~~snip~~

I wish we had a *thinking face* reaction, because each of your points have an interesting perspective/idea. Even the suggestions I don't agree with for the sake of personal preference, are still interesting concepts.

Edit: Post a link of your thread on here, if you do make one!

Edited by Maka.Bones
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On 2019-07-19 at 10:33 AM, Maka.Bones said:

But why would you need an negative, as an excuse to make something else powerful?

 it adds "balance". Like if you make a sniper with 100 magaizine capacity, fully automatic, high damage, 0.3s reload speed, 100% cc, 100x cd, can shoot like a shotgun, etc

 

It starts to become the only weapon everyone uses. Get less and less of a reason to make new weapons the more positives you give to 1 weapon. But the diversity in positives and negatives truely keeps weapons interesting. In such a repetitive game, the more things you can do to maintain player curiousity, the better.

Lenz for example, slow fire rate, low ammo, but beautiful damage and aoe. It would be too op too add more fire rate and arrows, the negatives help keep it from getting out of control while also introducing a new playstyle to those who dont care about fire rate, just want to deal a lot of damage. 

Edited by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII
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On 2019-07-20 at 8:26 AM, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

 it adds "balance". Like if you make a sniper with 100 magaizine capacity, fully automatic, high damage, 0.3s reload speed, 100% cc, 100x cd, can shoot like a shotgun, etc

 

It starts to become the only weapon everyone uses. Get less and less of a reason to make new weapons the more positives you give to 1 weapon. But the diversity in positives and negatives truely keeps weapons interesting. In such a repetitive game, the more things you can do to maintain player curiousity, the better.

Lenz for example, slow fire rate, low ammo, but beautiful damage and aoe. It would be too op too add more fire rate and arrows, the negatives help keep it from getting out of control while also introducing a new playstyle to those who dont care about fire rate, just want to deal a lot of damage. 

I think you're forgetting the Vectis Prime exists. (Also, the akstiletto prime)

Edited by Maka.Bones
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18 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I think you're forgetting the Vectis Primed exists. (Also, the akstiletto prime)

Im not forgetting about the vectics? as there are still weapons that exist that out perform the vectis while sacraficing other aspects of what makes the weapon good.....

Vectis negatives:

-no wide radius aoe

-no automatic fire

-extremely small magazine

-very loud (alerts enemies)

-terrible at armor stripping

-high zoom

-not the highest damage dealing weapon(instant damage and in dps). 

As with the akstiletto. Tons of negatives as well....

And you may argue "well you can mod the vectis to make it feel like it never reloads so that the small magazine doesnt matter, and place a mod on it that makes weapon more quiet" but you'd be failing to realize youre sacraficing slots that could have been used to make the weapon deal more damage. And that right there is what ive been talking about. The beauty in sacraficing something to make something else stronger or better while maintaing a balance.

So my point still stands.

Edited by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII
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I have no problem with the reload times, most weapons I don't need to mod it, but the ones I do can get to be lightning fast, particularly secondaries like the Furis. To be honest I catch more issues with the fact that all weapons force you to slow to regular jogging speed - I kinda wish we could sprint with secondaries, or at least certain ones. But I suppose that's why we can shoot while sliding and bullet jumping, so it's not something I'm looking to change. To counter-act the problem this presents me with though which is "when to sprint and when to shoot", an annoying choice when I usually prefer to be going quite fast at all times, I use the Tigris, which maintains the choice, but makes the times in which to decide more obvious to me. So that way I can move at top speed while reloading my next shot, and when I find a target I plant my feet for a moment, and delete it from existence, then carry on doing parkour while reloading. It sort of chops the gameplay up, but in a way that flows for me. 

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7 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Im not forgetting about the vectics? as there are still weapons that exist that out perform the vectis while sacraficing other aspects of what makes the weapon good.....

Vectis negatives:

-no wide radius aoe

-no automatic fire

-extremely small magazine

-very loud (alerts enemies)

-terrible at armor stripping

-high zoom

-not the highest damage dealing weapon(instant damage and in dps). 

As with the akstiletto. Tons of negatives as well....

And you may argue "well you can mod the vectis to make it feel like it never reloads so that the small magazine doesnt matter, and place a mod on it that makes weapon more quiet" but you'd be failing to realize youre sacraficing slots that could have been used to make the weapon deal more damage. And that right there is what ive been talking about. The beauty in sacraficing something to make something else stronger or better while maintaing a balance.

So my point still stands.

- Yeah no wide radius AoE since it's a sniper. (I'm not exactly asking for weapons to be nukes here, just better weapon handling). But it kills whatever you shoot at, and it basically has pin-point accuracy.  (in fact, i'd say that it's precision accuracy makes it harder to masterfully use since you can't just aim in a general direction to obliterate whatever is in that area)

- Fire rate is fast enough for it to not need automatic fire, and it kills basically anything with a single shot, so why should it need automatic fire? It  already does the job with one bullet

- The small magazine doesn't matter, since the reload speed is fast enough. It's reload is about as fast as its fire-rate. 

- You can mod it to be silenced, and most weapons make noise. The baseline for all weapons is that they make a lot of noise. (but this goes in further into my argument for "better weapon handling"). Unlike "weapon handling" silencing is either on, or off. You only need *one* silencing mod... you don't need to add more "silencing" mods, like you would need to add more fire-rate, reload, -recoil, ammo mutation, magazine size, holster speed, (etc) for some other weapons. 

- Why do you need armor stripping, when the enemy is already dead?  (it kills just about anything in a single shot... Nox might take two well-placed shots)

- You don't need to zoom in, to use it

- The damage is sufficient to literally kill anything. 

The vectis prime literally has the ideal / perfect ratio of weapon handling to overcome any "weapon negatives" . The corinth is *almost* there as well, despite its slow fire-rate and slow reload. (Hopefully it's primed variant will overcome these slight limitations)

The akstiletto can just about shred anything except for a high-level eximus heavy gunner, and it has ideal weapon handling. 

 

That's the kind of ideal handling i'd like to be able to reach with other non-battery/non-energy weapons. I.E. the aklex prime has an incredibly slow reload, ridiculous recoil, poor accuracy, small magazine size, meh-diocre fire rate, and meh-diocre damage. So how exactly do any of its negatives balance the overabundant lack of positives of this weapon?

I'm not exactly asking for automatic-fire, auto-reloading, handheld tactical nuke launchers (Like the rocket launcher from Unreal Tournament). Only for better weapon handling progression (possibly with some minor customization) 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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On 2019-07-20 at 4:43 AM, taiiat said:

oh, i just accidentally reminded myself of it so i mention it - the Synth Set Bonus exists btw, which is quite useful. i.e. there is a way to Mod into the desire of reducing the impact of Reloading.

Not a big fan of "holster reload" mods. I'm looking for better weapon handling, not to switch weapons to have to reload again. I usually have different damage types on my primary and secondary, so if i'm having to unload a magazine on a mob's face changing my weapon to a less-ideal damage type won't exactly be helping me. 

I appreciate the thought/suggestion though, thank you!

Edited by Maka.Bones
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1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

'm not exactly asking for automatic-fire, auto-reloading, handheld tactical nuke launchers. Only for better weapon handling progression (possibly with some minor customization

Umm, are we still talking about why would you need a negative to make something else more powerful??? I feel like you shot back to the topic of "weapon handling progression" which im not against. Im a bit confused on why you said all that in the last post

You seem to believe a nuke vectics is ridiculous because its powerful enough. So make a weapon that sacrafices some things that make the vectics powerful (negatives) but nukes enemies. So now we can have a weapon that nukes enemies if we desire it. Aka a negative as an excuse to make something else more powereful

Quote: Your comment about the aklex

There are many weapons in the game that are simply not good. But it does not mean DE cannot make a new aklex prime to where the positives out way the weapons negatives by giving it some extra damage and other pleasant bonus to make it really good, very different from other weapons, but not stronger than other weapons in every way. Maintaing the balance i was talking about.

Edited by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII
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1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

The vectis prime literally has the ideal / perfect ratio of weapon handling to overcome any "weapon negatives

Also this is not true. Big weapon negative, it doesnt fit a lot of peoples play style in most missions. And it cant overcome that. Ill always pick the arca plasmor, glaxion, or any other good aoe weapons over vectis against a lot of enemies. If i need to tap the button, i rather the tap once kill 10 enemies instead of 1. More than willing to sacrafice some of the vectis dps for that. Giving me a brand new weapon that does that for me already and does it way better than modding the vectics to be more effective at killing swarms of enemies is quite pleasant!

Edited by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII
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My 2 cents in response to OPs post:

1. No bonuses tied to playtime, veterans really don't need another thing that sets them apart from new players and make them feel inadequate, we do that with overpowerd builds as it is.

2. No bonuses tied to weapon use, all that does is make people try out less stuff because the weapon they have used for halve their playtime gets a boost for whatever godforsaken reason.

Hey, what doe you know, literally "2 cents" XD

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1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

Not a big fan of "holster reload" mods. I'm looking for better weapon handling, not to switch weapons to have to reload again. I usually have different damage types on my primary and secondary, so if i'm having to unload a magazine on a mob's face changing my weapon to a less-ideal damage type won't exactly be helping me. 

i agreed with that course of thinking, until we got instant switch for Melee. i basically never have to Reload now simply from when using Melee as a part of Parkour. those fractions of a second already makes me have to almost never Reload :D
i shoot a bunch, then move somewhere and the <1/2 of a second that i have my Melee out as a part of Parkour, a good chunk of what i Shot is already Reloaded!

i mostly brought it up to remind that there are out of the ordinary Modding choices, hehe.

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22 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Also this is not true. Big weapon negative, it doesnt fit a lot of peoples play style in most missions. And it cant overcome that. Ill always pick the arca plasmor, glaxion, or any other good aoe weapons over vectis against a lot of enemies. If i need to tap the button, i rather the tap once kill 10 enemies instead of 1. More than willing to sacrafice some of the vectis dps for that. Giving me a brand new weapon that does that for me already and does it way better than modding the vectics to be more effective at killing swarms of enemies is quite pleasant!

We're talking about weapon handling. Not about aoe radius, or kill per shot. That's tied to the damage / projectile.  It *does* have the ideal weapon handling which is rare in many non-nuke weapons. We're not talking about the largest projectile, or explosive, or AoE, or an insane kill/shot ratio (we already discussed this; it's a sniper). But if you want to talk about weapons with larger AoEs and projectiles that also have good weapon handling, look at the Opticor Vandall, or the Tonkor

And that's you, not me. I don't use punch-through on my shotguns on purpose, for that reason. This is why you and I disagree on the need for better weapon handling/reloads; you're nuking 10 enemies at once, meanwhile i'm trying to get 3 headshots within a second. 

The game is a lot less fun for me, when I use weapons like a plasmor.  Maybe i should just go play an old ubisoft game... I miss the old Ghost Recon, and Splinter Cell style of games. 

 

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22 hours ago, Vethalon said:

My 2 cents in response to OPs post:

1. No bonuses tied to playtime, veterans really don't need another thing that sets them apart from new players and make them feel inadequate, we do that with overpowerd builds as it is.

2. No bonuses tied to weapon use, all that does is make people try out less stuff because the weapon they have used for halve their playtime gets a boost for whatever godforsaken reason.

Hey, what doe you know, literally "2 cents" XD

.. Your second point cent (kek) makes sense, so what about "Weapon types" ? 

And that separation is already going to happen with any game (your first point)... You realize that, right? Whether it's a build, mods, gear, coin, or simply more experience & more friends. I also posted about how to improve the new player experience (on a different thread) but omitting something simply because "Oh no, it can't be progressive because then it's another thing new players don't have" doesn't really make a sound argument to me.... Literally everything and anything new, will be another thing new players won't have.  So how would you suggest to introduce/incorporate things differently? 

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23 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Umm, are we still talking about why would you need a negative to make something else more powerful??? I feel like you shot back to the topic of "weapon handling progression" which im not against. Im a bit confused on why you said all that in the last post

You seem to believe a nuke vectics is ridiculous because its powerful enough. So make a weapon that sacrafices some things that make the vectics powerful (negatives) but nukes enemies. So now we can have a weapon that nukes enemies if we desire it. Aka a negative as an excuse to make something else more powereful

Quote: Your comment about the aklex

There are many weapons in the game that are simply not good. But it does not mean DE cannot make a new aklex prime to where the positives out way the weapons negatives by giving it some extra damage and other pleasant bonus to make it really good, very different from other weapons, but not stronger than other weapons in every way. Maintaing the balance i was talking about.

My comment

"I'm not exactly asking for automatic-fire, auto-reloading, handheld tactical nuke launchers (Like the rocket launcher from Unreal Tournament). Only for better weapon handling progression (possibly with some minor customization)"

points at the existence of weapons like the arca plasmor (virtually no negatives, outside of the nerf it got.... The Plasmor's small magazine size, and mediocre reload speed, become irrelevant when everything else around you is already dead and you're just waiting for new respawns.) And then the Aklex Prime which doesn't follow the "negatives, for a positive" argument you made prior

Which brings us back full circle to when I asked my rhetorical question "But why would you need a negative, as an excuse to make something else powerful?" Especially if it's already something which will require some sort of progression scale (time & effort investment)

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17 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

My comment

"I'm not exactly asking for automatic-fire, auto-reloading, handheld tactical nuke launchers (Like the rocket launcher from Unreal Tournament). Only for better weapon handling progression (possibly with some minor customization)"

points at the existence of weapons like the arca plasmor (virtually no negatives, outside of the nerf it got.... The Plasmor's small magazine size, and mediocre reload speed, become irrelevant when everything else around you is already dead and you're just waiting for new respawns.) And then the Aklex Prime which doesn't follow the "negatives, for a positive" argument you made prior

Which brings us back full circle to when I asked my rhetorical question "But why would you need a negative, as an excuse to make something else powerful?" Especially if it's already something which will require some sort of progression scale (time & effort investment)

"We're talking about weapon handling"

Im not, you knew this because of your comment about the vectics... we were not talking about weapon handling. Not in the most previous conversation

"And thats you not me"

Yea, i know, thats why i said that. It feeds my point about my favorite weapon arca plasmor is a playstyle negative to you. You cant use it in the way you wish, and if you could then the weapon becomes better than the vectics. The vectics may as well be forgotten. Instead, de decided to make it the ability to switch between different types of gunfire a negative for the weapon, as a way to introduce another weapon called the vectics. Adding "variety" to the game

"Negatives are irrelevant" wait can we just pause for 24 hrs? 

See you keep saying the negatives are irrelevant, but you know god dang on well if all those negatives were instead positives the arca plasmor, it would be ridiculously overpowered. 

Whoever doesnt think that is a troll i swear lol. Im give up if you say the weapon wouldnt be even more overpowered, you playin games

 

"The negatives are irrelevant" lmao, it really seems like you think just because the weapon is good, it means it cant be following a rule for how powerful it can be with negatives and positives. Like what the heck 😂😂You cant just basically say "pretend the negatives dont exist because the weapon is powerful" so that your argument is right and mine is wrong 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂  

 

What you have to understand is, it doesnt matter if the positives out way the negatives, a weapon can be very weak yet by making more negatives to the weapon, people will be more welcoming to have other of aspects of the weapon make up for it. Which fits my argument in negatives being used as an excuse to make something else more powerful. Arca plasmore however, buffing that weapon in any aspects is unnecessary unless something else is being taken away from the weapon.

 

Edited by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII
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2 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

"We're talking about weapon handling"

Im not, you knew this because of your comment about the vectics... we were not talking about weapon handling. Not in the most previous conversation

But this thread is about weapon handling. lol...

2 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Yea, i know, thats why i said that. It feeds my point about my favorite weapon arca plasmor is a playstyle negative to you. You cant use it in the way you wish, and if you could then the weapon becomes better than the vectics. The vectics may as well be forgotten. Instead, de decided to make it the ability to switch between different types of gunfire a negative for the weapon, as a way to introduce another weapon called the vectics. Adding "variety" to the game

It doesn't, because I don't like the arca plasmor. I don't enjoy using the arca plasmor, because I don't enjoy killing 10 enemies at once with a shotgun. Your argument doesn't apply for everyone.

2 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

See you keep saying the negatives are irrelevant, but you know god dang on well if all those negatives were instead positives the arca plasmor, it would be ridiculously overpowered. 

Whoever doesnt think that is a troll i swear lol. Im give up if you say the weapon wouldnt be even more overpowered, you playin games

 

"The negatives are irrelevant" lmao, it really seems like you think just because the weapon is good, it means it cant be following a rule for how powerful it can be with negatives and positives. Like what the heck 😂😂You cant just basically say "pretend the negatives dont exist because the weapon is powerful" so that your argument is right and mine is wrong 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂  

It already is ridiculously overpowered? That's exactly why I don't like it lol.

The negatives are irrelevant, since it already clears the room. It doesn't matter that it has a 10 round magazine, because those 10 rounds will kill 80-150 enemies. It doesn't matter that it has a 2.8s reload speed (which is faster than the strun wraith, the corinth, the soma prime, the alex prime and almost as fast as the Vaykor Hek) because it inherently already has a huge AoE radius, and infinite penetration 

The arca plasmor is already overpowered, and any further tuning for its reload/fire-rate is irrelevant because it's already clearing the entire room before it uses up all the ammo in a single magazine. It deals so much damage, that it overcomes just about any damage resistance barrier.  So yes, it's irrelevant when it comes to the plasmor.  Any further fine-tuning, isn't going to make it anymore overpowered than it already is lol. 

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

What you have to understand is, it doesnt matter if the positives out way the negatives, a weapon can be very weak yet by making more negatives to the weapon, people will be more welcoming to have other of aspects of the weapon make up for it. Which fits my argument in negatives being used as an excuse to make something else more powerful. Arca plasmore however, buffing that weapon in any aspects is unnecessary unless something else is being taken away from the weapon.

 

Ok so why doesn't the aklex prime doesn't also shoot a mini-nuke, even though it has ridiculous recoil, slow reload speed, bad accuray, mediocre damage, and a MR15 requirement?  Why does the strun wraith have a 5s reload speed? 

Honestly dude. Your argument would normally hold weight in other games/situations, but in this case I honestly don't think it's valid. Especially with examples such as the arca plasmor; we even have kitguns and zaws now. I'm not asking for them to be nerfed, since players like you, do enjoy them (I even keep a catchmoon as a mini "oh sh*t button). But I would like more "mediocre" weapons to have more utility, and a better chance to compete with a "plasmor" or a "catchmoon" or the "ignis" in terms of overall performance. 

Better weapon handling wouldn't make "already OP" weapons, even more overpowered. But it would give "less OP" weapons, a chance to compete with those weapons. It would give players more incentive to check out other weapons besides the current "meta"

Edited by Maka.Bones
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16 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

It doesn't, because I don't like the arca plasmor. I don't enjoy using the arca plasmor, because I don't enjoy killing 10 enemies at once with a shotgun. Your argument doesn't apply for everyone

What are you even talking about? Im wrong because you dont like the arca? i Clearly included you not liking the arca in the quote you quotted, so youre not making much sense in using that as a reason as to why it doesnt support my argument as i explained how it does and you didnt. You just gave me a reasonless claim.

Thats like me responding to you by just saying "youre wrong because i like the arca plasmor". Like explain it and before you do, show me youre comprehending what im saying. If youre not comprehending for the love of god ask some questions instead of just saying the 1st thing that comes to the top of your head.

16 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

But this thread is about weapon handling. lol...

I started talking about how i like negatives being used as blah blah blah, which is a different topic. When i say we im implying me and you. You can be off topic in a thread so that sentence i quotted is pretty horrible reasoning

16 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Any further fine-tuning, isn't going to make it anymore overpowered than it already is lol. 

Maybe you only play against level 50 enemies or dont know what "further tunning" means. The weapon cant kill everything, if so go into an endurance mission and see if it will always kill everything forever, go and take down the tridolon with it and see how long it takes and how frustrating it is, use it on bosses and see how long it takes to kill them over using other weapons. The weapon compared to other great weapons at the moment does not make the weapon "ridiculously overpowered", a more fitting word would be average in that sense... try to make sure you know what i mean by ridiculously overpowered, we should be using the same definition of the word for good communication. Ask questions if you must.

16 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Ok so why doesn't the aklex prime doesn't also shoot a mini-nuke, even though it has ridiculous recoil, slow reload speed, bad accuray, mediocre damage, and a MR15 requirement?  Why does the strun wraith have a 5s reload speed? 

My argument is that the negative stats like recoil, bad accuracy, slow reload speed, and mediocre damage maked it's more welcome by everyone who likes the weapon to have more positives added to it. If de were to announce that they were buffing the weapon, its good and wanted because of the weapons NEGATIVES granting them the perfect EXCUSE to buff it............................ 

It doesnt shoot like a mini nuke because de didnt want it to. Aklex is a really old weapon, and prime variants are hardly too different from their orginal un prime varaint. This  however doesnt dispprove that there is rule for how powerful a weapon can be. For a weapon to be able to dispprove this, it would have to not have any negatives at all times meaning the weapon stays being the best weapon at EVERYTHING (and i mean everything that youd use a warframe weapon for), as its capable of doing everything better than others. It is when this is not true is when you can be certain that there is a limitation for how powerful a weapon is allowed to be, and negatives are being used as an excuse to buff different positive aspects of the weapon. This is NOT being used to keep it from not going UNDER the limitation (like the akle) as going under the limitation is fine, but over the limitation. 

16 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Better weapon handling wouldn't make "already OP" weapons, even more overpowered. But it would give "less OP" weapons, a chance to compete with those weapons

Like i said b4, i dont care for the idea. Weapon handling doesnt bother me to the point where i feel its needed. Plus i like the idea of of having negaitve stats for better positive ones.  This does not imply that im saying your views on weapon handling are wrong or bad... I just feel its something not as important for the game then other things that de could be working on... i can live with a 3-5 sec reload. Will mod for more reload speed if i cant.

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11 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

What are you even talking about? Im wrong because you dont like the arca? i Clearly included you not liking the arca in the quote you quotted, so youre not making much sense in using that as a reason as to why it doesnt support my argument as i explained how it does and you didnt. You just gave me a reasonless claim.

Thats like me responding to you by just saying "youre wrong because i like the arca plasmor". Like explain it and before you do, show me youre comprehending what im saying. If youre not comprehending for the love of god ask some questions instead of just saying the 1st thing that comes to the top of your head.

Your argument was that " would like the arca plasmor if it had the same weapon handling as the vectis" right?

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Well if that's what you mean, it's false. I don't like the projectile or AoE of the plasmor. If I pick a shotgun, I want a basic multi-pellet weapon with enough damage to kill whatever I aim at within 1-3 shots, reasonable reload, and reasonable fire-rate, 4-8 magazine size. I don't want flashy effects. I don't want to kill everything within that direction. I don't want a huge AoE. I don't want a plasmor, even if it had faster fire-rate, or faster reload, or a larger magazine size. Many people don't like/want those thingssince it makes the game too boring. If i wanted a nuke, i'd play mesa or saryn. (If you don't believe me, inspect my profile)

If your argument was "you'd like the arca, if the weapon damage & projectile shot more like the corinth" then it would no longer be the arca plasmor; it would be the corinth and you would be correct--except not everyone favors the corinth. I don't mind the weapon handling on the plasmor at all, what I do mind is that it kills enemies too fast for me. So no, not everyone would favor the same *single* one weapon. 

Of course weapon handling doesn't bother you enough, because the plasmor trivializes weapon handling.

 

P.S. I'm not asking for every weapon to shoot the same, have the same effects, or the same weapon handling, or the same projectile damage, or anything like that. Just for more customization options, or some sort of skill/use based specialization/progression. 

11 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Maybe you only play against level 50 enemies or dont know what "further tunning" means. The weapon cant kill everything, if so go into an endurance mission and see if it will always kill everything forever, go and take down the tridolon with it and see how long it takes and how frustrating it is, use it on bosses and see how long it takes to kill them over using other weapons. The weapon compared to other great weapons at the moment does not make the weapon "ridiculously overpowered", a more fitting word would be average in that sense... try to make sure you know what i mean by ridiculously overpowered, we should be using the same definition of the word for good communication. Ask questions if you must.

Are enemies in ESO/Arbitrations/Kuva Flood lvl 50? Of course it would be "average" when compared to other overpowered weapons;.Your baseline of "average" is already at the "overpowered" margin. 

11 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

My argument is that the negative stats like recoil, bad accuracy, slow reload speed, and mediocre damage maked it's more welcome by everyone who likes the weapon to have more positives added to it. If de were to announce that they were buffing the weapon, its good and wanted because of the weapons NEGATIVES granting them the perfect EXCUSE to buff it............................ 

It doesnt shoot like a mini nuke because de didnt want it to. Aklex is a really old weapon, and prime variants are hardly too different from their orginal un prime varaint. This  however doesnt dispprove that there is rule for how powerful a weapon can be. For a weapon to be able to dispprove this, it would have to not have any negatives at all times meaning the weapon stays being the best weapon at EVERYTHING (and i mean everything that youd use a warframe weapon for), as its capable of doing everything better than others. It is when this is not true is when you can be certain that there is a limitation for how powerful a weapon is allowed to be, and negatives are being used as an excuse to buff different positive aspects of the weapon. This is NOT being used to keep it from not going UNDER the limitation (like the akle) as going under the limitation is fine, but over the limitation. 

Like the Arca Plasmor, the Ignis, the Opticor, the Rubico, the Lanka, or the catchmoon? They already get dominantly used, meanwhile other non-nuke weapons keep getting ignored because they're too slow (except by players who want to focus more on skill-shots or more strategic gameplay, or people who just want to enjoy and experiment with different & creative ways to clear mobs/missions). So no, people wouldn't focus on more "OP" weapons, since they already have been. If anything, people would focus *less* on Op weapons, and would start looking more at the less-used, actually average weapons. 

If it's something that we gain through some sort of "progression system" (like a skill system, a focus system, a "weapon type" use system) it's something we need to earn & work for, so it shouldn't need a "negative" to be justified. It's just more customization options for us.

Idk man, i really can't agree about everyone flocking to the same "one" weapon since the vectis prime doesn't have many "negatives" and it's still not everyone's favorite. Like I said before, I would agree in other games, but i can't agree with this perspective with this game since it has so many uniquely different weapons. The plasmor, catchmoon, and ignis wraith already have better than ideal "weapon handling" specs, so it's not as if these could get anymore overpowered--plus they're already favorited by many other players. People are going to keep using the same things they're already using; my suggestion is just going to give us more options for late-game--it'll give s more versatility. But if people want more crits, or more damage, they're always gonna use the rubico regardless. If people want a really fast reloading magazine, good fire-rate for the sniper multiplier, and decent power, they'll use the vectis. If they want a boom cannon, they'll use a zarr or a tigris. 

You concern "seems to be" that if we had an "all around weapon handling buff" then everyone would use the same "meta weapon" because it would make something like an opticor too overpowered.... But people are already doing this with the opticor, the ignis, the plasmor, the catchmoon, the etc...

Adding more "weapon handling progression" wouldn't make many of those weapons much stronger though (it's why i'm suggesting things like a "faster reload" instead or "more damage"). But it would give *other* less-used, less popular weapons, more incentives/visibility to get used. There are already SO MANY weapons that get ignored simply because they need to be overly-modded for redundant reasons, and it removes much of the possible damage optimization--simply because they have poor weapon handling. 

So let's agree to disagree yeah?

11 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Like i said b4, i dont care for the idea. Weapon handling doesnt bother me to the point where i feel its needed. Plus i like the idea of of having negaitve stats for better positive ones.  This does not imply that im saying your views on weapon handling are wrong or bad... I just feel its something not as important for the game then other things that de could be working on... i can live with a 3-5 sec reload. Will mod for more reload speed if i cant.

You might feel different if the plasmor had slower fire-rate, a 2-4 round magazine, or a 5s reload--or if the game didn't have "nuke weapons.--since that "reload mod" would cost you some dear damage or mod capacity. But hey you disagree with me, and that's fine. We're both coming from different perspectives after all, but we both want a "skill progression" which is exactly the same thing I'm asking for here *shrug*

 

 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Your argument was that " would like the arca plasmor if it had the same weapon handling as the vectis" right?

No, toggle fire mate. Like the tiberon. And no im not talking about weapon handling, i said this already. The sooner you try to understand that maybe then it will make more sense cause this is wasting time man..

On 2019-07-22 at 5:50 PM, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Yea, i know, thats why i said that. It feeds my point about my favorite weapon arca plasmor is a playstyle negative to you. You cant use it in the way you wish, and if you could then the weapon becomes better than the vectics. The vectics may as well be forgotten. Instead, de decided to make it the ability to switch between different types of gunfire a negative for the

Pay close attention to the last sentence. The arca cannot beat the vectis at everything its used for if its not exactly the same with options to be used for something else. Cause that is the only way to remove the negatives from the arca that seperate it from the vectis, and make the weapon dominate. Which also means the weapon will be better than the "regular arca" btw.

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

So no, people wouldn't focus on more "OP" weapons, since they already have been. If anything, people would focus *less* on Op weapons, and would start looking more at the less-used, actually average weapons. 

You cant speak for everyone without actual good evidence for what youre talking about. Cause I thought part of the point of rivens was to bring back some weaker weapons cause some people wanted to use them, which is strong evidence against what youre saying. Fyi i like using the aklex from time to time, if it was better that weapon would certainly become one of my favorites. Love its appearance too.

"Your baseline of average is at the overpowered margin"

Yesss! It is! Thank you! I had to increase the baseline because when i was trying to say the arca would become ridiculously overpowered (more than overpowered) you said it already was ridiculously overpowered and i dont have the vocabulary to make it anymore clear that im talking about really really really overpowered so i increased the baseline of "average" to help you understand.

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

it's something we need to earn & work for, so it shouldn't need a "negative" to be justified. It's just more customization options for us.

Im confused by this, you cant possibly be saying weapons dont need to have a negative like annoyingish reload speeds to justify a change that increases reload speeds right??? Break what you said here down for me if you can or wish to

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Like I said before, I would agree in other games, but i can't agree with this perspective with this game since it has so many uniquely different weapons.

You say you cant agree, yet you saying this agrees with me..... U just seem to be struggling to identify what it called when one of the weapons is performing better than another in a certain game mode. You used the word "unique", a unique weapon always has things that set it apart from other weapons. And what is that thing, maka? I'll give you a hint, its because one of the weapons has something working negatively against it, that keeps it from performing as well at a certain task as another weapons. Same goes for positives. Think about this long enough because youre literally right there with understanding my argument as i see you still dont yet.

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

You concern "seems to be" that if we had an "all around weapon handling buff" then everyone would use the same "meta weapon" because it would make something like an opticor too overpowered....

Oh heavens no. That wouldnt make much sense, of course thats not my concern?? Hang on read this next quote from me

18 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Like i said b4, i dont care for the idea. Weapon handling doesnt bother me to the point where i feel its needed.

What that quote means is that im not against or with the idea for weapon handling. I dont fell its necessary, which doesnt imply i feel it would be overpowered. Dumping your weapon mags faster i could care less about. Please theres no need to assume anything else but what was said here. I assure you. "If it isnt broke dont fix it" kinda type of deal

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Idk man, i really can't agree about everyone flocking to the same "one" weapon since the vectis prime doesn't have many "negatives" and it's still not everyone's favorite

Yo.... you know why everyone isnt using the vectis. Its not that hard to figure out once you stop deeming the negatives of the weapon as irrelevant. When you do that is the moment it should become 10x more than obvious to you as to why it doesnt get picked often. It cant do things that other weapons can, which is called a negative. The weapons negatives are not irrelevant, the fact it cant shoot like the arca should be enough proof that its not irrelevant..... its almost a slap to the face type of proof. 

Also, there is tons of evidence out there of what happens when you give a player base a weapon that can do EVERYTHING better than other weapons so there should really be no reason for you to be so unsure of what will happen. Unless you still keep trying to count the negatives of a weapon as irrelevant when the positives overtake some of the weapons negatives then yea, i 100% understand how you are completely unsure that people will flock to one weapon....

"Adding more "weapon handling progression" wouldn't make many of those weapons much stronger though (it's why i'm suggesting things like a "faster reload" instead or "more damage"). But it would give *other* less-used, less popular weapons, moreincentives/visibility to get used. There are already

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

There are already SO MANY weapons that get ignored simply because they need to be overly-modded for redundant reasons, and it removes much of the possible damage optimization--simply because they have poor weapon handling

" You literally just said i was wrong about something i said earlier yet this quote says the same thing i said, ill break it down to help you because wow.... Make sure you agree with these questions before moving on because youve sermed to accidentally reveal you 100% agree with me. Poor weapon handling is a negative right? And you seem to want to get rid of the negatives in some way right? Now Thats called a buff am i right (earned buff)? A buff is a postive yes(a positive to the weapon)? So its because of the negative with the weapon that has made you become more welcome to having some sort of positive being added to it correct? Check this quote out and see how simular the two are excluding me being plural in the quote when talking about negatives.

18 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

My argument is that the negative stats like recoil, bad accuracy, slow reload speed, and mediocre damage maked it's more welcome by everyone who likes the weapon to have more positives added to it. If de were to announce that they were buffing the weapon, its good and wanted because of the weapons NEGATIVES granting them the perfect EXCUSE to buff it............................ 

Omit that word "maked", replace it with means. Thus supporting the negatives for positives argument that you said it didnt.. yet here you are using negatives of weak wrapons to justify the need for positives. 

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

You might feel different if the plasmor had slower fire-rate, 

Yes.. i most certainly would be more welcome to having more positives be added to the weapon if it had bigger negatives. Would i want it to be DE'S top priorty list? No, i have enough weapons to use and play with, finish making gauss or working on better graphics or something. I dont care for the weapon handling negatives. So you see, i agree with you again yet you still say this nonsense in your next sentence:

10 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

But hey you disagree with me

You wont pay any attention. Im not gonna agree to disagree, because, as ive pointed out, you agree with my logic. For some reason youre being a bit hypocritical. 

I usually try really hard to pinpoint problems yet after pointing out evidence of you showing a lack of attention or you being hypocritical. Im just about done. Lets not agree to disagree, but agree to drop it. Because i see you agree with me you just arent thinking of how your choice in words compare with mine in the slightest bit. With a bit of lack of questioning causing confusion. ☺

Edited by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII
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9 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:
15 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

it's something we need to earn & work for, so it shouldn't need a "negative" to be justified. It's just more customization options for us.

Im confused by this, you cant possibly be saying weapons dont need to have a negative like annoyingish reload speeds to justify a change that increases reload speeds right??? Break what you said here down for me if you can or wish to

No, I said" *IF* it's something that we need to earn & work for... then i shouldn't need a "negative" ..."(like the a skill progression of sorts, of minor handling buffs based on "weapon type usage")

P.S. I skimmed through it, and i'm only briefly answering anything that immediately pops out to me that I can clarify. I'm feeling sick so I won't be posting a full reply quite yet until I feel better. 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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